https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/12/us/migrant-children-detention.html
-12,800 children are detained in internment camps.
-That is 5 times the number of children that was detained just a year ago.
That said, the number of children that were seeking refugee here alone has not increased in that time. The main issue is that now the families that would claim these children are too afraid to come forward and sponsor them for fear of it leading to their deportation.
The camps they live in have gone from an average of 30% capacity last year to 90% capacity this year, and simply put ICE just doesn't have the budget to adequately maintain or staff them.
The medical research is out there that these programs have major psychological impact on the children, even when they are being run efficiently. So we are creating literally thousands of emotionally scarred individuals who, if they are lucky, will finally be allowed to stay in the country but will never receive any help. That is the best case scenario, and that is terrifying.
This is completely on the hands of people like Trump and the racist Republicans who support his hateful ideology, and this is the type of mindset the European far-right is trying to adopt. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to see why this is not a winning strategy and will only cause more harm than good.
If you have to break your ideals of liberty, equality, fraternity, the bedrock of Western culture... to protect liberty, equality and fraternity and to protect Western culture... then you have already lost your culture. It won't be the Mexicans, or the Muslims, or the Africans, or whoever who destroys it, it will be Westerners themselves.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 18, 2018, 08:13:05 AM
The main issue is that now the families that would claim these children are too afraid to come forward and sponsor them for fear of it leading to their deportation.
If the choice were to leave my child in a internment camp or be deported, I would be deported.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 18, 2018, 08:13:05 AM
The medical research is out there that these programs have major psychological impact on the children, even when they are being run efficiently. So we are creating literally thousands of emotionally scarred individuals who, if they are lucky, will finally be allowed to stay in the country but will never receive any help. That is the best case scenario, and that is terrifying.
Yes, it is. Depending on the age of the child, separation from their primary caregiver can have long lasting effects.
QuoteIf the choice were to leave my child in a internment camp or be deported, I would be deported.
The thing is it's generally not their children; these are kids fleeing countries ravaged by gang violence, either to escape a life of crime or exploitation of crime... or to escape being executed with the rest of their family. They flee here where cousins or distance uncles or other distance family that escaped the country live and hope that the family name will be strong enough.
The children come here because their family doesn't want them, doesn't have their best interest in mind, or because they were killed, and hoping that (often) very distance family will risk sacrificing their lives to adopt them. That is a big gamble, and being sent back is essentially a death sentence for so many of these children.
That is happening in "the freest country in the world", and we are complete and utterly morally failing.
And yet people in my life still insist that Hillary would have been worse.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on September 18, 2018, 10:29:42 AM
And yet people in my life still insist that Hillary would have been worse.
No, any candidate not D or R would have been better, but would be unable to do anything. Both parties in Congress would work hard to prevent anything being done. Until you get rid of partisanship, we need a Civil War to clear this up ;-( Or just have a one party state like China, and kill all dissidents like in the Cultural Revolution.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 18, 2018, 10:22:08 AM
The thing is it's generally not their children; these are kids fleeing countries ravaged by gang violence, either to escape a life of crime or exploitation of crime... or to escape being executed with the rest of their family. They flee here where cousins or distance uncles or other distance family that escaped the country live and hope that the family name will be strong enough.
The children come here because their family doesn't want them, doesn't have their best interest in mind, or because they were killed, and hoping that (often) very distance family will risk sacrificing their lives to adopt them. That is a big gamble, and being sent back is essentially a death sentence for so many of these children.
That is happening in "the freest country in the world", and we are complete and utterly morally failing.
How much is Soros paying you? (Rhetorical question). The human race has been morally failing for millennia. It didn't start 2 years ago.
If you care about children like these, become a foster parent, or STHU. Handwringing or virtue signaling does nothing.
Quote from: Baruch on September 18, 2018, 12:47:35 PM
How much is Soros paying you? (Rhetorical question). The human race has been morally failing for millennia. It didn't start 2 years ago.
If you care about children like these, become a foster parent, or STHU. Handwringing or virtue signaling does nothing.
I second this notion.
Nobody cared when Obama was in control.
Quote from: pr126 on September 18, 2018, 02:32:52 PM
Nobody cared when Obama was in control.
Yeah, it was liberal utopia back then. Obama personally went to Libya, dressed like Gandhi, and asked the warring factions to make peace.
Quote from: Baruch on September 18, 2018, 12:45:59 PM
...
Until you get rid of partisanship, we need a Civil War to clear this up ;-( Or just have a one party state like China, and kill all dissidents like in the Cultural Revolution.
You are becoming more and more delusional as time passes. Seek appropriate help from the mental health professional of your choosing.
Quote from: sdelsolray on September 18, 2018, 07:57:28 PM
You are becoming more and more delusional as time passes. Seek appropriate help from the mental health professional of your choosing.
Not at all. I can see what a worthless ideology liberalism is today. The people might be of some worth, but their insane obsessions aren't.
Go give all you have to nearest poor person ... if you are like Shiranu.
Quote from: Munch on September 18, 2018, 01:58:03 PM
I second this notion.
Of course you do, and that's why you are a dye-in-the-wool conservative, no matter how much you protest that you are a moderate. You are fundamentally opposed to essentially anything that ever runs contrary to your status quo.
I have been very clear that I spend time working at the border with immigrant families, and predominately women and children. I have paid my share, and I still don't feel the need to hold it over people's head that they "aren't doing enough".
No one individual can do enough, that's the entire point of the government... to achieve things as a collective that we cant as individuals. I could literally spend every single second of my life from here on till my death helping these families, but at the end of the day it wouldn't mean much because the fundamental issues with immigration will be resolved by popular opinion and electing sympathetic politicians, not through hard work or individualism.
Quote from: pr126 on September 18, 2018, 02:32:52 PM
Nobody cared when Obama was in control.
Yeah, maybe because Obama didn't detain 13,000 children.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 18, 2018, 11:47:06 PM
Of course you do, and that's why you are a dye-in-the-wool conservative, no matter how much you protest that you are a moderate. You are fundamentally opposed to essentially anything that ever runs contrary to your status quo.
I have been very clear that I spend time working at the border with immigrant families, and predominately women and children. I have paid my share, and I still don't feel the need to hold it over people's head that they "aren't doing enough".
No one individual can do enough, that's the entire point of the government... to achieve things as a collective that we cant as individuals. I could literally spend every single second of my life from here on till my death helping these families, but at the end of the day it wouldn't mean much because the fundamental issues with immigration will be resolved by popular opinion and electing sympathetic politicians, not through hard work or individualism.
Yeah, maybe because Obama didn't detain 13,000 children.
You forgot to call anyone who disagrees with you, a Nazi. Are you feeling OK?
Actually it is OK to speculate what government improvement might improve things. But on that score, I suggest you run for office. Otherwise ...
And we already know you support completely open borders.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 18, 2018, 10:22:08 AM
The thing is it's generally not their children; these are kids fleeing countries ravaged by gang violence, either to escape a life of crime or exploitation of crime... or to escape being executed with the rest of their family. They flee here where cousins or distance uncles or other distance family that escaped the country live and hope that the family name will be strong enough.
The children come here because their family doesn't want them, doesn't have their best interest in mind, or because they were killed, and hoping that (often) very distance family will risk sacrificing their lives to adopt them. That is a big gamble, and being sent back is essentially a death sentence for so many of these children.
That is happening in "the freest country in the world", and we are complete and utterly morally failing.
WHOA there... What evidence do you have that "it's generally not their children"? That is very important.
Quote from: Cavebear on September 19, 2018, 02:51:06 AM
WHOA there... What evidence do you have that "it's generally not their children"? That is very important.
The reports I have seen is that 1/6 are "unaccompanied". They have no parents in custody to be returned to. For the 5/6 ... their parents are in custody. But this is a crooked statistic ... I usually don't quote Snopes:
https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/06/27/did-80-percent-undocumented-without-parent/
The actual percentage based on say one month of apprehensions, divided up into categories is unknown. It seems the government has again flunked math. Who knew?
Quote from: Shiranu on September 18, 2018, 11:47:06 PM
Of course you do, and that's why you are a dye-in-the-wool conservative, no matter how much you protest that you are a moderate. You are fundamentally opposed to essentially anything that ever runs contrary to your status quo.
Of course I'm conservative.. to you. Your so far left anything who remotely disagrees with you is to the right of your sociological opinion.
Mostly I'm opposed to you though, because I value reasonable balance of ideas rather then screeching one track single minded social and political views.
QuoteI have been very clear that I spend time working at the border with immigrant families, and predominately women and children. I have paid my share, and I still don't feel the need to hold it over people's head that they "aren't doing enough".
good for you, and I give cans and dry foods to sainsburys food drives here to help the local shelters. hooray for me.
QuoteNo one individual can do enough, that's the entire point of the government... to achieve things as a collective that we cant as individuals. I could literally spend every single second of my life from here on till my death helping these families, but at the end of the day it wouldn't mean much because the fundamental issues with immigration will be resolved by popular opinion and electing sympathetic politicians, not through hard work or individualism.
your so concerned with helping people coming into the place you live, have you ever looked back at the people already there in need of help? And have you ever considered how much worse it would be for those people if all focus goes into people flooding from other lands if all aid effort went into them?
I suppose not, since you kinda hate people around you, rather would imagine a utopia like from a 1960s art piece.
QuoteYeah, maybe because Obama didn't detain 13,000 children.
you really are fucking naive. obama stands as the president who deported more immigrants then any other president.
https://www.economist.com/united-states/2017/12/14/donald-trump-is-deporting-fewer-people-than-barack-obama-did
Your cognitive dissonance stems from a simple premise 'He's black and a democrat, so he must have been a good guy!'
I am dissapointed with you Munch. If the right wing had its way, you would be locked up. They HATE people like you.
I'm glad you give food to shelters.
The Obama administration did deport many illegal immigrants, but they never separated parents from children as a strategy.
About "the people already there in need of help", the Trump administration has done far worse.
About "'He's black and a democrat, so he must have been a good guy!' ", you should be ashamed about that. I did vote for Obama but not because he was black or a democrat. I voted for him in the primaries because he was smart as Hillary but showed more promise as a leader. I voted for him over McCain only because there were 2 really good candidates and I had to choose one. And McCain had both Palin and the rest of the Republican party dragging his coat-tails.
I could go on. But I won't.
Must every problem be framed in terms of partisan politics? I think we can all agree that holding children in an internment camp is a bad outcome. People from whatever political persuasion should be telling their representatives this situation is unacceptable and we need a better solution.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on September 19, 2018, 08:51:00 AM
Must every problem be framed in terms of partisan politics? I think we can all agree that holding children in an internment camp is a bad outcome. People from whatever political persuasion should be telling their representatives this situation is unacceptable and we need a better solution.
It doesn't have to be. I don't. But when one partisan political group makes it so, it is unless you can ignore them. And they won't permit being ignored on any mater, no matter how trivial.
If I flipped a coin to decide a matter of close dispute, one side (Democrats) would say "it was a fair coin flip". The other side (Republicans) would challenge the morals of the person flipping the coin, challenge the coin, and challenge whether the results were cheated.
I used to be a Republican. That's why I understand how they play the game. They cheat "for the better good of themselves". Democrats play Bridge politely; Republicans play poker and deal from the bottom of the deck. And they will take a few of your chips while you go and bring back snacks for all.
Quote from: pr126 on September 18, 2018, 02:32:52 PM
Nobody cared when Obama was in control.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 18, 2018, 11:47:06 PM
Yeah, maybe because Obama didn't detain 13,000 children.
Or people didn't know about it.
I don't know how many Obama detained. I never heard about it until Trump was in office. I admit ignorance, which is no excuse, but it kind of is, because I rely heavily on information from sources outside myself.
The trope is an old one and a lame one, that it's liberal attack on Trump, because liberals didn't attack Obama. But I think it more likely that few people knew about it, including the right wing who likes to pretend it was common knowledge all along, especially if they think it justifies Trump's actions, which of course it doesn't. It's just a shot at liberals, a shot at Obama, although it's actual support for Obama when you think about it, because he was doing what they now think is the right thing, even if they never said that 4 years ago. What they don't offer is something better, just sniping. Not that the Democrats are innocent angels by any means.
Knowledge of past events aside, it was an ethically questionable policy. And if Obama did detain 13,000, he should not escape political judgment, and if Obama did escape political judgment, it's an incredibly lame argument to justify Trump's actions today. Obama is not the president. Trump is! And people have every right to question our governments policies. Especially when this kind of thing becomes known. When it's not known, there's not much that will be done.
We could start by examining the policy. Is it justified or just cruel? Is there a better way to do it? And for god's sake, get the frickin' facts right. That's the problem with most political arguments. They begin and end with, "Who's at fault? Who's the biggest dick? And it's heavily weighted by bullshit passed off as "alternative facts." Most of all, it avoids the real issue.
Quote from: SGOS on September 19, 2018, 11:23:08 AM
Or people didn't know about it.
I don't know how many Obama detained. I never heard about it until Trump was in office. I admit ignorance, which is no excuse, but it kind of is, because I rely heavily on information from sources outside myself.
The trope is an old one and a lame one, that it's liberal attack on Trump, because liberals didn't attack Obama. But I think it more likely that few people knew about it, including the right wing who likes to pretend it was common knowledge all along, especially if they think it justifies Trump's actions, which of course it doesn't. It's just a shot at liberals, a shot at Obama, although it's actual support for Obama when you think about it, because he was doing what they now think is the right thing, even if they never said that 4 years ago. What they don't offer is something better, just sniping. Not that the Democrats are innocent angels by any means.
Knowledge of past events aside, it was an ethically questionable policy. And if Obama did detain 13,000, he should not escape political judgment, and if Obama did escape political judgment, it's an incredibly lame argument to justify Trump's actions today. Obama is not the president. Trump is! And people have every right to question our governments policies. Especially when this kind of thing becomes known. When it's not known, there's not much that will be done.
We could start by examining the policy. Is it justified or just cruel? Is there a better way to do it? And for god's sake, get the frickin' facts right. That's the problem with most political arguments. They begin and end with, "Who's at fault? Who's the biggest dick? And it's heavily weighted by bullshit passed off as "alternative facts." Most of all, it avoids the real issue.
OK, how many illegal immigrant children do YOU think the Obama Administration detained in 8 years and how many the same do you think Trump did in 20 months? I'm not even asking for sources. Just how many would be your best guess.
And I haven't looked it up either.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on September 19, 2018, 08:51:00 AM
Must every problem be framed in terms of partisan politics? I think we can all agree that holding children in an internment camp is a bad outcome. People from whatever political persuasion should be telling their representatives this situation is unacceptable and we need a better solution.
Ideally, that's true.
However, it was a decision made by one side of the political spectrum and criticized by the other, so now it's a partisan issue. Now we have to live with the fallout of millions of seemingly decent people suddenly being okay with holding children in an internment camp.
It's disturbing by what can be legitimized this way. It's like the Milligram experiment except we're all being tested 24/7 and a good chunk of us failed miserably.
Quote from: Hydra009 on September 19, 2018, 11:42:51 AM
Ideally, that's true.
However, it was a decision made by one side of the political spectrum and criticized by the other, so now it's a partisan issue. Now we have to live with the fallout of millions of seemingly decent people suddenly being okay with holding children in an internment camp.
It's disturbing by what can be legitimized this way. It's like the Milligram experiment except we're all being tested 24/7 and a good chunk of us failed miserably.
One political party says 1+17+18. The other says it equals 19. Therefore, because there is a difference, it must be a partisan controversy.
No.
How people ought to react =/= how people do react
Quote from: Hydra009 on September 19, 2018, 12:01:55 PM
How people ought to react =/= how people do react
Well, "yes", but how people DO react is the problem.
Quote from: Cavebear on September 19, 2018, 12:04:26 PM
Well, "yes", but how people DO react is the problem.
That's my point! ><
Quote from: Hydra009 on September 19, 2018, 12:05:56 PM
That's my point! ><
But you earlier referred to "a decision made by one side of the political spectrum and criticized by the other, so now it's a partisan issue."
You can't have it both ways...
Quote from: Cavebear on September 19, 2018, 12:29:20 PM
But you earlier referred to "a decision made by one side of the political spectrum and criticized by the other, so now it's a partisan issue."
You can't have it both ways...
Partisanship comes from the barrel of a gun ... logic has nothing to do with it - to misquote Mao.
Quote from: Hydra009 on September 19, 2018, 11:42:51 AM
Ideally, that's true.
However, it was a decision made by one side of the political spectrum and criticized by the other, so now it's a partisan issue. Now we have to live with the fallout of millions of seemingly decent people suddenly being okay with holding children in an internment camp.
It's disturbing by what can be legitimized this way. It's like the Milligram experiment except we're all being tested 24/7 and a good chunk of us failed miserably.
The US is the Milgram experiment ... a failed state. We love violence ... just ask the Vietnamese or the Iraqis.
Quote from: Cavebear on September 19, 2018, 12:04:26 PM
Well, "yes", but how people DO react is the problem.
You could adopt quite a few more children than Shiranu.
Quote from: Cavebear on September 19, 2018, 12:29:20 PM
But you earlier referred to "a decision made by one side of the political spectrum and criticized by the other, so now it's a partisan issue."
You can't have it both ways...
I have no idea why you're so confused nor do I understand why that's my problem. But to sum up: 'this has become a partisan issue, but it shouldn't be.' Comprende?
Quote from: Cavebear on September 19, 2018, 11:40:26 AM
OK, how many illegal immigrant children do YOU think the Obama Administration detained in 8 years and how many the same do you think Trump did in 20 months? I'm not even asking for sources. Just how many would be your best guess.
And I haven't looked it up either.
I've only seen figures for Trump. I'll guess 10,000. For Obama, I've got to tell you; I wouldn't have a clue.
I haven't looked it up.
Quote from: Hydra009 on September 19, 2018, 01:10:47 PM
I have no idea why you're so confused nor do I understand why that's my problem. But to sum up: 'this has become a partisan issue, but it shouldn't be.' Comprende?
I don't feel confused about foolish partisanship.
Quote from: SGOS on September 19, 2018, 01:49:12 PM
I've only seen figures for Trump. I'll guess 10,000. For Obama, I've got to tell you; I wouldn't have a clue.
I haven't looked it up.
Could it be that there weren't many children separated from their parents in the Obama Administration?
https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article213525764.html
Let's stop pretending like trump created this policy and the migrant children being separated from their patents has only been happening under him, because its been happening for a long time now, and Obama didn't change it. Children were still separated from their parents under him.
Trumps bad because he pushed up the enforcement to be even more rigorous about migrant screening leading to more children and families being separated, sure, trumps Satan in the flesh. But stop acting like he's the only one to have done this and given the okay for it to keep happening.
What trump is doing is bad, but Obama gave him the groundwork
Quote from: Munch on September 19, 2018, 04:08:28 PM
https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article213525764.html
Let's stop pretending like trump created this policy and the migrant children being separated from their patents has only been happening under him, because its been happening for a long time now, and Obama didn't change it. Children were still separated from their parents under him.
Trumps bad because he pushed up the enforcement to be even more rigorous about migrant screening leading to more children and families being separated, sure, trumps Satan in the flesh. But stop acting like he's the only one to have done this and given the okay for it to keep happening.
What trump is doing is bad, but Obama gave him the groundwork
Well, you might want to consider the difference being what the law REQUIRES and what the law ALLOWS and recognize that what Trump does is the maximum.
Quote from: Cavebear on September 19, 2018, 05:05:46 PM
Well, you might want to consider the difference being what the law REQUIRES and what the law ALLOWS and recognize that what Trump does is the maximum.
I'm not arguing that fact. Despite you thinking otherwise, I'm as much against trump and consider him a wanker as anyone else. I just don't put all of lifes blames on him for other peoples suffering, since its not that simple.
Quote from: Munch on September 19, 2018, 05:13:57 PM
I'm not arguing that fact. Despite you thinking otherwise, I'm as much against trump and consider him a wanker as anyone else. I just don't put all of lifes blames on him for other peoples suffering, since its not that simple.
Well, OK. That changes what I THOUGHT you were discussing. Sorry we got confused about it.
I don't blame Trump for being a hare-brained paranoid megalomaniac lunatic. There are lots of people like that in the world. I just blame the dumbasses who voted for him for President. It just wouldn't have been hard to find someone better (and that's a low bar), is all I'm saying. Maybe someone with a bit of domestic political experience, some time in the Senate to know how it worked, a small time knowing what is in the Constitution, and maybe even some international experience dealing with our allies and our enemies. That sort of thing.
Oh wait, that would have been the other candidate. Darn...
Quote from: Cavebear on September 19, 2018, 02:40:20 PM
I don't feel confused about foolish partisanship.
That is why you will make a good Chief of Gestapo ... or KGB.
"Chicago Set To Offer $350 Million ObamaLand Center 99-Year Lease For Just $10" ... yes, just another wanker. But OK if you are Dem.
QuoteMostly I'm opposed to you though, because I value reasonable balance of ideas rather then screeching one track single minded social and political views.
(http://gif-finder.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Chris-Pratt-Middle-Finger.gif)
It's funny that you think I dislike you because you are to the right of me, when I don't even view you as right wing.
Pot calling the kettle black? In that case we are all minority victims ... wah.
Quote from: Baruch on September 19, 2018, 08:36:18 PM
Pot calling the kettle black? In that case we are all minority victims ... wah.
More like calling the octogoons black. Actually, you would think the caucasians would claim anyone they could these days. A few more years, and Clarence Thomas will be an honorary New Englander...
Quote from: Cavebear on September 23, 2018, 01:15:11 PM
More like calling the octogoons black. Actually, you would think the caucasians would claim anyone they could these days. A few more years, and Clarence Thomas will be an honorary New Englander...
Well ... he was accused by the Left of being sexy to a coworker. But I don't think he has been accused of rape. The actual truth is that African-Americans who rise in the political arena ... are Uncle Toms. See Cornell West.
Quote from: Baruch on September 23, 2018, 01:33:59 PM
Well ... he was accused by the Left of being sexy to a coworker. But I don't think he has been accused of rape. The actual truth is that African-Americans who rise in the political arena ... are Uncle Toms. See Cornell West.
Making a subordinate watch porn is not "sexy".
Quote from: Cavebear on September 23, 2018, 01:50:14 PM
Making a subordinate watch porn is not "sexy".
I was trying to be "non explicit". Yes, bosses can be dicks. Even women bosses.
Quote from: Baruch on September 23, 2018, 01:51:49 PM
I was trying to be "non explicit". Yes, bosses can be dicks. Even women bosses.
Of several female bosses I had, I can assure you that none were "dicks". Though most of my male bosses stepped on theirs. The woman bosses were entirely reasonable at all times.
Quote from: Cavebear on September 23, 2018, 01:56:36 PM
Of several female bosses I had, I can assure you that none were "dicks". Though most of my male bosses stepped on theirs. The woman bosses were entirely reasonable at all times.
I have also had no problems with female bosses ... though I never had any directly in charge of me.
Quote from: Baruch on September 23, 2018, 02:12:38 PM
I have also had no problems with female bosses ... though I never had any directly in charge of me.
You should have tried it sometime. An order is a "request".
Quote from: Cavebear on September 23, 2018, 01:56:36 PM
Of several female bosses I had, I can assure you that none were "dicks". Though most of my male bosses stepped on theirs. The woman bosses were entirely reasonable at all times.
I can say I've had good and bad female bosses, and male ones.
two jobs back, it was the manageress who was rotten to the core, while the manager and owner was a nice guy, tough but fair. Mr previous job went though many different managers and bosses, the 2 female manageresses were okay, not perfect but nice enough, while the manager was a complete asshole and bully. All three of them quit while I worked there and some district managers came and went, but the worst one was the staff manager who stuck around since the beginning, and she was a tyrant to staff, shouting at them, even on the shop floor, a genuinely miserable bitch.
Quote from: Munch on September 23, 2018, 03:10:23 PM
I can say I've had good and bad female bosses, and male ones.
two jobs back, it was the manageress who was rotten to the core, while the manager and owner was a nice guy, tough but fair. Mr previous job went though many different managers and bosses, the 2 female manageresses were okay, not perfect but nice enough, while the manager was a complete asshole and bully. All three of them quit while I worked there and some district managers came and went, but the worst one was the staff manager who stuck around since the beginning, and she was a tyrant to staff, shouting at them, even on the shop floor, a genuinely miserable bitch.
No "yeller" is ever a good boss. And I suspect I shut out of my mind the boss I had for 2 years until we both retired at the same time. She WAS a rather a complete lunatic. I suppose it was just that I was immune to her. She made her own office bigger than the one where the 4 of us others worked AND put a conference table in our place AND her office was a complete pig sty.
I ALMOST stayed after her to take her job and make life decent for the others (it was offerred), but then after retirement was possible, I would have been essentially working for half pay in an office I disliked. MY voice telecomunications function was totally outside the other office functions.
Apparently, I pissed some bigwig off (the CFO, I suspect) just before a reorganization. So retiring was really really attractive.