Its been one of the longest examples of the LGBT using supposed characters as an example of a same sex couple living together, even though the show never hinted at them being anything besides friends.
Well now the characters creator Frank Oz came forward and confirms no, they are not.
And people aren't happy about it.
(http://i.imgur.com/Bpplp2u.jpg)
They are gay, not Gay? Guess the muppets out there can be triggered by anything. Next thing you will be telling me that Batman isn't a pedophile.
QuoteWell now the characters creator Frank Oz came forward and confirms no, they are not.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/19/17879916/bert-ernie-gay-sesame-street-mark-saltzman-controversy
QuoteAccording to Saltzman, during his 15-year tenure with the show, he modeled Bert and Ernie after his own romantic relationship with the late Arnold Glassman, even going so far as to incorporate their real-life quirks into his interpretation of the characters. Adorable!
The guy who actually wrote for the characters said they were gay, and I think he is a bit more important than the guy who came up with the concept. Their actions are what matter at the end of the day, and their actions were written to be "gay".
Also, if you read the initial press release... it's a train wreck. It talks about how none of the puppets have any sort of sexual orientation, which is obvious bullshit if you know about Kermit/Ms. Piggy or Oscar/Grundgetta (or the Counts fulfilling the Dracula stereotype and knowing many women).
They went back and removed any mention of sexual orientation in their next release, perhaps realising that they had just stuck their foot in their mouth... so frankly their opinion on what the characters are or aren't is somewhat irrelevant at this point.
Their actions showed that homophobia does still run in modern society, even amongst "progressive" programming like Sesame Street they have to toe certain lines to avoid pissing people off. If they hadn't started by making a simply factually wrong statement and then continued to contradict the characters' writer reason for writing them the way then did, that would be one thing. They just dropped the ball.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_and_Ernie
Created by frank oz and Jim Henson
I think their creator has a bigger say on the characters personality then someone simply puppeteering them
Quote from: Shiranu on September 21, 2018, 07:15:22 AM
https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/19/17879916/bert-ernie-gay-sesame-street-mark-saltzman-controversy
The guy who actually wrote for the characters said they were gay, and I think he is a bit more important than the guy who came up with the concept. Their actions are what matter at the end of the day, and their actions were written to be "gay".
So according to you, that means making captain america into a hidden Nazi is perfectly acceptable, despite his creator being Jewish?
Also Dumbledore was never written as gay in the movies, but later his creator said he actually was gay. Just because someone could go over the movies claiming there is no evidence of him being gay, that doesn't matter, the original writer of the character said he is gay.
The creator of the character has more weight in what said character is, especially when said creator is still alive to say it, then what a writer who writes about it or has their interpretation of the character.
From Josh Barro's Twitter:
Bert and Ernie aren't a couple. They're exes who still live together and whose excessive emotional involvement with each other prevents them from forming new, healthy romantic relationships.
Ernie: I don't have to go out if it's weird.
Bert: No, you're single. Go dance up a storm!
Ernie: It's literally just a book club.
Bert: Book club... warehouse party... whatever. You don't owe me anything.
Ernie: ... okay...
Bert: I'll just die here alone, it's fine. Go have fun!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DX-kncwU0AE6C2g.jpg)
The Bert & Ernie being gay situation illustrates how people different people approach LGBTQ issues. I see the ambiguity of their relationship as much queerer, and a lot more fun, than having them be overtly gay. Other people want representation. As a gay kid, I didn't look to puppets for affirmation, I looked to adults. I wanted to see that adults treated LGBTQ people as normal human beings.
(https://img.thedailybeast.com/image/upload/c_crop,d_placeholder_euli9k,h_1440,w_2560,x_0,y_0/dpr_2.0/c_limit,w_740/fl_lossy,q_auto/v1537312883/180918-teeman-bert-ernie-her_ps1tue)
I wonder if anyone ever asked if Oscar and Felix were gay?
Looks can be deceiving but this is a kids show. So I doubt the creator mad a few hints on purpose, maybe a mistake or too when the characters were in bed together.
The thing that they are gay was obvious from adult standpoints but children say thy're friends see. All about prospective.
Just saying that for straight puppets, they spend alot of time with something shoved up their rears.
(And yes. I know not all gay men like anal and there are straight people who do. It's a Joke.)
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on September 21, 2018, 02:48:04 PM
Just saying that for straight puppets, they spend alot of time with something shoved up their rears.
(And yes. I know not all gay men like anal and there are straight people who do. It's a Joke.)
I'm so monumentally offended by this statement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSObmZLRIEk
Damn! A primal scream from a frog!
QuoteSo according to you, that means making captain america into a hidden Nazi is perfectly acceptable, despite his creator being Jewish?
No, and I don't think I should have to explain to you the fundamental differences between a hateful ideology and a biological condition.
QuoteAlso Dumbledore was never written as gay in the movies, but later his creator said he actually was gay. Just because someone could go over the movies claiming there is no evidence of him being gay, that doesn't matter, the original writer of the character said he is gay.
Firstly, Harry Potter started as a series of books which J.K. Rowling had complete creative control over, which is different than a muppet created by one person and then having all it's actions and speech written by another.
Secondly, there is no evidence that Dumbledore is gay or straight so it is entirely in the hands of the creator to decide that one. His sexual orientation doesn't clash with the cannon in one way or another, so it is really irrelevant.
QuoteThe creator of the character has more weight in what said character is, especially when said creator is still alive to say it, then what a writer who writes about it or has their interpretation of the character.
Why?
If I created a character right now, and then delegated it's writing to you, why would my opinion be more important than yours (when you are putting me work into the character development anyways)?
Now imagine I am saying the character likes blueberries, even though you have consistently written about his aversion to blueberries and in every episode of the show he has shown a tendency to like blueberries. Would the fact I say he likes blueberries mean that, despite all evidence to the contrary, it is true... just because I created him?
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 21, 2018, 01:30:58 PM
I wonder if anyone ever asked if Oscar and Felix were gay?
No need t ask. Yes.
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 21, 2018, 01:30:58 PM
I wonder if anyone ever asked if Oscar and Felix were gay?
They were the odd couple. Everything about them was all mixed up, so if one was gay and the other was straight, that would pretty much fit with the story line, no matter what sexual orientation you attached to one or both of them.
Incidentally back in the late sixties, I shared an apartment with another guy. We were both straight. He was a jock like Oscar, but instead of being a slob like Oscar, he was excessively neat. He even ironed his underwear. He also took bubble baths, and there was always a big box of Mr. Bubble in the bathroom, although when kidded about it, he insisted it was to help fight bathtub ring. This may have been true, but I was never sure.
I was the slob, which came to a head one day as he was vacuuming the rug and I was just sitting there not lifting a finger to help. He was so neat, it just never got dirty enough for me to bother cleaning; We had serious arguments over house cleaning. The final touch after all his cleaning was to put a dish of nuts and candies on the coffee table. I would gobble them up in one sitting, which pissed him off because the dish was always empty, and it destroyed the ambiance he was trying to create.
I played basketball on the town team, but it was purely recreational on my part, while he was the quintessential jock and played college football and wrestled. He coached high school football after he graduated college, and was a state certified wrestling referee who was highly sought after in tournaments.
I was dating a woman, but I could never get to second base with her. When she met my roommate, she went gaga. I'm sure it was because he was built like an Adonis. Then they started to date, and she was always trying to get him to have sex with her, which he whined about because he was a Catholic and didn't believe in premarital sex.
My friends started calling us the odd couple. That was an interesting year.
A football coach, huh? Was he also the math teacher? That's usually who teaches math, at least where I grew up. They were pretty good at it, though.
He was a PE teacher, which seems like a more typical stereotype.
Quote from: SGOS on September 22, 2018, 01:51:39 PM
He was a PE teacher, which seems like a more typical stereotype.
How come PE teachers are stereotypically over-weight?
I didn't even know puppets could have sex.
TBH, I thought it was kind of a reach that they thought Bert and Ernie were gay. Do these people think men that room together in an apartment are gay?
Quote from: Baruch on September 22, 2018, 02:32:48 PM
How come PE teachers are stereotypically over-weight?
Because they feed off the sweat and misery of their students.
QuoteTBH, I thought it was kind of a reach that they thought Bert and Ernie were gay. Do these people think men that room together in an apartment are gay?
Since their writer wrote them with his relationship as the model, I don't see where the stretch is.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 22, 2018, 03:06:12 PM
Since their writer wrote them with his relationship as the model, I don't see where the stretch is.
interesting, using personal experiences as a basis for a creative project... who'dathunk that?
Yes. It's still a reach, despite him using his relationship with his wife.
The problem I have with topics like this is that people tend to stop reading Frank Oz's original post at the third sentence when I think the most important thing was in the seventh.
QuoteYes. It's still a reach, despite him using his relationship with his wife.
*His husband, considering the writer in question wrote them based on his relationship with his late husband.
QuoteThe problem I have with topics like this is that people tend to stop reading Frank Oz's original post at the third sentence when I think the most important thing was in the seventh.
Probably because his entire position is contradictory.
1. Muppets have no sexuality according to them. Fine, I am actually okay with that... except we have several straight characters who have character-defining traits of sexuality (Notably, Kermit and Ms. Piggy). It's only when it comes to the LGBT+ community that suddenly muppets don't have a sexuality, and that's a problem.
2."Of course." is dismissive as fuck, particularly when he is not the only one who wrote for the characters. It is obviously not "of course" because of how many people interpreted it that way, including one of the character's writers who wrote it to appear that way.3. Maybe the seventh sentence was the most important part, but not for the reason you think. Yes, humanity is more than sexuality... but at the same time, sexuality is a fundamental aspect of humanity. This forum, of all places, discounting sexuality is absolutely mindboggling to me given how many atheists hold the idea of, "The only meaning of life is to procreate or not.".
Acknowledging sexuality =/= making it all about sexuality.
Reading back on it, it's not just dismissive of an entire community who felt they had a healthy representation in one of the more wholesome shows on television, but it also reinforces the prudish idea that sexuality is not a key component of the human experience.
And in retort to the idea that muppets don't have sexuality or relationships...
http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Couples (http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Couples)
Also, Frank Oz has both apologized for the "Of Course" remark as well as said this...
Quote"But I did learn something from @Logainne (https://twitter.com/logainne). Although it doesn't matter to me if someone is gay or viewed as gay, I learned it does matter to a great many people who feel they are not represented enough. The Tweet discussion was worth it for me to just learn that."
Even he admits that there is legitimacy to the argument being brought up, even if he doesn't have a dog in that fight, and frankly I am happy enough with that. If yall want to keep on arguing over it, have fun.
Why would anyone think that someone whose job requires a man's arm stuck up them to the elbow would necessarily be gay? They could be real troopers. Hard to tell.
Here we go again, Shiranu vs the world in this episode of "this is why I am the most virtuous"
Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 22, 2018, 07:55:45 PM
Here we go again, Shiranu vs the world in this episode of "this is why I am the most virtuous"
As I have told Shiranu before, aside from being an atheist, he would make a typical Franciscan monk.
I've learned a lot from watching him, such as just how deep someone can be in their social and political ideology the same as a religious person can be deep in their religious one.
I'm gay and have read some gay authors who make the world into a gay power fantasy of gays being the main population, and while those had some hot implications, I'm also a realist and know such a thing would be unsustainable since their be no more children outside of sperm donars for the lesbians on their side of the planet.
As such, I don't feel its needed to have homosexuality forced on characters where they weren't before (from a proper narrative, in fan fiction and artwork its fine), such as how they recently made Iceman from x-men come out after 50 years, and he's just totally awesome and fabulous now, completely uprooting his character. Rather then making new characters who are gay and building on them, some people get the bright idea to make a preexisting character gay.
And yes, there are many cases of people who have been in the closet for years not coming out, which could lead to good storytelling. But not when its a blatantly obvious forced plothole for diversity points, if it can't be written naturally, then it shouldn't as well. A good example is Willow from buffy the vampire slayer, who came out later on in the series at what felt like a natural thing over time. Not just going from average joe dating women one day to jack from will and grace the next.
Quote from: Baruch on September 22, 2018, 02:32:48 PM
How come PE teachers are stereotypically over-weight?
(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/9e/7e/fb/9e7efbf221d8969969d6b446e6a8ca22--role-models-playlists.jpg)
Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 22, 2018, 07:55:45 PM
Here we go again, Shiranu vs the world in this episode of "this is why I am the most virtuous"
*shrug*
I literally just posted Frank Oz's agreeing that this whole controversy was beneficial because it helped him understand the issue of representation, and that I respect him for that and don't see any further need for conflict. By all means if everyone else here wants to continue to debate the topic... have at it, but to me it has already been settled for both sides; both those pro-creator should respect that he agrees with the opposition, and those who don't think his opinion matters... well, his opinion doesn't matter, so who cares?
The only reason I am responding here is I don't see the need for a personal insult like that when it's bluntly wrong, and it's rather disappointing to see from someone I respect. I don't even mind the insult, I know particularly of late I have been more than happy to call people on their shit in an insulting way, just so long as it would have had some truth to it.
Sorry Shir, gotta take Munch's side on this issue. The creator of the character is the one who makes the decision, regardless of who does the actual writing. If Frank Oz says Bert and Ernie aren't gay, then they aren't gay (although he doesn't say they're straight, either, just "not gay"). Besides, bromance (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeterosexualLifePartners) isn't exactly an unprecedented literary trope.
And frankly, I think what he says at the end of that tweet is far more meaningful. Being on the bisexual spectrum myself, I do get mildly annoyed every time people pretend as if there are only two possibilities. People are far more complicated than that.
QuoteSorry Shir, gotta take Munch's side on this issue. The creator of the character is the one who makes the decision, regardless of who does the actual writing.
My last couple of posts have all been on the creator's side though, and that's what is getting frustrating. Even when I agree with people, they want to tell me that they disagree with me. I don't care if people value the creator's opinion more or less... I personally don't, but that is purely subjective and not something I see even the slightest need to argue about.
And the thing is that's not what I have argued against. I have argued that the way he worded it was just... wrong... and he himself admitted that it was worded poorly and that the entire situation has made him think more about the issue and that he found the whole situation valuable. I have respect for that, and he seems like a great guy who never meant anything negative even if he inadvertently worded it negatively, even if he doesn't agree with me 100%.
It's a lose/lose situation; either I disagree and everyone is annoyed, or I agree and everyone is annoyed. Certain posters want to always talk about how I always disagree with them, that I am always opinionated, but what do you expect when even if I change my position, agree that they were right or at least we have enough common ground that I am more than happy to see eye to eye with you, I will still get attacked for it?
I am more than happy to concede when I am wrong, and on more than one occasion (this thread being a prime example of it) I have changed my position because the "other side" (Frank Oz, through his engagement with fans on twitter) showed me the same respect. But to people who will continue to attack me for being "the enemy", even when I change my position to be more inline with theirs because I found value in it, why should I be expected to be anything other than confrontational towards them?
If I make an effort to be open-minded, changing my position based on the facts, and continue to be attacked anyways... then why should I even bother being friendly? I bother changing my position for my sake or because it's right, but I sure as fuck will not change my position for someone who attacks me even when I agree with them because that proves to me they are only arguing for the sake of division and continuing a "us-vs-them" mentality. And particularly on this forum it has happened time and time and time again that certain posters, even when I directly agree with them, continue to attack me for being "wrong", and I never see them called out on it by "moderates" or whatever you want to call people in the middle who aren't leaning heavily one way or the other.
-------
Addressing the points in your post
--------
That's one reason I quite like your post is that you simply disagreed, and you gave good reasoning for it. I think the first issue is completely subjective and opinion based, and I respect that you feel that the character creator has that power even if I disagree with it. I don't see any point in arguing over that because... I mean, there is nothing to really argue other than, "This is my opinion!".
I also disagree with your last point in that I don't think acknowledging a homosexual relationship some how excludes bisexuals, but I will certainly agree that bisexualism is heavily under-acknowledged in the LGBT+ community, and even at times stigmatized by the LG community, which is absolutely mind blowing to me.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 22, 2018, 10:25:07 PM
My last couple of posts have all been on the creator's side though, and that's what is getting frustrating. Even when I agree with people, they want to tell me that they disagree with me. I don't care if people value the creator's opinion more or less... I personally don't, but that is purely subjective and not something I see even the slightest need to argue about.
I'm a little drunk and kinda glossed over the thread. Apologies for beating a dead horse.
My first thought on hearing about this was "well, of course they are". And when the writers (and I thought the designers, too) said they were gay settled it. But what is all the hubbub all about? So they were? The Muppets Company tended to create some characters for everyone (though I think they avoided religion). Or they were not and just Really Good Friends who slept in the same bed as children sometimes do to some point.
It could go either way, and I'm fine with that. It's not like the Muppets are practical in any way. Exactly what WOULD Kermit and Miss Piggy do in bed anyway, and they probably have the most "adultish" relationship among the Muppets.
If you really want to get into interpretations, how about the original opening sequences of 'Gunsmoke'? IIRC (iffy on details), you saw 2 male feet at floor level and boots pulled on. Then you saw Marshall Dillon and Miss Kitty sitting on a bed. Hard to misinterpret that...
(https://preview.ibb.co/bRf1we/FB_IMG_1537483533875.jpg)
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 23, 2018, 01:48:42 PM
(https://preview.ibb.co/bRf1we/FB_IMG_1537483533875.jpg)
That's GREAT! Cheers!!!
Quote from: Shiranu on September 22, 2018, 05:11:10 PM
. This forum, of all places, discounting sexuality is absolutely mindboggling to me given how many atheists hold the idea of, "The only meaning of life is to procreate or not.".
That's news to me. But then, I'm not everybody. I'm also criminally out of touch. When the paper lists celebrity birthdays, I rarely know who any of those people are.
QuoteAcknowledging sexuality =/= making it all about sexuality.
Reading back on it, it's not just dismissive of an entire community who felt they had a healthy representation in one of the more wholesome shows on television, but it also reinforces the prudish idea that sexuality is not a key component of the human experience.
I don't know. I've been walking more lately and a couple months ago as i walked I passed several pairs of young, college-aged people as they likewise enjoyed the early summer weather. As I passed them I caught snippets of the conversations they were having. Know what they were talking about? Relationship stuff. He said and she said and he feels this way about me but I don't feel that way about him, etc. Know what I thought after hearing this? Thank fucking christ that shit isn't a part of my life anymore. Holy shit, I didn't feel that much relief when the doctor told me it wasn't cancer.
It could just be that I'm old and sex and relationships are less important to me because I don't have either anymore, like when you cut out drinking Coca-Cola to lose weight and you aren't effected if the Coca-Cola Bottling Co raises the cost of a can of Coke by five cents. It could also be these people are just young and as such are ruled by their hormones or whatever to a degree that I, as an outside observer, think that they do not have to.
I don't know. I kind of view it like the fufferolla over the Ghostbusters remake a couple years ago. It became such a hot button of gender politics that no one seemed to notice or care that the movie wasn't funny.
At the end of the day, I don't think I care enough about the relationship between a couple of puppets to want to die on this hill. Especially when my position seems to be, re-reading what I wrote above, that dying on this hill is not worth it. You'd said that acknowledging sexuality is not the same as making it all about sexuality. But I'm not hearing much else.
Quote from: the_antithesis on September 23, 2018, 09:49:25 PM
That's news to me. But then, I'm not everybody. I'm also criminally out of touch. When the paper lists celebrity birthdays, I rarely know who any of those people are.
I don't know. I've been walking more lately and a couple months ago as i walked I passed several pairs of young, college-aged people as they likewise enjoyed the early summer weather. As I passed them I caught snippets of the conversations they were having. Know what they were talking about? Relationship stuff. He said and she said and he feels this way about me but I don't feel that way about him, etc. Know what I thought after hearing this? Thank fucking christ that shit isn't a part of my life anymore. Holy shit, I didn't feel that much relief when the doctor told me it wasn't cancer.
It could just be that I'm old and sex and relationships are less important to me because I don't have either anymore, like when you cut out drinking Coca-Cola to lose weight and you aren't effected if the Coca-Cola Bottling Co raises the cost of a can of Coke by five cents. It could also be these people are just young and as such are ruled by their hormones or whatever to a degree that I, as an outside observer, think that they do not have to.
I don't know. I kind of view it like the fufferolla over the Ghostbusters remake a couple years ago. It became such a hot button of gender politics that no one seemed to notice or care that the movie wasn't funny.
At the end of the day, I don't think I care enough about the relationship between a couple of puppets to want to die on this hill. Especially when my position seems to be, re-reading what I wrote above, that dying on this hill is not worth it. You'd said that acknowledging sexuality is not the same as making it all about sexuality. But I'm not hearing much else.
Interesting thoughts, and I hope you post more often (obviously have in the past).
I read the obituaries and think "who"? I see celebs win awards and think "who"? I see people both younger and older (not at the same time of course) on the TV and I don't know who they are.
My friends always knew in Trivial Pursuit to ask me about "famous people", LOL!
...
Sorry, I lost track of the intent of your post.