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Humanities Section => Philosophy & Rhetoric General Discussion => Topic started by: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 12:39:32 AM

Title: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 12:39:32 AM
A recent comic strip had a character saying "I have been drawn to the atheistic concept of the non-existence of free will and that man is hopelessly compelled by instinct and the laws of physics”.

This confused me.  I consider that atheism involves free will and that theism does not.  Yet the person who writes this strip seems rational and thoughtful.  I think, being free of any deistic control, that I have free will.  And I don't agree with ideas that I am all cellular response prior to actual thought. 

Can anyone explain this apparent discrepancy?
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Plu on January 30, 2019, 01:49:00 AM
There are people who believe and do not believe in free will on all sides. All this quote shows is what camp the comic's writer is in and how little they know about atheism. (Or how little they pretend to know about it to pander to people who think atheism is a bad thing). Especially considering that's a really weird thing to say, although that might just be because it's in a comic book.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Mr.Obvious on January 30, 2019, 01:58:23 AM
Yeah Cave. While atheism doesn't automatically lead one to not believing in free will, you'll find both Camps in theists and atheists alike.

We had a long conversation in a thread on this forum that bordered on just that. It was about randomness and  control, free will and Some other stuff. I think i mentioned there that i don't believe in 'actual' free will, though it depends on what level you look at it.

If you want, i could try to make my point clear again. Be warned though, last you said was you concluding that i wasn't an atheist but a deist. (While i upheld it was because i was a materialist.)
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 02:02:25 AM
Quote from: Plu on January 30, 2019, 01:49:00 AM
There are people who believe and do not believe in free will on all sides. All this quote shows is what camp the comic's writer is in and how little they know about atheism. (Or how little they pretend to know about it to pander to people who think atheism is a bad thing). Especially considering that's a really weird thing to say, although that might just be because it's in a comic book.

Well, it is a daily comic strip, not a comic book, but I understand your point.  The strip often involves thoughtful ideas, so the author isn't stupid.  But I agree it is hard to tell if he is pandering to an audience or stating his real thoughts or even challenging the readers to think about some questions. 

But this one was somewhat out of the normal thoughts he suggests and I was surprised.  I would even consider that, since he has a son and another co-writer involved, it might be that "they" went outside the normal boundaries of the characters.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 02:10:56 AM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 30, 2019, 01:58:23 AM
Yeah Cave. While atheism doesn't automatically lead one to not believing in free will, you'll find both Camps in theists and atheists alike.

We had a long conversation in a thread on this forum that bordered on just that. It was about randomness and  control, free will and Some other stuff. I think i mentioned there that i don't believe in 'actual' free will, though it depends on what level you look at it.

If you want, i could try to make my point clear again. Be warned though, last you said was you concluding that i wasn't an atheist but a deist. (While i upheld it was because i was a materialist.)

Eliminating the double negative says that you think that atheism leads to free will, while theism requires that one doesn't (If a deity knows what you will do, you don't have it). 

Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Mr.Obvious on January 30, 2019, 02:23:05 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 02:10:56 AM
Eliminating the double negative says that you think that atheism leads to free will, while theism requires that one doesn't (If a deity knows what you will do, you don't have it).

No Cave. If we're going to do this, you're going to have to refrein from telling me what i think and claim. That's what you did last time.
Do you want to understand the point? Or do you just want to point out why it is wrong?

Theism does not lead you to believing in free will. Atheism does not lead you to not believing in free will.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 02:41:58 AM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 30, 2019, 02:23:05 AM
No Cave. If we're going to do this, you're going to have to refrein from telling me what i think and claim. That's what you did last time.
Do you want to understand the point? Or do you just want to point out why it is wrong?

Theism does not lead you to believing in free will. Atheism does not lead you to not believing in free will.

First, stop the double negatives.  It is both annoying and logically uninformative.  I just eliminate the 2 negatives and get a positive statement.  It only causes confusion to no purpose.

Second, consider the following:

1.  I will always state what I think someone else means.  That reflection indicates that I've read what a person has said and that I have thought about it.
2.  If my understanding is inaccurate, state why.
3.  If anyone deliberately makes their comment difficult to parse, ignoring it is appropriate.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Plu on January 30, 2019, 02:58:48 AM
There's no double negative in "atheism doesn't automatically lead one to not believing in free will", the two negatives refer to different concepts.

You can't get rid of them, it's just difficult to parse because it's a complicated concept. I'm not seeing any way to make it easier to read.

Although maybe this can help? The sentence is read like this:

NOT( atheism automatically leads to NOT (free will))

Eliminating both negatives leads to changing the meaning of the "atheism automatically leads to" part, because that only has a single negative.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Mr.Obvious on January 30, 2019, 03:48:55 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 02:41:58 AM
First, stop the double negatives.  It is both annoying and logically uninformative.  I just eliminate the 2 negatives and get a positive statement.  It only causes confusion to no purpose.

Second, consider the following:

1.  I will always state what I think someone else means.  That reflection indicates that I've read what a person has said and that I have thought about it.
2.  If my understanding is inaccurate, state why.
3.  If anyone deliberately makes their comment difficult to parse, ignoring it is appropriate.

Pelase see Plu's response.

Also, if your goal is to understand something: you can ask if what you understand the other's position to be, is correct. You on the other hand tend to say, at least in these conversations: you believe X, but that's flawed because of 'this and that'. Rather than: you mean 'X'?
And that tends to slow down the actual conversation because it's 'Y' more oft than not. Or it was, last time, at least.

I understand that we stand in radically different camps on this question of free will. That's why if we're going to have a significan conversation, we need to go in with the mindset of trying to understand the other's argument. Not with the idea of beating it.

But let me try this. Not less complicated imho, but here goes:
Atheism and theism don't lead you to a certain opinion on the existance of free will. Not pro, nor con.

So we haven't even started the real conversation and we're already entangled :)
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 04:36:30 AM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 30, 2019, 03:48:55 AM
Pelase see Plu's response.

Also, if your goal is to understand something: you can ask if what you understand the other's position to be, is correct. You on the other hand tend to say, at least in these conversations: you believe X, but that's flawed because of 'this and that'. Rather than: you mean 'X'?
And that tends to slow down the actual conversation because it's 'Y' more oft than not. Or it was, last time, at least.

I understand that we stand in radically different camps on this question of free will. That's why if we're going to have a significan conversation, we need to go in with the mindset of trying to understand the other's argument. Not with the idea of beating it.

But let me try this. Not less complicated imho, but here goes:
Atheism and theism don't lead you to a certain opinion on the existance of free will. Not pro, nor con.

So we haven't even started the real conversation and we're already entangled :)

I think understand the point Plu tried to make, but I disagree.  Cogito Ergo Sum, and all that.

But what I don't understand is the idea that atheism implies no free will OR that theism CAN offer it.  Theisms suggest to me that there is a controlling power that "knows all sees all and controls all" (or it isn't a deity) and that the lack of such a being means that there is not a controlling power and we are on our own and can make decisions for ourselves with no deistic pre-understanding or control over what we think.

So, OK, suggest to me how an intelligent being does not have free will.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Plu on January 30, 2019, 04:49:28 AM
QuoteSo, OK, suggest to me how an intelligent being does not have free will.

The simplest version of the argument is "If free will does not exist, an intelligent being cannot have it.".

You seem to imply that an intelligent being must automatically have free will, but then that requires that we need to prove that humans are genuinely intelligent and not just pretending in the same way that computers (which you probably think don't have free will?) can imitate some forms of human intelligence.

Alternatively, suggest to me how a rock does not have free will. That might shed some light on what you mean with "intelligence" and "free will".
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 05:02:46 AM
Quote from: Plu on January 30, 2019, 04:49:28 AM
The simplest version of the argument is "If free will does not exist, an intelligent being cannot have it.".

You seem to imply that an intelligent being must automatically have free will, but then that requires that we need to prove that humans are genuinely intelligent and not just pretending in the same way that computers (which you probably think don't have free will?) can imitate some forms of human intelligence.

Alternatively, suggest to me how a rock does not have free will. That might shed some light on what you mean with "intelligence" and "free will".

The assumption that Free Will does not exist because Free Will does not exist is a non-starter.  A feature of intelligence is thought and thought suggests Free Will; otherwise it is not actually thought.

I think the question of human thought is mostly settled these days.  The mere asking if we have it seems to answer the question.

I agree that computers (as exist today) do not have free will.  Whether they are GETTING there is an open question, but they don't have it yet.

A rock does not have Free Will in any sense, lacking an ability to direct its actions in any way.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Plu on January 30, 2019, 05:10:19 AM
QuoteThe assumption that Free Will does not exist because Free Will does not exist is a non-starter.

It's the reverse of "Free will exists because intelligent beings must have free will and we are intelligent", that's also assuming humans are "intelligent", but I'm not sure what you mean with that.

QuoteA feature of intelligence is thought and thought suggests Free Will; otherwise it is not actually thought.

What is the difference between a thought with free will and a thought without free will?

QuoteA rock does not have Free Will in any sense, lacking an ability to direct its actions in any way.

Alright. So what about an autonomous car? That has the ability to direct its own actions, yet does not have free will according to you?
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 05:23:22 AM
Quote from: Plu on January 30, 2019, 05:10:19 AM
It's the reverse of "Free will exists because intelligent beings must have free will and we are intelligent", that's also assuming humans are "intelligent", but I'm not sure what you mean with that.

What is the difference between a thought with free will and a thought without free will?

Alright. So what about an autonomous car? That has the ability to direct its own actions, yet does not have free will according to you?

If humans are not intelligent and lack Free Will, then there is no reason I should pay attention to anything you post since (according to you) there is no intelligence involved by either of us and both of us should stop posting.  Please stop first.  ;)

Evidence (such as scientific exploration) suggests to me that humans are intelligent.  I can ask how we evolved.  I can ask how horses evolved.  Horses cant ask how they evolved.

A thought with Free Will is actually a thought.  There can be no thought without Free Will. 

An autonomous car is programmed by intelligence.  It has none of its own.  If you tell an autonomous car that a divided line means a safe route, it will follow the divided line off a cliff if Wile E Coyote paints the road that way.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Plu on January 30, 2019, 05:40:18 AM
QuoteIf humans are not intelligent and lack Free Will, then there is no reason I should pay attention to anything you post since (according to you) there is no intelligence involved by either of us and both of us should stop posting.  Please stop first.  ;)

If humans are not intelligent and lack Free Will, I have no ability to decide whether I'll stop posting, so that won't change much. (You're even assuming I'm a human being and not some clever script pretending to be a human, in which case I might actually lack free will as you're describing it.)

QuoteA thought with Free Will is actually a thought.

But then what is a though without free will? "Not a thought" doesn't really narrow it down much. What is a thing that feels and acts like a thought, but isn't because it lacks free will?

QuoteAn autonomous car is programmed by intelligence.  It has none of its own.

This seems to be an assertion, more than an argument.

QuoteIf you tell an autonomous car that a divided line means a safe route, it will follow the divided line off a cliff if Wile E Coyote paints the road that way.

I sure hope not! That would lead to disaster when such a car comes across a sinkhole, collapsed bridge, or other unexpected obstacle. But they can actually deal with those. The whole difficulty with building autonomous vehicles is actually their needed ability to adapt to unforeseen things happening on the road. They're good enough that they react to situations faster than humans can, and sometimes even react to things that humans don't even notice. (But that, on later analysis, certainly seem to make sense and were smart choices)
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 06:35:38 AM
Quote from: Plu on January 30, 2019, 05:40:18 AM
If humans are not intelligent and lack Free Will, I have no ability to decide whether I'll stop posting, so that won't change much. (You're even assuming I'm a human being and not some clever script pretending to be a human, in which case I might actually lack free will as you're describing it.)

But then what is a though without free will? "Not a thought" doesn't really narrow it down much. What is a thing that feels and acts like a thought, but isn't because it lacks free will?

This seems to be an assertion, more than an argument.

I sure hope not! That would lead to disaster when such a car comes across a sinkhole, collapsed bridge, or other unexpected obstacle. But they can actually deal with those. The whole difficulty with building autonomous vehicles is actually their needed ability to adapt to unforeseen things happening on the road. They're good enough that they react to situations faster than humans can, and sometimes even react to things that humans don't even notice. (But that, on later analysis, certainly seem to make sense and were smart choices)

Paragraph 1:  THat's your concern, not mine.

Paragraph 2:  A golem?  Seriously, not a functioning human.  Humans (undamaged) think.

Paragraph 3:  It IS an a priori statement.  An axiom. 

Paragraph 4:  I have a robotic vacuum cleaner that can avoid falling down the stairs.  A car that doesn't hit other cars is just a programmed robot.  That does not mean it is "intelligent".

Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Plu on January 30, 2019, 06:56:23 AM
I don't think there's anything useful I can get out of "humans have free will and other things do not, because".
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Mr.Obvious on January 30, 2019, 06:59:08 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 04:36:30 AM
I think understand the point Plu tried to make, but I disagree.  Cogito Ergo Sum, and all that.

But what I don't understand is the idea that atheism implies no free will OR that theism CAN offer it.


It doesn't. We are actually in agreement over that. Atheism doesn't imply 'no free will'. Atheism doesn't imply 'free will'. Theism doesn't imply 'no free will'. Theism doesn't imply 'free will'. Atheism or theism can be set aside here. All I can go into is how I see the question of free will. My atheism is irrelevant to that. It's non-essential.

Quote
Theisms suggest to me that there is a controlling power that "knows all sees all and controls all" (or it isn't a deity) and that the lack of such a being means that there is not a controlling power and we are on our own and can make decisions for ourselves with no deistic pre-understanding or control over what we think.

So, OK, suggest to me how an intelligent being does not have free will.

I don't think free will can exist. Depending on how you frame it.
If you mean in our day to day life; us making choices whilst not feeling predetermined by an outside force to make those decisions. Yes: that kind of 'free will' exists. On that same level: 'you' and 'I' exist. We don't experience a lack of control over our own lives. We feel like active personalities imprinting their own desires, choices and legacy into the world.

So up to that point I do agree with you. We don't feel the absence of free will. We feel it's presence. We experience it. We experience ourselves. And we experience ourselves using free will in this world. And that is how we should live our lives.

But... If you look beyond our personal, and limited experiences; I personally come to the image that that level is a 'delusion' or an 'illusion'. Which is okay, because it doesn't impact my experience. It's non-consequential to the level on which I live my life.

Basically, I think that everything in this world could hypothetically be explained by the laws of physics and the material world. Our thoughts, the very brains we are. Our feelings. All synapses shooting energy and hormones being released. You don't have control over how you feel or what you believe. There is no concrete 'you' that is seperate from the rest of the universe, free from it's influence. No seperate soul that can independently make choices. This may not be your experience of reality, as you experience there to be a 'you', but that experience of reality is not an objective gauge for reality.
So if our thoughts and feelings and thus ultimately our choices are determined by 'outside' forces, not outside intelligence or intent, but simply the laws of physics, chemistry and biology... Than at the level beyond our personal experience, you wouldn't be able to say that any form of 'free will' were to actually exist.

And thus our lives were shaped by what seems like happenstance but is actually just the only outcome that could have been since the big bang and the laws of physics governing this universe 'began'. Again: there is no intelligence behind this. No intent. But because gravity and all the other forces work the way they do, the universe and all it's galaxies and planets and elements turned out the way they turned out. Because of that, chemistry turned out the way it turned out. And so on with biology. Evolution. And ultimately; 'you'. You and I are the product of a long, long chain of events happening in no other way than they could, due to the laws of physics, and we will continue to act, unaware of how completely influenced we are by these laws, in the only way that we can; continuously shaping a future that could never have been different since the beginning of time. 
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 07:03:24 AM
Quote from: Plu on January 30, 2019, 06:56:23 AM
I don't think there's anything useful I can get out of "humans have free will and other things do not, because".

It is a matter of neurons.  You might want to look into that.  On the other hand, your idea means that stepping on the lawn means that you are crunching on many intelligent beings.  You might want to just suspend yourself in mid-air do avoid causing harm to the intelligent beings you imagine. 
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Baruch on January 30, 2019, 07:21:16 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 12:39:32 AM
A recent comic strip had a character saying "I have been drawn to the atheistic concept of the non-existence of free will and that man is hopelessly compelled by instinct and the laws of physics”.

This confused me.  I consider that atheism involves free will and that theism does not.  Yet the person who writes this strip seems rational and thoughtful.  I think, being free of any deistic control, that I have free will.  And I don't agree with ideas that I am all cellular response prior to actual thought. 

Can anyone explain this apparent discrepancy?

Depends on the metaphysics ... aieee!  If you are a Newtonian, then determinism seems likely.  If you are QM, then determinism is not true at all ... just the general thread of events is cause/effect, but most things are random.  This is completely independent of theism/atheism.  It is a question of physics.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Plu on January 30, 2019, 07:22:58 AM
QuoteIt is a matter of neurons.

Neurons can be simulated quite effectively; that's how we get machine-learning, as well as virtualized bacteria and such things. There's nothing magical about them, we build that same concept into cars. That's why learning machines work.

Quote from: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 07:03:24 AM
You might want to look into that.  On the other hand, your idea means that stepping on the lawn means that you are crunching on many intelligent beings.  You might want to just suspend yourself in mid-air do avoid causing harm to the intelligent beings you imagine. 

How do you know what my ideas mean? At no point have I told you any of my ideas. I'm just trying to ask for clarification on what Free Will and Intelligence mean for you.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 07:24:08 AM
Quote from: Baruch on January 30, 2019, 07:21:16 AM
Depends on the metaphysics ... aieee!  If you are a Newtonian, then determinism seems likely.  If you are QM, then determinism is not true at all ... just the general thread of events is cause/effect, but most things are random.  This is completely independent of theism/atheism.  It is a question of physics.

Newton is old hat.  Determinsim is old hat.  In fact, YOU are old hat.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Baruch on January 30, 2019, 07:26:07 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 02:10:56 AM
Eliminating the double negative says that you think that atheism leads to free will, while theism requires that one doesn't (If a deity knows what you will do, you don't have it).

Predeterminism vs predestination.  They are not the same.  Christians for instance can be found in both camps.

G-d's foreknowledge/predeterminism, doesn't necessarily mean that we are puppets.  Just that G-d knows in advance what we freely will choose (including eternal damnation).

Paul however, does seem to be predestinate, and Calvin took it from there.  For Calvin, like in Islam, if G-d decided you are saved, it doesn't matter how many people you murder.  This allowed Calvin to support the execution of Michael Servetus.

Your theology is primitive as is your binary logic.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Baruch on January 30, 2019, 07:34:04 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 07:24:08 AM
Newton is old hat.  Determinsim is old hat.  In fact, YOU are old hat.

So says the atheist/Calvinist ... you are limited to the very influential Pauline/Calvinist view, in spite of being an atheist.  Aka a post-christian, as many atheists are.  You said "an omnipotent being who both knows and controls" .... there is no a priori reason to include "controls".  Actual events correspond more to "controls but doesn't know" ... see Garden of Eden.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 07:36:22 AM
Quote from: Baruch on January 30, 2019, 07:26:07 AM
Predeterminism vs predestination.  They are not the same.  Christians for instance can be found in both camps.

G-d's foreknowledge/predeterminism, doesn't necessarily mean that we are puppets.  Just that G-d knows in advance what we freely will choose (including eternal damnation).

Paul however, does seem to be predestinate, and Calvin took it from there.  For Calvin, like in Islam, if G-d decided you are saved, it doesn't matter how many people you murder.  This allowed Calvin to support the execution of Michael Servetus.

Your theology is primitive as is your binary logic.

LOLOL!  You are so silly sometimes.  Is it deliberate just to encourage more responses?

God knows what we will do in advance SO THAT IS FIXED, but yet you think that would be Free Will?  I have a bridge for sale. 
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 07:39:59 AM
Quote from: Baruch on January 30, 2019, 07:34:04 AM
So says the atheist/Calvinist ... you are limited to the very influential Pauline/Calvinist view, in spite of being an atheist.  Aka a post-christian, as many atheists are.  You said "an omnipotent being who both knows and controls" .... there is no a priori reason to include "controls".  Actual events correspond more to "controls but doesn't know" ... see Garden of Eden.

Actually, I'm mostly Kant and a lot of Hume.  The "controls" part is just a sort of general idea from the bible and most other theistic texts of all sorts.  They are mostly one and the same to me.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Baruch on January 30, 2019, 08:34:18 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 07:36:22 AM
LOLOL!  You are so silly sometimes.  Is it deliberate just to encourage more responses?

God knows what we will do in advance SO THAT IS FIXED, but yet you think that would be Free Will?  I have a bridge for sale.

You are assuming G-d has no free will.  That is theology.  When did you become a theologian?
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 10:07:10 PM
Quote from: Baruch on January 30, 2019, 08:34:18 PM
You are assuming G-d has no free will.  That is theology.  When did you become a theologian?

After all my posts, why would you assume I think there is a deity?
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Baruch on January 31, 2019, 02:42:43 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 30, 2019, 10:07:10 PM
After all my posts, why would you assume I think there is a deity?

Your self worship is practically Abrahamic.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: aitm on January 31, 2019, 06:29:22 PM
The term "free-will" suggests complete "freedom" against other "wills" pushing back. There are some pretty good stories about twins and triplets being separated at birth or quite young but yet find themselves liking the same things and favoring similar behaviors. This certainly suggests that perhaps we don't have "real" freedom but rather free will is far simpler as the phrase was originally intended...that we have the freedom to choose good over "evil" and thus be condemned or rewarded by the gods.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Baruch on January 31, 2019, 08:03:47 PM
But, you can't use that definition, but I can ;-)
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on February 22, 2019, 04:35:25 PM
Quote from: Baruch on January 31, 2019, 02:42:43 AM
Your self worship is practically Abrahamic.

But is it not somewhat justified?  Have YOU ever led a team that crawled around in the Oval Office putting stickers on furniture, almost crashed the 'Washington Crossing The Delaware' painting, started a major religious movement, or counted the K Rations in the White House Bomb Shelter?

I bet not!
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Baruch on February 22, 2019, 06:40:51 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on February 22, 2019, 04:35:25 PM
But is it not somewhat justified?  Have YOU ever led a team that crawled around in the Oval Office putting stickers on furniture, almost crashed the 'Washington Crossing The Delaware' painting, started a major religious movement, or counted the K Rations in the White House Bomb Shelter?

I bet not!

Bet you didn't try eating those bomb shelter rations ... must have been pretty stale since 1962.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on February 26, 2019, 07:43:07 AM
Quote from: Baruch on February 22, 2019, 06:40:51 PM
Bet you didn't try eating those bomb shelter rations ... must have been pretty stale since 1962.

Congrats on missing the point for the  29,444th time...
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Unbeliever on February 26, 2019, 01:44:36 PM
I think he's developed a habit of that...
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Baruch on February 26, 2019, 06:41:43 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on February 26, 2019, 01:44:36 PM
I think he's developed a habit of that...

Liberals .. random noise coming from them, no intelligent life detected ... beep.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on March 01, 2019, 09:20:43 AM
Quote from: Unbeliever on February 26, 2019, 01:44:36 PM
I think he's developed a habit of that...

That doesn't mean it can't be pointed out occasionally...
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Baruch on March 01, 2019, 01:05:24 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on March 01, 2019, 09:20:43 AM
That doesn't mean it can't be pointed out occasionally...

The point ... Kruschev says ... "We will bury you!".  Well not that decade not this decade either.  Go back to your Komsomol youth camps.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on March 21, 2019, 08:06:53 AM
Quote from: Baruch on March 01, 2019, 01:05:24 PM
The point ... Kruschev says ... "We will bury you!".  Well not that decade not this decade either.  Go back to your Komsomol youth camps.

Your attempted insult of my being a member of some Komsomol youth camp (whatever that is and I won't even bother to look it up) is entirely errorful but typical.

He was actually "НикиÑ,а Сергеевич Хрущев" as far as I can tell.  Not that it matters much.  I can slightly make out how we pronounced his last name.  To me, it would have been a sibilant squish through the teeth at the start, and a "chebv" at the end.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Baruch on March 21, 2019, 12:59:51 PM
Keep putting all your retirement investment into LBJ Great Society bonds.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on April 02, 2019, 12:55:27 AM
Quote from: Baruch on March 21, 2019, 12:59:51 PM
Keep putting all your retirement investment into LBJ Great Society bonds.

LOL!

First, I get a monthly retirement annuity indexed for inflation.  I made sure of that when I started my career job.  It was planned.

Second, everytime I got a raise in pay, half of it went into savings.  And when I had enough, I put it all into Vanguard Index funds.  When the stocks collapsed in 2008, I stayed in (I didn't see that coming, but only fools sell low) and when it started to improve, I put all my savings into it.  I came out tripled at least.

Since you were being sarcastic, I'll ask how your finances are going? 
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Baruch on April 02, 2019, 02:12:07 AM
I also use Vanguard, because one of my employers put their pension that way.  Another pension, as recommended by a former employer, was taken out of their internal system (many large employers have been doing this for years, they don't want the long term liability) and put into Raymond James.  Not that you can make much compounding since 2008 (thanks Ben Bernanke!).

Sometimes government employees, including military, get good financial advice at a young age (it matters how long you stick to it).  But not all pay attention.  It seems to me, the biggest impacts are ... did you get married? ... did you get married more than once? ... did you have children? ... is your lifestyle financially conservative? ... did you have a major medical event not fully covered?

Beyond pension funds in various "indexed" forms (less speculative that way), I have avoided real estate for 30 years now, and own no businesses.  But I do have various kinds of insurance, including against major financial collapse.  With major financial collapse, the paper assets won't be worth Confederate money.  Entropy is a major problem for finance in general.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Blackleaf on April 02, 2019, 02:29:13 AM
As a Christian, I believed in predestination, as that is the position the Bible actually takes. The Bible contradicts itself in many ways, but I've yet to see one verse that says or even implies that humans have free will. Romans 9 even contains a response to the most common objection to predestination: "How can God judge us, then?" The author's response is a copout, but it does make it pretty clear that he didn't believe in free will.

Now that I'm an atheist, I still don't believe in free will. It's a nonsense term that implies some sort of magical agency that governs and overrides the physical brain. I think that free will is only an illusion, and that our decisions are determined by unconscious processes before we even are aware of what decision we're going to make. Free will is an idea that makes us feel better, because we like to feel like we are in control, and the concept promises that we have control over ourselves. All you have to do is look to a drug addict to see that we do not have control over our own minds.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on April 02, 2019, 03:55:41 AM
Quote from: Blackleaf on April 02, 2019, 02:29:13 AM
As a Christian, I believed in predestination, as that is the position the Bible actually takes. The Bible contradicts itself in many ways, but I've yet to see one verse that says or even implies that humans have free will. Romans 9 even contains a response to the most common objection to predestination: "How can God judge us, then?" The author's response is a copout, but it does make it pretty clear that he didn't believe in free will.

Now that I'm an atheist, I still don't believe in free will. It's a nonsense term that implies some sort of magical agency that governs and overrides the physical brain. I think that free will is only an illusion, and that our decisions are determined by unconscious processes before we even are aware of what decision we're going to make. Free will is an idea that makes us feel better, because we like to feel like we are in control, and the concept promises that we have control over ourselves. All you have to do is look to a drug addict to see that we do not have control over our own minds.

Free Will is deciding what to have for meals.

Free Will is deciding whether to go grocery shopping today because you are out of lettuce and you may or may not want a salad with dinner.

Free Will is deciding whether to shovel the snow off the driveway or wait for it to melt.

Free Will is deciding how to react to a computer game move before you see it.

Free Will is a random choice if you want it to be or not if you don't want it to be. 

Free Will is making a choice that is not forced on you.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Baruch on April 02, 2019, 07:14:42 AM
I don't have control over my biochemistry?  So I must be a puppet then.  I guess only G-d has free will.  But the medieval theologians would have argued that G-d has no free will, because G-d can do no wrong.  So I guess they anticipated Newtonian mechanics then.  But we now know that most of physics is chaos, turbulence.  That is much better theology.  Maybe the next word I type can be predicted, but nobody (except G-d) is clever enough to do the math.  It is a power without practical significance, like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

What I see of reality, human or otherwise, is chaos, not cosmos.  At least in our ordinary circumstance.  We are swimmers caught in a torrent, heading for a waterfall of oblivion (or not).
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on April 07, 2019, 07:36:43 AM
Quote from: Baruch on April 02, 2019, 07:14:42 AM
I don't have control over my biochemistry?  So I must be a puppet then. 

That is basically what you have been arguing for years...
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Baruch on April 07, 2019, 09:11:44 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on April 07, 2019, 07:36:43 AM
Quote from: Baruch on April 02, 2019, 07:14:42 AM
I don't have control over my biochemistry?  So I must be a puppet then. 

That is basically what you have been arguing for years...

Broke quote.  The second line is yours ;-)  I have always supported free will.  But naturalists don't.  You are not a true naturalist, or you would be a determinist also.
Title: Re: Barney&Frank Comic Strip
Post by: Cavebear on April 07, 2019, 09:34:46 AM
Quote from: Baruch on April 07, 2019, 09:11:44 AM
Broke quote.  The second line is yours ;-)  I have always supported free will.  But naturalists don't.  You are not a true naturalist, or you would be a determinist also.

Yeah, messed that one up.  My apologies. 

Removing videos from quotes (for brevity) can be tricky.

I support Free Will, obviously.