It turns out that the Christian version of Hell isn't the only one:
QuoteToday, even people of the same religion often have different beliefs about Hell. Does it exist? Is it a literal place of punishment, or just a symbol of spiritual suffering? But those questions are really just the beginning. Throughout history, people have imagined vastly different scenarios for those who didn't do things quite right during life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VWb3ZZ1U3o
Nope. In Buddhism, hells are progressively hotter.
I recall in Big Trouble in Little China, there seemed like there were an awful lot of hells! LOL
Belief in any of this nonsense is ridiculous.
Let it go.
Which version of hell is most ridiculous? All of them.
Yet people do suffer in their own individual and collective hells, every day. Denial?
I find the very concept of Hell incredibly silly now that I'm an unbeliever. You're telling me that without a brain to process thoughts and feelings, and without a body with nerve endings, that after I die, my soul is magically teleported to another dimension where I am tortured for eternity...somehow. How? Does the soul process thoughts and pain? If so, then why did God bother creating the brain? How does an intangible soul even get tortured? Even the Bible says that the soul cannot be harmed by physical things. So is Hell full of spiritual torture devices? Is Hell's fire a ghost fire? It doesn't make the least bit of sense.
Quote from: Blackleaf on October 31, 2018, 02:30:20 AM
I find the very concept of Hell incredibly silly now that I'm an unbeliever. You're telling me that without a brain to process thoughts and feelings, and without a body with nerve endings, that after I die, my soul is magically teleported to another dimension where I am tortured for eternity...somehow. How? Does the soul process thoughts and pain? If so, then why did God bother creating the brain? How does an intangible soul even get tortured? Even the Bible says that the soul cannot be harmed by physical things. So is Hell full of spiritual torture devices? Is Hell's fire a ghost fire? It doesn't make the least bit of sense.
Materialism makes skepticism easier. But I was speaking of hell in this life, not in the future.
I don't know if it's just me, but as a former Christian, the Christian Hell ranks right up there as the worst. I've come to reject that images of burning in eternal flames, but I still linger a bit on the concept of Hell as so enormously bad, that it remains outside of my imagination, so I get a little extra fear from the notion of the unknowingly horrible.
The other 10 in the video certainly wouldn't be great alternatives, but I'm wondering about reactions of others. Did you tend to laugh at any of them for being ridiculous or even banal? The Viking one, Hell of freezing cold, is so obvious as formed from the tediousness of bitter exposure and clearly shows it's man made. Or did any of the others seem pointless, like "WTF?"
The Hell you learn to create yourself is probably the worst one for you. The Bible Hell, say examples from Revelations, if indeed that's a description of Hell, isn't all that scary. It's laughable. Dragons with 7 of this and 7 of that. I mean what so bad about 7 heads? It's absurd, but is that supposed to make it 7 times more worrisome? I imagine Hindus looking at Christians and scratching their heads over how the West comes up with such weird shit, while at the same time totally accepting their own weird shit.
How easily humans can believe or reject ideas of the absurd without any rational reasons for believing one, but not the other. Religion relies on this sort of mental processing to gain it's strength. Reason is the enemy of religion.
If I found a dragon with seven horns and seven tails, and 7 tongues of flame, I'd put the thing in a zoo so everyone could look at it and feed it marshmallows and bags of peanuts. Did you ever notice that there seems like there's only one kind of dragon? They seldom identify a species of dragon. It's always just "a dragon", and it's never given a Latin designation like dragonensis, improbablius.
Quote from: SGOS on October 31, 2018, 08:28:26 AM
If I found a dragon with seven horns and seven tails, and 7 tongues of flame, I'd put the thing in a zoo so everyone could look at it and feed it marshmallows and bags of peanuts. Did you ever notice that there seems like there's only one kind of dragon? They seldom identify a species of dragon. It's always just "a dragon", and it's never given a Latin designation like dragonensis, improbablius.
I've never heard any Latin names for dragons, but there multiple species of dragons, depending on the source. Common subtypes include wyrms (typically serpentine, with no limbs or wings), and wyvern (small, two legs, two wings, and not as intelligent as full dragons). In D&D, full dragons come in many varieties, usually named by color:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/69/6b/2e/696b2eafa55d3b7d20b5c007a94b35e4.jpg)
Also, the seven-headed dragon describes a hydra. These typically have the ability to grow new heads if one is cut off.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/warlock-of-the-magus-world/images/5/5e/Rl.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180117094328)
Typically, though, I expect most people's reaction to finding a dragon wouldn't be to classify it, but to yell, "Holy shit! A dragon!" Then trying not to get their flesh melted off their bones.
In Genesis, the word for serpent means dragon, not snake. And in Gematria, the code for serpent and messiah, are the same.
Quetzacoatl (http://dragons.wikia.com/wiki/Quetzalcoatl) is very much like a dragon.
Quote from: Blackleaf on October 31, 2018, 10:20:31 AM
I've never heard any Latin names for dragons, but there multiple species of dragons, depending on the source. Common subtypes include wyrms (typically serpentine, with no limbs or wings), and wyvern (small, two legs, two wings, and not as intelligent as full dragons). In D&D, full dragons come in many varieties, usually named by color:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/69/6b/2e/696b2eafa55d3b7d20b5c007a94b35e4.jpg)
Also, the seven-headed dragon describes a hydra. These typically have the ability to grow new heads if one is cut off.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/warlock-of-the-magus-world/images/5/5e/Rl.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180117094328)
Typically, though, I expect most people's reaction to finding a dragon wouldn't be to classify it, but to yell, "Holy shit! A dragon!" Then trying not to get their flesh melted off their bones.
Thanks. I did not know this.
Quote from: Unbeliever on October 31, 2018, 01:27:53 PM
Quetzacoatl (http://dragons.wikia.com/wiki/Quetzalcoatl) is very much like a dragon.
And very much like a messiah.
Vagina hell.
*shivers*
For the life of me, I cannot picture a scary hell, let alone the worst one. Sure, I can picture highly disturbing scenes, but that is because I have seen a lot of movies. Religions are the ancient gore literature. We grew up with gore as real life. We'd eat that at breakfast, lol.
I think this is about the religious doctrination imposed on a person as a child. I had none. It wouldn't work as an adult.
The real world is and always been worse than anything these morons have been making up for thousands of years.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on November 01, 2018, 04:35:51 AM
For the life of me, I cannot picture a scary hell, let alone the worst one. Sure, I can picture highly disturbing scenes, but that is because I have seen a lot of movies. Religions are the ancient gore literature. We grew up with gore as real life. We'd eat that at breakfast, lol.
I think this is about the religious doctrination imposed on a person as a child. I had none. It wouldn't work as an adult.
The real world is and always been worse than anything these morons have been making up for thousands of years.
Yes, it's pretty much about indoctrination. The religious texts are gore literature, but actually not that scary, because they are dopey like they were written by middle school students, so they don't illicit real fear. But introduce indoctrination and this changes. In my case, indoctrination by a well meaning grandmother as one of my earliest memories before I ever set foot in an actual church. It was done in her living room while I was standing next to her chair. Her description of Hell was worse than the Bible, but only because I was more aware of her own fear and sincere belief while she described it. Actually, her description of Hell may have been more laughable than the Bible. She described a fiery pit where the Devil would make you shovel coal into a furnace. I'm not sure why they needed a furnace in a fiery pit, but give me a break; I was only two. Her description came from our family's own life experience, as the building we lived in had two coal burning furnaces in the basement where I watched my father shovel coal on many occasions. Although, he never had my grandmother's Devil whipping him while he did it. I actually thought it looked like feeding the furnace was a fun thing to do.
She also explained that the pain was worse than anything I could imagine, which is why as I got older, I began concocting my own descriptions of Hell while trying to imagine something worse than what I could imagine, which can't really be done, since you can never get to the point that's worse than the worst you can imagine.
The key of course is whether you believe it's actually real. If you don't believe it, it's not scary at all. If you do believe, it's a different ball game entirely. And when you allow yourself the license to imagine your own Hell, rather than the rubbish described in the Bible, it can be unsettling. But I no longer have any fear or doubts that maybe an actual Hell really exists, so the whole thing just sounds like a cruel joke to me.
Indoctrination is the real reason for all religions. The original writers of said trash, had a reason behind what was written and mind control was one of the most important for them. I remember growing up Communism was the horrid horror out there--it was totalitarian in nature and scary as hell. Yet Christianity was and is a completely totalitarian way of belief. It makes communism look puny.
I keep forgetting Church works differently and people actually visit it by family on sundays. See mosque doesn't work that way. They'd love it to work that way, but it never does. They can't even manage that ffs.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 01, 2018, 09:17:27 AM
Indoctrination is the real reason for all religions. The original writers of said trash, had a reason behind what was written and mind control was one of the most important for them. I remember growing up Communism was the horrid horror out there--it was totalitarian in nature and scary as hell. Yet Christianity was and is a completely totalitarian way of belief. It makes communism look puny.
That is why the Catholic church weaponized fascism agains communism (both socialist). All classic fascism comes from Catholic countries. In Germany the Lutheran church dropped the ball. So ... you are opposed to society controlling you?
The confessional ... superior age old control. If you sin, go confess to the local priest about it.
In traditional villages, the village headman knows all, and is the local enforcer. The priest is his KGB.
We can create a worse hell here on earth, than any of the imaginary ones.
We are experts at it. And history to prove it.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on November 01, 2018, 12:15:32 PM
I keep forgetting Church works differently and people actually visit it by family on sundays. See mosque doesn't work that way. They'd love it to work that way, but it never does. They can't even manage that ffs.
But the mosque copies the Byzantine church, which copied the synagogue. The men in the main hall praying, and the women in an annex or balcony watching them. True family worship is post Reformation.
Quote from: Baruch on November 01, 2018, 12:45:13 PM
But the mosque copies the Byzantine church, which copied the synagogue. The men in the main hall praying, and the women in an annex or balcony watching them. True family worship is post Reformation.
It is not even that. That's the whole problem in a nutshell. An average muslim doesn't see a mosque unless he/she is visiting a historical one. They all pray at home. Also they are problematic places to visit for women and children. Very different than the church. No visual attraction, not a place to visit with family. Only men listening a -what do you call that?- the imam speaking. The style of prayer requires a big place, including the ablution before all the prayers. So there is never enough place and the whole thing takes a lot of time.
There isn't any kind of registry in mosques. Unless it is a very small community, you cannot keep track on who has been to the prayer or not. You cannot push people to come if there is not enough space. You cannot push women, because there is no place for them and it is inappropiate. Noone would even try.
It is not really a part of the society, is it?
So many things to write on this. Myeh.
There have been major sociological changes in religious practice ... the temple system, the church system ... both state supported, with support coming from both the 1% and the 99%. Zoroastrianism in Persia went thru a whole sea change from the Achaemenid period to the Sassanian period ... from elitism to populism. But there were always the lares and penates ... the private family religion too. With the later stages of Protestantism, the private religion (of like minded people) moved front and center. Public religion became less central. Synagogue Judaism, Mosque Islam and Catholic/Orthodox Christianity are public cults. You worship and are saved collectively as a community, not as families. Only intermittent gnostic movements have taken religion into the private sphere (in the monotheist context). Though some gnosticism (and "personal relationship with Jesus" is gnostic) has become populist. Taking religion out of the state, out of the institution, out of the community, out of clericalism ... is profoundly threatening to the status quo at all levels. This is essentially what I see John the Baptist representing. No wonder they decapitated him.
Here is he best version of Hell ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMwaiA581AQ
There is no hell because there is no deity. Either requires the other, and neither exists.
Quote from: Cavebear on November 03, 2018, 02:17:45 AM
There is no hell because there is no deity. Either requires the other, and neither exists.
You are forgetting Auschwitz. And that "Hell is other people". Yes, no deity required, just demi-gods of Satan.
Quote from: Baruch on November 03, 2018, 11:13:15 AM
You are forgetting Auschwitz. And that "Hell is other people". Yes, no deity required, just demi-gods of Satan.
Satan is a deity. But all deities are fiction. People created hell is just that--created by people.
Yeah, just like Soylent Green...
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 03, 2018, 01:40:52 PM
Yeah, just like Soylent Green...
Yeah--Charlton Heston got upset over it.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 03, 2018, 11:37:30 AM
Satan is a deity. But all deities are fiction. People created hell is just that--created by people.
Hitler ... fiction. Stalin ... fiction. Mao ... fiction. Devils all.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 03, 2018, 01:45:10 PM
Yeah--Charlton Heston got upset over it.
Pink slime ... it is real, and they quietly put it back in your food, after the initial protest.
I wish Trump was a fiction.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 03, 2018, 01:47:30 PM
I wish Trump was a fiction.
What are recreational drugs for? i would rather have you all spontaneously combust over President Gary Johnson.
Quote from: Baruch on November 03, 2018, 01:46:28 PM
Hitler ... fiction. Stalin ... fiction. Mao ... fiction. Devils all.
Much of your problem, as you just demonstrated, is that you simply cannot separate fact from fiction--you think they are one and the same.
Quote from: Baruch on November 03, 2018, 01:47:11 PM
Pink slime ... it is real, and they quietly put it back in your food, after the initial protest.
Pink slime huh? Is that some alien blob invading us by being ingested in our food?
He slimed me!
Pink slime producers sued ABC for releasing information about pink slime, saying it was a defamation of the product. ABC claims it never said the product was unsafe, but the packing industry says otherwise and are headed back to court now. The suit was originally asking for 1.9 billion in damages. The only article I could find regarding the settlement is that ABC coughed up a little less than 2 million. Other articles don't mention it. Pink slime was never taken off the market, although 3 of the four plants making it closed because of public outcry, and it was only banned by certain outlets, not everyone, but enough to close 3 plants.
The main consumer fears center around public safety, because the end product contains ammonium hydroxide. How much? We don't know. Older middle of the road reports called it "probably safe," as it was approved by the USDA, but we don't know how accurate that is. Some probably see the USDA approval as a green light. Others take the government agency with a grain of salt. Older reports did some taste test experiments between pure ground beef and burger containing the slime, and all that I read said that it didn't taste as good. Not horrible, just lacking. It's banned in both the UK and Canada.
The product never left the shelves, and there is no package labeling requirement, so just about any outlet can carry it, probably without even knowing it. Currently, the product is making a comeback, but I think mostly because no one knows if they are eating it, and many people think it's gone. But it was never really gone.
I used to love hamburger. Maybe my tastes have changed. Personally, I'm not worried about pink slime... well maybe a little, but I find enough bone fragments and connective tissue in burger now that I find it unpalatable. Sometimes at fast food joints, I get a vague taste of liver or maybe some other internal organs that are included with the meat (it's all beef or beef parts, right?). Corporations are very waste conscious, so they throw a lot of stuff into the grinder that I would have left with the gut pile. I just don't enjoy it anymore. I would love to find some butcher shop where I could get burger without the bone and cartilage and the other stuff which I'm so conscious of now, but almost everywhere, they sell the pre packaged stuff that they unload off the truck. It's cheaper and more profitable, but I'd be happy to pay another 50 cents a pound for the good stuff. I'd love an occasional juicy burger the way I remember them (possibly incorrectly, but I don't think so).
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 03, 2018, 01:49:16 PM
Much of your problem, as you just demonstrated, is that you simply cannot separate fact from fiction--you think they are one and the same.
Fact? Fiction? Virtue signaling. I don't claim to be a prophet, but if I did, it would be virtue signaling. Claiming to have facts is secular prophecy.
The Elite want you to eat pink slime and much else (that normally goes in pet food) including insects. That is because they consider you less than human, you are pets. And not the beloved kind either. FDA wants you dead. SEC wants you broke.
Quote from: Baruch on November 03, 2018, 05:23:53 PM
Fact? Fiction? Virtue signaling. I don't claim to be a prophet, but if I did, it would be virtue signaling. Claiming to have facts is secular prophecy.
The Elite want you to eat pink slime and much else (that normally goes in pet food) including insects. That is because they consider you less than human, you are pets. And not the beloved kind either. FDA wants you dead. SEC wants you broke.
Okay. Do you have a point?
Anyone who can read the history of our country knows this has been going on from our inception. Yet we extol the mogols--the industrialists--the big businesses who suck us dry. Trump is the latest rendition and I'm afraid he will ride the coattails of the average stupid amirkin into his dictatorship. But then--it can't happen here, can it.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 03, 2018, 09:31:19 PM
Okay. Do you have a point?
Anyone who can read the history of our country knows this has been going on from our inception. Yet we extol the mogols--the industrialists--the big businesses who suck us dry. Trump is the latest rendition and I'm afraid he will ride the coattails of the average stupid amirkin into his dictatorship. But then--it can't happen here, can it.
You sound like the perfect communist. We haven't been free since the coup of 1787. And America has been capitalist since Alexander Hamilton. You are over 200 years too late to change these facts. If you met an actual Hun or Mongol, you would know they don't wear three-piece suits.
the concept of hell is
different in different cultures.
for an eskimo, the hell would be a cold place and for an arab the hell
would be a very hot place.
We haven't been 'free' from the very beginning of the revolution. But we were freer and more democratic than who we rebelled against, directly after the revolt. And from that time to now, big business has been trying to change that; don't owe allegiance to the king, but to the company store. Unregulated capitalism is as dangerous as unregulated communism or any other ism.
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on November 04, 2018, 12:11:06 PM
the concept of hell is
different in different cultures.
for an eskimo, the hell would be a cold place and for an arab the hell
would be a very hot place.
Correct. Hell is a Scandinavian word, it means a cold place. N Europeans adopting Christianity mixed metaphors totally. For a Greek it is Hades. For a Roman it is Pluto. For a Jew it is Sheol. Christians got the idea of a lake of fire from Mt Etna in Sicily (with guest appearance by Mt Vesuvius). For them, they should use the word "Vulcan".
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 03, 2018, 11:37:30 AM
Satan is a deity. But all deities are fiction. People created hell is just that--created by people.
I looked for the LIKE button without success. Because you are right down my alley on this. Consider yourself "liked". For what it is worth...
Quote from: Cavebear on November 09, 2018, 11:11:28 AM
I looked for the LIKE button without success. Because you are right down my alley on this. Consider yourself "liked". For what it is worth...
One of the things that has bothered me is that 'strict' constitutionalist' interpretation is that we'd have to go back to slavery and only allow landed white men to vote. "All men were created equal......." really means that women were not equal and that people of color were not equal and propertyless people were not equal. We are still fighting some of those battles.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 09, 2018, 11:51:23 AM
One of the things that has bothered me is that 'strict' constitutionalist' interpretation is that we'd have to go back to slavery and only allow landed white men to vote. "All men were created equal......." really means that women were not equal and that people of color were not equal and propertyless people were not equal. We are still fighting some of those battles.
That women and minorities were not considered "men" in a legal sense is one of those things of history. The law was the law, after all. And who could blame lawyers for supporting "The Law"
And that is the way the US Supreme Court will rule with fanatic predisposition. By equoutine and honest views, never mins that thereeany politics invilved. Let all the roofs fail...
Quote from: Cavebear on November 09, 2018, 11:11:28 AM
I looked for the LIKE button without success. Because you are right down my alley on this. Consider yourself "liked". For what it is worth...
I gave the post an extra like, just for you. >:)
Quote from: Blackleaf on November 09, 2018, 12:11:37 PM
I gave the post an extra like, just for you. >:)
Thank you and I hope the post added to everyones' appreciation of sarcasm.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 09, 2018, 11:51:23 AM
One of the things that has bothered me is that 'strict' constitutionalist' interpretation is that we'd have to go back to slavery and only allow landed white men to vote. "All men were created equal......." really means that women were not equal and that people of color were not equal and propertyless people were not equal. We are still fighting some of those battles.
Exactly correct regarding "original interpretation". "original interpretation" denies the whole point of amendments and court interpretation of what the law means. Can't see any future in that.
On the other hand, making major changes without making an amendment, is rebellion. Just ask the seceding states. Refusal to enforce the law, rather than repeal it ... is malfeasance.
Quote from: Baruch on November 09, 2018, 12:50:01 PM
Exactly correct regarding "original interpretation". "original interpretation" denies the whole point of amendments and court interpretation of what the law means. Can't see any future in that.
On the other hand, making major changes without making an amendment, is rebellion. Just ask the seceding states. Refusal to enforce the law, rather than repeal it ... is malfeasance.
There is hope for you yet... You held two conflicting thoughts in your mind without your head exploding. Or should we call for a cleaning crew...?
Quote from: Cavebear on November 09, 2018, 02:27:10 PM
There is hope for you yet... You held two conflicting thoughts in your mind without your head exploding. Or should we call for a cleaning crew...?
The law is an ass ... old saying. It is inherently self contradictory.
Quote from: Baruch on November 09, 2018, 06:08:41 PM
The law is an ass ... old saying. It is inherently self contradictory.
Indeed. There is always a conflict between justice and law. Justice sometimes errs in the decision of the judge and no judge is perfect; law can sometimes be harsh in the technical application of it's rigid rules. Neither way is perfect. But justice should always remain supreme. As no computer program is perfect, no legal program can be either. Justice is the human mind considering difficult situations.
Quote from: Cavebear on November 14, 2018, 05:50:54 PM
Indeed. There is always a conflict between justice and law. Justice sometimes errs in the decision of the judge and no judge is perfect; law can sometimes be harsh in the technical application of it's rigid rules. Neither way is perfect. But justice should always remain supreme. As no computer program is perfect, no legal program can be either. Justice is the human mind considering difficult situations.
What people want isn't justice, they want vengeance against their perceived enemies. The law is the compromise between different legal mafiosi arguing how to cut up the pie. On behalf of their constituents .. of course.