Hi, I am Birdy and I came here looking for intelligent discussion on theistic arguments and related topics. Been wandering in some sort of Suburban desert away from the views of other people, formulated my ideas and would like to bounce them off other people. I'm not an atheistic, but I was when I was younger so I feel I get a better understanding of the belief system surrounding atheism than most Christian or "spiritual" people do. I do consider myself Christian, however my beliefs don't line up with typical Christians, and you will find that I don't share most of those views.
Quote from: Birdy23 on December 02, 2018, 02:27:28 PM
Hi, I am Birdy and I came here looking for intelligent discussion on theistic arguments and related topics. Been wandering in some sort of Suburban desert away from the views of other people, formulated my ideas and would like to bounce them off other people. I'm not an atheistic, but I was when I was younger so I feel I get a better understanding of the belief system surrounding atheism than most Christian or "spiritual" people do. I do consider myself Christian, however my beliefs don't line up with typical Christians, and you will find that I don't share most of those views.
Welcome. I am a messianic Jewish fan. I also don't fit in any particular ideology or theology.
Welcome aboard Birdy.
Welcome a board!
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Welcome, Birdy--hope you stick around for awhile. I must tell you that you may think you know what other atheists 'believe', but I doubt it. I don't 'believe' anything. I don't rely on my belief nor faith to inform any of my thoughts. Theists 'believe' in things for they seem to shy from facts and data, and therefore have to rely on some sort of beliefs. You have to 'believe' in god for there are no facts or data to support the existence of any such entity or force.
Hi Birdy!
Atheists don't have a "belief system," we have a non-belief system. Do people who don't believe in Santa Claus have a "belief system"? We just don't believe in any gods.
Welcome!
Quote from: Birdy23 on December 02, 2018, 02:27:28 PM
Hi, I am Birdy and I came here looking for intelligent discussion
*laughs*
Just kidding. Like people are saying, atheism is not a belief system, but a lack of belief in a deity. Just like how people who don't believe in ghosts don't necessarily hold any other beliefsin common, same thing with people who don't believe in any gods.
You're reportedly a Christian with atypical beliefs. We've gotten that a lot, by people whose beliefs are usually extremely typical. Unless your beliefs are super out there - we're talking Church of Gail out there - you're probably a lot more conventional than you think.
Don't make assumptions about my belief system based on the fact that other Christians say the same thing.
A belief system typical of atheism is the belief in the Big Bang created by a force that does not have awareness. Naturally, that includes the belief that that is possible without a conscious force, which is a belief. Another typical belief is belief that the awareness goes away upon death, which is a belief.
It's kind of hard to shift between a belief in God and atheism without changing a whole bunch of other beliefs.
OK, so what's the difference between your beliefs and those of "regular" Christians? For example, do you believe that the Bible is the "Word of God"?
I believe that much of it is fictional.
I think it's all fictional, every word of it. What parts do you believe are not fictional?
The New Testament, parts of it.
This isn't a belief system I am going to debate, just an FYI sort of thing.
Quote from: Birdy23 on December 02, 2018, 05:44:37 PM
Don't make assumptions about my belief system based on the fact that other Christians say the same thing.
Kind of ironic to say when you insist on lumping all atheists under one tent. You insist on putting words in my mouth and informing me of my 'beliefs'. If you want to come on this site and have a decent discussion don't keep telling me what I think when you know zero what I think.
You need to be specific in terms of what belief I assumed you had that you do not have.
In terms of relevance to this post, I don't intend to argue for Christianity ever. In my post, I clearly defined God as a conscious being who caused the universe to be created, without any other assumptions about God.
Quote from: Birdy23 on December 02, 2018, 06:29:01 PM
You need to be specific in terms of what belief I assumed you had that you do not have.
In terms of relevance to this post, I don't intend to argue for Christianity ever. In my post, I clearly defined God as a conscious being who caused the universe to be created, without any other assumptions about God.
Do you have any sort of proof for that assertion?
What you do or don't believe about a god is irrelevant until you prove that said god exists.
And why do you care to share your beliefs with us? Why come to an atheist forum to "discuss" your beliefs, or our lack of same?
Quote from: Birdy23 on December 02, 2018, 06:13:55 PM
The New Testament, parts of it.
This isn't a belief system I am going to debate, just an FYI sort of thing.
As a philosophical/psychological system, or as history?
Quote from: Birdy23 on December 02, 2018, 06:13:55 PM
The New Testament, parts of it.
This isn't a belief system I am going to debate, just an FYI sort of thing.
You apparently don't realize that all four gospels were written as political fiction. There never was any such person as Jesus Christ. There was never a place called Nazareth for him to have lived in. It was all lies, every bit of it.
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 02, 2018, 06:52:01 PM
And why do you care to share your beliefs with us? Why come to an atheist forum to "discuss" your beliefs, or our lack of same?
There is something dangerous about developing opinions on philosophical matters without discussing them with other people to see how they think. Comparing viewpoints is all.
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 02, 2018, 06:43:44 PM
Do you have any sort of proof for that assertion?
We can discuss it on the other thread.
Quote from: Birdy23 on December 02, 2018, 07:04:23 PM
There is something dangerous about developing opinions on philosophical matters without discussing them with other people to see how they think. Comparing viewpoints is all.
OK, works for me.
Quote from: Birdy23 on December 02, 2018, 05:44:37 PMA belief system typical of atheism is the belief in the Big Bang created by a force that does not have awareness. Naturally, that includes the belief that that is possible without a conscious force, which is a belief.
Yes, people who don't believe in god do not, by definition, believe that God kickstarted the universe with the Big Bang. Not particularly surprising.
QuoteAnother typical belief is belief that the awareness goes away upon death, which is a belief.
The belief that awareness ends at death is kinda implicit in the term death. But whatever. Technically, an atheist could believe any of number of things about death: death is the end, reincarnation, we all wake up in Riverworld, we all become sprites in computer games, etc. But yes, generally speaking, atheism is associated with a recognition of mortality.
QuoteIt's kind of hard to shift between a belief in God and atheism without changing a whole bunch of other beliefs.
You'd be surprised. There are people out there who more or less see things in a secular lens, just with a dash of theism or deism on top. The Big Bang happened, but goddidit -> The Big Bang happened. The only really big hangup is this fantastical heavenly realm stuff. Immortality, endless bliss, etc. Basic wish-fulfillment stuff. That's really hard for people to move past, so a lot of them don't.
Quote from: Hydra009 on December 02, 2018, 07:38:57 PM
Yes, people who don't believe in god do not, by definition, believe that God kickstarted the universe with the Big Bang. Not particularly surprising.
The belief that awareness ends at death is kinda implicit in the term death. But whatever. Technically, an atheist could believe any of number of things about death: death is the end, reincarnation, we all wake up in Riverworld, we all become sprites in computer games, etc. But yes, generally speaking, atheism is associated with a recognition of mortality.
You'd be surprised. There are people out there who more or less see things in a secular lens, just with a dash of theism or deism on top. The Big Bang happened, but goddidit -> The Big Bang happened. The only really big hangup is this fantastical heavenly realm stuff. Immortality, endless bliss, etc. Basic wish-fulfillment stuff. That's really hard for people to move past, so a lot of them don't.
Death means the physical body and brain die. No, my definition of death does not include the death of awareness.
If belief in life after death is basic wish-fulfillment, than what's this about everyone who isn't "saved" by Jesus burning in hellfire for all eternity? Do you think all these people who adhere to this belief system, only care about fellow Christians/people who are probably "saved?" Don't you think it might cause them distress to think that some people they care about are going to hell or might already be in hell?
There is no Hell, that's just something the religious powers that be made up to control the masses.
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 02, 2018, 08:05:50 PM
There is no Hell, that's just something the religious powers that be made up to control the masses.
That said, it's not basic wish-fulfillment.
Other than that, it may have been a belief that served a purpose in a time when people were in general underdeveloped morally. I don't believe in hell myself.
Quote from: Birdy23 on December 02, 2018, 07:52:23 PM
Death means the physical body and brain die. No, my definition of death does not include the death of awareness.
Sounds like a pretty incomplete definition.
QuoteIf belief in life after death is basic wish-fulfillment, than what's this about everyone who isn't "saved" by Jesus burning in hellfire for all eternity?
Carrot, meet stick. Again, pretty basic stuff.
QuoteDo you think all these people who adhere to this belief system, only care about fellow Christians/people who are probably "saved?" Don't you think it might cause them distress to think that some people they care about are going to hell or might already be in hell?
Probably. The whole thing sounds pretty distressing to me.
Quote from: Birdy23 on December 02, 2018, 08:15:23 PM
That said, it's not basic wish-fulfillment.
Other than that, it may have been a belief that served a purpose in a time when people were in general underdeveloped morally. I don't believe in hell myself.
Heaven and hell are emotions. They apply to the here and now, depending on how you feel about that.
Welcome, Birdy. With a name like that, I'll have to keep my eye on you. lol
When theists talk about atheist "beliefs," it means they're trying to lower us to their level. Ken Ham does this a lot when he says, "I admire the evolutionist's faith." It takes the same amount of faith not to believe in gods as it does to not believe in fairies, unicorns, and Santa Clause. That is none at all. Skepticism in unsupported claims is the default position, and it's the only intellectually honest position.
The Big Bang isn't a belief either. We know that it happened. What caused the Big Bang, if there even was a cause, is up to debate. This doesn't really have anything to do with atheism, though. The only thing atheists have in common with each other is their lack of belief in any gods. Beyond that, they could be flat earthers, believe that crop circles are evidence that extraterrestrials have been visiting Earth, or even that an afterlife exists. It doesn't really matter what an atheist's positions on matters other than the existence of gods are. We have no creed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t3cBTb3xPc
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 03, 2018, 02:18:19 AM
We have no creed.
That's why I like the term "nullifidian" - it means one who has no creed. The word "atheist" has a lot of baggage.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on December 02, 2018, 03:35:03 PM
Welcome a board!
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Good board!
Quote from: Birdy23 on December 02, 2018, 06:08:09 PM
I believe that much of it is fictional.
Hi, I am also new here! In an attempt to understand your perspective a bit better, which parts of the Bible do you consider to be non-fictional?
Quote from: mathetes on April 13, 2019, 03:59:47 PM
Hi, I am also new here! In an attempt to understand your perspective a bit better, which parts of the Bible do you consider to be non-fictional?
Birdy hasn't been around in months. Why don't you ask your question in a new thread?
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on April 13, 2019, 04:26:43 PM
Birdy hasn't been around in months. Why don't you ask your question in a new thread?
Ah, yes, I didn't see that at first. I guess because reading her response piqued my curiosity, so the question was personalized towards her based on her particular belief(s).
Quote from: Birdy23 on December 02, 2018, 02:27:28 PM
Hi, I am Birdy and I came here looking for intelligent discussion on theistic arguments and related topics. Been wandering in some sort of Suburban desert away from the views of other people, formulated my ideas and would like to bounce them off other people. I'm not an atheistic, but I was when I was younger so I feel I get a better understanding of the belief system surrounding atheism than most Christian or "spiritual" people do. I do consider myself Christian, however my beliefs don't line up with typical Christians, and you will find that I don't share most of those views.
Welcome.