I know this video is largely preaching to the choir but I think Drew makes some good points. The four defenses of Islam he addresses are:
1. Criticizing Islam is hateful or racist.
2. All the bad parts of Islam are not true Islam.
3. Bad things exist in every religion so singling out Islam is unfair.
4. You're criticizing women's rights in Islam but not asking Muslim women how they feel.
https://youtu.be/INZfPHFzFAI
All true. But not because of Left or Right. Theist or Atheist. Rationalist or Irrationalist. Materialist or Immaterialist. It is true because grown-ups are psychopaths. Their cultural flavor of psychopathy varies, but not in any essential way. People have no idea, who they are or what they are doing.
I like strawberry/banana psychopathy! LOL
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 10, 2018, 07:20:06 PM
I like strawberry/banana psychopathy! LOL
Sorry, too gay for words.
I like the funny farm, where life is happy and gay ho ho hee hee! LOL
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 10, 2018, 07:38:48 PM
I like the funny farm, where life is happy and gay ho ho hee hee! LOL
It's Weird Al Paper-Mache.
I’ve never defended Islam, just the suckers raised in it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I consider myself quite liberal and yet I've never defended islam or any of the other religions invented by the fertile minds of men.... which is all of them.
Not a true liberal ... at least in GB. It would be strange if an atheist defended it. But most people posting here are not just atheists ... their primary political POV is very liberal.
That is a neo-liberal, not classical liberal. Two different POV.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on December 12, 2018, 11:23:47 AM
I’ve never defended Islam, just the suckers raised in it.
I've defended people's right to practice their religion as long as they acknowledge separation of church and state and the right of other people to practice their own faith or no faith. The problem is there are religious people, particularly Muslims and Christians, who don't want to separate church and state and believe everyone should believe their religion. They don't trust people to make their own decisions regarding meaning and values, they want them prescribed.
Quote from: Baruch on December 12, 2018, 12:28:01 PM
Not a true liberal ... at least in GB. It would be strange if an atheist defended it. But most people posting here are not just atheists ... their primary political POV is very liberal.
When it comes to religion I think I'm less anti-theist than many people here. If someone's religious beliefs make them more prosocial and give them a sense of meaning and purpose, more power to them. I may not share their beliefs but allowing people the space to follow their own path is more important than me leading them down mine. As I've mentioned before, I really don't care about atheism, I care about secularism and the rights of the individual. Unfortunately Muslim majority nations don't have a good history of separating church and state and valuing freedom of religion-- that's my real issue with Islam.
In Islam religion and state are inseparable.
Because Islam is a political doctrine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef1LCIvF6eU
Christianity, when it began, was also a political doctrine, because in those days religion and politics were inseparable. It's getting to be that way again, unfortunately.
Quote from: Minimalist on December 12, 2018, 12:18:34 PM
I consider myself quite liberal and yet I've never defended islam or any of the other religions invented by the fertile minds of men.... which is all of them.
Yes--that!
Quote from: pr126 on December 12, 2018, 12:51:58 PM
That is a neo-liberal, not classical liberal. Two different POV.
People who flunked elementary sand box ... won't notice.
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 12, 2018, 01:25:20 PM
Christianity, when it began, was also a political doctrine, because in those days religion and politics were inseparable. It's getting to be that way again, unfortunately.
Separation only occurred in the US, after it partially happened in GB. This is unique, not normal at all. As per my "good old times post" regarding pre-modern society ... the way things have mostly been done, is very ... conformist, with lots of violence to anyone not conforming. And many of the standards of conformance (like skin color) are themselves non-sense.
Ok, so there was a truce in GB regarding the wars of religion. Ireland, Scotland and Britain (England/Wales) got burned out on their three-way melee. Ireland being Catholic, Scotland being Presbyterian, and Britain being Anglican. The American colonies were all different too, Maryland being the only Catholic colony among the English speaking colonies. Lots of people who didn't fit into the three-way truce (Quakers) fled to the New World also. Colonies had Established religion. Puritans in New England executed Quakers for heresy. The need for the US to unify, from 1775 forward, and even 1783 forward, created the need to disestablish religion in all the former colonies. Thomas Jefferson, who was rather secular, provided intellectual backing.
So where is this tolerance coming from? Originally from the US, and from nowhere else. Your Golden-Age of tolerance is BS outside of the US. Politics was more important to us than creed. Churches N and S split over the Civil War, because of political differences, not because of theological ones.
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 12, 2018, 02:43:29 PM
Yes--that!
Note, my primary ideological bent, is not opposition to agnosticism or atheism ... but to liberalism. As it is, liberalism was hijacked by the French Revolution, and has devolved into psychosis ever since. The malign influence of France, particularly thru Thomas Jefferson, has gradually poisoned us.
For this Liberal, there is and never was, a good religion. All are false. None help mankind in the long run and few in the short run. They are all fictions that make one blind to what really is. Islam is one of the worst--it joins Christianity in that respect. But none---none--are good or productive; unless you are the leader or one of them, then one can get wealth, unlimited sex and personal power. That's the real name of the game!
And for this Liberal there is and never was a good conservative. The world changes constantly at an ever accelerating pace since the Industrial Revolution and they simply cannot deal with it. If it were up to them we'd still be living in caves and eating lichen off of rocks. I suspect the truth is that they cannot adapt!
Quote from: GSOgymrat on December 10, 2018, 06:15:54 PM
I know this video is largely preaching to the choir but I think Drew makes some good points. The four defenses of Islam he addresses are:
1. Criticizing Islam is hateful or racist.
2. All the bad parts of Islam are not true Islam.
3. Bad things exist in every religion so singling out Islam is unfair.
4. You're criticizing women's rights in Islam but not asking Muslim women how they feel.
All of these rebuttals are fair, and yet I doubt few - if any - liberals here actually hold any of those positions.
My "defense" is simply that Americans shouldn't freak out when they see someone wearing a turban nor fly into a rage upon learning that a mosque is planned to be constructed in NYC. Islam is of course a horribly backwards religion and fertile ground for discrimination, violence, and a type of authoritarian ideology that is fundamentally incompatible with Western-style democracy.
I suspect that there are ideological motivations driving the rampant confusion of these two stances.
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 13, 2018, 10:03:47 AMBut none---none--are good or productive; unless you are the leader or one of them, then one can get wealth, unlimited sex and personal power. That's the real name of the game!
Jeez, where do I sign up!?
I think it's funny when conservatives constantly tell liberals what liberals believe.
Empathy and tolerance of difference is considered bad by the right-wing, but money, in any form, is the be-all and end all of existence.
See, we liberals can play that game, too!
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 13, 2018, 01:38:44 PM
Jeez, where do I sign up!?
Jones anyone? Waco is supposed to be a good place to start. Grow your local church into a mega church--have you pick of your flock--you could then flock them any way you'd like. :)
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 13, 2018, 01:42:11 PM
I think it's funny when conservatives constantly tell liberals what liberals believe.
There was a thread like that, something along the lines of "why do liberals love Islam?" only to be informed through the comments that they do not in fact love Islam. Part of me wants to believe that this was taken to heart and that opinion got reassessed. Part of me suspects otherwise.
I think opinions rarely get reassessed.
Quote from: Hydra009 on December 13, 2018, 03:10:19 PM
There was a thread like that, something along the lines of "why do liberals love Islam?" only to be informed through the comments that they do not in fact love Islam. Part of me wants to believe that this was taken to heart and that opinion got reassessed. Part of me suspects otherwise.
I think one reason liberals are accused of loving Islam is because in the US where Muslims are a very small minority liberals don't like it when people are harassed for being different. I have a kind of "I don't like what you're saying but I'll defend your right to say it" attitude towards Islam, which may be seen by conservatives as "loving" Islam. Some conservatives believe freedom of religion is freedom to choose one of the many versions of Christianity. "You're free to have any flavor you like as long as it's chocolate-- dark chocolate, milk chocolate, mint chocolate... Your choice!"
And that worries me because we're a secular state, not a Christian one. If our objection to Islamism is merely that it's the wrong religion, we have already lost.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on December 12, 2018, 11:23:47 AM
I’ve never defended Islam, just the suckers raised in it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There is a clear difference between criticizing islam and criticizing muslims. As you well know, you can defend muslims and have compassion towards them, while being (rightfully) critical of islam. Many extreme liberals and many muslims do not see this separation.
QuoteMy "defense" is simply that Americans shouldn't freak out when they see someone wearing a turban nor fly into a rage upon learning that a mosque is planned to be constructed in NYC.
And yet it isn't the Liberals who are the problem.
https://www.ajc.com/news/national/nearly-americans-would-deny-muslim-american-citizens-the-right-vote-new-report-finds/3JaLmKciEigUGNSjG27QWN/
QuoteStereotyping is strongly related to cultural conservatism and views were even more polarized among those favorable to President Donald Trump, the report found. For example, Democrats believe that a majority of Muslims (67 percent) wanted to fit in, yet Republicans believed only 36 percent did. And when comparing Muslims and Christians, Democrats evaluated Muslims slightly more favorably than Christians (+15 vs +11), whereas Republicans evaluated them much less favorably (-4 vs +24).
Quote from: Hydra009 on December 13, 2018, 03:10:19 PM
There was a thread like that, something along the lines of "why do liberals love Islam?" only to be informed through the comments that they do not in fact love Islam. Part of me wants to believe that this was taken to heart and that opinion got reassessed. Part of me suspects otherwise.
Yes, all liberals are closet conservatives ;-) Like Clinton, like Obama.
I don't care what liberals believe or don't. I want their self destructive nature to get its just rewards, but on some isolated Devil's Advocate Island, far from me. Liberals have taught me to hate human rights. The end does justify the means.
Quote from: Hydra009 on December 13, 2018, 03:35:10 PM
And that worries me because we're a secular state, not a Christian one. If our objection to Islamism is merely that it's the wrong religion, we have already lost.
Yes, we are the USSA ... and we need to be burned down.
This was uploaded today.
https://youtu.be/cuOfs7IRh5Q
Quote from: GSOgymrat on December 13, 2018, 10:33:41 PMhttps://youtu.be/cuOfs7IRh5Q
I mostly agree, but I'd like to play devil's advocate and come at this from a polar opposite position and see which claim is stronger. So forgive anything that seems excessively harsh.
"we are the first mass-scale, religiously diverse democracy"
Were we really that religiously diverse? There weren't official censuses on that until relatively recently, but I'm pretty confident that in the 1700s, the US was almost entirely Christian (and specifically Protestant) with a small Catholic population and an even smaller Jewish population and a light dusting of everything else. If you cut hairs enough and get down to the nitty-gritty of Anabaptists and Baptists and Presbyterians and Seventh Day Adventists, then yeah, it was a "diverse" landscape, but not really diverse.
And yeah, the US was IIRC first to the party with a "diverse" democracy/republic, but lots of other countries followed suit (Canada, Australia, UK, France, India, etc) so that's no longer our selling point. That's like bragging about doing something before it was cool. No one cares about that!
"low levels of prejudice"
Ehhh...there was that whole thing about state religions and witch trials and making laws against atheists holding office. And that's just religious prejudice. If you want to expand it out to racial prejudice, we would be here all night.
"respect for different identity communities"
Ehhh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_violence#List_of_Mormon_wars_and_massacres)...Also, I'm pretty sure the native Americans wouldn't agree with that. Or Catholics. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Protestantism_in_the_United_States#Anti-Catholic_sentiment_and_violence) Or Jews. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism_in_the_United_States#Colonial_era)
I don't really disagree with his spiel about the Founders. If anything, that just highlights how progressive they were in comparison to other people of the time.
"I think about it as a potluck nation [preferring the cultural mosaic idea over the melting pot idea]"
I mean, that's partially true, but Americanization strikes fast and hard. Shiranu can back me up on this. It's like 3-4 generations from 100% non-assimilated to 100% assimilated. (Amerika ist wunderbar!) I mean, just listen to guy on the video. He has that generic American reporter accent. Tell me that's what his great-grandfather sounded like. Sure, some cultural practices stick around for a long time, but there's a huge cultural shift in not a very long time at all.
To go totally off-track, the real thing that binds Americans together is capitalism. Black, white, Jewish, Protestant, Wiccans, whatever - we all hit up the local Walmart, order some burgers at McDonalds, chug some Coke, watch the latest Game of Thrones episode, crank up Bohemian Rhapsody, etc. We have strong cultural ties, mostly through crass commercialism and mass entertainment. And that works to pave over a lot of differences between us. Mostly.
That video is mostly correct but only gives part of the picture - it glosses over a LOT of really horrible stuff from our past to push this liberal "we love diversity!" narrative. Yeah, that's true now (sort of). But it's definitely not nearly as universal or as strong a sentiment as he's leading us to believe.
Quote from: Hydra009 on December 13, 2018, 11:35:55 PM
I mostly agree, but I'd like to play devil's advocate and come at this from a polar opposite position and see which claim is stronger. So forgive anything that seems excessively harsh.
"we are the first mass-scale, religiously diverse democracy"
Were we really that religiously diverse? There weren't official censuses on that until relatively recently, but I'm pretty confident that in the 1700s, the US was almost entirely Christian (and specifically Protestant) with a small Catholic population and an even smaller Jewish population and a light dusting of everything else. If you cut hairs enough and get down to the nitty-gritty of Anabaptists and Baptists and Presbyterians and Seventh Day Adventists, then yeah, it was a "diverse" landscape, but not really diverse.
And yeah, the US was IIRC first to the party with a "diverse" democracy/republic, but lots of other countries followed suit (Canada, Australia, UK, France, India, etc) so that's no longer our selling point. That's like bragging about doing something before it was cool. No one cares about that!
"low levels of prejudice"
Ehhh...there was that whole thing about state religions and witch trials and making laws against atheists holding office. And that's just religious prejudice. If you want to expand it out to racial prejudice, we would be here all night.
"respect for different identity communities"
Ehhh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_violence#List_of_Mormon_wars_and_massacres)...Also, I'm pretty sure the native Americans wouldn't agree with that. Or Catholics. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Protestantism_in_the_United_States#Anti-Catholic_sentiment_and_violence) Or Jews. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism_in_the_United_States#Colonial_era)
I don't really disagree with his spiel about the Founders. If anything, that just highlights how progressive they were in comparison to other people of the time.
"I think about it as a potluck nation [preferring the cultural mosaic idea over the melting pot idea]"
I mean, that's partially true, but Americanization strikes fast and hard. Shiranu can back me up on this. It's like 3-4 generations from 100% non-assimilated to 100% assimilated. (Amerika ist wunderbar!) I mean, just listen to guy on the video. He has that generic American reporter accent. Tell me that's what his great-grandfather sounded like. Sure, some cultural practices stick around for a long time, but there's a huge cultural shift in not a very long time at all.
To go totally off-track, the real thing that binds Americans together is capitalism. Black, white, Jewish, Protestant, Wiccans, whatever - we all hit up the local Walmart, order some burgers at McDonalds, chug some Coke, watch the latest Game of Thrones episode, crank up Bohemian Rhapsody, etc. We have strong cultural ties, mostly through crass commercialism and mass entertainment. And that works to pave over a lot of differences between us. Mostly.
That video is mostly correct but only gives part of the picture - it glosses over a LOT of really horrible stuff from our past to push this liberal "we love diversity!" narrative. Yeah, that's true now (sort of). But it's definitely not nearly as universal or as strong a sentiment as he's leading us to believe.
I will admit, I did find it refreshing to see someone so unabashedly parading how great we are... but yeah, by the end of it you are just annoyed that by skimming history he almost, if not did, outright lied about it.
It's gotta be a balance; you cant just view anything as perfect, or anything as horrible. You have to focus on fixing flaws in the system but not get fixated on all that is negative, but you also cant look at it as wonderful and ignore any flaws just because they don't effect you.
The US is not a democracy, it is a republic. There are no democracies (aside from ancient Athens). You are brain washed puppets of the Elite.
America aspires to an ideal, but has never achieved it.
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 14, 2018, 01:57:14 PM
America aspires to an ideal, but has never achieved it.
May all ideals die in the gulag. Get real or become a virtuous victim ... the more you are victimized, the higher your ranking in the D-party.
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 14, 2018, 01:57:14 PM
America aspires to an ideal, but has never achieved it.
But has never quite failed it either... As long as we can skip along dodging the alligators in the water and the tigers on the land, we can keep trying.
Well, let's just hope we can continue dodging those damned alligators, and you're right, we might make it. But the 'gators keep coming up from the sewers...
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 18, 2018, 01:36:30 PM
Well, let's just hope we can continue dodging those damned alligators, and you're right, we might make it. But the 'gators keep coming up from the sewers...
This is where civilizations go to die ...
e.g. Romans ... yeah, that doesn't work, lets deal with it next Emperor ... eventually you have a long list of "does not work" that stops the heart cold. The German barbarians were able to come in, because the Empire was already in Intensive Care. In the mid-4th century, Emperors could still kill scads of illegal immigrants without much fuss.
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 18, 2018, 01:36:30 PM
Well, let's just hope we can continue dodging those damned alligators, and you're right, we might make it. But the 'gators keep coming up from the sewers...
If we can dodge the alligators each day, that is sufficient to the day. And as Franklin said “A Republic, if you can keep it.â€
I try and that is all any of us can do.
Quote from: Cavebear on December 21, 2018, 09:38:33 AM
I try and that is all any of us can do.
Don't let Yoda hear you say that!
LOL
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 21, 2018, 02:31:24 PM
Don't let Yoda hear you say that!
LOL
OK. OK. "The try all is what can do I"...
Hey speaking of which, how do the Star Wars characters relate to us?
Quote from: Cavebear on December 21, 2018, 02:34:30 PM
OK. OK. "The try all is what can do I"...
Hey speaking of which, how do the Star Wars characters relate to us?
You are the bureaucratic Death Star officer that Darth Vader was psychically strangling?
Quote from: Cavebear on December 21, 2018, 02:34:30 PM
OK. OK. "The try all is what can do I"...
Hey speaking of which, how do the Star Wars characters relate to us?
Baruch is our Jar Jar Binks...
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 21, 2018, 07:24:53 PM
Baruch is our Jar Jar Binks...
I am the only one who gets Jar Jar. He is (and I know I am alone in this) my favorite character ... excepting Yoda of course. Nihilist you are, no snake soup you get.
Quote from: Baruch on December 21, 2018, 07:45:51 PM
I am the only one who gets Jar Jar. He is (and I know I am alone in this) my favorite character ... excepting Yoda of course. Nihilist you are, no snake soup you get.
No, not quite alone. I have Jar Jar on my desk. Along with Taz. And a lava carved Spook (looks like Mad Mag. spook--the black one.). And a stylized doggie for all of my best pals that have died and a Yankee logo that lights up. Don't know what this has to do with anything, but I do like Jar Jar.
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 22, 2018, 10:56:55 AM
No, not quite alone. I have Jar Jar on my desk. Along with Taz. And a lava carved Spook (looks like Mad Mag. spook--the black one.). And a stylized doggie for all of my best pals that have died and a Yankee logo that lights up. Don't know what this has to do with anything, but I do like Jar Jar.
Yes! I knew I liked you for some reason. We are no like pr126, who admitted his inner-child died long ago ;-(
Well, for the other posters, they are more like teenagers, all angst. You and I are pre-teen.
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 21, 2018, 07:24:53 PM
Baruch is our Jar Jar Binks...
Well, I meant how do they relate to us in time, but you cracked me up about Baruch being our Jar Jar Binks!
Quote from: Cavebear on December 25, 2018, 10:10:49 PM
Well, I meant how do they relate to us in time, but you cracked me up about Baruch being our Jar Jar Binks!
So are you Chewbacca also?