This is something that has bothered me for awhile, but it has taken AOC's recent harassment by some Democrats to help me put my finger on it, and then seeing this thread to really put it into words.
Every time an actual progressive makes waves, the response from the right is predictable; they are a communist, they are Marxists, they are radicals, bla bla blah. This is expected. What shouldn't be expected and yet seems incredibly common is how often other progressives and liberals will then start to agree with the conservatives, even though what they are agreeing on is condemning someone for holding the same positions they do... and more often than not the entire condemnation is based on either extremely bending the truth or outright lying about what actually happened.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1062761886796668934.html
Quote1. Something happened at the Capitol Tuesday to reaffirm my long-held view that liberals should stop believing what conservatives say liberals believe.
2. One of the biggest obstacles in the history of American liberalism has been this tendency among liberals to accept as true things liberalism’s enemies say about it and them.
3. Newly elected members of the US Congress arrived for orientation. @Ocasio2018spoke at a sit-in featuring about 200 people outside Nancy Pelosi’s office.
4. The “protest,†as it was called, was organized by an advocacy group aiming to raise awareness about climate change and to advocate for more green-energy jobs.
5. This was manna to Ocasio-Cortez, who made history as the youngest woman ever elected to Congress after unseating US Rep. Joe Crowley, the former No. 3 in the House Democratic leadership.
6. The 29-year-old Latina has been stumping for liberal candidates across the country, making liberal arguments in unapologetically liberal ways. That she spoke with activists demanding action from leading liberals should have come as no surprise to anyone any time anywhere.
7. But then came this bit of disinformation from the spokeswoman of Paul Ryan to Capitol Hill reporters, which set the tone for the entire day: "Huh, well this is unconventional," AshLee Strong wrote in an email. "The incoming speaker is getting protested by one of her freshman."
8. From this point onward, Ocasio-Cortez wasn’t doing what a young dynamic liberal legislator does. No, no, no! She was “protesting†Pelosi!
9. AshLee Strong paved the way for every Capitol Hill reporter to tell a story they had been wanting to tell even though the narrative†was based on a falsehood: that this unruly mob can’t be controlled.
10. This “narrative†drew the ire of liberals who would have otherwise cheered Ocasio-Cortez. It rekindled the battle between the youngs and the olds, between “centrists†and “leftists,†and between “insurgents†and “the establishment.â€
11. Worse, it inspired some liberals to trot out the old (often vaguely sexist) nomenclature: Ocasio-Cortez was grandstanding. She was showboating. She was this, that, and whatever. Too many liberals accepted as true what liberalism’s enemies said about it and them.
12. Thing is, when you actually listen to the women, a different picture comes to light. Not only was Ocasio-Cortez doing what young dynamic liberal legislators are supposed to doâ€"bring new energy and new ideas to the tableâ€"
13. she was charting her own course while forging alliances with established powers. She created a bridge between an energized under-30 base & the party’s leadership. She’ll likely be an invaluable ally as Pelosi plots a way forward.
14. Few can say they’ve accomplished more on their first day.
15. Bloomberg reported the incident was a challenge to “party unity.†The Times said earlier these renegades may be unwilling to “toe the party line.†Fox’s Laura Ingraham thrilled at the sight of Nancy Pelosi trying to wrangle newly elected “insurgents.â€None of it was true.
16. As is the case when women rise to power, people are eager to project onto them what they want to see, and are not listening to what they are actually saying.
17. Reporters can be trusted to frame politics in conservative terms. That’s what happened. Right-wing media can be trusted to cement the view that the Democrats are “a mob†and risk “overplaying their hand.†That’s what happened. But liberals ought to know better.
18. Here is what Ocasio-Cortez said to activists:Should Leader Pelosi become the next Speaker of the House, we need to tell her that we’ve got her back in showing and pursuing the most progressive energy agenda that this country has ever seen.
19. Later, to the news media:AOC: One of the things I admire so much about Leader Pelosi is that she comes from a space of activism and organizing. And so I think that she really appreciates civic engagement. What I’m here to do is to support the folks who are here. …
20. AOC: This is about uplifting the voice and the message of the fact that we need a Green New Deal and we need to get to 100 percent renewables because our lives depend on it. …***We are here to back [Pelosi] up.***
21. To which, Pelosi said: We are inspired by the energy and activism of the many young activists and advocates leading the way on the climate crisis …
22. Pelosi: We welcome the presence of these activists, and we strongly urge the Capitol Police to allow them to continue to organize and participate in our democracy.
23. Um, yeah, no. This was not a protest, as Republican AshLee Strong said. It was activism. This was not disunity. It was unity.
24. This isn’t the Tea Party. This isn’t a conservative party. It’s a liberal and democratic party. Reporters should cover it as such if only for the purpose of accurately representing reality.
25. But liberals weren’t listening either. They should have been. Instead, they accepted as true what liberalism’s enemies said about it and them.
For as long as I have been following progressive politics in America, this has been something I have seen happen time and time again, and frankly it's ridiculous. America is a conservative country, so it's no surprise our media leans conservative. But what progressives have got to start doing is looking at the actual reality of what is going on and stop bad mouthing our own representatives based on what we are told they said vs what they actually said and did.
I have never been a big fan of Pelosi, and I think in large part that is because I have been constantly fed a certain narrative about her without ever actually being exposed to her actions and her words. I certainly need to do much more research about her now to see how much I need to readjust my position on her.
And in today's blog of why America is the worst country in the world..
Maybe you should move to San Francisco, seems living in Texas isn't good for you stress wise.
Quote from: Munch on November 15, 2018, 05:49:46 PM
And in today's blog of why America is the worst country in the world..
Maybe you should move to San Francisco, seems living in Texas isn't good for you stress wise.
I'm explicitly saying that perhaps I am better represented than the media portrays and that those representatives need to be supported more heavily than they are by American progressives.
That is hardly complaining about America, infact that's one of the most positive things I have said about it. For the first time in a long time I at least have some representation in the government as well as am being exposed to some of the people who have been representing me but have been demonized.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 15, 2018, 05:55:17 PM
I'm explicitly saying that perhaps I am better represented than the media portrays and that those representatives need to be supported more heavily than they are by American progressives.
That is hardly complaining about America, infact that's one of the most positive things I have said about it. For the first time in a long time I at least have some representation in the government.
If we had a proportional representation where all parties are represented in the legislature ... you would have been represented before this ... so would I. I have been disenfranchised for 20 years now.
I don't trust the Dems for anything good ... but they are putting forward a "one payer health system" or else. If it does bankrupt the US, could it be more bankrupt than it is now?
We could just borrow the money from Jeff Bezos, since he makes $3183.33 every second. I think he could afford it.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 15, 2018, 07:01:51 PM
We could just borrow the money from Jeff Bezos, since he makes $3183.33 every second. I think he could afford it.
Given how Amazon treats their employees here in Texas (long hours, no airconditioning [again, mind you, in Central Texas where it can get over 100 degrees for weeks on end], etc) or the recent issues with their new HQs, I don't think I would shed to many tears about that.
Edit: Well, Amazon did just raise their minimum wage to $15 an hour, so that's something.
Quote from: Munch on November 15, 2018, 05:49:46 PM
And in today's blog of why America is the worst country in the world..
Maybe you should move to San Francisco, seems living in Texas isn't good for you stress wise.
Here's an idea. It's a bit strange, so bear with me.
Maybe...just maybe...other states should learn from what California's doing right and follow suit with similar policies. And similarly, the US should learn from other countries.
Or we could all just sit back and let things degrade to utter wretchedness and then lazily suggest that liberals take a hike from their homes if they want things to improve.
And yeah, living in Texas/Alabama/NC/SC/etc is stressful for liberals. And guess what - it's stressful for moderates and conservatives as well. Backwards policies hurt everybody - it's just a matter of degree.
Well Texas is full of nuts
Occasional Cortex has brilliant ideas. Watch and marvel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WZXnwSNanM
Quote from: pr126 on November 16, 2018, 03:39:33 AM
Occasional Cortex has brilliant ideas. Watch and marvel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WZXnwSNanM
*Ocasio-Cortez.
She is still an airhead. Just like her voters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GzSx-JqHZ8
Many women, and some men, are innumerate. They are good at bargain shopping, and then spending money. This is a consequence of home making in the past, rather than working in the coal mines with the real men. Their previous oppression really hurt their sense of reality.
It is really too early to complain about Congressman Cortez ... unless you are Aztec of course.
(https://www.crashmania.net/images/encyclopedia/characters/neo-cortex/neo-cortex-skylanders-imaginators.jpg)
Oh wait no, you said Cortez, not cortex.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYnJI8ssaSc
You make me think of this villain ... good thing the Powerpuff SJWs will protect us!
That's not the power puff girls, that's just a sad parody.
Quote from: Munch on November 16, 2018, 06:37:45 AM
That's not the power puff girls, that's just a sad parody.
Those aren't intellectuals, those are just sad NPCs.
Free Medicare for all, free education, free housing, AND open borders.
Quote from: pr126 on November 16, 2018, 08:24:23 AM
Free Medicare for all, free education, free housing, AND open borders.
Utopia ... and all the atheists cried ... AMEN!
Becoming clear that PM May has committed treason ... her deal would allow the EU to control all the external relations of GB, without any protest-ability from the Parliament. Brexit without any substance. Guy Fawkes anyone?
Did they ever find Jenkins' ear?
Quote from: pr126 on November 16, 2018, 08:24:23 AM
Free Medicare for all, free education, free housing, AND open borders.
What a horrible world that sounds like.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 16, 2018, 01:17:25 PM
Did they ever find Jenkins' ear?
There are good wars. A UK civil war, or US civil war, might qualify.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 16, 2018, 03:31:47 PM
What a horrible world that sounds like.
I know, you are Trotsky reincarnated. Just watch out for any guys named ... Stalin!!
Conservatives in the US are now calling to end HS, and replace it with internships in the capitalist economy. Usually internships these days are unpaid, so what they are saying is .. child labor, without pay aka child slavery. Too bad it won't be at the hands of your beloved Lenin. Basically extending our corrupt prison system to the general population.
Quote from: pr126 on November 16, 2018, 05:05:15 AM
She is still an airhead. Just like her voters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GzSx-JqHZ8
So far in this thread you are two for two on posts with personal attacks, one against someone you disagree with by mocking her name and one against her and anyone who agrees with her, and both times you have failed to actually back up said insults with any sort of argument or even defense of said insults.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 15, 2018, 07:01:51 PM
We could just borrow the money from Jeff Bezos, since he makes $3183.33 every second. I think he could afford it.
What a rare person earns does not really make much difference in the long run.
$3183.33 per second would be $1,673,158,248 per year. Even if he gave ALL that to the Govt, it wouldn't matter much. And he can't even spend it all. What is he going to do, buy Mexico? No offense to Mexico, it just came to mind.
Quote from: Cavebear on November 17, 2018, 12:14:52 AM
What a rare person earns does not really make much difference in the long run.
$3183.33 per second would be $1,673,158,248 per year. Even if he gave ALL that to the Govt, it wouldn't matter much. And he can't even spend it all. What is he going to do, buy Mexico? No offense to Mexico, it just came to mind.
Must all become billionaires ... in Zimbabwe money.
Quote from: pr126 on November 16, 2018, 08:24:23 AM
Free Medicare for all, free education, free housing, AND open borders.
Nothing that costs anything is free, so don't write nonsensical statements. What you are objecting to is SHARED costs for health care, education, housing, And open borders.
First, shared costs is the basis for all health care. We already do that, inefficiently, through commercial health insurance. We could do more, better, by expanding that and cutting out the profit centers. And if you want to scream that profit centers are good and should never die, I will start a candle business and claim recompense from the electric companies.
Second, education is generally considered a benefit to society. An educated populace is a benefit to all of us. Yes, there are private basic K-12 schools, but studies show they do worse overall at educating and cost more.
Third, housing is a basic demand for all people. Everyone has to be "somewhere" and a home of any sort makes people more legal and less likely to feel forced to commit crimes to survive.
Open borders are a different thing entirely. I agree that any nation has a right to control it's borders and immigration. That doesn't mean tricking people seeking asylum into crossing borders illegally and taking away their children. We brought much of that on ourselves by eliminating the abiilty of immigrants to apply for asylum at embassies and consulates. That was a mean dirty trick that leads to illegal crossings.
And you should consider that the US is facing a lack of workers to do jobs citizens will not apply for. We NEED immigrants. They are willing to start by working at the bottom. Do YOU want to clean hotel toilets? Do YOU want to pick grapes? They will. And their children will be just like us: doctors, lawyers, and store-owners.
Quote from: Cavebear on November 17, 2018, 03:20:04 AM
And you should consider that the US is facing a lack of workers to do jobs citizens will not apply for. We NEED immigrants. They are willing to start by working at the bottom. Do YOU want to clean hotel toilets? Do YOU want to pick grapes? They will. And their children will be just like us: doctors, lawyers, and store-owners.
Heard this claim many a time before. But what do you do, when said immigrants aren't even prepared to do that, and moved to another country on the belief of a free benefit system without doing the work?
Why would I pay an American $15.00 an hour when I can get a migrant to do the same job for $7.50?
Immigrants are people who enter America legally.
[Economic] Migrants are who cross the border illegaly.
See the dfference?
Quote from: pr126 on November 17, 2018, 04:27:09 AM
Why would I pay an American $15.00 an hour when I can get a migrant to do the same job for $7.50?
Immigrants are people who enter America legally.
[Economic] Migrants are who cross the border illegaly.
See the dfference?
Yeah, the line can be blurred sometimes.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/legal-immigrants-vs-illegal-immigrants-cutting-line/
Interesting read, illigals fucking things up for legal migration. Why is it fair to have people who respect the country their moving to enough to apply for a visa be cast off because some disrespectful asshats don't even care enough to do that?
If the person trying to move to that country won't ever fill out paperwork, that country owes them nothing.
Quote from: Munch on November 17, 2018, 04:22:06 AM
Heard this claim many a time before. But what do you do, when said immigrants aren't even prepared to do that, and moved to another country on the belief of a free benefit system without doing the work?
This is why the 19th century was necessary, and why we have to return to the 19th century ... colonize them over there, so they don't colonize us over here.
Quote from: Cavebear on November 17, 2018, 03:20:04 AM
Nothing that costs anything is free, so don't write nonsensical statements. What you are objecting to is SHARED costs for health care, education, housing, And open borders.
First, shared costs is the basis for all health care. We already do that, inefficiently, through commercial health insurance. We could do more, better, by expanding that and cutting out the profit centers. And if you want to scream that profit centers are good and should never die, I will start a candle business and claim recompense from the electric companies.
Second, education is generally considered a benefit to society. An educated populace is a benefit to all of us. Yes, there are private basic K-12 schools, but studies show they do worse overall at educating and cost more.
Third, housing is a basic demand for all people. Everyone has to be "somewhere" and a home of any sort makes people more legal and less likely to feel forced to commit crimes to survive.
Open borders are a different thing entirely. I agree that any nation has a right to control it's borders and immigration. That doesn't mean tricking people seeking asylum into crossing borders illegally and taking away their children. We brought much of that on ourselves by eliminating the abiilty of immigrants to apply for asylum at embassies and consulates. That was a mean dirty trick that leads to illegal crossings.
And you should consider that the US is facing a lack of workers to do jobs citizens will not apply for. We NEED immigrants. They are willing to start by working at the bottom. Do YOU want to clean hotel toilets? Do YOU want to pick grapes? They will. And their children will be just like us: doctors, lawyers, and store-owners.
We take in 3 million per year. You want that to be 3 billion? That isn't what was being argued. Give all your money away to your fellow man, humanitarian. Shiranu can't but you can.
Quote from: Munch on November 17, 2018, 05:15:55 AM
Yeah, the line can be blurred sometimes.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/legal-immigrants-vs-illegal-immigrants-cutting-line/
Interesting read, illigals fucking things up for legal migration. Why is it fair to have people who respect the country their moving to enough to apply for a visa be cast off because some disrespectful asshats don't even care enough to do that?
If the person trying to move to that country won't ever fill out paperwork, that country owes them nothing.
Ends justify the means, for all people, Left or Right. Because fairness is a value that humans don't have. In fact unfairness is the very basis of civilization (labor differentiation started 5000 years ago).
Quote from: Shiranu on November 15, 2018, 05:18:53 PM
This is something that has bothered me for awhile, but it has taken AOC's recent harassment by some Democrats to help me put my finger on it, and then seeing this thread to really put it into words.
Every time an actual progressive makes waves, the response from the right is predictable; they are a communist, they are Marxists, they are radicals, bla bla blah. This is expected. What shouldn't be expected and yet seems incredibly common is how often other progressives and liberals will then start to agree with the conservatives, even though what they are agreeing on is condemning someone for holding the same positions they do... and more often than not the entire condemnation is based on either extremely bending the truth or outright lying about what actually happened.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1062761886796668934.html
For as long as I have been following progressive politics in America, this has been something I have seen happen time and time again, and frankly it's ridiculous. America is a conservative country, so it's no surprise our media leans conservative. But what progressives have got to start doing is looking at the actual reality of what is going on and stop bad mouthing our own representatives based on what we are told they said vs what they actually said and did.
I have never been a big fan of Pelosi, and I think in large part that is because I have been constantly fed a certain narrative about her without ever actually being exposed to her actions and her words. I certainly need to do much more research about her now to see how much I need to readjust my position on her.
I make it a point to not give a rat's ass what a modern conservative thinks liberals believe, and you're as likely to get a fair appraisal of liberalism from a neocon as you are to get a fair appraisal of Islam from pr126. I do differentiate between types of conservatives â€" a classical Eisenhower/Ford/Goldwater conservative (what few remain) can be talked to
and with, even if no consensus is reached; a modern conservative/neocon cannot. You can't have a productive conversation with someone who starts (as I have seen done) with "You socialist cucks…"
By the same token, if you want to know what a conservative (modern or classical) believes, don't ask me, ask them. I can only give you what I think about their actual statements and actions.
As for Pelosi â€" on the one hand, I would like a more confrontational Speaker than she has been... but on the other hand, she managed to hold the House together to get the ACA passed. The Orange Disaster Area's promise of Republican votes for her speakership (https://www.vox.com/2018/11/17/18099910/trump-nancy-pelosi-speaker-republican-support) is a fine bit of political theater, although I strongly doubt he could deliver on the promise considering how viciously the GOP (and Lord Dampnut particularly) have attacked her, even as recently as two weeks ago.
Quote from: trdsf on November 17, 2018, 12:21:30 PM
I make it a point to not give a rat's ass what a modern conservative thinks liberals believe, and you're as likely to get a fair appraisal of liberalism from a neocon as you are to get a fair appraisal of Islam from pr126. I do differentiate between types of conservatives â€" a classical Eisenhower/Ford/Goldwater conservative (what few remain) can be talked to and with, even if no consensus is reached; a modern conservative/neocon cannot. You can't have a productive conversation with someone who starts (as I have seen done) with "You socialist cucks…"
By the same token, if you want to know what a conservative (modern or classical) believes, don't ask me, ask them. I can only give you what I think about their actual statements and actions.
As for Pelosi â€" on the one hand, I would like a more confrontational Speaker than she has been... but on the other hand, she managed to hold the House together to get the ACA passed. The Orange Disaster Area's promise of Republican votes for her speakership (https://www.vox.com/2018/11/17/18099910/trump-nancy-pelosi-speaker-republican-support) is a fine bit of political theater, although I strongly doubt he could deliver on the promise considering how viciously the GOP (and Lord Dampnut particularly) have attacked her, even as recently as two weeks ago.
I'm with TRDSF on this. I don't pay attention to popularity of politicians, I don't follow promises made in campaigns. I pay attention to what candidates did before running for a particular office. I watch what they have done, not what they say they WILL do. And I watch who they are beholden to. I look for stands they took before on difficult issues.
Etc...
Quote from: Cavebear on November 24, 2018, 02:43:10 PM
I'm with TRDSF on this. I don't pay attention to popularity of politicians, I don't follow promises made in campaigns. I pay attention to what candidates did before running for a particular office. I watch what they have done, not what they say they WILL do. And I watch who they are beholden to. I look for stands they took before on difficult issues.
Etc...
Good reasoning, actually. But it is important to not know that before voting, because it would discourage many so well qualified candidates (criminals).
Quote from: Baruch on November 24, 2018, 03:01:20 PM
Good reasoning, actually. But it is important to not know that before voting, because it would discourage many so well qualified candidates (criminals).
Check my new avatar statement, Baruch. I think you are a complete loon, but you nailed me on that.
You're not "a typical," so you're atypical.
LOL
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 24, 2018, 04:31:04 PM
You're not "a typical," so you're atypical.
LOL
What a massive difference a space makes!
Quote from: Cavebear on November 24, 2018, 04:25:50 PM
Check my new avatar statement, Baruch. I think you are a complete loon, but you nailed me on that.
Not a typical anything? Parents have their babies pose naked on top of you, for photos?
If you thought you were a palm tree instead, you would be tropical ;-)