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Science Section => Science General Discussion => Physics & Cosmology => Topic started by: Unbeliever on April 10, 2019, 04:09:24 PM

Title: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Unbeliever on April 10, 2019, 04:09:24 PM
Quote
The Event Horizon Telescope Collaboration observed the supermassive black holes at the center of M87 and our Milky Way galaxy (SgrA*) finding the dark central shadow in accordance with General Relativity, further demonstrating the power of this 100 year-old theory.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_GVbuddri8



This is pretty cool, I hope they can get even better images down the road.
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Baruch on April 10, 2019, 08:48:29 PM
Now you can see, literally, where all your tax money has gone ;-)
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: PopeyesPappy on April 10, 2019, 10:29:33 PM
This is indeed pretty cool stuff. I remember making a thread here about the Event Horizon Telescope project several years ago when they were hoping to catch a glimpse of Sagittarius A as a cloud of gas and dust was headed it's way. That event didn't pan out for them, but I am really glad to see they eventually got it to work.
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: trdsf on April 10, 2019, 11:16:43 PM
At 3:40, when they explained how they connected the eight telescopes, that was what blew my mind.  Just imagine the discoveries that could be made if science budgets weren't funded only grudgingly and sparingly.
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Baruch on April 11, 2019, 03:46:51 AM
At 3:40, when they explained how they connected the eight telescopes, that was what blew my mind.  Just imagine the discoveries that could be made if science budgets weren't funded only grudgingly and sparingly.

More backdrops for scifi TV shows.
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Baruch on April 11, 2019, 03:47:49 AM
This is indeed pretty cool stuff. I remember making a thread here about the Event Horizon Telescope project several years ago when they were hoping to catch a glimpse of Sagittarius A as a cloud of gas and dust was headed it's way. That event didn't pan out for them, but I am really glad to see they eventually got it to work.

When doing hard things, we often don't get it right the first time (Hubble mirror), but given grit and ability and resources, keep tweaking until we do get it right.
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on April 11, 2019, 10:50:00 AM
At 3:40, when they explained how they connected the eight telescopes, that was what blew my mind.  Just imagine the discoveries that could be made if science budgets weren't funded only grudgingly and sparingly.
A virtual telescope the size of the Earth has been done for years. Computing power is the only limit now.
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Baruch on April 11, 2019, 12:23:05 PM
A virtual telescope the size of the Earth has been done for years. Computing power is the only limit now.

I think originally done with radio waves, not at shorter wavelengths.  But still amazing computer power.  Basically integrating multiple sources with fourier transforms and filtering.  Good multidimensional fourier transforms are not trivial calculations.
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: drunkenshoe on April 11, 2019, 12:31:07 PM
It's so cool. My heart beat faster for a few secs watching the feed. We saw this in our life time! I wish Hawking could have seen it too. Also, as it is said above, the telescope system is mind blowing. But then mine is an easy one to blow.       

Thanks to Uncle Albert and Uncle Stephen.   

Instant comments everywhere around in various languages were 'the one ring!' and 'he was right, again'. LOL
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Shiranu on April 11, 2019, 05:35:16 PM
https://people.com/human-interest/katie-bouman-scientist-helped-take-black-hole-photo/

It is important I think to learn from our past mistakes and give her the credit she deserves now rather than waiting 50 years after her death to be like, "Oh, right, she was pretty important."

Bouman is a 29-year old computer scientist who graduated from MIT, works at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics and spent the last 6 years of her life (starting when she was a grad. student) developing the algorithm that made this picture possible.

While obviously the entire crew deserve credit for making this happen, even amongst them her work stands out.
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on April 12, 2019, 06:09:03 AM
It's so cool. My heart beat faster for a few secs watching the feed. We saw this in our life time! I wish Hawking could have seen it too. Also, as it is said above, the telescope system is mind blowing. But then mine is an easy one to blow.       

Thanks to Uncle Albert and Uncle Stephen.   

Instant comments everywhere around in various languages were 'the one ring!' and 'he was right, again'. LOL
(https://i.imgur.com/MjYmdye.jpg)
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Baruch on April 12, 2019, 12:37:05 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rflupY5Aa-Q

A good video of the genesis of this groundbreaking result.
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Cavebear on April 18, 2019, 08:25:49 AM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_GVbuddri8



This is pretty cool, I hope they can get even better images down the road.

Science marches on...
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Cavebear on April 18, 2019, 08:36:03 AM
Science marches on...
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Baruch on April 18, 2019, 10:40:57 AM
Like army ants?
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Cavebear on April 18, 2019, 01:14:56 PM
Like army ants?

Nope, staggering and tripping all the way choosing only what makes sense.
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Unbeliever on April 18, 2019, 01:24:53 PM
Like army ants?

More like Langston's ant (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X-gtr4pEBU).
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Cavebear on April 18, 2019, 01:33:12 PM
More like Langston's ant (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X-gtr4pEBU).

I have enough ants in the house.  But I do watch them (before acting as a deity and stomping them).  They are relatively random when not following a scent trail left by others.  They do find food.

If I did that in a grocery store, I would end up with broccoli twinkies covered in maple syrup hot pepper sauce...

Hurray for taste buds! And I recognize the cultural assumptions in that (perfectly good calories there).
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: trdsf on April 19, 2019, 01:18:19 AM
More like Langston's ant (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X-gtr4pEBU).
I have never heard of these before.  I will have to find me a generator to play with.  Cellular automata are endlessly fascinating.  :)
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Unbeliever on April 19, 2019, 01:24:14 PM
I've got a good Langton's Ant app on my phone, it's really amazing how very simple rules can lead to very complex behavior and structures. Howard Bloom, in The God Problem: How a Godless Cosmos Creates (https://www.howardbloom.net/the-god-problem-how-a-godless-cosmos-creates/), says that the universe has been iterating simple rules for billions of years, which have resulted in the complex structures we see and are made of.

In fact, that's where I got the quote in my sig.

Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Baruch on April 19, 2019, 03:11:16 PM
The complex things from simple rules is very interesting, and leads to a "god of the gaps" once again.  But there is always one more gap beyond the present closure.
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Unbeliever on April 19, 2019, 03:51:01 PM
I don't see how it leads to a "god of the gaps" - can you clarify that?
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Baruch on April 19, 2019, 04:18:45 PM
I don't see how it leads to a "god of the gaps" - can you clarify that?

A mathematical limit/approximation ... 3.14, 3.141, 3.1415, 3.14159 etc ... there is a limiting series of rational numbers, but you don't get Pi itself, that takes an infinite long decimal number.  The difference between any rational number (as approximation) and its related algebraic (square root of two) or transcendental number (Pi) is always non-zero.  Limits of course are also used in Calculus.

There is the argument, in atheism, of the "god of the gaps" ... that as naturalism is clarified and quantified, that we get closer and closer to the "truth".  But in both cases, in a practical sense we can never arrive.  Physics isn't limited to rational numbers.  Not even limited to real numbers (see complex numbers).  We accept on faith (if you are a lay person) that the final elimination of the "god of the gaps" is achievable after infinite effort.  This happens all the time with hard math, even with real numbers (one dimensional).  Many infinite series used in say classical physics, let alone quantum physics, don't converge nicely.  Pi doesn't converge easily, but there are numerical formulas what are even worse.

Anyway, this really isn't about theology.  In math, sometimes a real limit can be proven, but we don't have a means of calculating it (non-constructive proof), and sometimes we do have a means of calculating it (constructive proof).  Pi falls into the later category.  As a practical matter, having Pi to seven digits is sufficient for every engineering problem.  Last month using computers, Pi is calculated to 9 trillion digits.  For some nasty numbers (called normals) it is very hard to calculate even the first digit.
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Unbeliever on April 19, 2019, 07:56:05 PM


Quote
The image of M87's supermassive black hole released by the Event Horizon Telescope on April 10th 2019 is not just a pretty picture. Here I run down 5 reasons why we care about this result and what more it can help us understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28PEgYQ1O0Q
Title: Re: First Images of Black Holes!
Post by: Baruch on April 19, 2019, 09:06:20 PM
https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/review/dr-marc-sun/black-hole-sun.html

Size comparison, if the Sun were compressed to black hole size, it would be less than 6 km across, which is less distance than many people drive to go shopping.