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Science Section => Science General Discussion => Physics & Cosmology => Topic started by: PopeyesPappy on January 01, 2019, 11:30:13 AM

Title: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: PopeyesPappy on January 01, 2019, 11:30:13 AM
The New Horizons probe made its flyby of the Kuiper Belt object Ultima Thule last night. The initial telemetry data received 6 plus hours later indicates everything went as planned. We should be getting the initial images later today. It is going to take about a year to downlink all the data. It takes a while at 1 kilobit per second.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Minimalist on January 01, 2019, 11:50:29 AM
NASA should get an internet upgrade!
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on January 01, 2019, 12:04:11 PM
Quote from: Minimalist on January 01, 2019, 11:50:29 AM
NASA should get an internet upgrade!
And it install it on that flying hunk a junk out beyond the beyond?
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Baruch on January 01, 2019, 01:15:50 PM
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2017/nasa-taking-first-steps-toward-high-speed-space-internet

SkyNet ;-)
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: PopeyesPappy on January 02, 2019, 03:35:26 PM
First decent image.

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/7777/production/_105038503_text.jpg)
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on January 02, 2019, 03:41:14 PM
Ultimate snowman?
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Minimalist on January 02, 2019, 03:42:13 PM
Watch as some pro-choice asshole says "it looks like a foetus....don't abort the mission!"
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Unbeliever on January 03, 2019, 06:18:23 PM


QuoteIn this video, we will talk about the Ultima Thule encounter and specifically, interesting facts about the mission and how it influences our understanding of the solar system

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUgiRUyfods



Here's the Brian May video Anton mentioned:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Jm5POCAj8
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Cavebear on January 05, 2019, 07:14:51 AM
Quote from: Minimalist on January 01, 2019, 11:50:29 AM
NASA should get an internet upgrade!

It was launched with 2006 software, you understand, right?
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Cavebear on January 05, 2019, 07:17:02 AM
Great to see some pics though!  Another outstanding flight from NASA...  I thank them.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on January 05, 2019, 07:32:34 AM
APOD has an animation of the dirty little snowman's rotation.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Unbeliever on January 05, 2019, 02:07:01 PM
I'm looking forward to the time we can grab an asteroid like UT and put it in either Earth or Lunar orbit. Then we can both mine it and maybe turn it into a habitat for humanity. And then we can do it again, and again, and...
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Cavebear on January 05, 2019, 02:15:52 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 05, 2019, 02:07:01 PM
I'm looking forward to the time we can grab an asteroid like UT and put it in either Earth or Lunar orbit. Then we can both mine it and maybe turn it into a habitat for humanity. And then we can do it again, and again, and...

With you on that!  Let's have the Belters...
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Baruch on January 05, 2019, 02:59:02 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 05, 2019, 02:07:01 PM
I'm looking forward to the time we can grab an asteroid like UT and put it in either Earth or Lunar orbit. Then we can both mine it and maybe turn it into a habitat for humanity. And then we can do it again, and again, and...

Sorry, will be used as a weapon, dropping an small asteroid on an Earth target.  Humanity only knows how to make war.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: PopeyesPappy on January 06, 2019, 10:11:06 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 05, 2019, 07:14:51 AM
It was launched with 2006 software, you understand, right?

The software New Horizons launched with bears little resemblance to the software it has now. It has been updated several times. The slow transmit data rate is a hardware issue. Primary communication is via a pair of 12 watt transmitter connected to an 83" parabolic dish. It's a miracle of modern science that we can receive the signals at all at that distance. As the probe gets further away they have to slow the data rate in order to receive it. When it passed Jupiter is was transmitting at 38 kbps. At Pluto is was down to 2 kbps. Half a billion miles later at Ultima Thule they have slowed it to 1 kbps.

By comparison the Voyager I probe uses a 22 watt transmitter connected to a 12' dish. It has a more powerful transmitter connected to a much larger antenna, it currently transmits at 160 bits per second, but at nearly 12 billion miles from Earth it is nearly 3 times further from us than the New Horizons probe.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Baruch on January 06, 2019, 10:36:04 AM
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on January 06, 2019, 10:11:06 AM
The software New Horizons launched with bears little resemblance to the software it has now. It has been updated several times. The slow transmit data rate is a hardware issue. Primary communication is via a pair of 12 watt transmitter connected to an 83" parabolic dish. It's a miracle of modern science that we can receive the signals at all at that distance. As the probe gets further away they have to slow the data rate in order to receive it. When it passed Jupiter is was transmitting at 38 kbps. At Pluto is was down to 2 kbps. Half a billion miles later at Ultima Thule they have slowed it to 1 kbps.

By comparison the Voyager I probe uses a 22 watt transmitter connected to a 12' dish. It has a more powerful transmitter connected to a much larger antenna, it currently transmits at 160 bits per second, but at nearly 12 billion miles from Earth it is nearly 3 times further from us than the New Horizons probe.

That should be a 1/r^2 relationship, right?  Basically it takes X watt-seconds to make out a byte of comm.  The farther out you go, the longer it takes to assemble that total energy (the power staying the same at the transmitter).
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: PopeyesPappy on January 06, 2019, 10:46:53 AM
Quote from: Baruch on January 06, 2019, 10:36:04 AM
That should be a 1/r^2 relationship, right?  Basically it takes X watt-seconds to make out a byte of comm.  The farther out you go, the longer it takes to assemble that total energy (the power staying the same at the transmitter).

Yes for the last part, but I'm clueless on the formula. Antenna theory was more than 30 years ago for me, and I haven't used it since.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Minimalist on January 07, 2019, 11:15:14 AM
Nova ran an episode on that mission.  Simply fascinating.  I watched it last night.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on January 07, 2019, 11:22:10 AM
Quote from: Minimalist on January 07, 2019, 11:15:14 AM
Nova ran an episode on that mission.  Simply fascinating.  I watched it last night.
"Pluto and Beyond"?
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Minimalist on January 07, 2019, 11:24:16 AM
I think that was the name of it.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on January 07, 2019, 12:11:37 PM
Quote from: Minimalist on January 07, 2019, 11:24:16 AM
I think that was the name of it.
Bit of a cheat, they added new material to an older video. Still fun to watch.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Minimalist on January 07, 2019, 03:33:23 PM
It is an ongoing mission.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on January 07, 2019, 03:47:59 PM
Quote from: Minimalist on January 07, 2019, 03:33:23 PM
It is an ongoing mission.
"It just keeps going and going and going and going..."
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Unbeliever on January 07, 2019, 03:51:18 PM
I guess what goes up doesn't really have to come down after all!
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Minimalist on January 07, 2019, 04:59:41 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 07, 2019, 03:47:59 PM
"It just keeps going and going and going and going..."

Unless it hits something.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on January 07, 2019, 07:24:54 PM
Quote from: Minimalist on January 07, 2019, 04:59:41 PM
Unless it hits something.
No bunny would notice way out there.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Baruch on January 07, 2019, 07:29:38 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 07, 2019, 03:51:18 PM
I guess what goes up doesn't really have to come down after all!

It can escape the solar system, or even the galaxy ... but not the universe.  That is the ultimate downer.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Minimalist on January 07, 2019, 07:32:55 PM
What if it nudges a space rock which hits another and another and then another and which finally dislodges a small asteroid which then crashes into Earth and ends all life?

Wouldn't that suck?
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Baruch on January 07, 2019, 07:33:58 PM
Quote from: Minimalist on January 07, 2019, 07:32:55 PM
What if it nudges a space rock which hits another and another and then another and which finally dislodges a small asteroid which then crashes into Earth and ends all life?

Wouldn't that suck?

Q ball in the side pocket ... does that refer to you, or are you the 8 ball?
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Minimalist on January 07, 2019, 07:36:10 PM
The Law of Unintended Consequences is a cast-iron bitch.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Unbeliever on January 07, 2019, 07:36:39 PM
Quote from: Minimalist on January 07, 2019, 07:32:55 PM
What if it nudges a space rock which hits another and another and then another and which finally dislodges a small asteroid which then crashes into Earth and ends all life?

Wouldn't that suck?
I don't know, why would it suck? It might be fun.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Baruch on January 07, 2019, 07:43:22 PM
Quote from: Minimalist on January 07, 2019, 07:36:10 PM
The Law of Unintended Consequences is a cast-iron bitch.

Your kind of woman?  Name of a German dominatrix?
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Minimalist on January 07, 2019, 09:51:10 PM
I'm sure someone has thought of it.

Although I wouldn't mind seeing the associated costume!
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Baruch on January 08, 2019, 05:47:43 AM
Quote from: Minimalist on January 07, 2019, 09:51:10 PM
I'm sure someone has thought of it.

Although I wouldn't mind seeing the associated costume!

But would you take to the whip?
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on January 08, 2019, 06:18:39 AM
Quote from: Minimalist on January 07, 2019, 09:51:10 PM
I'm sure someone has thought of it.

Although I wouldn't mind seeing the associated costume!
[spoiler](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9a/fc/40/9afc404b91553c4183d1cc2c1c2d6681.jpg)[/spoiler]
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Baruch on January 08, 2019, 12:39:15 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 08, 2019, 06:18:39 AM
[spoiler](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9a/fc/40/9afc404b91553c4183d1cc2c1c2d6681.jpg)[/spoiler]

So you only screw astronauts?
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Cavebear on January 12, 2019, 05:29:42 AM
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on January 06, 2019, 10:11:06 AM
The software New Horizons launched with bears little resemblance to the software it has now. It has been updated several times. The slow transmit data rate is a hardware issue. Primary communication is via a pair of 12 watt transmitter connected to an 83" parabolic dish. It's a miracle of modern science that we can receive the signals at all at that distance. As the probe gets further away they have to slow the data rate in order to receive it. When it passed Jupiter is was transmitting at 38 kbps. At Pluto is was down to 2 kbps. Half a billion miles later at Ultima Thule they have slowed it to 1 kbps.

By comparison the Voyager I probe uses a 22 watt transmitter connected to a 12' dish. It has a more powerful transmitter connected to a much larger antenna, it currently transmits at 160 bits per second, but at nearly 12 billion miles from Earth it is nearly 3 times further from us than the New Horizons probe.

Thank you.  I did not know the software could  be updated so well.  The news suggested that was a problem and that old hardware limited software updates.  The understanding I got was that it was like adding new programs to an old Win 95 platform.  Good for them!
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: PopeyesPappy on January 12, 2019, 09:15:36 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 12, 2019, 05:29:42 AM
Thank you.  I did not know the software could  be updated so well.  The news suggested that was a problem and that old hardware limited software updates.  The understanding I got was that it was like adding new programs to an old Win 95 platform.  Good for them!

Well sure the hardware limits the software. New Horizons has a limited amount of memory and uses a 32 bit 12 Mhz RISC processors based on the MIPS R3000. You can't run software that wasn't designed for that processor, but you can design new software for the processor. How many times did Windows 95 get updated? How many updates did you run for the software running on your Windows 95 machine? Same concept. The NASA/SwRI team are just a lot more careful with the updates they load than Microsoft or Norton.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Cavebear on January 12, 2019, 09:24:04 AM
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on January 12, 2019, 09:15:36 AM
Well sure the hardware limits the software. New Horizons has a limited amount of memory and uses a 32 bit 12 Mhz RISC processors based on the MIPS R3000. You can't run software that wasn't designed for that processor, but you can design new software for the processor. How many times did Windows 95 get updated? How many updates did you run for the software running on your Windows 95 machine? Same concept. The NASA/SwRI team are just a lot more careful with the updates they load than Microsoft or Norton.

OK. I get that.  I didn't KNOW that, but I get it.  Thank you.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Baruch on January 12, 2019, 11:59:27 AM
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on January 12, 2019, 09:15:36 AM
Well sure the hardware limits the software. New Horizons has a limited amount of memory and uses a 32 bit 12 Mhz RISC processors based on the MIPS R3000. You can't run software that wasn't designed for that processor, but you can design new software for the processor. How many times did Windows 95 get updated? How many updates did you run for the software running on your Windows 95 machine? Same concept. The NASA/SwRI team are just a lot more careful with the updates they load than Microsoft or Norton.

Hardware for a long time now, is a "universal" computing machine.  Basically as long as the programming language supports the Turing Machine definition, it can do what any other computer can do, baring purely pragmatic considerations (memory and speed).

I would have loved to work on spaceship firmware, but never got the chance ;-(  But very unforgiving.  A single extra/missing "blank" or "punctuation" could kill the mission (and has on prior spacecraft).
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Cavebear on January 12, 2019, 01:22:52 PM
Quote from: Baruch on January 12, 2019, 11:59:27 AM
Hardware for a long time now, is a "universal" computing machine.  Basically as long as the programming language supports the Turing Machine definition, it can do what any other computer can do, baring purely pragmatic considerations (memory and speed).

I would have loved to work on spaceship firmware, but never got the chance ;-(  But very unforgiving.  A single extra/missing "blank" or "punctuation" could kill the mission (and has on prior spacecraft).

None of the spaceships meet the Turing test.  And I know about punctuation.  I typed my own punchcards in the late 60s.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Unbeliever on January 12, 2019, 01:28:22 PM
I think I remember a Mars mission that failed due to a mix-up between metric and standard measurements.


Ah, yes, here it is:
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric.02/

Quote(CNN) -- NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because a Lockheed Martin engineering team used English units of measurement while the agency's team used the more conventional metric system for a key spacecraft operation, according to a review finding released Thursday.

Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Baruch on January 12, 2019, 02:09:42 PM
This is why you check and double check.  I don't think my old friend, who has done several Mars missions, was connected to that one ;-(
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Cavebear on February 22, 2019, 05:48:40 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 12, 2019, 01:28:22 PM
I think I remember a Mars mission that failed due to a mix-up between metric and standard measurements.


Ah, yes, here it is:
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric.02/

Yep.  Worst science since Hubble lens.
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Unbeliever on February 22, 2019, 05:51:43 PM
Well, nobody's perfect...
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Cavebear on February 22, 2019, 05:58:12 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on February 22, 2019, 05:51:43 PM
Well, nobody's perfect...
But they fixed it and I consider THAT to have been even more impressive...  The mind boggles that they could.  The hairs on my arms stand up when I see the images...
Title: Re: New Horizons Ultima Thule Flyby
Post by: Baruch on February 22, 2019, 06:51:40 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on February 22, 2019, 05:51:43 PM
Well, nobody's perfect...

That is why G-d is perfect, yet has no body ;-)