This may, perhaps, generate a good deal of angst or anger, but frankly I am growing tired of the new faux patriotism that is blaring from the walls and sky and "anyonewhodoesnotbowtoitmustbeaantipariotic" bullshit.
By this, the misconceived thought that any of the middle east "adventures" we have embarked on in the last 20 years had a fucking thing to do with protecting "our" freedoms.
I find it a sickening platitude of bullshit whose purpose is only to help those who have lost or those who have served to justify the actions of the elite to use "us" as their cannon fodder. All salute the fallen or wounded who have served us gallantly to help the rich get richer and the poor get fucked more and more, but god damn it lets all throw rocks at anyone who refuses to blindly bow and splay themselves before the mighty altar of bullshit.
To those of you who have served or to those of you who have lost someone, you, by your presence here, have already shown an understanding and intellect that stands steadily above those who wave flags to justify their willingness to allow their sons and daughter to go off and die to make rich people richer, but make up for that knowledge by becoming the "American Patriot". You know who they are. Were it not for their child joining the service they would stand and scream against the machine.....but their child is part of the machine and now, so to must be they.....or you.
And to stand and say, "but the emperor has no clothes" is to risk the avalanche of rocks and arrows and bullets from those who have knowing bought the bullshit and lost their child and have no other recourse now but to make others understand how noble a lost it MUST be, to justify to those who have lost that it was indeed justified because to acknowledge it was NOT just is to acknowledge you fucked up again only this time with the very life of your precious.
I fully understand the rational...or rather lack of..really I do. And I would never toss this into the fire pit except for this place where I can. But god-damn it can we please stop with the self sacrificing posturing from those who have never done it?
And from those who understand the whole of it. Why cannot you admit it to those of us who refuse to admit the shame of the whole fuck of it? Once again, we got fucked by the rich and once again the rich say.."oh look at those patriots who protect "our " freedoms " so I can get richer and those poorer wave the flags and supply the fodder and the majority who perhaps know but refuse to say anything to save those who have lost from the reality that they lost for not a fucking thing.
War is a scam -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket
So what do you have against scams, other than not wanting to be the "mark"?
I think the American military is mostly used to keep the oil flowing from the Middle East, though the oil companies don't pay for it. Our "freedom" means little or nothing in that mix.
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 29, 2018, 04:52:02 PM
I think the American military is mostly used to keep the oil flowing from the Middle East, though the oil companies don't pay for it. Our "freedom" means little or nothing in that mix.
Yes. Voters are expendable, particularly EU citizens. That is why they are being replaced in mass. The control of energy, including oil, figures in every strategic calculation, both for war and peace. Otherwise, you could say that Rommel was wrong to try to get to Cairo, and Paulus was wrong to try to shut down the Lend Lease traffic going thru Stalingrad (and oil from Baku).
Quote from: Baruch on December 29, 2018, 04:50:06 PM
War is a scam -
It's Big Business. And isn't all Big Business a scam? Corporation Merkia controls the wars.
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 29, 2018, 04:52:02 PM
I think the American military is mostly used to keep the oil flowing from the Middle East, though the oil companies don't pay for it. Our "freedom" means little or nothing in that mix.
We don't need Middle Eastern oil these days...
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 29, 2018, 04:59:56 PM
It's Big Business. And isn't all Big Business a scam? Corporation Merkia controls the wars.
I would hope so. That way at least war is profitable ;-)) Socialists lose money even on sure bets.
This 'awareness' does not hold any merit any more. The adventures of the last 20 years is the result of the adventures before. And none of them has anything to do with your 'freedom'. The funny things is just a four-five yers ago, you guys couldn't handle the idea of talking about this subject in the forum.
But then you haven't been fucked. The millions of people that have died an the more millions forced to move around in the last ME invasions are the ones that fucked, their countries do not exist any more. Why? So American people could continue driving big cars. But the consequences turned out to be different, eh?
Ahahaah this also reminds me the reactions I got here in this forum, when I posted about 'American soldier = mercenary' subject and others. The conversations I had. What was her name, TomFloorey? And Stromboli? Do you remember the stupid, red neck brothers (active duty soldiers) coming from a fellow board? Sabrina got mad at me -she left just after- just because I replied to 'God bless men and women who protect our freedom abroad' bullshit with something like 'Their job is invading around for any kind of profit'. I exempt a couple names of course.
Remember those 'discussions'? While I was trying to reflect how in general the world see this from an ordinary person's vision, I was defined as 'anti-american woman who looked down on the stupid Americans she sees from her high horse'. LOL Those weeere the daaaays of our liiiiiiives. mmmm.
You people are still living on the moon. :)
Lots of hyperfocus goin' on.
I was taught patriotism in elementary school 65 years ago. My indoctrination in patriotism was stronger than my indoctrination into religion, although part of this was because I realized that there was an actual country to worship, but no proof there was a god that needed to be worshiped. I was told my leaders were smart, and they cared about me. I pledged my allegiance to the flag and my country every morning in school, although I didn't understand why I was doing it. I was simply taught to do it, which probably instilled my patriotism more than if someone tried to explain it.
I was coming of age during Vietnam. I think I had reached a period in my physical development where my brain was developing the ability to reason, rather than just react. As a result, I started questioning things that didn't make complete sense. I questioned my leaders, my parents, and even my friends, and I realized there was a lot of fake facts blowing all over the place, probably as much as there is today. I realized I did owe my country gratitude for some things, but there was also a whole lot my country did that was unfair and much that was outright heinous. I don't see why I should pledge my obedience to such an entity. I was born here. I had no control over that. Being born in a place doesn't mean I have to love the place unconditionally.
We learn a lot of stupid shit during our formative years, and it doesn't all go away when we turn 18. Patriotism is indoctrinated adults acting like Cub Scouts and Brownie Girls. It's actually dangerous. It turns morally capable individuals into a mob.
I served twenty years in the USN, starting in 1969. I was dangerous. Patriotism was just love of country to me.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 30, 2018, 06:12:37 AM
This 'awareness' does not hold any merit any more. The adventures of the last 20 years is the result of the adventures before. And none of them has anything to do with your 'freedom'. The funny things is just a four-five yers ago, you guys couldn't handle the idea of talking about this subject in the forum.
But then you haven't been fucked. The millions of people that have died an the more millions forced to move around in the last ME invasions are the ones that fucked, their countries do not exist any more. Why? So American people could continue driving big cars. But the consequences turned out to be different, eh?
Ahahaah this also reminds me the reactions I got here in this forum, when I posted about 'American soldier = mercenary' subject and others. The conversations I had. What was her name, TomFloorey? And Stromboli? Do you remember the stupid, red neck brothers (active duty soldiers) coming from a fellow board? Sabrina got mad at me -she left just after- just because I replied to 'God bless men and women who protect our freedom abroad' bullshit with something like 'Their job is invading around for any kind of profit'. I exempt a couple names of course.
Remember those 'discussions'? While I was trying to reflect how in general the world see this from an ordinary person's vision, I was defined as 'anti-american woman who looked down on the stupid Americans she sees from her high horse'. LOL Those weeere the daaaays of our liiiiiiives. mmmm.
You people are still living on the moon. :)
Yes, quality here has gone downhill. But posters aren't servants of your seraglio.
Yes, one damn thing leads to another, and events lead men instead of men leading events.
Quote from: SGOS on December 30, 2018, 07:55:22 AM
I was taught patriotism in elementary school 65 years ago. My indoctrination in patriotism was stronger than my indoctrination into religion, although part of this was because I realized that there was an actual country to worship, but no proof there was a god that needed to be worshiped. I was told my leaders were smart, and they cared about me. I pledged my allegiance to the flag and my country every morning in school, although I didn't understand why I was doing it. I was simply taught to do it, which probably instilled my patriotism more than if someone tried to explain it.
I was coming of age during Vietnam. I think I had reached a period in my physical development where my brain was developing the ability to reason, rather than just react. As a result, I started questioning things that didn't make complete sense. I questioned my leaders, my parents, and even my friends, and I realized there was a lot of fake facts blowing all over the place, probably as much as there is today. I realized I did owe my country gratitude for some things, but there was also a whole lot my country did that was unfair and much that was outright heinous. I don't see why I should pledge my obedience to such an entity. I was born here. I had no control over that. Being born in a place doesn't mean I have to love the place unconditionally.
We learn a lot of stupid shit during our formative years, and it doesn't all go away when we turn 18. Patriotism is indoctrinated adults acting like Cub Scouts and Brownie Girls. It's actually dangerous. It turns morally capable individuals into a mob.
A mob is what a nation is. So be a successful mob or an unsuccessful one, your choice. Yes, the President isn't perfect, unlike Jesus Christ ;-) ... so follow no one and no thing, because ... they are imperfect. Isn't that circular reasoning on your part? If you aren't perfect, and you only follow perfection (or a cult of personality like Gandhi), then how do you follow your own leadership? Well at least if in spite of inconsistency, you do follow your own lead, then you at least know your Fuhrer (leader) intimately.
Oh, and I don't believe people here are skeptical. Partisan yes, skeptical no. Otherwise it wouldn't be mostly Democrats and very few anarchists.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/30/87/8e/30878ebab3f823865268043a77b967a9--team-player-george-carlin.jpg)
I like George Carlin and I like freaks. But you can't build a company, a government or a country ... on freakishness.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on December 31, 2018, 09:32:52 AM
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/30/87/8e/30878ebab3f823865268043a77b967a9--team-player-george-carlin.jpg)
Yeah, fuck civilization.
I think I've never been patriotic because of the way I perceive myself in relation to others. I tend to feel related to things with which I have some personal interaction. I have strong interactions in one-to-one relationships and as the size of the group increases the more my sense of interaction is diluted and the less I feel any reciprocal relationship. When it comes to a nation of people, I have almost no relationship. Most people incorporate national identity as part of who they are and they feel an affinity for what their countrymen do, for example, they root for their country's team during the Olympics, where I become more invested in the personal stories of the individuals participating. I can relate to individuals much easier than groups. I see groups and nations as a necessary evil.
Pure individualism is solipsism, which is a medical condition, a mania. Depersonalization is also medical condition. But you have to induce depersonalization in Basic Training in order to get a soldier as your product. Young people are much more impressionable and athletic.
What the fuck is 'pure individualism'? Is it something like 'life energy'? LOL
Carlin is talking about something entirely different. He is not saying fuck team work or fuck civilisation.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 31, 2018, 11:54:48 AM
What the fuck is 'pure individualism'? Is it something like 'life energy'? LOL
Carlin is talking about something entirely different. He is not saying fuck team work or fuck civilisation.
Any extreme, pure individualism or pure collectivism ... is a point of comparison. Anyone who actually is that, they are clinically insane. Normal people are toward the middle of this spectrum.
It is possible to balance this, such as with Turkish Ghazis ... the collectivism of tribe and Islam, but individualism as warrior ethos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0P83sWBUSQ
Turks aren't feminists. I can respect masculinity of any ethnicity. Even if my mustache won't measure up ;-) And early on, the Ottoman Empire treated Jews well, compared to the damned Christians.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w1bUpaOf7E
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 31, 2018, 11:54:48 AM
What the fuck is 'pure individualism'? Is it something like 'life energy'? LOL
Carlin is talking about something entirely different. He is not saying fuck team work or fuck civilisation.
Then what is he talking about? His message seemed clear, stupid but clear.
No, his message is not clear. For you, the much bitching man, 'pure individualism' is something like women phrasing an unwanted form of behaviour of their men as 'which you do it constantly'... Is it clear enough?
But then you just answered this post because you were triggered by the one I wrote in the patriotisim bullshit. Which you have done 'constantly' in the past years whenever the subject was up.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 31, 2018, 02:29:57 PM
No, his message is not clear. For you, the much bitching man, 'pure individualism' is something like women phrasing an unwanted form of behaviour of their men as 'which you do it constantly'... Is it clear enough?
But then you just answered this post because you were triggered by the one I wrote in the patriotisim bullshit. Which you have done 'constantly' in the past years whenever the subject was up.
Show me.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 31, 2018, 02:54:12 PM
Show me.
I can't. It's deleted. Has it ever occured you that I actually should have more thousands of posts than it is shown.
But then if you can get what I wrote, there is no need. But as you can't; you 'always' do that!!!
AAAhaahah
Your bullshit is noted.
ahhh look at the two of you! And to think I thought I would have to re-introduce you kids....
I'm not the only one that skipped over Baruch's posts and made a point of not even attempting to read a single letter of them, am I?
Quote from: PickelledEggs on January 01, 2019, 04:29:03 PM
I'm not the only one that skipped over Baruch's posts and made a point of not even attempting to read a single letter of them, am I?
Remedial education is available down at the VoTech ;-)
Quote from: PickelledEggs on January 01, 2019, 04:29:03 PM
I'm not the only one that skipped over Baruch's posts and made a point of not even attempting to read a single letter of them, am I?
Who?
I can feel the love radiating like Chernobyl ;-0
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on December 30, 2018, 08:15:31 AM
I served twenty years in the USN, starting in 1969. I was dangerous. Patriotism was just love of country to me.
I honor your service to country. But I did not for the same reason. I was one of the people putting flowers into the guns of the national guard aiming their rifles at us for declaring the Vietnam War "stupid".
Guess who was right about that war?
Quote from: Cavebear on January 02, 2019, 05:18:35 AM
I honor your service to country. But I did not for the same reason. I was one of the people putting flowers into the guns of the national guard aiming their rifles at us for declaring the Vietnam War "stupid".
Guess who was right about that war?
Were you really right or just on the side that claimed it was right?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 02, 2019, 05:41:00 AM
Were you really right or just on the side that claimed it was right?
I objected to the Vietnam War because I concluded we weren't trying to win, but rather were trying "not to lose". You don't win a war by trying "not to lose".
I decided not to become "cannon-fodder". And ever since then, I have not supported any war we did not actively try to "win". And that includes all of the current ones.
If it helps any, I think we should have bombed every N Vietnam city into oblivion until they surrendered or couldn't fight any further.
But at the same time, I note that Ho Chi Min asked us for help to become a capitalist nation free from the French colonial empire post WWII. We chose the French, who have basically kicked us in the face ever since.
SOME DAY, we might stop being stupid like that.
And we are doing it again with the Kurds...
This stupidity wouldn't happen if you all would just elect ME Benevolent Dictator for Life...
I spent 2 years, three months, and 13 days in S.E.A. We were effective when the politicians let us be effective.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 02, 2019, 06:27:52 AM
I spent 2 years, three months, and 13 days in S.E.A. We were effective when the politicians let us be effective.
Too bad they didn't let us nuke Hanoi. That would have won the war for sure?
Any war is a bad war. Vietnam was uniquely bad (unless you count our present wars in the Middle East). Now if Vietnam was our main oil suppliers ... then it might have been necessary.
LBJ was uniquely evil on many levels. Yes, if you want to blame a civilian for Vietnam, he is to blame. But that is why we put a civilian in charge of DoD. If the voters put an incompetent in the WH (cough, cough), then guess who is to blame for that?
Sec Def Mattis was let go early and is unhappy. So were most of the generals Lincoln had to fire. Lincoln wasn't a military genius either.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 31, 2018, 11:54:48 AM
What the fuck is 'pure individualism'? Is it something like 'life energy'? LOL
Carlin is talking about something entirely different. He is not saying fuck team work or fuck civilisation.
It's nonsense. Just like basically every other fucking post he makes. Made up gibberish that only he understands so he can pretend he's smarter than everyone else.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on January 02, 2019, 11:08:54 AM
It's nonsense. Just like basically every other fucking post he makes. Made up gibberish that only he understands so he can pretend he's smarter than everyone else.
I am what I am, but not Popeye. I am not smarter than anyone else. Sometimes I am not dumber than others.
And I explained why both ends of that spectrum are useful straw men.. But if you never ever read my posts, then you will never figure that out.
Drunkenshoe is a Euro-socialist, Turkish-delight version. They are pure communism, the Borg.
Quote from: Cavebear on January 02, 2019, 06:06:49 AM
This stupidity wouldn't happen if you all would just elect ME Benevolent Dictator for Life...
Hey, you've got my vote!
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 02, 2019, 01:26:04 PM
Hey, you've got my vote!
That's One! Now please, everyone jump on the bandwagon.
I propose the following 10 Point Program:
1. Expanded immigration of educated people from all over the world (and make them welcome here).
2. Technology-oriented border control (with consideration to asylum-seekers).
3. Govt supported college education in STEM degrees (like the GI Bill of the 50s).
4. Increased taxation to businesses (they gain from public taxation for roads and railways, etc).
5. Infrastructure repair and improvement (which also puts people to employment).
6. Reduced taxation on business involved in basic discovery and research.
7. Tariffs on all foreign companies that do not abide by international patent laws.
8. Financial penalties to all nations that support hackers.
9. Renew all treaties with friendly nations. (we have to repair the Trump damage to international relations).
10. Seek and expand renewable resources.
Who is with me on this? Vote for Cavebear!
And yes, given that your list is very Centrist (not D, not R) .... I would vote for you.
We'll still need a Space Force to beat back the Cylons when they show up...
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 05, 2019, 02:44:43 PM
We'll still nee a Space Force to beat back the Cylons when they show up...
Right, we are the goal planet. I almost forgot that. Granted, I only watched the Battlestar: Ponderosa version, LOL!
Actually, I heard Neil DeGrasse Tyson say that a space force was a really good idea. I think he was talking to Colbert.
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 05, 2019, 02:44:43 PM
We'll still need a Space Force to beat back the Cylons when they show up...
Chinese have landed on the dark side of the Moon. So that war is already lost. At least they aren't Space Nazis. Just Space Commies.
Fried rice gobbling fifth columnists love it. I remember some scandal about Chinese finance of Al Gore in 2000 ...
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 05, 2019, 02:50:27 PM
Actually, I heard Neil DeGrasse Tyson say that a space force was a really good idea. I think he was talking to Colbert.
I love Mr DeGrasse. But evidently he has some troubles.
Quote from: Cavebear on January 05, 2019, 02:59:54 PM
I love Mr DeGrasse. But evidently he has some troubles.
What, he isn't a millionaire like you? ;-)
Quote from: Cavebear on January 05, 2019, 02:59:54 PM
I love Mr DeGrasse. But evidently he has some troubles.
There are three males on the planet that aren't in trouble or going to be in trouble.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 05, 2019, 03:09:08 PM
There are three males on the planet that aren't in trouble or going to be in trouble.
Me and what other 2?
Quote from: Cavebear on January 05, 2019, 03:10:31 PM
Me and what other 2?
You sayin' you'd never get charged?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 06, 2019, 12:26:27 PM
You sayin' you'd never get charged?
Charged with what? Sexual harassment? No. Most men wouldn't be. Note that "most" isn't "all".