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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Judaism => Topic started by: Baruch on November 02, 2018, 11:37:43 PM

Title: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Baruch on November 02, 2018, 11:37:43 PM
Sharing age old practices with fellow Jews, including the traditional blessing over the challah (bread) and wine.  I find it attractive to participate in some things that are over 2000 years old.  I don't hate the past.  I also don't fear the future.
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on November 03, 2018, 04:07:57 AM
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Sharing age old practices with fellow Jews, including the traditional blessing over the challah (bread) and wine.  I find it attractive to participate in some things that are over 2000 years old.  I don't hate the past.  I also don't fear the future.

I don't hate the past either.
But as a former catholic, waiting in line in a big cold building for a stale cracker and a sip of wine doesn't appeal to me, especially after being told I'm a bad person for thirty minutes straight.

Keeping traditions alive is fine, however. As long as they don't obstruct you or anyone from living their life to the fullest.
If it aids you to do just that. More power to you.
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Baruch on November 03, 2018, 11:10:13 AM
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I don't hate the past either.
But as a former catholic, waiting in line in a big cold building for a stale cracker and a sip of wine doesn't appeal to me, especially after being told I'm a bad person for thirty minutes straight.

Keeping traditions alive is fine, however. As long as they don't obstruct you or anyone from living their life to the fullest.
If it aids you to do just that. More power to you.

Yes, but what about anarchists and savages ... they hold nothing sacred ;-)  And yes, don't tell me I can't rob, rape and kill people ... that is denying freedoms ;-(  Just saying, you are a statistic of one.  Your neighbors per 20th century, aren't so nice, including Belgian fascists or supporters of the Belgian Congo.  I feel unsafe being opening Jewish in the US, how much more so in Europe.

Europeans have a rather strange view of religion relative to the US.  Many of us came here to get away from the other Europeans.  Often because we wanted to practice religion our own way, not because we were sans-culottes guillotining priests.  With the tie in between religion and monarchy, in liberalizing times, it is no surprise that atheism writ large happened in Europe first.

The majority of my ancestors are Catholic, but I feel no attraction ... that is just me.  Others like my older brother, feel different about it.

I am glad you are free to be non-religious.  And I assume that isn't a cover (for anyone here) for what should be called criminal activity, in any culture.  And anti-semitism is something I see on the Internet every day.  But I wouldn't out-law it.
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 03, 2018, 11:19:29 AM
'Worship'--What an ugly word.  What an ugly concept.
wor·ship
/ˈwərSHəp/Submit
noun
1.
the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
"the worship of God"
synonyms:   reverence, veneration, adoration, glorification, glory, exaltation; More
verb
1.
show reverence and adoration for (a deity); honor with religious rites.
"the Maya built jungle pyramids to worship their gods"
synonyms:   revere, reverence, venerate, pay homage to, honor, adore, praise, pray to, glorify, exalt,

All of that is ugly and unreasonable.  Why show any of that for a fiction?  Especially one constructed for the purpose of controlling the masses?  Superstition on steroids.  But I must admit, it has been and still is very effective.  The religious just love to be jerked around by the nose by their 'leaders' because I guess they are just unwilling to give any thought to what it is they do or believe in. 

But then, you were explaining why you worship.  You are free (because you are a theist) to believe in what you want.  Atheists are not that free in expressing their thoughts.
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Baruch on November 03, 2018, 11:25:17 AM
In my case, I don't worship.  I liturgy in traditional ways .. daven.  Christians and Muslims have their war gods to worship.  Constantine and Umar.

And in egomaniacal America, we only worship ourselves.  Money sometimes, but mostly ourselves.  Voyage of the ship of fools.
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 03, 2018, 11:31:21 AM
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In my case, I don't worship.  I liturgy in traditional ways .. daven.  Christians and Muslims have their war gods to worship.  Constantine and Umar.

And in egomaniacal America, we only worship ourselves.  Money sometimes, but mostly ourselves.  Voyage of the ship of fools.
Wait a minute--do you or do you not worship?  You said it both ways--but since you are a theist, I guess that is par for the course. 

Were you trying to say you like traditional stuff--or, at least, some.  My wife is like that.  She likes and appreciates some 'rites of life or passage'--like graduations, some church rituals, weddings, and most other social rituals.  I'm not so hot for them, but I do see that sometimes they have a role to play.
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Baruch on November 03, 2018, 11:39:56 AM
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Wait a minute--do you or do you not worship?  You said it both ways--but since you are a theist, I guess that is par for the course. 

Were you trying to say you like traditional stuff--or, at least, some.  My wife is like that.  She likes and appreciates some 'rites of life or passage'--like graduations, some church rituals, weddings, and most other social rituals.  I'm not so hot for them, but I do see that sometimes they have a role to play.

Well yes, many religious aren't devout.  They only attend for major life events.  My mother was like that.  She tried to avoid her own funeral though.  In orthodox Judaism, a man is required to daven 100 times per day ... basically continuously.  More than those Muslim pikers.

Grammar nazi much?   I could use technically correct jargon .. in Hebrew, but nobody here would understand.  And your dictionary definition hardly does justice to 5000 years of human cultural diversity.  Dictionaries are tools of thought control.
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 03, 2018, 11:46:33 AM
Grammar Nazi???  Ha, ha :))))  You say you worship in one post and say you don't in another.  Split personality much? 
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on November 03, 2018, 12:06:12 PM
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Yes, but what about anarchists and savages ... they hold nothing sacred ;-)  And yes, don't tell me I can't rob, rape and kill people ... that is denying freedoms ;-(  Just saying, you are a statistic of one.  Your neighbors per 20th century, aren't so nice, including Belgian fascists or supporters of the Belgian Congo.  I feel unsafe being opening Jewish in the US, how much more so in Europe.

Europeans have a rather strange view of religion relative to the US.  Many of us came here to get away from the other Europeans.  Often because we wanted to practice religion our own way, not because we were sans-culottes guillotining priests.  With the tie in between religion and monarchy, in liberalizing times, it is no surprise that atheism writ large happened in Europe first.

The majority of my ancestors are Catholic, but I feel no attraction ... that is just me.  Others like my older brother, feel different about it.

I am glad you are free to be non-religious.  And I assume that isn't a cover (for anyone here) for what should be called criminal activity, in any culture.  And anti-semitism is something I see on the Internet every day.  But I wouldn't out-law it.

What an odd response.
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Unbeliever on November 03, 2018, 01:19:04 PM
Odd you say!? From Baruch!? That sounded a lot less odd than much of his previous balderdash.
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Baruch on November 03, 2018, 01:28:56 PM
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Grammar Nazi???  Ha, ha :))))  You say you worship in one post and say you don't in another.  Split personality much?

Words were made for man, man wasn't made for words.  I can use any word I want, any way I want.  And it isn't necessarily inconsistent, just complicated.  You do the same, but I don't get upset over it.
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Baruch on November 03, 2018, 01:32:12 PM
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What an odd response.

Europeans don't know how Americans view them.  Americans don't know how Europeans view them.  We aren't the same, but yet are related.  Inside our own cultures, echo chamber is the norm.  For me it is fascinating ... what is it like to be French for example ... given that I am not.  Do Belgians have a spit personality?  Are they like Van Gough? (yes, he is Dutch, but that fits half of the Belgians).

People think I don't say what I mean, that I don't mean what I say.  That is hardly the case.  I can be sharp, because I don't like being dull.
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Baruch on November 03, 2018, 01:34:30 PM
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Odd you say!? From Baruch!? That sounded a lot less odd than much of his previous balderdash.

I will have you know, I am working hard to not lose all my hair (on my head).
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 03, 2018, 01:43:06 PM
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Words were made for man, man wasn't made for words.  I can use any word I want, any way I want.  And it isn't necessarily inconsistent, just complicated.  You do the same, but I don't get upset over it.
Actually, words were made by man for man.  Inconsistent--that is the way you (try to) communicate--but you are a theist, so you can't help yourself.
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on November 03, 2018, 02:35:58 PM
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Odd you say!? From Baruch!? That sounded a lot less odd than much of his previous balderdash.
Odd because nothing i said would have warranted it, not for lack of internal consitency.
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on November 03, 2018, 02:38:09 PM
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Europeans don't know how Americans view them.  Americans don't know how Europeans view them.  We aren't the same, but yet are related.  Inside our own cultures, echo chamber is the norm.  For me it is fascinating ... what is it like to be French for example ... given that I am not.  Do Belgians have a spit personality?  Are they like Van Gough? (yes, he is Dutch, but that fits half of the Belgians).

People think I don't say what I mean, that I don't mean what I say.  That is hardly the case.  I can be sharp, because I don't like being dull.

I don't think you don't mean what you say.
But, honestly, i don't think you are Sharp.
You're not dull though.

So. Now you know how i see you, american ;)
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Unbeliever on November 03, 2018, 02:51:11 PM
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I will have you know, I am working hard to not lose all my hair (on my head).
Feel triggered? Got a safe space?
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Baruch on November 03, 2018, 05:19:07 PM
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Actually, words were made by man for man.  Inconsistent--that is the way you (try to) communicate--but you are a theist, so you can't help yourself.

So?  And we use words as alternative means of warfare ... see Joseph Goebbels.  A problem develops when we consider some men, less than man.
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Baruch on November 03, 2018, 05:21:56 PM
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Odd because nothing i said would have warranted it, not for lack of internal consitency.

Context matters, you and I aren't the only ones posting, and you are not the only "other" poster I am thinking of.
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on November 03, 2018, 07:42:07 PM
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Context matters, you and I aren't the only ones posting, and you are not the only "other" poster I am thinking of.

No, but you were replying to my reply. In a conversation I tend to give the attention to my partner, whom I hope would show me the same kindness.
It's not something either of us is due, granted, but it is common curtosy. If you want to preach to the world I'll gladly hand you your soapbox.
But I'd prefer not to be one.
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 03, 2018, 09:12:18 PM
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So?  And we use words as alternative means of warfare ... see Joseph Goebbels.  A problem develops when we consider some men, less than man.
So? So.  Your theist beliefs muddle your thinking.  Words were not 'created' by any other than humans. (Although there is more and more evidence that other animals use their own versions of words); and humans were not created by anything supernatural and the words humans are wholly created by humans.  Of course words can create violence and war.  Do you find that surprising?  Rather than looking to Goebbels for violence in words and propaganda (of course he was a genius at propaganda) look to Newt Gengrich, or more recently, Trump and his entire staff.  The Repubs are very good at propaganda and sound bites and changing the meaning of words. 
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Baruch on November 04, 2018, 03:33:44 AM
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So? So.  Your theist beliefs muddle your thinking.  Words were not 'created' by any other than humans. (Although there is more and more evidence that other animals use their own versions of words); and humans were not created by anything supernatural and the words humans are wholly created by humans.  Of course words can create violence and war.  Do you find that surprising?  Rather than looking to Goebbels for violence in words and propaganda (of course he was a genius at propaganda) look to Newt Gengrich, or more recently, Trump and his entire staff.  The Repubs are very good at propaganda and sound bites and changing the meaning of words.

If you are a Vulcan, I want a picture ;-)

Is everything politics?  Is that the new Theory of Everything?
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 04, 2018, 09:23:44 AM
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If you are a Vulcan, I want a picture ;-)

Is everything politics?  Is that the new Theory of Everything?
Once again, I have no clue as to what you are talking about. 

You do seem the perfect repub.  Words were sounds used to help with communication.  But you would rather use them to muddle up the picture and to confuse.  Theists are usually pretty good at that kind of stuff.
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Baruch on November 04, 2018, 12:02:08 PM
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Once again, I have no clue as to what you are talking about. 

You do seem the perfect repub.  Words were sounds used to help with communication.  But you would rather use them to muddle up the picture and to confuse.  Theists are usually pretty good at that kind of stuff.

You wouldn't know a Republican in a MAGA hat ;-)  You have a monster under your bead, with a bad toupee.

No, you won't want communication, you want conversion.  Yet being here has sharpened my theism (sorry Mr Obvious).

What do you mean by what you post?  I consult my witch's cauldron with eye of newt and wing of bat ... oh, sorry, 4 days too late ;-))
Title: Re: What do I get out of worship?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on November 04, 2018, 01:25:37 PM
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No, you won't want communication, you want conversion.  Yet being here has sharpened my theism (sorry Mr Obvious).


No worries mate. I have no hopes of nor intention for pulling you from The Womb of theism.
As i said; if it doesn't Harm you nor anyone else, more power to ya.