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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Topic started by: Minimalist on December 15, 2018, 09:08:57 PM

Title: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Minimalist on December 15, 2018, 09:08:57 PM
Or even better shoved up the ass of every theist who comes down the pike.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/12/top-10-reasons-dont-believe-god-2/

QuoteHere are the top 10 reasons I don’t believe in God

QuoteBut “Does God exist?” is a valid and relevant question. Here are my Top Ten reasons why the answer is a resounding, “No.”

QuoteIn a comment on my blog, arensb made a point on this topic that was so insightful, I’m still smacking myself on the head for not having thought of it myself. I was writing about how believers get upset at atheists when we reject religion after hearing 876,363 bad arguments for it, and how believers react to this by saying, “But you haven’t considered Argument #876,364! How can you be so close-minded?” And arensb said:

“If, in fact, it turns out that argument #876,364 is the one that will convince you, WTF didn’t the apologists put it in the top 10?”

Why, indeed?



Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Hydra009 on December 15, 2018, 09:30:49 PM
QuoteThe number of times humankind has said, “We used to think (X) was caused by physical cause and effect, but now we understand that it’s caused by God, or spirits, or demons, or the soul”?

Exactly zero.
That's a big one for me.  Al the time, people come up with supernatural explanations for stuff.  Other people look into it, and the end result is always a resounding negatory.  None of this stuff is ever substantiated.  If I go to someone's house and they show me legit demons in the basement, that's a gamechanger.  If I go to someone's house and they show a cheeto shaped kinda sorta like Jesus (Cheesus Christ), I'm way less impressed.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Baruch on December 15, 2018, 10:30:27 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on December 15, 2018, 09:30:49 PM
That's a big one for me.  Al the time, people come up with supernatural explanations for stuff.  Other people look into it, and the end result is always a resounding negatory.  None of this stuff is ever substantiated.  If I go to someone's house and they show me legit demons in the basement, that's a gamechanger.  If I go to someone's house and they show a cheeto shaped kinda sorta like Jesus (Cheesus Christ), I'm way less impressed.

But, but ... y'all think there are demons in the White House etc ;-)
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Minimalist on December 16, 2018, 12:01:59 AM
No.  There's a fuckhead in the White House.  Nothing supernatural about him.  He's a classic mob boss.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: PickelledEggs on December 16, 2018, 01:37:03 AM
Quote from: Baruch on December 15, 2018, 10:30:27 PM
But, but ... y'all think there are demons in the White House etc ;-)
Just ignore Baruch and his ramblings. He's the non-extreme-conservative version of pr
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: drunkenshoe on December 16, 2018, 02:54:37 AM
Oddly enough, Baruch's cultural and personal traits that make him conservative also prevents him from going to extreme.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Baruch on December 16, 2018, 05:58:36 AM
Quote from: Minimalist on December 16, 2018, 12:01:59 AM
No.  There's a fuckhead in the White House.  Nothing supernatural about him.  He's a classic mob boss.

Like JFK?  Irish Mafia vs Italian Mafia.  Lost to LBJ, Texas Mafia.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Baruch on December 16, 2018, 06:02:19 AM
Quote from: PickelledEggs on December 16, 2018, 01:37:03 AM
Just ignore Baruch and his ramblings. He's the non-extreme-conservative version of pr

Thanks.  No, pr126 may just seem paranoid.  I think he is more ... annoyed.  That is why he pretends to be "trigger" happy about every nutty thing (which is probably not important enough to worry about).  Some French version of him is complaining right now ... about the protesting Mariannes of France being braless.  But I am not complaining ;-)

And yes, I am sympathetic to pr126 and Munch (who isn't paranoid or even annoyed).  I could't be, if either of them were Corbin Labor supporters.  In that case I would treat them like President Maduro of Venezuela.  I am also sympathetic to the "raw fear" people have of government, however partisan it may manifest.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Baruch on December 16, 2018, 06:05:02 AM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 16, 2018, 02:54:37 AM
Oddly enough, Baruch's cultural and personal traits that make him conservative also prevents him from going to extreme.

I may mock, I may satire ... and that isn't being either PC nor Pollyanna.  I don't like politics in general, and extreme politics in particular.  And personally I have no problem with gays or atheists.  But it isn't because I am a follower of Alinsky.  And I am curious and sympathetic to people from other cultures, including Muslims.  I am overly annoyed at Americans ... but that is a family fight.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: drunkenshoe on December 16, 2018, 06:30:42 AM
Quote from: Baruch on December 16, 2018, 06:05:02 AM
I may mock, I may satire ... and that isn't being either PC nor Pollyanna.  I don't like politics in general, and extreme politics in particular.  And personally I have no problem with gays or atheists.  But it isn't because I am a follower of Alinsky.  And I am curious and sympathetic to people from other cultures, including Muslims.  I am overly annoyed at Americans ... but that is a family fight.

You have no idea how PC and Pollyanna you are from a reversed angle. :)
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Baruch on December 16, 2018, 06:51:34 AM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 16, 2018, 06:30:42 AM
You have no idea how PC and Pollyanna you are from a reversed angle. :)

We all think we are unique, even if not eunuch.  I am a special snowflake too.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Mike Cl on December 16, 2018, 09:44:08 AM
Quote from: Minimalist on December 16, 2018, 12:01:59 AM
No.  There's a fuckhead in the White House.  Nothing supernatural about him.  He's a classic mob boss.
That's the message I've been giving my family for years.  He sees himself as a godfather and his children are his lieutenants.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Baruch on December 16, 2018, 09:56:45 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 16, 2018, 09:44:08 AM
That's the message I've been giving my family for years.  He sees himself as a godfather and his children are his lieutenants.

Trump or your own pater familias?  And if Trump, I didn't know you knew him and his family personally ;-(  Are you sure you aren't projecting your own inner Fuhrer?
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Minimalist on December 16, 2018, 12:49:58 PM
Quote from: Baruch on December 16, 2018, 05:58:36 AM
Like JFK?  Irish Mafia vs Italian Mafia.  Lost to LBJ, Texas Mafia.


No like John Gotti, Vito Genovese and Joe Profaci mafia.  You don't build anything in New York or run a casino in Atlantic City without the mob owning a piece of you.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: PickelledEggs on December 16, 2018, 12:57:00 PM
Quote from: Baruch on December 16, 2018, 09:56:45 AM
Trump or your own pater familias?  And if Trump, I didn't know you knew him and his family personally ;-(  Are you sure you aren't projecting your own inner Fuhrer?
You're de-railing the thread, Baruch.

Go make a post in the "political" section if you want to ramble incoherently about this
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Baruch on December 16, 2018, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: Minimalist on December 16, 2018, 12:49:58 PM

No like John Gotti, Vito Genovese and Joe Profaci mafia.  You don't build anything in New York or run a casino in Atlantic City without the mob owning a piece of you.

Of course.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Baruch on December 16, 2018, 01:42:19 PM
Quote from: PickelledEggs on December 16, 2018, 12:57:00 PM
You're de-railing the thread, Baruch.

Go make a post in the "political" section if you want to ramble incoherently about this

Thanks.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: SGOS on December 16, 2018, 02:03:58 PM
Excellent read.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Unbeliever on December 16, 2018, 05:52:34 PM
The word "God" is not well defined. With such a vague term people can believe many different things and still say they believe in God.

Quote from: Charles BradlaughThe atheist does not say," There is no God", but he says, "I know not what you mean by God"; the word God is to me a sound conveying no clear or distinct affirmation.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Minimalist on December 16, 2018, 06:56:44 PM
Quote
“The agnostic does not simply say, "l do not know." He goes another step, and he says, with great emphasis, that you do not know. He insists that you are trading on the ignorance of others, and on the fear of others. He is not satisfied with saying that you do not know, -- he demonstrates that you do not know, and he drives you from the field of fact -- he drives you from the realm of reason -- he drives you from the light, into the darkness of conjecture -- into the world of dreams and shadows, and he compels you to say, at last, that your faith has no foundation in fact.”
― Robert G. Ingersoll
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Baruch on December 16, 2018, 07:06:18 PM
Quote from: Minimalist on December 16, 2018, 06:56:44 PM


If one is trading on the fear and ignorance of others, then one is an American businessman, politician or both.  This applies to more than just religion.

Did Ingersoll make any money off his writing?  If so, then he is guilty of Capitalism!  The Sans-Cullottes should be around with the trundle shortly.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Minimalist on December 16, 2018, 09:02:40 PM
IIRC Ingersoll was more of an orator.  He gave speeches to admiring crowds.  I imagine he was paid to do so.

I think later on his speeches were collected by editors.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: mordant on April 27, 2019, 02:51:16 PM
Quote from: Minimalist on December 15, 2018, 09:08:57 PM
Or even better shoved up the ass of every theist who comes down the pike.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/12/top-10-reasons-dont-believe-god-2/
From the article:

"Not all religious and spiritual beliefs make testable claims"

Wow, that's and understatement.

In my observation and experience, no theistic religion makes testable foundational claims. And non-theistic religions are pretty rife with untestable claims too.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Sal1981 on April 27, 2019, 06:06:08 PM
From the article:
Quote from: 'GRETA CHRISTINA'
1: The consistent replacement of supernatural explanations of the world with natural ones.

2: The inconsistency of world religions.

3: The weakness of religious arguments, explanations, and apologetics.

4: The increasing diminishment of God.

5: The fact that religion runs in families.

6: The physical causes of everything we think of as the soul.

7: The complete failure of any sort of supernatural phenomenon to stand up to rigorous testing.

8: The slipperiness of religious and spiritual beliefs.

9: The failure of religion to improve or clarify over time.

10: The complete lack of solid evidence for God’s existence.
1. Basically god of the gaps.

2. All are different, and even divide into subgroups (sects), which tells me enough. We don't have Christian physics or Islamic mathematics, they're universally true regardless of where they're practiced and by anyone. It's just physics and mathematics, not so for world religions.

3. I don't think I've ever seen an argument for god that also didn't ignore physical reality in favor of some unbounded ontology; the 3 omni- attributes spring to mind. Why does god even have to have the omni attributes anyway? Can't it just be incapable of stopping evil or somesuch? Would make more sense than "works in mysterious ways" bullshit excuse.

4. I'm sure our patternicity in seeing the virgin Mary on a piece of toast is enough evidence for an affirming Catholic *facepalm*. Anyways, it just shows that if not false, it's weakening god the more we know and can substantiate.

5. If your faith is an accident of geography, doesn't that make you think twice?

6. Wasn't there a bogus experiment that showed the soul to weigh 23 grams? No, it's in our brains.

7. I think that even if, somehow, a supernatural phenomena was showed to be proveable, it would essentially just be seen as how nature is put together; so I don't get this one.

8. So annoying when someone does the old switcheroo and moves the goalpost. It should be apparent to an honest person that if you have to change your argument without realizing what you're doing, that your starting argument is flimsy, at best.

9. I think this is the strongest, IMO. The scientific method is self-correcting, while religion is, and has remained static over the eons. There's no patch, no correction made. Slavery is still mentioned and condoned in the Bible. Human sacrifice is still there. I think that is the death knell of any religion, one that doesn't change/revise with better understanding that comes along.

10. 2nd best argument in my book. I don't have to prove anything, it is up to the claimant to prove something exists or not. I won't be trying to find square circles though.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Blackleaf on April 28, 2019, 10:53:08 AM
Religions do change over time, but they're typically at least a few generations behind everyone else due to their stubbornness to change. When slavery was abolished, there were Christians on both sides of the fence, but now they act like they always knew that slavery was wrong. Of course, we can look back at their source material without bias and see that their reinterpretation of the clearly pro-slavery Bible is full of shit, but they never admit to being wrong. So they do improve, slowly, and they pretend to clarify their interpretations when necessary. If only they could see the truth that the reason such changes are necessary is that their religion clashes with their secular humanitarian sensibilities, and just dump religion altogether.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Baruch on April 28, 2019, 11:04:51 AM
Quote from: Blackleaf on April 28, 2019, 10:53:08 AM
Religions do change over time, but they're typically at least a few generations behind everyone else due to their stubbornness to change. When slavery was abolished, there were Christians on both sides of the fence, but now they act like they always knew that slavery was wrong. Of course, we can look back at their source material without bias and see that their reinterpretation of the clearly pro-slavery Bible is full of shit, but they never admit to being wrong. So they do improve, slowly, and they pretend to clarify their interpretations when necessary. If only they could see the truth that the reason such changes are necessary is that their religion clashes with their secular humanitarian sensibilities, and just dump religion altogether.

Typical progressive view ;-)  Must get to utopia, right now!
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Munch on April 28, 2019, 03:30:35 PM
Quote from: Baruch on April 28, 2019, 11:04:51 AM
Typical progressive view ;-)  Must get to utopia, right now!

well, there never will be a utopia, because humankind is just to divisive with itself in the broader scheme of things. Common interests make better groups, but humanity is just not that far advanced to either let go without certain vices or be fully open to all others ideas without criticism, which to me is better as a safety measure.

Best method to living right is to be your own boss, and if you have to follow orders, do so with disdain.

Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Baruch on April 28, 2019, 07:12:54 PM
Quote from: Munch on April 28, 2019, 03:30:35 PM
well, there never will be a utopia, because humankind is just to divisive with itself in the broader scheme of things. Common interests make better groups, but humanity is just not that far advanced to either let go without certain vices or be fully open to all others ideas without criticism, which to me is better as a safety measure.

Best method to living right is to be your own boss, and if you have to follow orders, do so with disdain.

But trying to achieve a utopia (as a con artist) one can, as a theist or atheist, set up a lot of death squads and death camps.  The ends do justify the means, as long as your intention is good, regardless if your result is good or not.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: drunkenshoe on April 29, 2019, 04:02:47 AM
A lot of theists would say that they don't care about religions to that list. Because most of the people who define themselves as theists only, often do not believe in religions.
Title: Re: This Should Be Stickied
Post by: Baruch on April 29, 2019, 07:09:40 AM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on April 29, 2019, 04:02:47 AM
A lot of theists would say that they don't care about religions to that list. Because most of the people who define themselves as theists only, often do not believe in religions.

That is why Heaven is put off, until after death.