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Humanities Section => Political/Government General Discussion => Topic started by: Shiranu on October 07, 2018, 12:05:37 AM

Title: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Shiranu on October 07, 2018, 12:05:37 AM
This is one of many times I wish I had stayed in better contact with Druken, to see just how accurate this video is. From the outside looking in, it fit's all I have seen so far... but it would be nice to have a direct source to collaborate that with. I will have short, titled summaries for certain parts if one does not wish to watch the video.

I also want to say that I, I would assume very transparently, frame it in a way that is relatable to America's current situation... because we see and understand the world based upon the part of the world we live in.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD3lZZWLV9o


0:00 - 2:00 - Erdogan's popularity

- Despite human rights violations, the imprisonment of over 100,000 "dissenters", installing corrupt and cronyist subordinates and being openly critical of the media and "secularlists" (Turkey's equivalent of "the left"), Erdogan has managed to win the popular vote thanks to his populism that stokes the fears of religious conservatives and his status as a savvy businessman who bolstered Turkey's economy.


2:00 - 3:50 - Ergenkon and the "Deep State"


- Targeting secularlists (labeling them the "deep state"), Erdogan used this as an excuse to delegitimise at best and arrest and try at worst political opponents, the media, intellectuals... the "elite", whom his base of religious conservatives despise.
- These conservatives have long been resentful of the "elite establishment" whom they believed were destroying their culture and their religious values. The secular intellectuals were the true enemy to Turkish identity, and further drove a wedge between the social and political classes.
- This lead to more people switching to Erdogan's side, as they viewed him as someone who was finally sticking up to the "secularists" who were the enemy, and he became someone who could do no wrong in their eyes thanks to this, his economic policies and his toughness on crime.


4:10 - 5:30 - The Gezi Park Protests and the Media's Response


- In protest of Erdogan's presidency disregarding the environment, the privatization of public spaces and services, gentrification, an estimated seven million plus Turks protested against Erdogan, with thousands being seriously injured in the resulting crackdown.
- Despite it being one of the largest protest movements in Western history, CNN Turk and other major news outlets ignored the story because it made Erdogan look bad, and this is largely because Erdogan and his party have relentlessly attempted to discredit to the press and arrested them (Turkey now has the most journalists jailed in the world).
- This has left 90% of the media being considered "Pro-Erdogan".


5:50 - 6:50 - The Purges in the Name of "National Security", "Anti-Terrorism" and Defeating the "Deep State"


- 150,000 people, following the coup attempt, were arrested by the government, with many of them being teachers, professors, educated individuals and of course just anyone who questioned the Erdogan regime.
- He was likewise given more and more political power in the name of fighting these threats.


6:55 - 9:00 - The Turkish Economy Falters and the People's Response


- Inflation and national debt have begun to balloon, and this has fired up the opposition party. However in response, Erdogan and the AKP have moved the elections forward to strike before the majority felt the effects of this.
- While Erdogan won, there are many questions over the legitimacy of the election since many of the states were controlled by Erdogan's personal appointments and loyalists.
- He also has to stay in power because he has multiple allegations against him and his family that would likely have him end up in jail without the protection the presidency offers him.


9:35 - Closing -  The Speed of this Autocracy


- In less than 20 years, Erdogan has transformed the country into a stable democracy into an "elected autocracy", and has planted very deep roots of corruption and authoritarianism into the legal system.
- By using the facade of opposition parties that "have power" (when they really don't), he has managed to brush off allegations of the country being an autocracy, but nevertheless all the party lies with the AKP and the party follows what Erdogan says.




----------------------------------------


The United States and Turkey are two very, very different countries, but we share more in common than we have differences. It would be wise to look at the path Turkey is taking and realise that many of those "horrible" things they do are exactly the same thing the GOP (particularly the more radical right) have been working towards here in the States for years now.

We may have more fail safes in place, we may be more diverse (though Turkey is an extremely diverse country itself), and these changes may not hit us as hard or as fast as they can in Turkey, but that doesn't stop them from causing immense amount of harm. And the bigger the entity, if it does begin to fall, is much harder to slow down and does far more damage.

So much of the rhetoric used by Erdogan is the exact same rhetoric used by the radical right, even by posters here... some of it with a different name ("secularist" vs "leftists"), but others word for word ("deep state", "establishment", "fake news"). This is why it's important to call that rhetoric out any time you see it; by letting it stand you only give it legitimacy.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 02:53:46 AM
Turkey should be kicked out of NATO today.  They are are autocratic and murderous as all other Middle East nations.  Crazy too.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 04:07:00 AM
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Turkey should be kicked out of NATO today.  They are are autocratic and murderous as all other Middle East nations.  Crazy too.

I would agree, but the Dardanelles says ... no.  Geography makes them important, for over 100 years now.  If you ignore geography and choose allies based on if you like them or not ... that is pretty childish.

Shiranu - is your point, that the culture of the US is based on Central Asian pastoral imperialism?  Or that Trump will reestablish the Ottoman Sultanate in the US?

BTW - I am not anti-Turkish.  I think they are misunderstood, they make a convenient boogie-man.  That and Lawrence of Arabia totally propagandized against them.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 05:07:08 AM
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I would agree, but the Dardanelles says ... no.  Geography makes them important, for over 100 years now.  If you ignore geography and choose allies based on if you like them or not ... that is pretty childish.

Shiranu - is your point, that the culture of the US is based on Central Asian pastoral imperialism?  Or that Trump will reestablish the Ottoman Sultanate in the US?

BTW - I am not anti-Turkish.  I think they are misunderstood, they make a convenient boogie-man.  That and Lawrence of Arabia totally propagandized against them.

Only said Turkey is not NATO material...  They were close for a while but just another Mid east nuts nation now.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 08:42:26 AM
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Only said Turkey is not NATO material...  They were close for a while but just another Mid east nuts nation now.

Germany, France etc aren't Nato material either ;-)
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 10:21:50 AM
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Germany, France etc aren't Nato material either ;-)
They are the very substance or it in Europe. 
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 11:31:04 AM
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They are the very substance or it in Europe.

For a Franco-file or Germano-file.  I am indifferent except to the British.  And I know they are false friends.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 12:33:02 PM
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For a Franco-file or Germano-file.  I am indifferent except to the British.  And I know they are false friends.
I like a German-Franco-Brit Europe.  But all of Asia is completely messed up.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 01:34:31 PM
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I like a German-Franco-Brit Europe.  But all of Asia is completely messed up.

China is trying to make a silk road out of a sow's ear ;-)
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 02:15:19 PM
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China is trying to make a silk road out of a sow's ear ;-)

And the US made hay from the destruction of Europe after WWII.  So?  Trade control moves along and depends of goods.  The US doesn't make much these days.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 02:16:49 PM
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And the US made hay from the destruction of Europe after WWII.  So?  Trade control moves along and depends of goods.  The US doesn't make much these days.

We make weapons and trouble.  We were under tenterhooks regarding an invasion by Nato by the Warsaw Pact.  Would the W Europeans, who are mostly Socialists, fight the Warsaw Pact, or betray the US?
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 02:19:19 PM
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We make weapons and trouble.  We were under tenterhooks regarding an invasion by Nato by the Warsaw Pact.  Would the W Europeans, who are mostly Socialists, fight the Warsaw Pact, or betray the US?

I seriously doubt that the US is going to be invaded by NATO.  We have most of the armaments.  And if Europe wants to take over itself, good.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 02:31:29 PM
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I seriously doubt that the US is going to be invaded by NATO.  We have most of the armaments.  And if Europe wants to take over itself, good.

No, not invasion.  Betrayal of US forces in Europe.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 02:33:18 PM
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No, not invasion.  Betrayal of US forces in Europe.

By leaving?  Or by staying?  Either one could be bad.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 02:36:16 PM
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By leaving?  Or by staying?  Either one could be bad.

Cold War, not today.  The French and Germans would be shooting our forces in Europe, in the back.  British socialists also.  Most of Europe is 5th columnists for Karl Marx.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 04:04:26 PM
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Cold War, not today.  The French and Germans would be shooting our forces in Europe, in the back.  British socialists also.  Most of Europe is 5th columnists for Karl Marx.

You have such a depressing view of the world.  On the other hand, if it weren't for Russia, I wouldn't want the US to be in Europe either.

Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 07:44:43 PM
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You have such a depressing view of the world.  On the other hand, if it weren't for Russia, I wouldn't want the US to be in Europe either.

Yes, we are the cat's paw of British Imperial policy.  Talley ho!
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Cavebear on October 10, 2018, 01:32:21 AM
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Yes, we are the cat's paw of British Imperial policy.  Talley ho!

British Imperial policy is SO "yesterday".  Except in so many places.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Baruch on October 10, 2018, 05:19:46 AM
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British Imperial policy is SO "yesterday".  Except in so many places.

The best kind of policy, since Americans have no ideas of their own.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Cavebear on October 10, 2018, 01:30:00 PM
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The best kind of policy, since Americans have no ideas of their own.

Americans have no ideas.  Right.  Declaration Of Independence, Constitution... 
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Hydra009 on October 10, 2018, 01:48:01 PM
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Turkey should be kicked out of NATO today.  They are are autocratic and murderous as all other Middle East nations.  Crazy too.
No kidding.  Even if Turkey didn't have a bunch of horrific internal issues, their foreign diplomacy is abysmal (even by American standards).  Remember when Fumbles shot down a Russian fighter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown) and Vozhd Putin and Caliph Erdogan got into an escalating spat that could've potentially resulted in open war between Turkey and Russia, thereby dragging NATO into war with Russia - imagine for a second nuclear-armed countries exchanging salvos.  Absolutely batshit.

That and Turkish goons brutally attacking Americans on American soil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clashes_at_the_Turkish_Ambassador%27s_Residence_in_Washington,_D.C.).  It's amazing that any Turkish officials are still allowed in American territory after pulling crap like that.

They say the enemy of my enemy is my friend.  Those people are complete idiots.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Cavebear on October 10, 2018, 01:57:14 PM
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No kidding.  Even if Turkey didn't have a bunch of horrific internal issues, their foreign diplomacy is abysmal (even by American standards).  Remember when Fumbles shot down a Russian fighter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown) and Vozhd Putin and Caliph Erdogan got into an escalating spat that could've potentially resulted in open war between Turkey and Russia, thereby dragging NATO into war with Russia - imagine for a second nuclear-armed countries exchanging salvos.  Absolutely batshit.

You just HAD to say "even by American standards" , didn't you?    I would object to say we sure damn aren't the worst and better than most. 
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Hydra009 on October 10, 2018, 02:00:32 PM
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I would object to say we sure damn aren't the worst and better than most.
Just heading off the inevitable tu quoque "rebuttal".
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Cavebear on October 10, 2018, 02:08:14 PM
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Just heading off the inevitable tu quoque "rebuttal".

You and Baruch should talk a lot more.  Privately.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Hydra009 on October 10, 2018, 02:35:18 PM
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You and Baruch should talk a lot more.
I'd rather slam my car door on my head.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Cavebear on October 10, 2018, 03:11:11 PM
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I'd rather slam my car door on my head.

Can I help?  And I mean that by just knowing where hood holders are.  (koff, koff)...
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: SoldierofFortune on October 10, 2018, 04:32:02 PM
Let me reveal the reality; Turkland's ruling party AKP were founded with the permission of USA and it is a project party... I mean it services to a project: greater middle east project.

It is understood that -although erdogan is an elected leader- he is working for the usa... It is not a conspiracy theory...
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: SoldierofFortune on October 10, 2018, 04:34:41 PM
Because of the massive disinformation in the usa, i didnt know that americans are not aware of what is going on in the world...
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Cavebear on October 10, 2018, 04:36:05 PM
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Let me reveal the reality; Turkland's ruling party AKP were founded with the permission of USA and it is a project party... I mean it services to a project: greater middle east project.

It is understood that -although erdogan is an elected leader- he is working for the usa... It is not a conspiracy theory...

The sad thing is that Turkey ALMOST became a functioning democracy.  They came SO CLOSE...
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Cavebear on October 10, 2018, 04:37:12 PM
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Because of the massive disinformation in the usa, i didnt know that americans are not aware of what is going on in the world...

We'll get past that...
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: SoldierofFortune on October 10, 2018, 04:50:21 PM
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The sad thing is that Turkey ALMOST became a functioning democracy.  They came SO CLOSE...

After Ataturk the decline of turkland began... The young turkish state's democracy improvment remained limited in his lifetime. After he died the external(non national) powers started keeping the power(by deep state and nato) in their hands.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: SoldierofFortune on October 10, 2018, 04:54:25 PM
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We'll get past that...

Upper class does not want the commoners to wake up.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Cavebear on October 10, 2018, 05:16:21 PM
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Upper class does not want the commoners to wake up.

It takes a democratic base to support a democracy.  Turkey had an "insuffiency".
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Baruch on October 10, 2018, 08:41:45 PM
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I'd rather slam my car door on my head.

CGI is your friend.  I would love one of Hillary turning into a Jackie-o-lantern.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Baruch on October 10, 2018, 08:43:07 PM
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Americans have no ideas.  Right.  Declaration Of Independence, Constitution...

British ideas.  All the smart people, were Tories, who left after 1783.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Baruch on October 10, 2018, 08:44:04 PM
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Just heading off the inevitable tu quoque "rebuttal".

The butts have it.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on November 10, 2018, 09:23:00 AM
I'm rather concerned about DrunkenShoe. We had kept in touch for a while then she just fell off the radar completely about a year ago. Has anyone heard anything at all from her this past year?
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Baruch on November 10, 2018, 09:58:49 AM
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I'm rather concerned about DrunkenShoe. We had kept in touch for a while then she just fell off the radar completely about a year ago. Has anyone heard anything at all from her this past year?

She has been posting here just this past week.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: SGOS on November 10, 2018, 10:07:12 AM
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I'm rather concerned about DrunkenShoe. We had kept in touch for a while then she just fell off the radar completely about a year ago. Has anyone heard anything at all from her this past year?
I thought you had fallen off the radar too.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: drunkenshoe on November 10, 2018, 10:20:00 AM
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I'm rather concerned about DrunkenShoe. We had kept in touch for a while then she just fell off the radar completely about a year ago. Has anyone heard anything at all from her this past year?

I am here, APA. I am OK.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: drunkenshoe on November 10, 2018, 10:59:28 AM
Yes, what has been going on in Turkey is completely cut out of the world politics, esp American policy, right guys? And Turkey shot a war plane belonged to fucking Russia, no less, without the knowledge of any Nato country, esp. the US to begin with, just because they violated the air space. Pfffft.

You are still on about the rouge middle east dictator against America plot? Seriously? Guys...lol. 

Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Baruch on November 10, 2018, 12:52:51 PM
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Yes, what has been going on in Turkey is completely cut out of the world politics, esp American policy, right guys? And Turkey shot a war plane belonged to fucking Russia, no less, without the knowledge of any Nato country, esp. the US to begin with, just because they violated the air space. Pfffft.

You are still on about the rouge middle east dictator against America plot? Seriously? Guys...lol.

I figure anything in print, in any language or medium, is lies.  The world is ruled by Satan, father of lies.  So maybe al-Assad is a nice guy after all.  If America is against Putin ... then I have to think, he is a good guy also.  America is more feral than Turkey, any day.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: drunkenshoe on November 10, 2018, 02:30:24 PM
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I figure anything in print, in any language or medium, is lies.  The world is ruled by Satan, father of lies.  So maybe al-Assad is a nice guy after all.  If America is against Putin ... then I have to think, he is a good guy also.  America is more feral than Turkey, any day.

Lol, Baruch. Forget about it, I am having this conversation since I joined this forum for the first time back in 2010. Closing in on a decade. I really don't have the energy and I think I don't care any more. I don't mean to be rude. It's just... good guys, bad guys. *Rolls eyes.
Title: Re: Erdogan and Autocratic Turkey
Post by: Cavebear on November 14, 2018, 03:55:53 PM
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Lol, Baruch. Forget about it, I am having this conversation since I joined this forum for the first time back in 2010. Closing in on a decade. I really don't have the energy and I think I don't care any more. I don't mean to be rude. It's just... good guys, bad guys. *Rolls eyes.

  You could start a blog...  Getting the pictures down to size alone would take up a lot of your time.  ;)