https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/09/in-the-united-states-russian-trolls-are-peddling-measles-disinformation-on-twitter/ (https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/09/in-the-united-states-russian-trolls-are-peddling-measles-disinformation-on-twitter/)
QuoteThe existence of a Russian disinformation campaign that could make Americans hesitant to vaccinate their children highlights something important about the Kremlin’s information war on the United States. Moscow’s goal has never been to advantage Republicans or Democrats. Instead, it is after a far bigger prize: the exacerbation of Americans’ distrust of one another and, in turn, the erosion of their confidence in society and the U.S. government.
A recent study from David Broniatowski, a professor at George Washington University, and his co-authors found that thousands of Russian accounts used to spread disinformation had seized on anti-vaccine messaging.
After combing through nearly 2 million tweets recorded between 2014 and 2017, the researchers found that Russian troll accounts were significantly more likely to tweet about vaccination than general Twitter users. They had turned to vaccines as a wedge issue in an effort to ramp up social discord, erode trust in public health institutions, and exacerbate fear and division in the United States.
...
This isn’t the first time Russian information warfare campaigns have focused on U.S. public health. One of the most successful Soviet disinformation efforts, codenamed Operation Infektion, set out to push a false narrative that the HIV virus had been created by the U.S. government at Fort Detrick, Maryland, for the explicit purpose of targeting black and gay people in the United States and abroad.
Operation Infektion’s first volley was a piece published in an English-language newspaper in India in July 1983. The arguments were then spread throughout the world through a series of KGB initiatives. By 1987, CBS News had covered the claim. Not only did this effort tarnish America’s reputation abroadâ€"and weaken the ability of the United States to work with foreign governments to address the HIV crisisâ€"but it also attempted to stoke Americans’ distrust in their own government.
And that gambit worked. In 1992, 15 percent of Americans agreed that it was definitely or probably the case that HIV was “created deliberately in a government laboratory.†The effect was particularly strong among one of the Soviets’ key targets: African Americans. A 2005 study by the Rand Corp. and Oregon State University found that more than 25 percent of African Americans who were surveyed considered HIV to be the product of a government lab.
Getting real sick of Russia's shit, tbh. A large part of the racial tension in the United States is also fueled by these bots (ontop of the legitimate reasons for racial tensions), and like the article points out that has been going on for decades.
(And yes, I realise a lot of this is retaliation for us doing the same/similar shit to them that I am sick of us doing as well... but as an American I clearly have a bias to be even sicker of their shit)
Sounds like Western/British COINTELPRO. Back in the day, the Russians were all 8 ft tall, invented everything, and put their pants on two legs at a time with that Russian dance the men do ;-)
So, there are no Western trolls, just Russian secret agents. Boris and Natasha perhaps?
Anti-vaccination movement has started relatively recently in Turkey and these people argue from American sources, events and statistics when questioned. (I'm not talking about the old 'it is a sin' opinion. It's a new group of people.) As it is mandatory in the country, they can't get their children into schools. Because parents are asked for a vaccination card. But it doesn't look very good for the future.
Not just anti-vaccination movement specifically, but American conspiracy theory culture affects a lot of cultures around the world. This is actually a part of this. Because the US media in every medium is louder than any other. English is very widely understood. I think American culture is very suitable to create conspiracy theories. Because the federal state is abnormally powerful, you can also make money from this. Understanding of Freedom is very different in the US. May be, people think US is 'the root of all evil', lol and that Americans would know about their state and government and that they can say it out loud. Flat earthers, moon landing hoax bullshit... . All these groups are related to American groups. So it is the conspiracy theory culture overall as I see it.
But then apparently, Russia has a serious vaccination problem itself.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2018/09/28/russia-has-a-vaccine-problem-a63017
Quote...In 2017, the Federal Center of Hygiene and Epidemiology reportedly determined that 48.7 percent of Russian children born in 2016 had not been vaccinated comprehensively and on the medically prescribed schedule.
As a result, Russian medical experts say the country struggles to maintain so-called herd immunity â€" the threshold percentage of the population that must be immunized for a disease to be kept at bay, generally considered to be between 92 and 95 percent â€" for diseases like diphtheria and measles, among others.
The latter, for instance, is making a resurgence: So far this year, Russia has seen a 13-fold increase, following a trend in Europe and in the United States. In August, the World Health Organization singled out Russia alongside six other European countries for having more than 1,000 cases.
This state of affairs has the Kremlin’s attention. In March, President Vladimir Putin said on national television he was considering taking measures because “it has become trendy not to vaccinate your kids.†...
QuoteBecause the US media in every medium is louder than any other. English is very widely understood. I think American culture is very suitable to create conspiracy theories. Because the federal state is abnormally powerful, you can also make money from this.
This actually made me curious about a bigger game-plan...
By destabilizing American society, and through our dominance of "world" (or most of it) media, you have the beneficial side effect of destabilizing all the Western bloc & it's allies. I wonder though what our cultural influence on countries like Russia, or more importantly, China is? While we tear ourselves and our allies apart... China keeps itself isolated and allows only what it wants in to it's population.
To use vaccinations... besides controlling the influence of the Anti-Vaxx movement in China the state also mandates that all it's population shale be vaccinated.
To me, it seems like a faux-win/win/win to all parties involved; at the lowest tier, the greedy benefit from conspiracy theories for their personal gain. The middleman, Russia, benefits in it's creation of turmoil amongst the West, diminishing their safeguards against Russian encroachment. And above them all, China sits back and consolidates more power while everyone else weakens themselves and focuses on their internal affairs rather than global influence. Of course at the end of it, there is really only one winner.
Xi Jinping has spent trillions of dollars in solidifying and expanding Chinese influence across the globe, and he ruthlessly and effectively manages a nation of of nearly 1.4 billion people. He clearly is an extremely shrewd man and most likely has surrounded himself with others nearly as cunning as him. He has clearly begun to demand that China become the center of the world again... and influencing the West to divide and tear itself apart would be very effective way of helping that come to pass.
Of course, 99% chance that is all just seeing shadows and jumping at them. But I am American... that is kinda our thing.
Quote from: Shiranu on May 05, 2019, 05:39:45 AM
To me, it seems like a faux-win/win/win to all parties involved; at the lowest tier, the greedy benefit from conspiracy theories for their personal gain.
I agree. Also, it looks as a stupid big game to me. How are they going to do it? It's already destabilised in many ways. It doesn't affect the country. It's too big. The scale is different as we say. People are not living on top of each other. One state is not like the other. It's fucking 50 countries.
So the US has an advantage these countries don't. Actually, no country has it, but the US. It's very young and heterogeneous, doesn't matter what the policies are. Not just 'diverse', I mean something else. You don't need to be born in the USA to be an American. However, that is not the case with Russia or China. You are Russian and Chinese, if you are Russian and Chinese. And the world is getting smaller and smaller.
And people continously create their own cultures doesn't matter how vapid, crazy and pointless in the US. Uncle Sam watches them as long as it is not a real threat. "Kids, play with anything you want, say-advocate anything you want; just behave and know your boundries or you won't even notice how fast and harsh I will correct it." LOL the moment anything becomes a real threat, noone will even notice it gone. Sometimes, I think even Americans don't get this, lol. Well, it's how good they are. Otherwise, you don't get to dominate the world.
That's why American culture is very easy to consume; export and easily accssible by anyone. It's for everyone. Not just for you, also for me to consume from over here. That's the design. From simple products to social media; from conspiracies, to certain groups, to entertainment...name it. That's how the country is managed, if you will. The fortress of capitalism. Is there any other way? (US also has the economical and military power to respond to a domestic crisis of any kind.)
How are they going to destabilise a society like this? So many choices, concepts, things, ways of being...I am not sure what does that tell you, but it is like that to an outsider. There are only certain scale of 'things' in Russia or China or anywhere else.
I am really not trying to shit on one and champion the other. It's the cultures of these countries.
For a plan like that to work, they need to collapse this American identity. LOL ?! How? Which one? From where? Despite of everything that has been going on, that's not gonna happen. There is no cultural influence or ideology to do that. Not just in the US, nowhere.
If they are upset that American culture is in Russia or China or anywhere else -and yes it is- then they need to find something to replace it. LOL It's everywhere with its good or bad. There is no escape from American culture.
QuoteI agree. Also, it looks as a stupid big game to me. How are they going to do it? It's already destabilised in many ways. It doesn't affect the country. It's too big. The scale is different as we say. People are not living on top of each other. One state is not like the other. It's fucking 50 countries.
That's something most foreigners (and most Americans) don't seem to understand.
QuoteLOL the moment anything becomes a real threat, noone will even notice it gone. Sometimes, I think even Americans don't get this, lol. Well, it's how good they are. Otherwise, you don't get to dominate the world.
From the inside looking in, it feels like that is much more that we grow bored with anything of importance, with a lasting message, than it being a case of the powerful shutting it down. Our attention span is measured more in months at best than years, decades.
QuoteHow are they going to destabilise a society like this? So many choices, concepts, things, ways of being...I am not sure what does that tell you, but it is like that to an outsider. There are only certain scale of 'things' in Russia or China or anywhere else.
I feel like that is exactly why it would be so easy to destabilise. First, we are inherently incredibly divided... from, as you said, at a state level we are essentially 50 countries, to a cultural level of regional differences and cultural/ethnic backgrounds, to an individual level of politics or conspiracy theories like vaccinations. The job of dividing us has already been done by anyone who wants to drive wedges into those divides, all they have to do is pour fuel on the fire and watch us tear at each others' throats.
QuoteFor a plan like that to work, they need to collapse this American identity. LOL ?! How? Which one? From where? Despite of everything that has been going on, that's not gonna happen. There is no cultural influence or ideology to do that. Not just in the US, nowhere.
America is useful divided, not collapsed. The Chinese economy is intrinsically linked to ours; as you said, we are still the (or the second) economic superpower of the world. If we fall, we take everyone with us... there is nothing to gain in that. But, keep us divided and our attention shifted and you can slowly but surely increase your power and influence over the rest of the world while we are distracted and unable to do anything about it.
QuoteThere is no escape from American culture.
Perhaps not, or not yet... but they can suppress it long enough for their culture to become the dominant culture, for their social networks to become the most used social networks.
Dominate cultures change... the British, French, Spanish, Arabs, Romans, Greeks, Egyptians can all attest to that. They all let their power slipped, and someone came in to replace them. It might not happen in our life times that Chinese becomes the dominate cultural power of the world, but it will be standing at least toe to toe with us. A few generations of them spreading their culture to Africa, the rest of Asia, even making inroads into Eastern Europe and having the economic dominance... and who knows?
Destabilization? So that is called elections. Because people might not vote the way the German Raj likes? Or is that how the Turkish Caliphate likes? You people (not unlike other people BTW) are so into political fantasy (Manchurian Candidate) that I wouldn't let such psychopaths vote for dog catcher.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSHaVH9HhfI
Your psycho bigotry toward Russians resembles the Protocols of the Elders of Zion
But they have to compromise their own culture to do that which has already happened by the way. Why do you think China wants to censor everything? Because they just want to cover their shit? Or Russia is trying to turn things the other way around. I am sure the US does the same thing, not the point. They want to keep it away as much as possible. Same thing going on where I live. It works up to a point, but then it turns the home culture into itself.
Because racing with the dominant culture of capitalism, requires adopting that culture. Nobody is out of that system, not even terrorist organisations. Capitalism does not respect culture in an original sense or value, it is just a product to sell. And if you cannot change the system -which is a joke- it is American culture with soya sauce in the end.
Or let's say, they managed to change it in their own terms. This time as I said above, it is Chinese culture for Chinese people.
See, American culture speaks to personal promotion, conformism, competition by using the greatest concepts of Western culture. What are those? Freedom. Civil rights. Ancient cultures are not based on any of those concepts.Doesn't matter if is real or not, it is not, it is commercial. But that's the system. It's the sales pitch and what you provide. China can provide, produce in massive numbers, yes, but what are those?
What is that China will create-produce so different, we will buy that will change our lives; that we will want to adopt Chinese way of life, culture and so promote, argue with its traditions, notions and terms? How are they going to make people own up to it? Just being against the US? Well, if they pitch that they need to deliver something to replace and again that's going back the beginning.
We do that with American culture, you know. We criticise it, we fucking scream at it, we bash it; we blame it for everything ffs, because it's also ours, not just yours. I know Americans don't get that, probably sounds weird and funny. People in the other countries, in the world don't get it either. They just do it, lol. But that's the thing, they do not need to.
I am not saying in any case, 'Oh American culture is the best', nowhere near, lol. I am saying, it brought a change long time ago and people adopted it even if they wanted or not. But then they got some things out of it.
What is it that I am getting out from Chinese or Russian cultures?
Quote from: Baruch on May 05, 2019, 09:40:50 AM
Destabilization? So that is called elections. Because people might not vote the way the German Raj likes? Or is that how the Turkish Caliphate likes? You people (not unlike other people BTW) are so into political fantasy (Manchurian Candidate) that I wouldn't let such psychopaths vote for dog catcher.
Your psycho bigotry toward Russians resembles the Protocols of the Elders of Zion
Make some sense.
Quote from: Shiranu on May 05, 2019, 05:39:45 AMI wonder though what our cultural influence on countries like Russia, or more importantly, China is?
I'm not entirely sure, but I do know that when "controversy" pops up in the US, it tends to spread to Canada, the UK, and Australia (among others, but those seem to be the main ones affected).
For example, when creationism "teach the controversy" peaked here, it got a following in Australia with Ken Ham and company. Though, come to think of it, Answers in Genesis was founded in Australia decades ago and then spread to the US, so it's anyone's guess who spread it to whom.
Like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEUQWpm360s
Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 05, 2019, 10:15:03 AM
Make some sense.
As a Turk, your country has had serious battles with Russia for centuries now. Your relationship to them must be entirely different than that of the US. Until 1946, the relationship between the US and Russia was mutually supportive (against GB). Do you have any cultural/historical context? Or just the latest application of literary criticism theory to historical events? Post-modernism is a literary criticism movement … that has recently been rebranded.
So you you fear Russia? If so, why? (I think you have reasons). I don't fear Russia. I have reasons. It is perfectly reasonable to me, depending on what Erdogan does, that the US and Russia will be allies again, as we usually are, and if necessary, with Turkey as an opponent. It is an entirely different problem for GB. Traditionally, GB is an enemy of the US. To me, Brexit means … retain Atlantic strategy of alliance with the US. Remain means … retain EU strategy of hostility to the US. As such, I see no reason to go to war for Merkel against Russia.
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 05, 2019, 06:27:47 PM
^ asking a turtle to do ballet
My turtle doesn't do ballet ;-)
Y'all accept the Chinese/Democrat propaganda, like the drones you are? I haven't forgotten who supported Al "Chinese" Gore in 2000. It is false flag. China and Russia are allies. I haven't forgotten Uranium One. The CIA is using Russia/China as good cop/bad cop … and maybe Russia/China are part of the deception. R & D support Russia/China as much as they can. All our candidates are Manchurian Candidates … bwahah.
Next y'all will be claiming that the KKK was a conspiracy by the Russian Czar.
US media, both conventional and Internet, are a megaphone for stupidity, 100x greater than Russian propaganda.
Quote from: Baruch on May 05, 2019, 11:34:53 PM
As a Turk, your country has had serious battles with Russia for centuries now. Your relationship to them must be entirely different than that of the US. Until 1946, the relationship between the US and Russia was mutually supportive (against GB). Do you have any cultural/historical context? Or just the latest application of literary criticism theory to historical events? Post-modernism is a literary criticism movement … that has recently been rebranded.
So you you fear Russia? If so, why? (I think you have reasons). I don't fear Russia. I have reasons. It is perfectly reasonable to me, depending on what Erdogan does, that the US and Russia will be allies again, as we usually are, and if necessary, with Turkey as an opponent. It is an entirely different problem for GB. Traditionally, GB is an enemy of the US. To me, Brexit means … retain Atlantic strategy of alliance with the US. Remain means … retain EU strategy of hostility to the US. As such, I see no reason to go to war for Merkel against Russia.
I'll just explain it with an example. But before that, I am not a 'Turk'. You have never met a Turk. I am just Turkish, lol. If you enjoy calling me Turk,that's OK. But you should know the difference.
This will sound pretty discriminating, but I don't care.
I don't know how to explain 'luggage trade' to Americans so, I'll just go on from my point. Did you know that there has been an immigration from Russia to Turkey? Esp. women? It started long time ago. I am not talking about the huge amount of women who comes over here for prostitution. It's not my place to judge their position. But the white female trafficking concerning slav women, esp. Ukrainian and Russian is a gangren wound, Russia doesn't care much about.
Women have no value in Russia. It's worse for lgbt groups. Russia is fucked up on any kind of human rights. They have this very similar culture to us. It took me years to realise that a lot of Russian women marry Turkish men, because Turkish men actually care about them with similar culture. And they couldn't get a better life. But which class of Turkish men. LOL that's the point.
Think about it like this. Russia is US; Turkey is Mexico and American women are going to Mexico to marry; to build a life; some are for prostitution. How does that sound?
Anyway, Russia will do anything to go down to Mediterranean, as they have done in history. They armed Armenians before, you know how that ended right?
So it is not fearing Russia. I don't like their culture. Esp. because they actually had an elightenment period and arrived here. Putin, Erdogan, Trump... they are all the same shit for me. They will do anything, not caring about any kind of balance as noone wants them in Mediteranean they won't be able. People just will pay with their lives. They are now. In many ways. They don't fucking care about their own to begin with.
Brexit is not gonna happen. And I actually started to think that they knew this.
So what I am talking about here is cultural emparialism. The one that worked. I realise that I speak with a tone of acceptance and it sounds like I suppoort it. No, not at all. It's just you guys see it so pink.
There are no choices. And I am trying to say that why would people choose Russia or China. What are they offering us? Of course the notions of freedom or equality is bollocks. But that makes a difference according which one is selling that bollocks.
Sorry, drunkenshoe. You are a mature, educated person. But like the rest of us, you don't understand anything. So much like a Parisian salon circa 1788. Enjoy hour historical tragedy as best you can, I will.
Please tell us about the salon culture of 18th century Paris, Baruch.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 07, 2019, 07:27:17 AM
Please tell us about the salon culture of 18th century Paris, Baruch.
Overly cultured, feminist, elite … totally oblivious to the Deplorables. If you were really Turkish, you wouldn't be reading German/French philosophy. Not saying that Erdogan is the best choice to lead Turkey.
Marie Antoinette should have said … Let the Muslim peasants eat Turkish Delight.
I know people who have read Reader's Digest all their lives then ended up with a better historical perspective and world vision than yours.
You see/use concepts, tendencies, movements, ideologies, historical characters, events... as ingredients of some sort of a meal. It's like American cooking. Just add. Add everything you can that sounds delicious at the moment. Veggies, meat, minced meat, sour cream, 3 sorts of mushrooms, beans, 4 sorts of cheese, and please don't forget the chicken broth and then put it on the potato puree; with bacon, butter and 2 sorts of cheese in it.
What are you talking about?
Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 07, 2019, 09:07:04 AM
I know people who have read Reader's Digest all their lives then ended up with a better historical perspective and world vision than yours.
You see/use concepts, tendencies, movements, ideologies, historical characters, events... as ingredients of some sort of a meal. It's like American cooking. Just add. Add everything you can that sounds delicious at the moment. Veggies, meat, minced meat, sour cream, 3 sorts of mushrooms, beans, 4 sorts of cheese, and please don't forget the chicken broth and then put it on the potato puree; with bacon, butter and 2 sorts of cheese in it.
What are you talking about?
You have read the actual Reader's Digest … the historical American one from days of yore? With homely Middle Class short stories and essays? Really? Yes, maybe you get your opinions from Habermas. So?
I wouldn't know as much about Turkish history than you of course, but potentially I could be at least as aware of the faults of elite European cultural snobbery as you. Paris doesn't give a baguette for Washington or Ankara.
The EU is the alliance between German political-economic hegemony and French cultural imperialism.
Finally. After some Marco Polo session... I was talking about American cultural imperialism and why it works. Compared to Russian and Chinese cultures.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 07, 2019, 12:12:55 PM
Finally. After some Marco Polo session... I was talking about American cultural imperialism and why it works. Compared to Russian and Chinese cultures.
OK ... so Europe so sad, they aren't even on the party invitation list?
I love traditional Chinese culture, as part of the smorgasboard. My ex and daughter watch Chinese/Korean dramas all the time. I love any culture. Maybe China should resume being China and stop trying to be an unemployed German immigrant to Victorian London? Being an American, I don't have a complex over the "ugly American". I do have a complex over the "ugly European" ;-)
Our multiculturalism doesn't legitimate the political-economics of our opponents. No Sharia here. I can have Mexican food any day ... but I don't have to invade Mexico or let them invade me. And I am OK with legal immigration. European multiculturalism is ... all men bad, all White folks bad ... because we are ashamed what we aren't Mahatma Gandhi.
Liking is not the point. Would you like to live in it? Own up to it? Raise your children in it?
Also, no, the Chinese culture you like is the commercials. Every foreign culture you like is filtered down through American culture. It's enjoying the exotic, you pink ass. Not enjoying the real, traditional cultures.
We got them through the same filter. As a part of American culture. Not from the source even though it's much closer in many sense and we have ancient relations.
Anime, even Buddhism is exported through America. Not from Japan or India. From the U. S. A. Do you get why I keep saying that you guys are living on the moon?
That's not multiculturalism, it is called cultural imperialism.
Baruch, please stop talking about Europe. You really know don't know anything about it.
You know nothing about America beyond European snobbery. Sorry to say that, but we all have our limitations. I probably couldn't bake a Turkish Delight if I tried.
So, turn off all contact outside of Turkey, and only have Muslim Brotherhood propaganda. Then Turkey will be safe from contaminating influences. Until Commodore Perry (USN) comes knocking at your door.
The idea of a Franco-German alliance ruling Europe brings forth tears of laughter... Neither have a history of native leaders. Napoleon came from Corsica, Hitler was Austrian.
Quote from: Cavebear on May 10, 2019, 01:54:21 AM
The idea of a Franco-German alliance ruling Europe brings forth tears of laughter... Neither have a history of native leaders. Napoleon came from Corsica, Hitler was Austrian.
You are correct, if only the EU founders had consulted you (or me). What is also funny, is why you would want the Southern tier in your group (Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece). That makes it an even more tragic clown car. People now realize that the EU shouldn't include E Europe either. It should be Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Sweden and Norway. Germanic only (Switzerland and GB are too independent).
Quote from: Baruch on May 10, 2019, 04:21:14 AM
You are correct, if only the EU founders had consulted you (or me). What is also funny, is why you would want the Southern tier in your group (Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece). That makes it an even more tragic clown car. People now realize that the EU shouldn't include E Europe either. It should be Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Sweden and Norway. Germanic only (Switzerland and GB are too independent).
My view of NATO is really what it was after WWII up to the Iron Curtain. With the successful integration of East Germany and maybe Poland. The other European nations are not settled democracies and do not fit well.
Both NATO and the EU tried to expand too rapidly and that has caused serious problems. Instead of saying "well, OK", they should have said "prove it".
Quote from: Cavebear on May 10, 2019, 01:54:21 AM
The idea of a Franco-German alliance ruling Europe brings forth tears of laughter... Neither have a history of native leaders. Napoleon came from Corsica, Hitler was Austrian.
What even is a "native" leader, particularly in Germany's case? Germany is several hundred different states combined into one, how do you decide which one is the most German? And Austria is just as much "German" as any of the other ones... even if it's not part of Germany.
Same for France... there are massive cultural differences between a Parisian, a Burgundian, a Lyonnais, a Corsican and an Alsatian... but all are French.
Or if you want to get even more culturally divided, look at Spain, Italy or Greece...
Quote from: Shiranu on May 10, 2019, 08:46:17 AM
What even is a "native" leader, particularly in Germany's case? Germany is several hundred different states combined into one, how do you decide which one is the most German? And Austria is just as much "German" as any of the other ones... even if it's not part of Germany.
Same for France... there are massive cultural differences between a Parisian, a Burgundian, a Lyonnais, a Corsican and an Alsatian... but all are French.
Or if you want to get even more culturally divided, look at Spain, Italy or Greece...
Leadership is determined by blood and iron. Prussia had destroyed Denmark 2 years before. Prussia destroyed Austria, and created the German Empire ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZFLHvlND_U
Superior training, and very superior rifles (much higher rate of fire). Later France got the same rough treatment. Germany was like Israel vs Arabs.
Hitler fulfilled this Bismark dream of unification. Of course there were many German immigrants in the Ukraine so ....
Under History section ... more info ...
Quote from: Baruch on May 10, 2019, 09:48:13 AM
Leadership is determined by blood and iron. Prussia had destroyed Denmark 2 years before. Prussia destroyed Austria, and created the German Empire ...
Superior training, and very superior rifles (much higher rate of fire). Later France got the same rough treatment. Germany was like Israel vs Arabs.
Hitler fulfilled this Bismark dream of unification. Of course there were many German immigrants in the Ukraine so ....
Under History section ... more info ...
You sure do worship dictators and armies to control governments. Leadership is NOT determined by "blood and iron". Control might be, but that is not "leadership". A lunatic with a gun in a small room may have "control", but that person is not a "leader".
Quote from: Cavebear on May 16, 2019, 10:11:28 AM
You sure do worship dictators and armies to control governments. Leadership is NOT determined by "blood and iron". Control might be, but that is not "leadership". A lunatic with a gun in a small room may have "control", but that person is not a "leader".
You worship primitive tribes (who also fight each other) and who end up on reservations or extinct?
I am being counter-narrative ... the Germans did nothing wrong, other than lose. They did lots of dumb and cruel things that led to a loss.
And I see nothing wrong with the German Empire under Bismarck. He invented social security first, long before FDR.
Quote from: Baruch on May 16, 2019, 10:23:47 AM
You worship primitive tribes (who also fight each other) and who end up on reservations or extinct?
I am being counter-narrative ... the Germans did nothing wrong, other than lose. They did lots of dumb and cruel things that led to a loss.
And I see nothing wrong with the German Empire under Bismarck. He invented social security first, long before FDR.
Modern Human history is of replacement. Not that I'm saying that is good, but you can't change the past. All you can do is try to effect the future. But 'Guns, Germs and Steel' explains a LOT!
I acknowledge your statement about "the Germans" in terms of Roman history and forward. If not for them, it would be almost XII o'clock.
Ah replacement ... so you are going to be Mormon, Catholic or Full Quiver Protestant ... and make lots of children, so that the mud-bloods don't inherit the Earth?
Quote from: Baruch on May 16, 2019, 02:14:56 PM
Ah replacement ... so you are going to be Mormon, Catholic or Full Quiver Protestant ... and make lots of children, so that the mud-bloods don't inherit the Earth?
Superior walk-overs. Some cultural clashes are SO one-sided that they aren't even "wars". Wars mean close battles. I don't "war" with squirrels or groundhogs for example..
Quote from: Cavebear on May 16, 2019, 02:56:02 PM
Superior walk-overs. Some cultural clashes are SO one-sided that they aren't even "wars". Wars mean close battles. I don't "war" with squirrels or groundhogs for example..
You gas them in your little death camps (traps)? Some people would prefer other mammals than the human.
Quote from: Baruch on May 16, 2019, 04:10:41 PM
You gas them in your little death camps (traps)? Some people would prefer other mammals than the human.
I would never gas a live animal.