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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Topic started by: GSOgymrat on December 11, 2018, 12:13:52 PM

Title: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: GSOgymrat on December 11, 2018, 12:13:52 PM
https://youtu.be/zmrv9NSKKYE

Basically Peterson is saying that God is recurring themes in human narratives and behaviors that are prosocial. He then uses the narratives found in literature, specifically the Bible, Jungian psychology and Russian novels, as explanations for the nature of God. As I see it there are two problems with this approach. One is by defining God as what I would call "the great narrative" he's not using the definition of God used by most people. If you accept his definition, one can't be an atheist because no one is going to say there is no order to the universe and humans don't tell stories.

The other problem I see is that Peterson, and everyone else, only follows stories that resonate with him. Peterson opposes cultural relativism but I think basing God on the stories that resonate with an individual or a culture is inherently relativistic. Two people can read the same story and come away with very different meanings.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Unbeliever on December 11, 2018, 01:11:35 PM
It's what I call "cultural pareidolia." people read about this or that and put it together in ways that confirm their beliefs. I have a buddy that does that with ancient aliens.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: aitm on December 11, 2018, 02:17:53 PM
Gods tend to follow the customs of the cultures they "serve" yet always suggested as the other way round. Years ago when I was reading "Black Elk Speaks" the Indian view of the gods was simplistic and asked for little, much as the Mongols of the "Nine Yak Tails", compared to "cultured" gods where the rules are more severe and detailed and as well the requests for intervention are far more complicated that a good hunt or strong child.

In the end....or as Amuricans are fond of saying, "at the end of the day", it appears that all of the gods, from the alligator to Zeus, seem to be unable to procure a greater percentage of success for their followers than any other god....shame.   Sad.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: GSOgymrat on December 11, 2018, 02:41:37 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 11, 2018, 01:11:35 PM
It's what I call "cultural pareidolia." people read about this or that and put it together in ways that confirm their beliefs. I have a buddy that does that with ancient aliens.

I have a coworker who is very into ancient aliens, the electric universe and various secret societies. He frequently forwards videos and articles to me usually with the disclaimer, "Now I know your skeptical, but you have to watch this."
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Poison Tree on December 11, 2018, 04:51:29 PM
Every time I hear Peterson talk about god I can't help but wonder if he actually believes what he is saying or if he simply knows that he has a strong conservative following and is trying to cash in on a desire for "serious, intellectual defense of christianity/god" using William Lane Craig style gobbledygook arguments.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: GSOgymrat on December 11, 2018, 05:44:53 PM
Quote from: Poison Tree on December 11, 2018, 04:51:29 PM
Every time I hear Peterson talk about god I can't help but wonder if he actually believes what he is saying or if he simply knows that he has a strong conservative following and is trying to cash in on a desire for "serious, intellectual defense of christianity/god" using William Lane Craig style gobbledygook arguments.

The impression that I get is he picks his words with tweezers and I can't really blame him. He knows there are Christians who want him to endorse their ideology but he's reluctant to do that directly. He his non-Christian following will dwindle if he is perceived to be a theologian. He really works with archetypes and narratives and in predominately Christian cultures it's Biblical stories that resonate. I'm not sure if Peterson believes Christianity is the one true religion.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Unbeliever on December 11, 2018, 05:56:40 PM
I doubt he believes anything. He's just a character, playing a role.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: SGOS on December 11, 2018, 06:40:04 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 11, 2018, 01:11:35 PM
It's what I call "cultural pareidolia." people read about this or that and put it together in ways that confirm their beliefs. I have a buddy that does that with ancient aliens.
I'm impressed that you bothered to follow him at all.  I stopped viewing right at 6 minutes.  He reminds me of a westernized Deepak Chopra in that he doesn't seem to be saying anything, and he uses an excessive and unnecessary amount of words to do that, Chopra is at least succinct in his nonsense.  I'm happy that someone debunked him. I usually just shut him off.  To me he's just another self impressed windbag that takes forever to get to a point, and by that time I'm so bored that I could care less what his point was anyway.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: SGOS on December 11, 2018, 06:42:19 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 11, 2018, 05:56:40 PM
I doubt he believes anything. He's just a character, playing a role.
An annoying intellectual?
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Unbeliever on December 11, 2018, 06:42:45 PM
Quote from: SGOS on December 11, 2018, 06:40:04 PM
I'm impressed that you bothered to follow him at all.

LOL! Don't be impressed - I didn't watch any of the video! I don't have time for such drivel.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Baruch on December 11, 2018, 08:55:52 PM
Quote from: aitm on December 11, 2018, 02:17:53 PM
Gods tend to follow the customs of the cultures they "serve" yet always suggested as the other way round. Years ago when I was reading "Black Elk Speaks" the Indian view of the gods was simplistic and asked for little, much as the Mongols of the "Nine Yak Tails", compared to "cultured" gods where the rules are more severe and detailed and as well the requests for intervention are far more complicated that a good hunt or strong child.

In the end....or as Amuricans are fond of saying, "at the end of the day", it appears that all of the gods, from the alligator to Zeus, seem to be unable to procure a greater percentage of success for their followers than any other god....shame.   Sad.

Two Southern college football teams, both majority Baptist, praying to Jebus for victory?  This was satirized in ancient Greece.  Not modern at all.

Go and pray to Pelosi or Trump why don't y'all.  There are your gods, with feet of clay.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Baruch on December 11, 2018, 08:57:11 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 11, 2018, 06:42:45 PM
LOL! Don't be impressed - I didn't watch any of the video! I don't have time for such drivel.

Is that you ... Wile E Coyote ... Genius?
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Baruch on December 11, 2018, 09:06:40 PM
Here is what y'all don't like.  The Intellectual Dark Web isn't Trotsky-ite.  Doesn't sound like a drug induced poli-sci class at UC-Berkeley in 1965, yes?

Yeah, he has had his brief dance with fame over 2.5 years now.  He has made a lot of money too.  And all you losers ... hate that.  Just as you hate anyone who is more famous or has more money than you ... because ... losers be losers.

As far as his theology goes, he is Jungian and agnostic.  A questionable psychology POV, not a theological POV.  But people here, don't believe in philosophy or theology, because those are Dead White People stuff.

I happen to agree, on very broad lines with Jordan Peterson ... that what is important in every discussion involving humans is ... psychology.  That psychology actually trumps philosophy and theology.  But I am actual theist, he is not.  Jung is interesting, but I can do my own metaphysics.

Other than that, we don't agree, because my individualism rejects his collective-unconscious group-think.  Western people have deep seated cultural patterns, that are not the same as deep seated Chinese cultural patterns.  And individuals are ... variant from those stereotypes.

And that is as far as his observations can take him ... if you are a Dead White Male ... then you share statistically, many of the same characteristics as other Dead White Males ... but relatively, not absolutely.

He also shows as many others have, that predominant male-female differences are ... real.  That Feminism is a Left political movement.  Though it looks like Feminism is going to be crushed under the Panzer tank treads of transgenderism.

So yeah, for the last 12 months I have been following, thru the broader Intellectual Dark Web ... this Jordan Peterson fad.  There are other people smarter than him ... but they aren't Progressives either.  Those all died from LSD overdose during the UCLA French Existentialist orgy of 1966.

One other thing I agree with him on ... totalitarians of any political wing, deserve death.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: GSOgymrat on December 11, 2018, 10:55:20 PM
Quote from: Baruch on December 11, 2018, 09:06:40 PM
Here is what y'all don't like.  The Intellectual Dark Web isn't Trotsky-ite.  Doesn't sound like a drug induced poli-sci class at UC-Berkeley in 1965, yes?

Yeah, he has had his brief dance with fame over 2.5 years now.  He has made a lot of money too.  And all you losers ... hate that.  Just as you hate anyone who is more famous or has more money than you ... because ... losers be losers.

Why would I fault him for making money? I bought his books and was going to pay to see him talk but the plans fell through. As a therapist, I'm thrilled that a psychologist has gained international attention with a best-selling Jungian-inspired self-help book. That people are talking about Jung in 2018 is pretty amazing.

QuoteI happen to agree, on very broad lines with Jordan Peterson ... that what is important in every discussion involving humans is ... psychology.  That psychology actually trumps philosophy and theology.  But I am actual theist, he is not.  Jung is interesting, but I can do my own metaphysics.

I like Jordan Peterson, his personality and his ideas, and I agree with a lot of what he says. When it comes to what he has to say about God I'm less impressed. The problem, as I said before, is narratives lend themselves to relativism and alternate perspectives. Much of therapy is helping people discover new personal narratives. Peterson tries to ground narratives in archetypes but even those are maleable. For example, Peterson writes that male represents order and female represents chaos but that can easily go the other way: women keep home and hearth while men leave to explore, women give life while men deal death, etcetera.

QuoteHe also shows as many others have, that predominant male-female differences are ... real.  That Feminism is a Left political movement.  Though it looks like Feminism is going to be crushed under the Panzer tank treads of transgenderism.

Anyone who has been around young children knows gender differences are real. Transgender people are acutely aware of gender differences. If gender differences were totally socially derived trans people would not be physically altering their bodies.

QuoteOther than that, we don't agree, because my individualism rejects his collective-unconscious group-think.  Western people have deep seated cultural patterns, that are not the same as deep seated Chinese cultural patterns.  And individuals are ... variant from those stereotypes.

This touches on my other problem with his process when he talks about God. Chinese narratives aren't Canadian narratives except in the broadest sense and I don't think you can cherry pick the narratives that are shared by people in various cultures, combined with genetic predispositions and evolutionary psychology, and use that as evidence for God... well, obviously people do but I don't buy it.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Baruch on December 12, 2018, 03:03:16 AM
GSOgymrat - My last post isn't about you personally.  Unless I can tag a particular response to a particular person.  There are plenty of people here who fit my ... profiling them.  It is also OK to be uncomfortable with his god-talk.  You are much more into him than I am, but as you say, it is probably because of what you do for a living.  Whatever reason he has for the god-talk ... it is probably complicated.  As with so much other "crop circle" evidence, qualitative, not quantitative, and not reproducible under controlled conditions ... however persuasive it might seem, it is woo.  On psychology, he knows some things.  On religion, not so much.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Baruch on December 14, 2018, 06:45:53 PM
Lets take this positive, and from theology to psychology ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDQ8DiP_Y_A

The Shadow is our god.  But it is a monster from the Id (Forbidden Planet).  Progress only gives you the fate of the Krell.  Unless we competently bring up the unconscious, then the nightmares in the unconscious mind will come out on their own, and consume us.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Baruch on December 14, 2018, 06:49:19 PM
More on the same subject, on how not to be French-like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgJ1n9DF1WE

Churchill had developed his inner psychopath.  Lord Halifax hadn't.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: drunkenshoe on December 15, 2018, 08:03:19 AM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on December 11, 2018, 10:55:20 PM
...As a therapist, I'm thrilled that a psychologist has gained international attention with a best-selling Jungian-inspired self-help book. That people are talking about Jung in 2018 is pretty amazing. ...

Why do you think it is amazing? Jung died in 60s. This man has never been obscure. He is one of the few historical figures influenced the Western World that has gone through certain movements of sexual rveolution, the gender studies, fascination with sexual identities. He is not 'discovered' because self help is asking some brand new questions, or offer real solutions to people. He is one of the major influential figures that created this understanding in the beginning. 

Have you ever thought that any kind of gender based self help explanation, particularly with this perspective makes sense to people, because it's a convenient and safe way to deal with the hypermodern society? It's a popular culture solution. You can read and make loose assumptions and make money from it.   

Nobody listens to someone who stands up and say that how the global economical system shapes everything and that this is all about selling stuff. 40 years ago, it was about selling shampoo, conditioning and deoderant, knife sets, now it is identities and coaching; how should you live your life. People don't even use the word 'capitalism' any more. For a looong time now.

Is it a coincidence that the rise of self help boosted the general bullshit called the gender studies and there came the rise of a culture of worshipping oneself, human body and change the simple concepts like self confidence with hubris? Solipsism, self centered world views that teaches people they 'deserve' simply everything. That what they desire is what they need? Genders using historical events and references to blame each other.

Is it a coincidence that the number of people who aspires to be a psychiatrist, psychologist or a life coach or a career coach is over the roof?

Is it a coincidence that this is the most ego boosting job out there anyone can do?

Jordan Peterson gained international attention because of the already dominant tendencies and what people love to hear about themselves. And he is playing a role of the 'rebel'. As if he is not politically correct. What he sells is the oldest version of politically correct ideas on gender and human nature. 

Freud, Jung...these people are the reason for the new age hokum. That doesn't mean they are not important.

There is no difference between what The White Goddess and Jungian psychology tells in general as a category of source of knowledge, way of thinking regarding to human nature or genders. One is labeled as a batshit crazy wiccan bible, other is today's self help which is the majority of people think as some sort of 'science' that will change the world or their lives.

Self help is fucking placebo. A highly addictive one at that. It works in style of pryramid scheme. If you can find a corner, promote a good marketing and convince people you have the solution to their problems you become successful.

There is a reason why most people start with schools of psychology and then often end up with angel coaching and quantum healing. I don't mean you or anyone specific, I am talking about the nature of self help. 

Basically, as a result most people think gender based self help is some sort of a sub branch of evolutionary sciences. If you guys think, there will be any constructive consequences of this, well good luck. Don't hold your breath. Because there is nothing more dangerous than some thing imitating to be a solution while it is the main part of the problem.

Best example, religion. And self help is a new kind of religion. Because people need a new way to swallow what is in front of them. A different sugar coating. What is sweeter than promoting one's self by promoting others?     

   

Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Baruch on December 15, 2018, 09:27:25 AM
So you oppose psychology?  Or you only support it when providing narcotics and psychoactive substances thru the legal drug cartel?  See ADHD etc epidemic in the US with our children.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: drunkenshoe on December 15, 2018, 09:43:07 AM
I am against snake oil salesmanship.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Baruch on December 15, 2018, 10:47:27 AM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 15, 2018, 09:43:07 AM
I am against snake oil salesmanship.

James Earl Jones, playing the snake priest Doom, in Conan The Barbarian (1982) is disappointed in you.

So first a long post (which is enjoyable), then a short riposite'.

So you only believe in Peano's Axioms of Arithmetic, like a good Pythagorean cultist?  Wonder if Pythagoras' voice was an entrancing as James Earl Jones?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCk_RSpUs_M

A blind obedience scene taken from a Crusader's description of the fortress of the Assassins in N Iran.

Will you jump off a cliff for Theodor Adorno ... @ Dialectic of Enlightenment?
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Unbeliever on December 15, 2018, 01:20:12 PM
Quote from: Baruch on December 15, 2018, 10:47:27 AM
Wonder if Pythagoras' voice was an entrancing as James Earl Jones?

Not possible, no one has ever had as rich a voice as did Mr. Jones.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Baruch on December 15, 2018, 01:32:29 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 15, 2018, 01:20:12 PM
Not possible, no one has ever had as rich a voice as did Mr. Jones.

Yeah for masculinity.  General Patton had a squeaky girly voice ... the contrast must have been ... ridiculous.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Baruch on December 15, 2018, 02:28:27 PM
You have to dig into the deep past, in order to study the collective unconscious ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JodNMjXphKA

This is the reason why, this past year, I studied Middle Egyptian and Babylonian.  Studying Sumerian now.  To recover the deep memories, you have to speak its language.

This deeply explains our time, previous times, and future times.  There is a heroic mono-story, with countless people at try-outs for the pert of the hero/heroine.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: GSOgymrat on December 15, 2018, 03:21:40 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 15, 2018, 08:03:19 AM
Why do you think it is amazing?     

In the US very few therapists use Freudian or Jungian psychoanalysis.  I personally know of no one who does psychoanalysis or even discusses Jung. Most therapists in the US right now use cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectal behavioral therapy, motivational interviewing, trauma-informed care and mindfulness training because these are evidence based. Most mental health professionals in the US work from a biopsychosocial model of health. The effects of capitalism, sexism, race, class, homophobia, poverty and such on the individual are part of the social component. Society can make people sick.

(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5088cdabe4b08eaef9eecedc/t/5143757be4b02285c8ba2146/1363375485210/biopsychosocial+model.jpg)

I agree that people pursue careers in mental health because they find the work personally gratifying because financially it is a poor choice. It is especially bad for psychiatrists, who are among the lowest paid physicians. In the US there are not enough psychiatrists, especially of rural communities.

I'm all for calling out hokum. Everyone needs to be skeptical and I am glad there are people like you who are looking at the big picture and questioning the status quo.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: drunkenshoe on December 15, 2018, 03:29:28 PM
There is a misunderstanding, GSO. I wasn't talking about therapy. I was talking about self help.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: GSOgymrat on December 15, 2018, 03:53:00 PM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 15, 2018, 03:29:28 PM
There is a misunderstanding, GSO. I wasn't talking about therapy. I was talking about self help.

(https://johnsondon23.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/hacf1457e.jpeg)
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Baruch on December 15, 2018, 10:34:23 PM
Cognitive Therapy is mostly used in the US today.  For decades it was Behaviorism.  Freudian psychoanalysis was mostly before Behaviorism got going strong after WW II.

Is any psychology valid?  It isn't particle physics, so must not be real.  In fact, most of medicine isn't real, because it is routinely not reliably reproducible.

But I will say, that if there is no valid psychology, then there is certainly no valid politics either.

Actual medicine ... you help the body heal itself.  And in many cases, placebo works, because ... mind-body duality.  Of course materialists don't believe in mind, just neural tissue.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: drunkenshoe on December 16, 2018, 03:04:34 AM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on December 15, 2018, 03:53:00 PM
(https://johnsondon23.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/hacf1457e.jpeg)

LOL. Well, I hope you got me better anyway.

I think people with real education and experience in this field should unite and try to 'outlaw' self help bullshit. It's cancer.

E: And Jordan Peterson is not one of them.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: drunkenshoe on December 16, 2018, 03:23:57 AM
Quote from: Baruch on December 15, 2018, 10:34:23 PM
Cognitive Therapy is mostly used in the US today.  For decades it was Behaviorism.  Freudian psychoanalysis was mostly before Behaviorism got going strong after WW II.

Is any psychology valid?  It isn't particle physics, so must not be real.  In fact, most of medicine isn't real, because it is routinely not reliably reproducible.

But I will say, that if there is no valid psychology, then there is certainly no valid politics either.

Actual medicine ... you help the body heal itself.  And in many cases, placebo works, because ... mind-body duality.  Of course materialists don't believe in mind, just neural tissue.

Yeah and sometimes I want to write 'material' on a bat and hit the people who still talks like '...of course the materialists...' so their mind-body duality could get cured. :) Trust me, there is no better cure than a keen blunt object, materialising in air with a certain speed to make neural tissues suddenly more valid than they usually are. Old world solution. Tough love.

   

Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Baruch on December 16, 2018, 06:12:59 AM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 16, 2018, 03:04:34 AM
LOL. Well, I hope you got me better anyway.

I think people with real education and experience in this field should unite and try to 'outlaw' self help bullshit. It's cancer.

E: And Jordan Peterson is not one of them.

Perhaps.  But is that the Continental Left speaking, or the Turkish steppe warrior Amazon speaking?

While I agree that the brain is involved, being a non-materialist, I can't agree to such a stilted view of medicine in general, nor psychiatry in particular.  Remember, I work in medicine (admin).

Is self-help like self-lawyering, or self-doctoring?  Perhaps.  Dr Peterson could be making $100 per hour from every young man in his audience.  What is different with YouTube and with these symposia .. is they go on for 1-2 hours.  Not some 15 min diagnosis you get in regular medicine, 30 mins in counseling.  So let nobody practice counseling, without a license?  And let no counseling happen without a proper appointment, that is one-on-one?  Well, Dr Peterson did that too, that is how he drew his conclusions.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: Baruch on December 16, 2018, 06:14:46 AM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 16, 2018, 03:23:57 AM
Yeah and sometimes I want to write 'material' on a bat and hit the people who still talks like '...of course the materialists...' so their mind-body duality could get cured. :) Trust me, there is no better cure than a keen blunt object, materialising in air with a certain speed to make neural tissues suddenly more valid than they usually are. Old world solution. Tough love.



Spoken like Alp Arslan.  Don't think a Seljuk or an Ottoman had time for introspection.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson’s God - Debunked
Post by: drunkenshoe on December 16, 2018, 06:23:14 AM
Nah, I promise it is all hypermodern rage. :)