Right now you are in this forum not for survival reasons but for improving your awareness and this effort improve your evolution so survival plays only a small part in human evolution.
That may not be the case for lower forms of lives.
Materialists only think one way about evolution.
Survival, survival and more survival and nothing much else.
Materialists don't get the fact that while evolution in lower form of lives is driven by mother nature or instinct evolution in humans is mainly driven by their own efforts because the free will that is absent in lower forms of lives is fully present in humans and that imply that evolution and devolution which is the opposite of evolution is there as well.
One more failing in materialism is the idea that animals that do not survive in the physical world are gone for ever (consciousness speaking).
They see that their body is dead or gone so they think that all of them is gone.
They got no evidence that they are gone for ever but material-physical evidence is the only thing that is important to them.
How sad.
(http://rationalia.com/z/bongsmileyny0.gif)
Good drugs gone bad.
Dude. You don't even know what evolution is. GTFO.
Watch. I'll prove it to you. Which of the following concerns the theory of evolution:
1. The Big Bang.
2. The origin of life on Earth.
3. A mutated animal or person being born.
[Spoiler=Answer]Trick question. It's none of the above. Theists continually confuse these things for evolution, showing their ignorance on the subject. Evolution is about changes to populations over time, or the origin of species. There are no "lower forms of life." That's your bias as a human talking. Every living species that exists today is just as highly evolved and adapted to its environment as every other species. Nearly every species has better sight, smell, taste, and hearing than us. What makes you think we're more highly evolved than them? And yes, evolution is all about survival, survival, survival. The entire mechanism for how evolution works is natural selection. WTF do you think that means, you hopeless moron?
Once again, you flip the burden of proof on your skeptics. It's not our responsibility to prove your baseless assertion wrong. It's your responsibility to provide evidence of you own claim. No evidence either way does not equal free reign to make up whatever shit sounds good to you. And that's the difference between materialists and superstitious nuts like you. We have the integrity to say "I don't know," while people like you prefer to say, "This is my guess, and you can't prove me wrong!"[/spoiler]
Y'all are using different semantics. Evolution as biological science vs as a synonym for change/development in general.
Same problem with "science" ... as modern scientific method vs current results of modern scientific method vs synonym (ancient definition) of knowledge in general.
This is because of people being different as individuals, but also as being from a whole different culture.
I dunno, if I 'see' that my body is dead or gone, I think I'd doubt that all of myself is gone, as I'm still there to think about it and see it.
I do doubt that when I see a dead friend, however, any consciousness of them is left. If I could see or experience any effect of their supposed Lazarus-consciousness, I suppose I'd reconcider.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 23, 2019, 02:31:41 PM
I dunno, if I 'see' that my body is dead or gone, I think I'd doubt that all of myself is gone, as I'm still there to think about it and see it.
I do doubt that when I see a dead friend, however, any consciousness of them is left. If I could see or experience any effect of their supposed Lazarus-consciousness, I suppose I'd reconcider.
We consider unusual things (if you experience them) to be "uncanny". But because of habituation, we fail to consider that usual things are "uncanny". This is probably an effective adaptation. If every morning you woke up, and it was like you had been kidnapped to a different planet, that might tend to break your day.
(https://i.imgur.com/tyhJFOw.gif)
Would it be any different if you woke up tomorrow as a different person, a person of S Asian or E Asian culture ... where you would not only maybe have a totally different language, but you actual culture would be signficantly different, and you would regard the language/culture/people you now are ... as Other?
Quote from: Arik on April 23, 2019, 10:45:12 AMThey got no evidence that they are gone for ever
Dead people have a strange habit of not reporting back.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 23, 2019, 11:28:42 PM
Dead people have a strange habit of not reporting back.
You die partially, every night, in non-REM sleep. Mostly we wake up
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 23, 2019, 11:34:41 AM
(http://rationalia.com/z/bongsmileyny0.gif)
Thanks for your comment but could you please tell me why you are posting in this forum and read post from other people?
What is the driving force that tell you to interact?
Quote from: Blackleaf on April 23, 2019, 12:32:09 PM
Dude. You don't even know what evolution is. GTFO.
Watch. I'll prove it to you. Which of the following concerns the theory of evolution:
1. The Big Bang.
2. The origin of life on Earth.
3. A mutated animal or person being born.
[Spoiler=Answer]Trick question. It's none of the above. Theists continually confuse these things for evolution, showing their ignorance on the subject. Evolution is about changes to populations over time, or the origin of species. There are no "lower forms of life." That's your bias as a human talking. Every living species that exists today is just as highly evolved and adapted to its environment as every other species. Nearly every species has better sight, smell, taste, and hearing than us. What makes you think we're more highly evolved than them? And yes, evolution is all about survival, survival, survival. The entire mechanism for how evolution works is natural selection. WTF do you think that means, you hopeless moron?
Once again, you flip the burden of proof on your skeptics. It's not our responsibility to prove your baseless assertion wrong. It's your responsibility to provide evidence of you own claim. No evidence either way does not equal free reign to make up whatever shit sounds good to you. And that's the difference between materialists and superstitious nuts like you. We have the integrity to say "I don't know," while people like you prefer to say, "This is my guess, and you can't prove me wrong!"[/spoiler]
Look BL.
If you really think that evolution is all about survival then why you try to get more awareness and learning by coming in this forum?
By coming in here you improve your awareness and as a consequence of that your evolution progress which in turn produce changes in your body as well so what survival has to do with evolution as far as humans evolution is concern?
Can't you see that you are totally lost in a sea of materialist fantasy?
It is in the nature of psychology, that no-one realizes their false consciousness. It is a mystery how anyone escapes a false consciousness. It is a mystery of mysteries, if one can do more than escape from one false consciousness, into another.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 23, 2019, 11:28:42 PM
Dead people have a strange habit of not reporting back.
I guess it must be a bit difficult to report back when you are reincarnated into a different body and the memory of previous lives is gone but again this is my opinion which by the way is also supported by thousand of people who have gone through an NDE.
Oh, of course all these people must all be lying, isn't it?
Quote from: Arik on April 24, 2019, 10:31:29 AM
I guess it must be a bit difficult to report back when you are reincarnated into a different body and the memory of previous lives is gone but again this is my opinion which by the way is also supported by thousand of people who have gone through an NDE.
Oh, of course all these people must all be lying, isn't it?
Subjective experience has no meaning for a materialist. It as if an external person, say your doctor, can say "you are alive" but you aren't allowed even an opinion on yourself, let alone a decisive observation of your own life.
Some people already believe they are dead, they have a Cotard delusion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotard_delusion). It's not about material reality so much as it's about how each of us interprets material reality.
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 24, 2019, 01:22:08 PM
Some people already believe they are dead, they have a Cotard delusion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotard_delusion). It's not about material reality so much as it's about how each of us interprets material reality.
Maybe they are dead, have you concidered that?
What? You think all of those people are lying?
:p
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 24, 2019, 01:22:08 PM
Some people already believe they are dead, they have a Cotard delusion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotard_delusion). It's not about material reality so much as it's about how each of us interprets material reality.
Material reality = anyone's interpretation is oil and water. Atoms have no interpretations.
Quote from: Arik on April 24, 2019, 10:31:29 AM
Oh, of course all these people must all be lying, isn't it?
Dunno about them, but you certainly are. You're showing off your invisible mansion while living in a box.
Quote from: Baruch on April 24, 2019, 02:41:00 PM
Material reality = anyone's interpretation is oil and water. Atoms have no interpretations.
We live in middle world, we don't experience atmos directly, at least not the same "rules" as atoms do. We only see light in 400nm (blue) to some 750nm (red) wavelength range, our tactile sensation doesn't go below some 90 μm length (which is quite a lot of atoms bundled together but still impressive). Whatever reality is, we have a
kind of access to it via our senses. Tools just happen to improve that.
Quote from: Arik on April 24, 2019, 10:19:05 AM
Look BL.
If you really think that evolution is all about survival then why you try to get more awareness and learning by coming in this forum?
Our big, efficient brains are what allows us to survive so effectively that we no longer have to struggle to provide for our basic needs, which allows us to focus on other things. I don't see your point. How does striving for knowledge contradict materialism, when it is that human curiosity which has led to our comparatively easy lives (ie our survivability)?
Quote from: Arik on April 24, 2019, 10:19:05 AMBy coming in here you improve your awareness and as a consequence of that your evolution progress which in turn produce changes in your body as well so what survival has to do with evolution as far as humans evolution is concern?
Holy run-on sentence, Batman!
Quote from: Arik on April 24, 2019, 10:19:05 AMCan't you see that you are totally lost in a sea of materialist fantasy?
I live in the real world, on a foundation of facts and evidence. You live in a fantasy world of faith, hearsay, and pseudoscience. Don't try to drag me down to your level.
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 24, 2019, 01:22:08 PM
Some people already believe they are dead, they have a Cotard delusion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotard_delusion). It's not about material reality so much as it's about how each of us interprets material reality.
I have never discarded the fact that hallucinations-delusions and other forms of brain failing may give way to all sort of mental problem however when you go through a mental process in which you remember very well even after many many years and in a sharp vision your experience then all mental failing have no place in this case that is why NDEs can not be compared to mental failings.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 24, 2019, 05:45:17 PM
Dunno about them..................
That is bizarre Hydra.
On one hand You say that you do not know but on the other hand you discount the fact that God exist which is exactly what they say.
Try to make up your mind at least. :surprise:
Quotebut you certainly are..........
Uhmm, lies imply that I would have some sort of interest in saying them.
Did I ever said that you may go to hell if you do not listen to me?
QuoteYou're showing off your invisible mansion while living in a box.
Actually yoga does the opposite.
It help you to get out the box which is the opposite of what materialism does to you.
(https://t4.ftcdn.net/jpg/01/43/54/61/500_F_143546163_RXfwWJH1fhte0s1VDRZRij8oldBVMMhe.jpg)
Quote from: Blackleaf on April 25, 2019, 01:58:52 AM
Our big, efficient brains are what allows us to survive so effectively that we no longer have to struggle to provide for our basic needs, which allows us to focus on other things. I don't see your point. How does striving for knowledge contradict materialism, when it is that human curiosity which has led to our comparatively easy lives (ie our survivability)?
Holy run-on sentence, Batman!
I live in the real world, on a foundation of facts and evidence. You live in a fantasy world of faith, hearsay, and pseudoscience. Don't try to drag me down to your level.
Gee, if it is our big and efficient brain the reason why we humans are so good then I suppose you also praise your vehicle for all good in life.
What about the driver BL?
Is the vehicle more important than the driver?
Can't you see that all your values are upside down by considering the brain as the real you?
Quote from: Arik on April 25, 2019, 11:33:52 AM
Gee, if it is our big and efficient brain the reason why we humans are so good then I suppose you also praise your vehicle for all good in life.
What about the driver BL?
Is the vehicle more important than the driver?
Can't you see that all your values are upside down by considering the brain as the real you?
You seem to have a very hard time concentrating. You've got that backwards. In the car/driver scenario, the person is the thing in control, not the car. That means that the driver is more like the brain in this analogy.
And you missed the point. The importance of our brain is that it has allowed ourselves to survive so easily that we no longer think about survival in our daily lives. We can focus on other things like entertainment, enlightenment, etc. You seem to be under the impression that we desire those things because they are somehow more important than our survival. If you really believe that, try offering a book to a starving person and see how they react. We only care about comfort, entertainment, and enlightenment when our basic needs are met.
Poor analogies. No, the brain is like the electronic ignition, the brain mostly takes care of autonomous activity like breathing and heart beating. The brain isn't the driver (in a regular car). The body (minus brain) is like the rest of the car. The AI in an autonomous vehicle, is what you want to compare yourself to. That is the consciousness in the brain. Without consciousness, you are just the scary uncle who has fallen asleep while driving. But AI is a fraud, autonomous vehicles are semi-out-of-control projectiles. More advanced than a baseball that has been hit by a batter, but still just a baseball. For the baseball to fly, there has to be a pitcher and a batter ... two humans. It doesn't count if you have a mechanical ball pitcher vs a mechanical hitter. That only distances the human interaction one level up. Somebody had to place those machines there and turn them on. At that point materialists appeal to infinite regress ... the Big Bang, which didn't have any humans in charge of it (except in Dr Who it is Dr Who who creates the Big Bang), is the cause of everything. Except, as discussed elsewhere, cause/effect is primitive philosophy ... reality is more complicated than billiards. And even billiards has to have at least one human being.
If you don't think like a caveman every day, then you are a soy boy, a bourgeois cuck. Civilization is always 3 days from collapse, even if you choose to be unaware.
If it is always three days from collapse, we have nothing to fear.
Leave it for tomorrow.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 25, 2019, 02:20:25 PM
If it is always three days from collapse, we have nothing to fear.
Leave it for tomorrow.
Better than fearing Nazis under your bed.
Quote from: Baruch on April 25, 2019, 07:44:50 PM
Better than fearing Nazis under your bed.
I suppose? Gosh, Baruch, is retirement not agreeing with you? You never needed much to launch an odd statement. But you seem to be going to extremes immediately as of late, in al threads I happen to read your posts.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 26, 2019, 01:11:30 AM
I suppose? Gosh, Baruch, is retirement not agreeing with you? You never needed much to launch an odd statement. But you seem to be going to extremes immediately as of late, in al threads I happen to read your posts.
Don't feel any different. With this string I am trying to massage the semantics. Two cultures speaking past each other.
It is the "EU is god" and the "Dems are god" people who are extreme. Idolatry, like primitive man eating Amazonians. The psychopathy is strong with this decade. We need more drugs, more protests, more STD. Then we will get our groovy back.
Quote from: Baruch on April 26, 2019, 03:17:22 AM
Don't feel any different. With this string I am trying to massage the semantics. Two cultures speaking past each other.
It is the "EU is god" and the "Dems are god" people who are extreme. Idolatry, like primitive man eating Amazonians. The psychopathy is strong with this decade. We need more drugs, more protests, more STD. Then we will get our groovy back.
I guess I could help with the protests... Even if it means getting out of my chair. You handle the drugs and the std's, 'Kay?
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 26, 2019, 04:26:12 AM
I guess I could help with the protests... Even if it means getting out of my chair. You handle the drugs and the std's, 'Kay?
But not yellow vests ... maybe red vests is more your color ;-)
Quote from: Blackleaf on April 25, 2019, 11:45:55 AM
You seem to have a very hard time concentrating. You've got that backwards. In the car/driver scenario, the person is the thing in control, not the car. That means that the driver is more like the brain in this analogy.
Wrong again BL.
The brain IS NOT the driver.
Something inside the brain is the driver instead and that is called consciousness or the I.
YOU, YOU, and YOU.
The fact that YOU reside inside the brain doesn't mean that you are the brain.
This is a point that materialists still haven't reach.
You guys will one day but in the meantime you still float in a sea of fantasies.
QuoteAnd you missed the point. The importance of our brain is that it has allowed ourselves to survive so easily that we no longer think about survival in our daily lives. We can focus on other things like entertainment, enlightenment, etc. You seem to be under the impression that we desire those things because they are somehow more important than our survival. If you really believe that, try offering a book to a starving person and see how they react. We only care about comfort, entertainment, and enlightenment when our basic needs are met.
More fantasies that by the way have nothing to do with the point we are discussing.
There is no questions that the body and the brain must be in top condition if we want to progress.
Even the Romans were saying ................mens sana in corpore sano.........which means................a healthy mind in a healthy body but again this doesn't means that the brain is you.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 26, 2019, 01:11:30 AM
I suppose? Gosh, Baruch, is retirement not agreeing with you? You never needed much to launch an odd statement. But you seem to be going to extremes immediately as of late, in al threads I happen to read your posts.
I also suppose that brother Baruch is a little bit too elaborate intellectually speaking but by being a theist he already got out the box so the retirement for him must be long long way away. :cheesy:
Quote from: Arik on April 26, 2019, 10:21:06 AM
Wrong again BL.
The brain IS NOT the driver.
Something inside the brain is the driver instead and that is called consciousness or the I.
YOU, YOU, and YOU.
The fact that YOU reside inside the brain doesn't mean that you are the brain.
This is a point that materialists still haven't reach.
You guys will one day but in the meantime you still float in a sea of fantasies.
More fantasies that by the way have nothing to do with the point we are discussing.
There is no questions that the body and the brain must be in top condition if we want to progress.
Even the Romans were saying ................mens sana in corpore sano.........which means................a healthy mind in a healthy body but again this doesn't means that the brain is you.
You know, when most people say, "you're wrong," they usually follow that with reasons they think the other person is wrong. You, on the other hand just say, "Nuh-uh!" Arguing with you is like arguing with a toddler. You're a hopeless idiot who thinks he's brilliant. Every time I talk to you, you remind me why I usually choose to ignore you.
Quote from: Blackleaf on April 26, 2019, 11:04:23 AM
You know, when most people say, "you're wrong," they usually follow that with reasons they think the other person is wrong. You, on the other hand just say, "Nuh-uh!" Arguing with you is like arguing with a toddler. You're a hopeless idiot who thinks he's brilliant. Every time I talk to you, you remind me why I usually choose to ignore you.
Why do I say that you are wrong?
Simple BL.
You still haven't got the clue that the consciousness can not possibly be the brain.
While the brain is made of matter the consciousness is not.
The consciousness is an abstract entity which is millions miles different from something made of matter so by not understanding this is quite clear that you are 100% wrong.
Quote from: Arik on April 26, 2019, 10:33:20 AM
I also suppose that brother Baruch is a little bit too elaborate intellectually speaking but by being a theist he already got out the box so the retirement for him must be long long way away. :cheesy:
Sometimes a metaphor has to be spelled out more accurately. Your model is I think correct, but is missing details. Blackleaf's is more detailed, but is assuming certain things that materialists always assume. Whatever anyone thinks about the mind, all we have is metaphors. Actual neural events, are just that, neural events. See psychophysics. But that isn't what either of you is talking about (neurology). In a manner of speaking, just like "cause/effect" and "explanation" ... all models of the mind/spirit, ancient or modern, are metaphors, because per Zen, ultimately all words fail. Words and reality are incommensurable. Only a very small part of reality relates to words (thought, speech, writing), which are instrumentalities for something that is ineffable.
Quote from: Arik on April 26, 2019, 11:33:07 AM
Why do I say that you are wrong?
Simple BL.
You still haven't got the clue that the consciousness can not possibly be the brain.
While the brain is made of matter the consciousness is not.
The consciousness is an abstract entity which is millions miles different from something made of matter so by not understanding this is quite clear that you are 100% wrong.
Exactly. As many an ancient pointed out, thought isn't material (though one Greek tought it was tiny gas like atoms). Turns out, electrical impulses in the nervous tissue, is like what that Greek thought. The electron is actually the ancient Greek word for "amber" which was first used by Thales to show electrostatic phenomena. Science didn't catch up for another 2300 years. But I agree that electrons or their movement isn't the same as mind/spirit, anymore than the electron motion in a radio receiver is the same as music.
But for a materialist, nothing is ineffable, per Democritus, there are only tiny indivisible particles and their movement (which did solve an early philosophical conundrum regarding "change"). For them to even recognize your point, they have to step outside their fundamental Democritean assumption. Which is as hard for people in general, as it was for geometricians to realize that non-Euclidean geometry was rational. Atheists are not skeptics in general, just skeptics of theism, religion or both. Their lack of skepticism regarding politics shows they are mere mortals ;-)
The modern move from materialism to physicalism (particles plus fields) doesn't change the conundrum ... though starting with Galileo ... the idea of "fields" was woo-woo, and Newton was forced to accept the idea, subsequently developed by Coulomb and Henry. Today we model empty space-time as a sea of virtual particles, we are back to the plenum of Descartes, though more like the vacuum of Toricelli. A kind of compromise between Democritus and Descartes, thanks to Heisenberg and Dirac. Though now the field is primary and the particle is secondary (a quantum of the field, the field not generated by the particle).
He posted a 'think outside the box'.
Before anyone can think outside the box they first need to know what's inside the box.
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 30, 2019, 05:49:44 PM
Before anyone can think outside the box they first need to know what's inside the box.
To bad nobody knows. They mistakenly think they are badly programmed bio-computers ;-)
Quote from: Blackleaf on April 26, 2019, 11:04:23 AM
You know, when most people say, "you're wrong," they usually follow that with reasons they think the other person is wrong. You, on the other hand just say, "Nuh-uh!" Arguing with you is like arguing with a toddler. You're a hopeless idiot who thinks he's brilliant. Every time I talk to you, you remind me why I usually choose to ignore you.
The average intelligence of the posts does go up markedly when you can't see his anymore.
Quote from: trdsf on April 30, 2019, 08:23:43 PM
The average intelligence of the posts does go up markedly when you can't see his anymore.
He functions for this board as Faux News does for people who watch 'news'.
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 30, 2019, 08:45:14 PM
He functions for this board as Faux News does for people who watch 'news'.
trdsf commenting on Blackleaf commenting on Arik. Up your game or go back to Start.
Quote from: Baruch on April 30, 2019, 08:49:26 PM
trdsf commenting on Blackleaf commenting on Arik. Up your game or go back to Start.
No shit, Charlie!! And I don't think you are even in the game.
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 30, 2019, 11:04:39 PM
No shit, Charlie!! And I don't think you are even in the game.
Then I don't understand your past post (which copied my entry). Incoherence isn't new hear, maybe intoxicants either ;-)
We did up our game, now up yours! :-P