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News & General Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Shiranu on August 27, 2018, 04:44:57 AM

Title: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Shiranu on August 27, 2018, 04:44:57 AM
American graduation rate for a bachelor's degree is currently sitting at 59%. That means that, by default, 41% of Americans have not received a higher education.

Of those college educated Americans, the overwhelming amount went to just run-of-the-mill colleges that don't really have the budgets to hire quality professors at every position. So at best it's a large percentage of those 59% who received at best a high-school level education.

Speaking of high-school education, think about how many students go to school in states like Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Georgia, Missouri, Arkansas, Kansas, etc. which are notorious for having very low quality of education standards and often times are very corrupt education systems run more by lobbyists, even for oil and drilling companies. Consider how incredibly underpaid our teachers are and how unenthusiastic about their work they tend to be. This is not saying all teachers are this way, but more often than not they were. You only remember your favorite teachers because they were your favorite, but you had 5, 6, however more teachers that year. Do you remember them? No, because they were boring.

And speaking of those teachers, they went to the same colleges that do not meet all that great of standards and never really rank particularly well if people even bother to rank them at all. You now are teaching the system to feed itself; you don't receive the quality of education you deserve, and you then go on to teach the next generation the same.


So of that 59%, I would argue that 20% being decently educated is a stretch. We tend to rank on the lower end of global rankings (other than we attend the 8th most amount of schooling time in the Western world) so that indicates that the system is not working as well as it should and that we are not particularly well educated as a society.

This is extremely useful of course to the people who benefit most from it; corporations that can exploit labour that doesn't know it's allowed to fight back, billionaires who lobby to pollute the environment or change the laws to benefit them at the expense of you, the far-right who require ignorance (and thus, xenophobia and hatred) to bolster their ranks... it's a system that benefits these people, and those are exactly the people who are in power.

So when people campaign for more education funding, that's well and dandy... but we have to ask for an American society that is actually educated as well, we have to ask for a fundamental rethink of how our education system functions, and I don't think the deeper issues are actually ever addressed by people campaigning for education reform. They think the solution exists solely in the realm of education, but it will require a holistic rethinking by our society to really fix anything.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 05:40:14 AM
Quote from: Shiranu on August 27, 2018, 04:44:57 AM
American graduation rate for a bachelor's degree is currently sitting at 59%. That means that, by default, 41% of Americans have not received a higher education.

Of those college educated Americans, the overwhelming amount went to just run-of-the-mill colleges that don't really have the budgets to hire quality professors at every position. So at best it's a large percentage of those 59% who received at best a high-school level education.

Speaking of high-school education, think about how many students go to school in states like Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Georgia, Missouri, Arkansas, Kansas, etc. which are notorious for having very low quality of education standards and often times are very corrupt education systems run more by lobbyists, even for oil and drilling companies. Consider how incredibly underpaid our teachers are and how unenthusiastic about their work they tend to be. This is not saying all teachers are this way, but more often than not they were. You only remember your favorite teachers because they were your favorite, but you had 5, 6, however more teachers that year. Do you remember them? No, because they were boring.

And speaking of those teachers, they went to the same colleges that do not meet all that great of standards and never really rank particularly well if people even bother to rank them at all. You now are teaching the system to feed itself; you don't receive the quality of education you deserve, and you then go on to teach the next generation the same.


So of that 59%, I would argue that 20% being decently educated is a stretch. We tend to rank on the lower end of global rankings (other than we attend the 8th most amount of schooling time in the Western world) so that indicates that the system is not working as well as it should and that we are not particularly well educated as a society.

This is extremely useful of course to the people who benefit most from it; corporations that can exploit labour that doesn't know it's allowed to fight back, billionaires who lobby to pollute the environment or change the laws to benefit them at the expense of you, the far-right who require ignorance (and thus, xenophobia and hatred) to bolster their ranks... it's a system that benefits these people, and those are exactly the people who are in power.

So when people campaign for more education funding, that's well and dandy... but we have to ask for an American society that is actually educated as well, we have to ask for a fundamental rethink of how our education system functions, and I don't think the deeper issues are actually ever addressed by people campaigning for education reform. They think the solution exists solely in the realm of education, but it will require a holistic rethinking by our society to really fix anything.

I think it is important to differentiate between education and learning.  I was indeed, "poorly educated". (town high school, State College)  But I kept learning afterwards.  And many of my fellow students who earned "A"s in their classes don't have the slightest recollection of any information in the subjects.

I do.  And I never stopped learning.  But what worries me is the lack of comprehension even the A students have after a few years.  They learned to cram for tests, but they never actually "learned" anything.

We need to teach "learning" and "comprehension", not great test results.

I'll give an example.  In geometry, the test was to solve some problems about triangles using formulas.  The test SHOULD HAVE BEEN "why does that formula work"?  I knew, and I know it today.  I would bet none of my classmates could explain it. 

We need more understanding and less attention to grades.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: GSOgymrat on August 27, 2018, 07:30:19 AM
Quote from: Shiranu on August 27, 2018, 04:44:57 AM
American graduation rate for a bachelor's degree is currently sitting at 59%. That means that, by default, 41% of Americans have not received a higher education.

According to Statisa, in 2017 in the U.S. 34.6% of women and 33.7% of men have completed four or more years of college. This is the highest rate ever recorded.

Is the 59% graduation rate you cite the percentage who enter a four year program and obtain a degree?
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 08:04:38 AM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 27, 2018, 07:30:19 AM
According to Statisa, in 2017 in the U.S. 34.6% of women and 33.7% of men have completed four or more years of college. This is the highest rate ever recorded.

Is the 59% graduation rate you cite the percentage who enter a four year program and obtain a degree?

I looked up "59%" and found this site.  https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=40

The details are worth looking at.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: GSOgymrat on August 27, 2018, 09:36:38 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 08:04:38 AM
I looked up "59%" and found this site.  https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=40

The details are worth looking at.

"The 6-year graduation rate was 59 percent at public institutions, 66 percent at private nonprofit institutions, and 23 percent at private for-profit institutions." Those are some terrible statistics. Accumulating tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt and not completing a degree is one of the worst investments one can make.

When it comes to evaluating education I think it is important to specify the goal. I attended the school of engineering at North Carolina State University and the primary goal was to prepare students to enter the workforce as engineers. Most of my classmates didn't want to take the few courses that were not directly related to becoming engineers. I transferred to the University of North Carolina at Asheville, which is a liberal arts university, and the primary goal wasn't to prepare students for employment but to provide a broad-based education and prepare students for graduate school and lifelong learning. These were very different programs with different goals. UNC Asheville was a better fit for me (I planned to attend graduate school) but NCSU was a good choice for someone whose goal is to obtain employment with a bachelor's degree.

Obviously most Americans never graduate from college. Should more American attend college and if so is the goal to complete a broad-based education or to train for employment? With the rise of online education, is a traditional university education even the right option for most people?

https://blogs.wsj.com/experts/2018/02/15/is-a-college-degree-worth-it-the-answer-isnt-as-simple-as-you-think/

From a practical perspective, what does this all mean?

First and foremost, every student should do their best to complete high school. But beyond that, blanket recommendations regarding education should generally not be trusted. Whether a student should go to college really depends on their aptitude and interest in college.

For the most intelligent and hard-working students, college is almost always a good investment. If a respectable in-state school is available to such students, that school likely provides the highest ROI, although such students will generally earn a decent ROI regardless of what type of school they go to or what major they choose.

At the other end of the spectrum, pushing a student to go to college when they lack either aptitude or motivation to go can actually be quite harmful. Driven primarily by the low completion rates of poor quality students, college is not a great financial prospect.

Because workers with genuine skills can do better financially than even some students who simply go to college and just get a degree, technical schools and vocational programsâ€"though not an associate’s degree designed purely as stepping stones to a bachelor’s degreeâ€"may be a much better place for some students to start. If students suddenly develop an interest or aptitude for school while gaining practical skills, then they can always continue their education at a public college. And, if not, at least they will have a better chance of walking away with skills that genuinely boost their earning potential and career prospects.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: SGOS on August 27, 2018, 09:55:04 AM
Still not clear about 59%.  Is that 59% the rate of those who start college and don't drop out?  That would seem about right to me.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 10:06:23 AM
Quote from: SGOS on August 27, 2018, 09:55:04 AM
Still not clear about 59%.  Is that 59% the rate of those who start college and don't drop out?  That would seem about right to me.

I'm not sure either.  Those weren't my statistics.  I would like to know though.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Shiranu on August 27, 2018, 11:15:33 AM
Looking at that site again, that's only people who graduated within six years, so the people who took seven plus aren't included. So that number is slightly higher, though I would guess not significantly.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: GSOgymrat on August 27, 2018, 01:50:03 PM
OECD: The US Has Fallen Behind Other Countries In College Completion

https://www.businessinsider.com/r-us-falls-behind-in-college-competition-oecd-2014-9

The United States has slipped behind many other countries in college completion and "educational mobility," with fewer young Americans getting more education than their parents, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development's "Education at a Glance" report. 

U.S. college graduation rates rank 19th out of 28 countries studied by the OECD, which tracks education investment and performance of wealthier democracies, said OECD Director for Education and Skills Andreas Schleicher.

The lack of educational mobility has serious implications for individuals and society, he noted. Higher education levels are associated not just with higher earnings, but also with better health, more community engagement and more trust in governments, institutions and other people.

"Raising educational attainment is not only giving countries more income but it is also creating a greater degree of social cohesion," Schleicher said. "Every business transaction [is founded] on trust. Trust in institutions is vital, trust in democracies. All of those aspects are vital for the functioning of societies." ...
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 01:53:46 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on August 27, 2018, 11:15:33 AM
Looking at that site again, that's only people who graduated within six years, so the people who took seven plus aren't included. So that number is slightly higher, though I would guess not significantly.

Well, it actually took ME 27 years...  Hey, I got involved in "stuff" between college years (paid work, career, growing up finally, etc), LOL!  They kicked me out in 1973 for good reasons.  But I went back later and finished it.    And you know, they offerred to make my diploma retroactive to match my classmates'.  I made them be honest about it.  Matriculated 1968, graduated 1995 BA in Political Science and minor in History (mostly medieval Europe).  I declined the ceremony...
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 02:01:42 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 27, 2018, 01:50:03 PM
OECD: The US Has Fallen Behind Other Countries In College Completion

https://www.businessinsider.com/r-us-falls-behind-in-college-competition-oecd-2014-9

The United States has slipped behind many other countries in college completion and "educational mobility," with fewer young Americans getting more education than their parents, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development's "Education at a Glance" report. 

U.S. college graduation rates rank 19th out of 28 countries studied by the OECD, which tracks education investment and performance of wealthier democracies, said OECD Director for Education and Skills Andreas Schleicher.

The lack of educational mobility has serious implications for individuals and society, he noted. Higher education levels are associated not just with higher earnings, but also with better health, more community engagement and more trust in governments, institutions and other people.

"Raising educational attainment is not only giving countries more income but it is also creating a greater degree of social cohesion," Schleicher said. "Every business transaction [is founded] on trust. Trust in institutions is vital, trust in democracies. All of those aspects are vital for the functioning of societies." ...

I suspect that college isn't where you learn real marketable skills anymore.  Which is a shame because we are turning out too many people into the workforce who know a lot about some field but little about general knowledge.  When I was in college, I took Intro To Everything and know something about nearly everything.  Today, you can have a talented math major who doesn't know shale from granite.  Or how to defend an opinion in the face of others.  Sad.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Unbeliever on August 27, 2018, 02:06:12 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 05:40:14 AM
I think it is important to differentiate between education and learning.

I agree. I didn't even finish high school - well, I did get a GED. I only finished 10th grade and then got in trouble with the law and was allowed to join the Navy instead of 10 years probation. But I've read and studied, and became an autodidact, so at least I'm not quite as ignorant as I once was. My ignorance still overwhelms me, though.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 02:29:10 PM
More conventional in my case.  College was still cheap in the 70s, even if you were doing STEM.  I thought that military and regular work weren't the best investment of my early adulthood.  But I broke the mold, eventually becoming an autodidact also, but long after I got my master's ... which I finished 8 years after my BS.  The problem with engineering is that you still need to be apprenticed after you graduate from college.  And nobody wants you as an apprentice.  Sink or swim work world.  Programming is even more cut throat, and usually you are coding more as an individual than as a team.  Teamwork is necessary in engineering or nothing gets done.  Prima donnas prefer programming for that reason.  In computer operations for the last 20+ years.  Teamwork like in engineering, but less intense than programming.

On the OP.  Business is paying (as loans or benefits to schools) for the educational system.  They want worker bees, who will work for next to nothing.  So basically forget an education (unless you can go to a very special liberal arts school).  Julliard for example.  The Americans have always been pragmatists, not impressed by pseudo-intellectuals like the Germans and French.  The English are intermediate.  If by educated, being programmed into being a Soros-bot ... well I have no need for that, or wish to pay for it either.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 03:48:30 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on August 27, 2018, 02:06:12 PM
I agree. I didn't even finish high school - well, I did get a GED. I only finished 10th grade and then got in trouble with the law and was allowed to join the Navy instead of 10 years probation. But I've read and studied, and became an autodidact, so at least I'm not quite as ignorant as I once was. My ignorance still overwhelms me, though.

There is sometimes just a time to say "Good On Ya".  Srsly, good work.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Jason78 on August 27, 2018, 06:32:59 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on August 27, 2018, 04:44:57 AM
Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?

Read the TV guide.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Unbeliever on August 27, 2018, 06:47:53 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 03:48:30 PM
There is sometimes just a time to say "Good On Ya".  Srsly, good work.
My schooling was very much atypical: I went to a different school every single year, because we moved around so much, for whatever reason (I still don't know the reason). So I was always the new kid on the block. I completely skipped the 5th grade, because my adopted parents got divorced when I was 10 y.o. and neither wanted me, so they put me in a boys' camp for a year and a half. That was pretty cool, though - no school, and we got to take canoe trips to Caddo lake (https://www.google.com/search?q=caddo+lake&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwib7afwpY7dAhVgGDQIHVcQBSEQsAR6BAgDEAE&biw=1024&bih=608) and a 600 mile canoe trip down the Sabine river (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1024&bih=608&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=Q32EW46MOt-80PEPtY-VyA8&q=sabine+river&oq=sabine+river&gs_l=img.3..0l10.56905.60740.0.61002.13.10.0.3.3.0.80.563.8.8.0....0...1c.1.64.img..2.11.603.0..35i39k1j0i67k1.0.m57h0cSNEaY). After that they let me go on to the 6th grade, somewhere, I don't really recall where.

Every year the stuff they'd teach at whatever school I was at would be the same stuff I'd been taught the previous year at whatever other school I'd been at. So it was very boring, though my grades were pretty good. During the 10th grade I was at Skyline high in Dallas, living at Buckner's Orphan's Home. I started the 11th grade, but I got in trouble with the law, as I mentioned, and went "on the lam" until caught. They were going to give me 10 years probation, but since I was (just barely) old enough to join the service, they let me join the Navy. This was in 1973, and that was the last of any schooling for me - except for the school of hard knocks.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 08:35:15 PM
Quote from: Jason78 on August 27, 2018, 06:32:59 PM
Read the TV guide.

What do you think?

The Know Nothings ... were Trump came from ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Draconic Aiur on August 28, 2018, 12:04:05 AM
Oh America is very educated. It's just our government and our economy want dumb people more. Thy also want you to work years on a shitty wage and shitty job because they "lack" the infrastructure to make jobs that require your college degree. They also "lack" the commitment when thy want you to go to said college and earn a degree only to spend your life in a garbage can while everyone who isn't discriminated against has the "American Dream".

Then when bringing up solutions libertarians and republicans (also known as fucking retards) bitch and moan about communism and socialism saying its the worst thing while Big companies hide in plain site (with a political smile) and with stupid small business owners parading their incompetence at running a business. Our government reeks of corruption and our people are educated but brainwashed to follow these corrupted fucks.

Red scare tactics is a bitch to defeat.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on August 28, 2018, 06:05:29 AM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on August 28, 2018, 12:04:05 AM
Oh America is very educated. It's just our government and our economy want dumb people more. Thy also want you to work years on a shitty wage and shitty job because they "lack" the infrastructure to make jobs that require your college degree. They also "lack" the commitment when thy want you to go to said college and earn a degree only to spend your life in a garbage can while everyone who isn't discriminated against has the "American Dream".

Then when bringing up solutions libertarians and republicans (also known as fucking retards) bitch and moan about communism and socialism saying its the worst thing while Big companies hide in plain site (with a political smile) and with stupid small business owners parading their incompetence at running a business. Our government reeks of corruption and our people are educated but brainwashed to follow these corrupted fucks.

Red scare tactics is a bitch to defeat.

Sorry, French Revolution didn't save France, and won't save you either.  But I understand the frustration.  There is no salvation.  Because "it is what it is".
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: trdsf on August 28, 2018, 01:19:34 PM
Oh, it's much worse than being an uneducated country.

We're a country that doesn't value education in the first place.  Just look at the solution most often offered to "improve" schools: vouchers and charter schools.  No, don't fund public schools fully and properly, let's take away from their already inadequate budgets and privatize education so someone can make a profit off of it because profits fix everything.  Oh, and rather than teaching critical thinking skills, let's just cram data so children can pass a test rather than actually use their knowledge.  Mustn't forget that step.

You may sense a certain bitterness here.  I genuinely feel like I'm watching my country blow its own brains out one generation at a time.  This is not just a "kids these days" thing.  Even back when I was in grade school, my parents would go to PTA meetings and no one wanted to hear about what the bright kids were doing, they wanted to know what the athletic kids were doing.  My own parents were told point blank that "nobody cares" what their smart kid was up to.  The boy that looked like a good prospect for the junior high football team?  That was meaningful to them.

And this was during the Space Race, when science and engineering were presented more positively than any other era I can think of.

America isn't an uneducated country, it's a don't-even-want-to-be-educated country.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Unbeliever on August 28, 2018, 01:25:26 PM
Not only do we not have an informed electorate, we have a mis-informed electorate. "Alternative facts" will be the death of this country.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: SoldierofFortune on August 28, 2018, 02:32:24 PM
It'S crucial what we understand from the phrase: To be educated.

If you assess well the world outside you, we name you educated well; on whatever subject of course: Basics of natural world, some math, history, geography, geometry, philosophy, and morale values...

Levels vary of course but to make yourself direct to spesyphic branch determines what you will be, your professional fate was seen a littly bit.
Besides, and to stasfy our intellectual life we can do hobbies activities. These hobby area is our chose. But we can'T learn everything. we have to be limited. Limits vary from person to person.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on August 28, 2018, 04:04:24 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on August 28, 2018, 01:25:26 PM
Not only do we not have an informed electorate, we have a mis-informed electorate. "Alternative facts" will be the death of this country.

Good riddance.  Back to Papal infallibility and the rich living in castles ;-)
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: GrinningYMIR on August 28, 2018, 11:40:16 PM
Sports and entertainment will take precedence in most Americans minds, if their kid is the star athlete that can do a lot more in their minds Han great grades, at least that’s how they think
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Unbeliever on August 29, 2018, 01:46:48 PM
Maybe people really believe their kid will become a multi-millionaire in a pro-sports league, but I think most kids don't meet that expectation.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 11:18:49 AM
Quote from: Jason78 on August 27, 2018, 06:32:59 PM
Read the TV guide.

What do you think?

TV Guide still exists?  I haven't seen it even in the grocery store checkout aisle for a decade.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on September 08, 2018, 11:56:10 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 11:18:49 AM
TV Guide still exists?  I haven't seen it even in the grocery store checkout aisle for a decade.

The Deep State uses Facebook now, to bamboozle the public.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: SGOS on September 08, 2018, 01:53:13 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 11:18:49 AM
TV Guide still exists?  I haven't seen it even in the grocery store checkout aisle for a decade.
Recently, I saw an internet ad for TV Guide.  I then thought with 500 channels, it must be the size of an encyclopedia.  Then I realized it wasn't a subscription.  It was an ad for old TV Guides being sold as memorabilia. 
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 01:55:05 PM
Quote from: SGOS on September 08, 2018, 01:53:13 PM
Recently, I saw an internet ad for TV Guide.  I then thought with 500 channels, it must be the size of an encyclopedia.  Then I realized it wasn't a subscription.  It was an ad for old TV Guides being sold as memorabilia.

Actually, now that I think about it, the channel descriptions on my HD internet say "TV Guide".  Change and prosper, I guess.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: GSOgymrat on October 28, 2018, 02:03:24 AM
Leaving the country to escape student loan debt seems pretty extreme. The rising student loan debt is worrisome.

These Americans fled the country to escape their giant student debt

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/26/he-moved-to-a-jungle-in-india-to-escape-his-student-debt--and-hes-not-alone-.html

Chad Haag considered living in a cave to escape his student debt. He had a friend doing it. But after some plotting, he settled on what he considered a less risky plan. This year, he relocated to a jungle in India. "I've put America behind me," Haag, 29, said.

He now lives in a concrete house in the village of Uchakkada for $50 a month. His backyard is filled with coconut trees and chickens. "I saw four elephants just yesterday," he said, adding that he hopes to never set foot in a Walmart again.

His debt is currently on its way to default. But more than 9,000 miles away from Colorado, Haag said, his student loans don't feel real anymore.

"It's kind of like, if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it, does it really exist?" he said.

The philosophy major concedes that his student loan balance of around $20,000 isn't as large as the burden shouldered by many other borrowers, but he said his difficulty finding a college-level job in the U.S. has made that debt oppressive nonetheless. "If you're not making a living wage," Haag said, "$20,000 in debt is devastating."

He struggled to come up with the $300 a month he owed. The first work he found after he graduated from the University of Northern Colorado in 2011 â€" when the recession's effects were still palpable â€" was on-again, off-again hours at a factory, unloading trucks and constructing toy rockets on an assembly line. He then went back to school to pursue a master's degree in comparative literature at the University of Colorado Boulder. After that, he tried to make it as an adjunct professor, but still he could barely scrape a living together with the one class a semester he was assigned.

Haag had some hope restored when he landed full-time work as a medical courier in Denver, delivering urine and blood samples to hospitals. However, he was disappointed to find that he brought home just $1,700 a month. He had little money left over after he paid his student loan bill. He couldn't afford an apartment in the city, where rents have been rising sharply. He lived with his mother and rarely went out with friends.

"I couldn't make the math work in America," Haag said.

Milestones that seemed like pipe dreams back home, like starting a family, and owning a house, are now on his horizon. This year he married an Indian citizen, a professor at a local college. He now has a five-year spousal visa, and plans to renew it when the time comes.
Adjusting to a new country, he admitted, has not been entirely easy.

"Some toilets here are holes in the ground you squat over," Haag said. Recently, he ate spoiled goat meat at a local restaurant and landed in the emergency room.

Still, he said, "I have a higher standard of living in a Third World country than I would in America, because of my student loans."...


(https://sc.cnbcfm.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/files/2018/09/13/Unknown-2.png)
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Hydra009 on October 28, 2018, 02:16:44 AM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on October 28, 2018, 02:03:24 AMHe now lives in a concrete house in the village of Uchakkada for $50 a month. His backyard is filled with coconut trees and chickens. "I saw four elephants just yesterday," he said, adding that he hopes to never set foot in a Walmart again.
To be fair, the dream of never again setting foot in a Walmart is pretty much a universal aspiration.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on October 28, 2018, 02:34:25 AM
The liberal student debt, that can't be discharged in bankruptcy ... is a bipartisan policy, started by Bill and accelerated by Barak.

https://www.vox.com/cards/student-debt/why-has-student-debt-increased-so-much

See Total Student Debt by Graduating Class ...

https://mic.com/articles/117644/it-s-official-the-class-of-2015-has-the-most-student-loan-debt-in-history#.YGeXTrkSP

This was deliberately created to produce debt peonage.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on October 28, 2018, 02:37:08 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 28, 2018, 02:16:44 AM
To be fair, the dream of never again setting foot in a Walmart is pretty much a universal aspiration.

Then you are not supporting the Chinese economy, or are you?  China has moved into Africa in a big way.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: SGOS on October 28, 2018, 07:05:29 AM
I have an idea.  We need to create government sanctioned agency that will buy up all the college debts issued by colleges and other lending institutions, so that those institutions don't need to worry about collecting the debts.  Then the agency will take large clusters of these debt obligations and package them into bonds that can be sold in the financial markets.  Moody's and Standard and Poor's can rate these bonds as triple AAA, because they are loans taken out by people who have the American dream of being smart, and everyone knows smart people are likely to pay back the money they borrowed,... even if they can't get a job.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: pr126 on October 28, 2018, 07:27:14 AM
Not as much uneducated but indoctrinated with Marxist ideology for decades.
Preparing the next generation for serfdom.

Intelligent, knowledgeable people are difficult to control.

Plenty of Youtube videos where young students on the streets unable to answer basic questions.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: SGOS on October 28, 2018, 08:22:12 AM
Quote from: pr126 on October 28, 2018, 07:27:14 AM
Plenty of Youtube videos where young students on the streets unable to answer basic questions.
I haven't actually googled "young students on the streets unable to answer basic questions", but I'm sure such videos exist because the average IQ is 100, and by definition, half the population is below that.  Consequently, the same can be said of adults, and you don't have to read very far or watch much of the news to see human ignorance in any age group.  Stupid adults breed stupid young people.  I don't know how you get around it.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on October 28, 2018, 08:38:21 AM
Quote from: SGOS on October 28, 2018, 08:22:12 AM
I haven't actually googled "young students on the streets unable to answer basic questions", but I'm sure such videos exist because the average IQ is 100, and by definition, half the population is below that.  Consequently, the same can be said of adults, and you don't have to read very far or watch much of the news to see human ignorance in any age group.  Stupid adults breed stupid young people.  I don't know how you get around it.

Eugenics.  The Chinese always absorb invaders.  We all need to invade China, so our descendants will look just like the people who already live there.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on October 28, 2018, 08:40:30 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 28, 2018, 02:16:44 AM
To be fair, the dream of never again setting foot in a Walmart is pretty much a universal aspiration.

The Einsatz-gruppen will take care of the defaulters ;-(
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Blackleaf on October 29, 2018, 08:29:14 PM
Quote from: pr126 on October 28, 2018, 07:27:14 AM
Not as much uneducated but indoctrinated with Marxist ideology for decades.
Preparing the next generation for serfdom.

Intelligent, knowledgeable people are difficult to control.

Plenty of Youtube videos where young students on the streets unable to answer basic questions.

Ah, yes. Marxism is so popular here in America. Everyone in America just hates that damn old capitalism.

Seriously, stop watching Fox News. It's rotting your brain.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: pr126 on October 30, 2018, 02:10:34 AM
Quote from: Blackleaf on October 29, 2018, 08:29:14 PM
Ah, yes. Marxism is so popular here in America. Everyone in America just hates that damn old capitalism.

Seriously, stop watching Fox News. It's rotting your brain.

Occasional Cortex, the new darling of the Democrat Party?
Peddling "Democratic" Socialism?
Nothing to do with Marxism. No Sir.

(http://www.themainewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Alexandria.jpg)

Bernie Sanders.
The academic  Cultural Marxist indoctrination.
Mainstream Media bias.
Hollywood. Entertainment business.


Critical Theory.
The Fabian Society.
The Frankfurt Scool.
Globalism.
Antifa.
BLM
Feminism.
Transgender Ideology.
Identity politics
LGBTX+
90+ Genders
Meaningless gender pronouns.
Political correctness.
Safe spaces.
Speech codes.
Open borders.
Uncontrolled migration.


Description of the white male:

white supremacist
patriarchal,
far right
toxic masculinity
oppressor
sexual predator
xenophobic
Islamophobic
fascist


Nothing Marxist about these.  Not at all.
This is the America you want to live in? This is what you want for future generation?

Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Blackleaf on October 30, 2018, 02:54:52 AM
Quote from: pr126 on October 30, 2018, 02:10:34 AM
Occasional Cortex, the new darling of the Democrat Party?
Peddling "Democratic" Socialism?
Nothing to do with Marxism. No Sir.

(http://www.themainewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Alexandria.jpg)

Bernie Sanders.
The academic  Cultural Marxist indoctrination.
Mainstream Media bias.
Hollywood. Entertainment business.


Critical Theory.
The Fabian Society.
The Frankfurt Scool.
Globalism.
Antifa.
Feminism.
Transgender Ideology.
LGBTX+
90+ Genders
Meaningless gender pronouns.
Political correctness.
Safe spaces.
Speech codes.
Open borders.
Uncontrolled migration.


Description of the white male:

white supremacist
patriarchal,
far right
toxic masculinity
oppressor
sexual predator
xenophobic
Islamophobic
fascist


Nothing Marxist about these.  Not at all.
This is the America you want to live in? This is what you want for future generation?

Like I said, stop watching Fox News. You're spewing bullshit. Mischaracterizing the Left doesn't help your case. It just makes you look like an idiot.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: pr126 on October 30, 2018, 03:03:24 AM
Deny reality all you want. 
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on October 30, 2018, 03:13:11 AM
Quote from: pr126 on October 30, 2018, 03:03:24 AM
Deny reality all you want.

The Left in the 60s were "mischaracterized" ... or maybe they had no character at all?  If the Vietnam War had been a good war, then we should have put the Left where traitors are put.  But who can tell except in hindsight?  Is any of the current warmongering by Democrats a good war or not?  Might as well extol the pacifism of the Republicans ;-)

The Left = France ... so misunderstood, particularly that Napoleon fellow.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: pr126 on October 30, 2018, 03:31:11 AM
Isn’t Marxist education wonderful?
You create the voters you want.
We will see next Tuesday how effective it was.

Blackleaf wrote:
QuoteLike I said, stop watching Fox News. You're spewing bullshit. Mischaracterizing the Left doesn't help your case. It just makes you look like an idiot.
Can you refute any of the things I mentioned, or as usual only spewing ad hominems?








Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on October 30, 2018, 06:17:55 AM
Quote from: pr126 on October 30, 2018, 03:31:11 AM
Isn’t Marxist education wonderful?
You create the voters you want.
We will see next Tuesday how effective it was.

Blackleaf wrote:Can you refute any of the things I mentioned, or as usual only spewing ad hominems?

A warning ... Americans don't understand American politics, it must be pretty impossible for someone not American to understand it.  Of course you will see us thru a British lens.  I consider the Labor party much more leftist than the Democrats.  We don't have a monarchy to overthrow.  Our conservatives are struggling to establish a monarchy.  Which means .. the Clintons are clearly conservative (liberals are totally fooled by the shuck and jive routine).
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Sal1981 on October 30, 2018, 08:22:06 AM
Quote from: pr126 on October 30, 2018, 03:31:11 AM




Quote from: Blackleaf on October 30, 2018, 02:54:52 AM
Like I said, stop watching Fox News. You're spewing bullshit. Mischaracterizing the Left doesn't help your case. It just makes you look like an idiot.
Can you refute any of the things I mentioned, or as usual only spewing ad hominems?
Not an Ad Hominem.


An Ad Hominem would be like; you're wrong because you're an idiot, as an example. Just saying you look like an idiot isn't an argument in itself.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: PopeyesPappy on October 30, 2018, 09:54:23 AM
No, the US is not an essentially uneducated country.

Our tertiary graduation rate is better than most countries including places like Finland, South Korea, and the UK.

Higher is better

(https://i.imgur.com/W9X3YlD.png)

And the US has a higher percentage of people with some type of post secondary education than most countries including places like Finland, South Korea, and the UK.

Lower is better

(https://i.imgur.com/kaD9lko.png)

Charts are here (https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/graduation-rate.htm#indicator-chart).
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Blackleaf on October 30, 2018, 11:47:02 AM
Quote from: pr126 on October 30, 2018, 03:03:24 AM
Deny reality all you want.

I'm a Leftist, you moron. Do I hate white people? No. Am I a Socialist/Marxist? No. Do I believe in one hundred genders? No, but I don't give a shit what people choose to identify as. Am I Antifa? No. Do I believe in, use, or have ever witnessed safe spaces? No. Do I believe in open borders? No, but I believe in treating people who are here like human beings. Do I believe that Muslims are immune to criticism? Fuck no. Which people do all of these things? The strawmen Leftists you watch on Fox News and your moronic Youtube videos.

Quote from: pr126 on October 30, 2018, 03:31:11 AM
Isn’t Marxist education wonderful?
You create the voters you want.
We will see next Tuesday how effective it was.

Once again, can you prove that voter fraud is a problem? Do you have evidence? No, of course not. You're just spewing Right Wing bullshit you heard and asserting it as self-evident truth.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: pr126 on October 30, 2018, 12:44:06 PM
Quote from: Blackleaf on October 30, 2018, 11:47:02 AM
I'm a Leftist, you moron. Do I hate white people? No. Am I a Socialist/Marxist? No. Do I believe in one hundred genders? No, but I don't give a shit what people choose to identify as. Am I Antifa? No. Do I believe in, use, or have ever witnessed safe spaces? No. Do I believe in open borders? No, but I believe in treating people who are here like human beings. Do I believe that Muslims are immune to criticism? Fuck no. Which people do all of these things? The strawmen Leftists you watch on Fox News and your moronic Youtube videos.

Once again, can you prove that voter fraud is a problem? Do you have evidence? No, of course not. You're just spewing Right Wing bullshit you heard and asserting it as self-evident truth.
Have I addressed the post to you? NO.
Have I actually accused you personally of any of the points I made?  NO.
Have I implied voters fraud in my post? NO.

Have you responded with ad hominem? YES.


Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on October 30, 2018, 12:44:49 PM
Quote from: Sal1981 on October 30, 2018, 08:22:06 AM
Can you refute any of the things I mentioned, or as usual only spewing ad hominems?
Not an Ad Hominem.


An Ad Hominem would be like; you're wrong because you're an idiot, as an example. Just saying you look like an idiot isn't an argument in itself.

So sophomoric or juvenile instead?
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on October 30, 2018, 12:46:38 PM
Quote from: Blackleaf on October 30, 2018, 11:47:02 AM
I'm a Leftist, you moron. Do I hate white people? No. Am I a Socialist/Marxist? No. Do I believe in one hundred genders? No, but I don't give a shit what people choose to identify as. Am I Antifa? No. Do I believe in, use, or have ever witnessed safe spaces? No. Do I believe in open borders? No, but I believe in treating people who are here like human beings. Do I believe that Muslims are immune to criticism? Fuck no. Which people do all of these things? The strawmen Leftists you watch on Fox News and your moronic Youtube videos.

Once again, can you prove that voter fraud is a problem? Do you have evidence? No, of course not. You're just spewing Right Wing bullshit you heard and asserting it as self-evident truth.

But if you are a "straw man" Leftist ... then are you made of straw?  Is it true that Leftists are so individualist, that like gender dysphoria ... there are as many kinds of Left as their are Leftists? Just asking.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on October 30, 2018, 12:48:12 PM
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on October 30, 2018, 09:54:23 AM
No, the US is not an essentially uneducated country.

Our tertiary graduation rate is better than most countries including places like Finland, South Korea, and the UK.

Higher is better

(https://i.imgur.com/W9X3YlD.png)

And the US has a higher percentage of people with some type of post secondary education than most countries including places like Finland, South Korea, and the UK.

Lower is better

(https://i.imgur.com/kaD9lko.png)

Charts are here (https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/graduation-rate.htm#indicator-chart).

You didn't get the point ... Swedish = educated, non-Swedish = non-educated.

Fact is graduation rates don't mean much if the quality is poor.  Bad quality cancels out high quantity.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Blackleaf on October 30, 2018, 11:08:14 PM
Quote from: pr126 on October 30, 2018, 12:44:06 PM
Have I addressed the post to you? NO.
Have I actually accused you personally of any of the points I made?  NO.
Have I implied voters fraud in my post? NO.

Have you responded with ad hominem? YES.

Do you continually generalize about Leftists? Yes.
Are you incapable of sticking to the point and addressing any counterarguments? Yes.
Do you know what an ad hominem is? Evidently, no.

You didn't imply voter fraud? Explain what this means, then:

Quote from: pr126 on October 30, 2018, 03:31:11 AMYou create the voters you want.
We will see next Tuesday how effective it was.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: pr126 on October 30, 2018, 11:37:10 PM
Quote from: Blackleaf on October 30, 2018, 11:08:14 PM
Do you continually generalize about Leftists? Yes.
Are you incapable of sticking to the point and addressing any counterarguments? Yes.
Do you know what an ad hominem is? Evidently, no.

You didn't imply voter fraud? Explain what this means, then:
"You create the voters you want.
We will see next Tuesday how effective it was."

I meant that the Marxist professors create the next generation of Democrat voters.
They turn out activist, protestors, who hate America, capitalism, in effect indoctrinating students.

That's how they create the voters they want.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: GSOgymrat on October 31, 2018, 12:03:51 AM
Quote from: pr126 on October 30, 2018, 11:37:10 PM
I meant that the Marxist professors create the next generation of Democrat voters.
They turn out activist, protestors, who hate America, capitalism, in effect indoctrinating students.

That's how they create the voters they want.

Young Americans tend to not vote, especially in midterms, so that may put your mind at ease.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on October 31, 2018, 01:03:22 AM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on October 31, 2018, 12:03:51 AM
Young Americans tend to not vote, especially in midterms, so that may put your mind at ease.

I don't think anything can, for pr126.

For me ... "this too shall pass".  In one week, what will be, will be.  And it won't matter, because humanity has no value.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Hydra009 on October 31, 2018, 01:11:47 AM
Quote from: Blackleaf on October 30, 2018, 02:54:52 AMLike I said, stop watching Fox News. You're spewing bullshit. Mischaracterizing the Left doesn't help your case. It just makes you look like an idiot.
Au contraire, PR should absolutely keep it up.  And PR, please try to get as many of your right-wing friends to believe it, too.  It makes the right look completely idiotic, with the added bonus that they have no idea how to counter leftist messaging because they have no idea what Leftists actually believe.  The more you lose touch with reality (which is already pretty considerable), the more vulnerable you become.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: pr126 on October 31, 2018, 01:39:38 AM
Hey, I didn't elect Trump, it was the completely idiotic American right, who has lost touch with reality.

Apparently, America is now better off. Economy, employment, revised (beneficial) trade deals.
And migrants from all over want to live there.



Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Hydra009 on October 31, 2018, 01:50:26 AM
Careful, you got dangerously close to having a coherent point. Don't break character.

Do more feminists in the closet, Muslims under the bed, and "illegals" (wink, wink) at the door type stuff.  Really clown it up.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Blackleaf on October 31, 2018, 02:40:16 AM
Quote from: pr126 on October 30, 2018, 11:37:10 PM
I meant that the Marxist professors create the next generation of Democrat voters.
They turn out activist, protestors, who hate America, capitalism, in effect indoctrinating students.

That's how they create the voters they want.

(https://i1.sndcdn.com/artworks-000322933404-2qsvhm-t500x500.jpg)

We've discussed this "indoctrination" bullshit already. I find I have to repeat myself with you quite often. Colleges do not indoctrinate students. How much experience do you have in the American secondary educational system? Since you're not an American, it's probably safe to assume you have none. I started college in 2007, spent nearly a decade earning my Associates, Bachelors, and Masters Degrees. Never once did I feel pressured to change my mind. Know why? Because that's not the goal of the typical college professor. College teaches students how to think, not what to think. It teaches them critical thinking skills and provides reliable sources of knowledge. College students do not tend to become Liberals because their "Marxist professors" tell them to. Students tend to lean that way because they learn how to spot the bullshit from the Right, and naturally become repelled by their ideology.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: GSOgymrat on October 31, 2018, 03:07:03 AM
If we want to talk about indoctrination, the most effective are the military academies and Christian universities.

The 70 Most Conservative Colleges in America

https://blog.prepscholar.com/most-conservative-colleges

Conservative colleges are politically right-wing. The students tend to favor conservative positions like outlawing abortion, reducing the size of government, and protecting gun rights.

Christian colleges are often more conservative. Many Christian colleges adhere to more traditional social views and rules that attract conservative Christian students and faculty.

Furthermore, conservative colleges are more strict and regimented than liberal colleges. Conservative religious colleges like BYU and the College of the Ozarks have strict rules that all students must follow. At BYU, male students can’t have beards or long hair. These colleges are much less tolerant of alcohol and drug use than liberal colleges. Also, the armed service academies are known for being conservative. They have many more rules than the average college regarding personal appearance and conduct.

Finally, the most conservative colleges often reflect the political leanings of their locations. Many of the most conservative colleges are located in conservative states. Examples of conservative colleges in conservative locations include Clemson University (South Carolina), Utah State, and the University of Alabama. However, there are conservative colleges in liberal states. Pepperdine and Thomas Aquinas College are conservative colleges in California, but they’re both Christian colleges.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on October 31, 2018, 03:58:35 AM
Christian colleges are mostly a joke.  Liberty University or Oral Roberts University anyone?  The military high schools are for truants.  The military academies ... well pacifists or traitors would oppose those.

In the Roman Republic, you couldn't serve in an important office, without at least 10 years military officer experience.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: SGOS on October 31, 2018, 07:24:57 AM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on October 31, 2018, 03:07:03 AM
If we want to talk about indoctrination, the most effective are the military academies and Christian universities.
Most colleges and universities are not all that political.  They may lean slightly in one direction or another, but not in a way that I would label indoctrinating.  And teaching students to think is not indoctrination.  It's the desired outcome of education.  From my experience most of the political activities on campuses are actually orchestrated by the students, although by nature, most agitators would prefer to work from the outside as manipulators, so you can't always tell. 

But introduce "military" or "Christian" into the educational system and it's about indoctrination or serving the indoctrinated.  Not to say that none  of those institutions offer solid coursework in some areas.  Our major military institutions have high academic standards, but you can bet you come out with a clear understanding of top down management.  If you want to learn the sciences, you would be wise to avoid Christian institutions.

But your comment does a good job showing how PR's anti academic claims about American institutions are an empty regurgitation of extreme right wing politics.  They might be the most nakedly open and easily identifiable examples of projecting ones own faults onto someone else.  His claims may be vicious, but his claims about Marxist indoctrination at colleges are devoid of reason and amazingly empty criticisms.  It's astounding to me that he believes it.

He tries to support this nonsense by the fallacy of generalization.  He sees some Utube video about some mostly unheard of college happening way out in the fringes, and through lack of actual personal experience, claims this is normal.  But the only reason it's "news" in the first place is that it's [ab] normal.  I will admit that colleges and universities are where students tend to do a lot of thinking that is clearly outside the traditional "box", but I wouldn't go off the deep end and call it Marxist or Communist.  That's just silly nonsense.



Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: GSOgymrat on October 31, 2018, 10:43:50 AM
Quote from: SGOS on October 31, 2018, 07:24:57 AM
He sees some Utube video about some mostly unheard of college happening way out in the fringes, and through lack of actual personal experience, claims this is normal.  But the only reason it's "news" in the first place is that it's [ab] normal.

I'm not referring to pr126, but fringe mining is one of my pet peeves. Some YouTubers across the political spectrum make their entire living finding outliers and using them as evidence to support their agenda. They mock some blue-haired nineteen-year-old college student YouTuber who goes off on an emotional rant or cite a conservative preacher in Utah with a congregation of 400 who is calling for the death of group X and then step up on their soapbox saying this is yet another example of why Z is a problem. They don't focus on the individual in question but use that person's behavior as evidence that group A is bad and WE, group B, are so much more reasonable. "So if you like what I do please click the "like" button and support my work on Patreon." Outrage sells, it's stimulating, addictive and makes people money.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Blackleaf on October 31, 2018, 12:36:34 PM
Come to think of it, the only time my professors were open about their beliefs and pushed them was at the Christian university I earned my Masters from. My presumably Liberal professors kept their own opinions, religious, political, or otherwise, mostly to themselves. That Christian university is also the one I was attending when I switched from Conservative Christian to Liberal Atheist. Coincidence? I don't think so.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: trdsf on October 31, 2018, 06:38:27 PM
Quote from: SGOS on October 31, 2018, 07:24:57 AM
Most colleges and universities are not all that political.  They may lean slightly in one direction or another, but not in a way that I would label indoctrinating.  And teaching students to think is not indoctrination.  It's the desired outcome of education.  From my experience most of the political activities on campuses are actually orchestrated by the students, although by nature, most agitators would prefer to work from the outside as manipulators, so you can't always tell. 

But introduce "military" or "Christian" into the educational system and it's about indoctrination or serving the indoctrinated.  Not to say that none  of those institutions offer solid coursework in some areas.  Our major military institutions have high academic standards, but you can bet you come out with a clear understanding of top down management.  If you want to learn the sciences, you would be wise to avoid Christian institutions.

But your comment does a good job showing how PR's anti academic claims about American institutions are an empty regurgitation of extreme right wing politics.  They might be the most nakedly open and easily identifiable examples of projecting ones own faults onto someone else.  His claims may be vicious, but his claims about Marxist indoctrination at colleges are devoid of reason and amazingly empty criticisms.  It's astounding to me that he believes it.

He tries to support this nonsense by the fallacy of generalization.  He sees some Utube video about some mostly unheard of college happening way out in the fringes, and through lack of actual personal experience, claims this is normal.  But the only reason it's "news" in the first place is that it's [ab] normal.  I will admit that colleges and universities are where students tend to do a lot of thinking that is clearly outside the traditional "box", but I wouldn't go off the deep end and call it Marxist or Communist.  That's just silly nonsense.
Absolutely.  My alma mater is generally considered a "liberal" one, and on top of that I majored in political science, which you would think would be the hub of so-called indoctrination.

Nope.  In fact, it was a Wooster poli sci prof who said in political theory class that the only political theoretician that ever went from page to practice without major modification was... Niccolò Machiavelli.  Hardly Marx, Engels, Debs, Thomas or Harrington there.  We were expected to be able to explain Burke as well as Locke, to say nothing of being as well read of Robert Nozick as well as John Rawls.  And certainly the College Republicans were at least as active (and definitely better organized) than the College Democrats, without interference from the faculty or administration.

Generally, I find the claim of "marxist professors indoctrinating students" to be a pathetic whine from those who are pissed off that students aren't being forced to undergo exclusively right-wing indoctrination -- at least not outside "Liberty" and Bob Jones -- as well as being an admission that they haven't the faintest fucking idea what Marxism actually is.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on October 31, 2018, 07:02:34 PM
Poly Sci vs someone from E Europe?  Really?  Also college may be much different than it was 40 years ago.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: SGOS on October 31, 2018, 08:06:44 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on October 31, 2018, 10:43:50 AM
I'm not referring to pr126...
Fair enough.  I was, but not just him.  He represents a mindset that processes information the same way on this side of the pond.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Cavebear on November 17, 2018, 01:16:24 AM
Quote from: SGOS on October 31, 2018, 08:06:44 PM
Fair enough.  I was, but not just him.  He represents a mindset that processes information the same way on this side of the pond.

As much as I want to think that democracy-oriented people in different places tend to think alike, I keep learning that they do not.  Western Europe does not quite understand the US and vice versa.  It may be the long history of Europe vs the short history of the US experiment.  It may be the history of having monarchies.  It may be the habit of internecine European warfare.  I don't know.

But it is surely something.

I sometimes think it is the isolated nature of the US.  Bismark once commented that the US is the luckiest nation because it has 2 oceans and 2 weak neighbors, but I don't think even that is "it".  There seems do be more. 

I think we are partly utterly practical, just practicing war on ourselves until we got good at it (the trench warfare at the end of our Civil War was the tactics of WWi), but also impractical, having an ideology causum bellum before engaging.

I think of this often.  I don't totally understand it, but there really is a difference between the US and Western Europe.

And in case you are wondering why I keep mentioning Western Europe, it is because Eastern Europe is a complete fucked mess of hatred and ancient memories of atrocities.  I saw a post elsewhere complaining of a Slavic battle in the 12th century as if it was yesterday. 

You can't survive that way.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on November 17, 2018, 07:08:35 AM
Cavebear -

Europe = begins with E
America = begins with A

Europe sent all their losers here ... and kept the winners ... how did that work out for them?

Your poly-sci classes must have mushed your brain.  Parliament in GB is much better than the US Congress, as legislatures go.  Compare them in actual operation.  So not everything is better in America.  The British judicial system isn't a matter of "contested advocacy" but of "fact finding".  So GB compares favorably there.  The one thing we have that they don't have, is our President is CinC ... and we have no monarchy (though Kennedy, Bush, and Clinton tried to create one).  Our executive branch is somewhat superior.  And Federal + State + County + Municipality is much superior to GB, where local councils are a recent and badly run institution.  The monarchy couldn't share power.  It was absolute before Louis XIV was even born aka least feudal.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: trdsf on November 17, 2018, 11:27:05 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on November 17, 2018, 01:16:24 AM
And in case you are wondering why I keep mentioning Western Europe, it is because Eastern Europe is a complete fucked mess of hatred and ancient memories of atrocities.  I saw a post elsewhere complaining of a Slavic battle in the 12th century as if it was yesterday. 
Heck, that existed even in my own recent family history.  Five of my great-grandparents emigrated from Poland when there legally was no Poland to come from as it was divided between Russia, Prussia and Austria â€" but don't dare suggest they weren't Polish, even though their emigration papers were in German.  When I was little, I found family events confusing because some of my relatives kept the Germanized spelling of the family name from the immigration papers (Schultz) and some took back the original Polish spelling (Szul).
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on November 18, 2018, 01:08:02 AM
Bohemian ancestors, from Austro-Hungarian Empire, shipped out thru Hamburg circa 1874.  They hated the Germans of course.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Unbeliever on December 02, 2018, 07:39:18 PM
QuoteAccording to data from Pew, 58% of Republicans believe that higher education is bad for America and puts us on the wrong path. To put it another way â€" a majority of Republicans think that education is a bad thing. This explains a lot about the Republican Party because without uneducated voters, the only people left supporting the GOP would be a handful of millionaires and billionaires.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzgxC6adz2Y


I don't know why this surprises me, but I'm gob-smacked by it!
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Munch on December 02, 2018, 07:52:12 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNqJ-PBRqj0

Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on December 02, 2018, 08:06:40 PM
Munch - Black Friday involving actual Black people?  What do they think they are, White trailer trash? ;-)

Unbeliever - of course education is bad.  Thomas Jefferson supported education.  So did Karl Marx.  Thomas Jefferson owned Black slaves.  Karl Marx wanted to enslave the proletariat.  Both dead White men, therefore education must be bad ;-)
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Munch on December 02, 2018, 09:01:21 PM
Quote from: Baruch on December 02, 2018, 08:06:40 PM
Munch - Black Friday involving actual Black people?  What do they think they are, White trailer trash? ;-)

Unbeliever - of course education is bad.  Thomas Jefferson supported education.  So did Karl Marx.  Thomas Jefferson owned Black slaves.  Karl Marx wanted to enslave the proletariat.  Both dead White men, therefore education must be bad ;-)

some of them could be. what would trailer park trash count as in south Africa?
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on December 02, 2018, 09:37:40 PM
Quote from: Munch on December 02, 2018, 09:01:21 PM
some of them could be. what would trailer park trash count as in south Africa?

Depends on if you get burned alive in an ANC flaming tire ceremony.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Cavebear on December 05, 2018, 05:18:34 AM
Basic education is never a negative.  The kind of education might be, though.  A creationist university is not an education (quite frankly it is dis-education).  Any state university is.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Minimalist on December 08, 2018, 08:20:13 PM
Part of the problem with the US is that jesus gets in the way of learning.  Jesus gets in the way of everything.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Unbeliever on December 08, 2018, 08:23:20 PM
Yeah, Jesus is like a debilitating drug that most of America (and much of the rest of the world) is addicted to.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on December 08, 2018, 09:35:04 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 08, 2018, 08:23:20 PM
Yeah, Jesus is like a debilitating drug that most of America (and much of the rest of the world) is addicted to.

Misquoting Marx?  Such a surprise you are, paper mâché Marx!

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people." - Karl Marx

Opium at that time, was a legal medication, usually laudanum, used to quiet babies.  Like saying ... Cough medicine is the drug of the deplorables!

It is not religion but revolution which is the opium of the people - Simone Weil.

Go to France, storm the Bastille!  But leave the US alone.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on December 08, 2018, 09:37:27 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on December 05, 2018, 05:18:34 AM
Basic education is never a negative.  The kind of education might be, though.  A creationist university is not an education (quite frankly it is dis-education).  Any state university is.

"Any state university is" ... aka a tool for political indoctrination.  Since when is political indoctrination an education?  People being taught what to think, not how to think?  Well that is how undergraduates are taught.  You have to have a PhD to know to think (says Platonists).

This conversation is political, not theological.  But in the US, dominated by prior English history, can't escape this origin.  The war over the Bible starts with the first paraphrases of the Vulgate into Anglo-Saxon, particularly the Psalter.  It continues into Middle English with the civil war over lay preachers (Lollards) and their Middle English bible by Wycliffe.  Then onward thru the Protestant Reformation, to the King James bible of 1611 and the Bay Psalm Book, the first book printed in what is now the US, in 1640.  Without the continued radicalizing of the New England Church, you wouldn't have had the cessation of witch burning (Catholic's in Germany were big on this) or the potential for religious toleration (but not for atheists of course).  That became Unitarian, which is the most liberal church of early US, which led to the Abolition movement.  it wasn't American atheists who pushed for civil war, but very religious Americans.  Your "Cult of Reason" was a temporary aberration, and only around Paris during the French Revolution.

What atheists seem to really demand, is freedom from history and freedom from a society that is part of the historical continuum.  Hence the demand for scifi utopias which only turn into scifi dystopias.

The Enlightenment was before the French Revolution, it wasn't a rejection of the past, but a reinvention of it.  Otherwise John Locke would have written in the original Klingon.  Anyway, it is only natural for me to be partial to the proper English enlightenment, not the naughty French version.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Cavebear on December 09, 2018, 09:43:56 AM
Quote from: Baruch on December 08, 2018, 09:37:27 PM
"Any state university is" ... aka a tool for political indoctrination.  Since when is political indoctrination an education?  People being taught what to think, not how to think?  Well that is how undergraduates are taught.  You have to have a PhD to know to think (says Platonists).

This conversation is political, not theological.  But in the US, dominated by prior English history, can't escape this origin.  The war over the Bible starts with the first paraphrases of the Vulgate into Anglo-Saxon, particularly the Psalter.  It continues into Middle English with the civil war over lay preachers (Lollards) and their Middle English bible by Wycliffe.  Then onward thru the Protestant Reformation, to the King James bible of 1611 and the Bay Psalm Book, the first book printed in what is now the US, in 1640.  Without the continued radicalizing of the New England Church, you wouldn't have had the cessation of witch burning (Catholic's in Germany were big on this) or the potential for religious toleration (but not for atheists of course).  That became Unitarian, which is the most liberal church of early US, which led to the Abolition movement.  it wasn't American atheists who pushed for civil war, but very religious Americans.  Your "Cult of Reason" was a temporary aberration, and only around Paris during the French Revolution.

What atheists seem to really demand, is freedom from history and freedom from a society that is part of the historical continuum.  Hence the demand for scifi utopias which only turn into scifi dystopias.

The Enlightenment was before the French Revolution, it wasn't a rejection of the past, but a reinvention of it.  Otherwise John Locke would have written in the original Klingon.  Anyway, it is only natural for me to be partial to the proper English enlightenment, not the naughty French version.

I mentioned State Universities supporting a secular education as opposed to private ones (some of which also do, but many don't).  But I assume you understand that education IS for a purpose to society as a whole.  The goal is an educated population, and hopefully one that is fact-based (as opposed to religion-based). 

A fact-based education enables one to make rational and considered judgements.  A fact-based education enables one to build a bridge which should not collapse, measure medicine effectiveness accurately,  design planes that will fly safely, and engineer sewage systems that work. 

Now consider the education at some sectarian universities.  One can get a degree in geology by "learning" that all animals died in "The Flood" and all layers of strata are due to speed they fell into the mud (simplest first by some inexplicable reasoning). 

When I attended a State University, I was forced to attend lecture halls where some basic facts were presented.  Geology 001 at State U is probably not too different at Religion College. Both basically teach what anyone should have learned in 8th grade.  But they do have to help the  high school crammers to actually catch up to the learners.

But that is where things change.  At State U, the logic of facts starts to become important, gradually leading to  "iffy" questions that must be answered in essay tests, etc.  Religion College doesn't test that way.  Religion College rewards biblical evidence over actual facts.

What?  You think it is all regurgitated info?  Hardly.  I'll give a couple of examples.

In an Econ class, I learned about a bell curve that  showed people reacted to events after the peak (vague memory says it was called "The Phillips Curve").  In a history class about the French Revolution essay final, I applied that to how citizens reacted to an increase in freedoms, revolting only AFTER things were getting better and when they should have calmed down.  My professor called me in and asked "what is this?" (well, it wasn't anything HE had taught).  So I explained it.  My essay was ungraded at that point.  I got an A afterwards.

Another was in Astronomy 001.  Lecture hall stuff, but I loved the subject and sat right up front.  The Professor talked about tidal pulls.  He asked for any volunteers who understood what he meant.  I stood right up.  I took the part of the opposite side of the Earth.  He said to afterwards that I was the first student who ever got that part right.  And, BTW, I was the only student he ever had who scored 100 on all 3 class tests (And I have no doubt that most of you here would have also).

But that's my point.  I have yet to meet anyone who graduated from Religious College who understood either of those ideas.  Because they weren't explained in the Bible.  I've met religious "graduates" who thought pi was 3.0 because its in the Bible (no idea where - something about pyramids?). 

Religious College does not reward knowledge or understanding; it rewards false but faith-based thinking.  State U may not have been the top place to learn, but it sure didn't reward faith-thinking.

I took a course in Fortran in 1968 and the final exam was to write a program to play "21".   We had a week.  I wrote it in the class and asked if I could try to get a chess game to work for 2 moves.  He said he couldn't and that would be a guaranteed A.  You remember punch cards?  One mistype and the card is wrong.  I filled a shoebox with cards.  The computer center guys hated to see me with the shoebox.  But I had permission.

Guess what?  I failed.  I couldn't keep the pieces from moving off the board in spite of surrounding the non-squares with negative values.  But the Professor examined my program and gave me an A anyway (which I had already earned).

Bet ya can't to that at Religious College. 

So, I'll go along with you about religious history, burning innocent women as witches and burning books and so on.  Far from me to say that didn't happen even when Religious College was the best deal around (except for all the other colleges). 

You asked "What atheists seem to really demand". We demand a fact-based life, a fact-based govt, and a fact-based society where the evolutionary-adapted color of your skin is not a determinant in success at life, where questioning politicians does not make you a communist or a nazi, and where saying "I don't believe" is not a hindrance to participating in national leadership as it is today.

Best hour I spent the last couple years...
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on December 09, 2018, 11:09:59 AM
Totally wrong.  You were totally brainwashed in your poli-sci classes.  Political indoctrination has always been the purpose.  By the Left aka Plato.  Traditional cultural inheritance (Homer and Hesiod) were gotten outside of school, in the home, in the theater, in the religious festivals.  And except for Socrates, teachers always made you pay.  No free education with the academics.

Like someone who came here about when I did, and left soon ... regulars here are an echo chamber of haters.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Unbeliever on December 09, 2018, 06:02:33 PM
Quote from: Baruch on December 08, 2018, 09:35:04 PM
Misquoting Marx?  Such a surprise you are, paper mâché Marx!

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people." - Karl Marx

Opium at that time, was a legal medication, usually laudanum, used to quiet babies.  Like saying ... Cough medicine is the drug of the deplorables!

It is not religion but revolution which is the opium of the people - Simone Weil.

Go to France, storm the Bastille!  But leave the US alone.
Well, this Jesus drug is more like LSD than opium.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on December 09, 2018, 08:51:48 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 09, 2018, 06:02:33 PM
Well, this Jesus drug is more like LSD than opium.

Only for ecstatic mystics ... who probably originated every religion in history.  But psychoactive drugs were sometimes involved.  You can get quite wound up just thru sleep deprivation.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 10, 2018, 08:54:50 AM
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 09, 2018, 06:02:33 PM
Well, this Jesus drug is more like LSD than opium.
Yeah, but it is more addicting than cigarettes.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on December 10, 2018, 01:12:36 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 10, 2018, 08:54:50 AM
Yeah, but it is more addicting than cigarettes.

Given some people posting here, it should be popular then.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Unbeliever on December 10, 2018, 01:14:08 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 10, 2018, 08:54:50 AM
Yeah, but it is more addicting than cigarettes.

Yeah, and that's saying a lot, since nicotine is the most addictive substance known to man.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on December 10, 2018, 07:26:44 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 10, 2018, 01:14:08 PM
Yeah, and that's saying a lot, since nicotine is the most addictive substance known to man.

Gold says ... you are wrong.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Unbeliever on December 10, 2018, 07:33:47 PM
Gold knows not whereof it speaks!
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on December 10, 2018, 07:39:21 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 10, 2018, 07:33:47 PM
Gold knows not whereof it speaks!

Gold is real money.  Money speaks ... with sign language $$
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Unbeliever on December 10, 2018, 07:40:09 PM
And people give away good money for nicotine, proving it's stronger!
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on December 10, 2018, 08:19:33 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 10, 2018, 07:40:09 PM
And people give away good money for nicotine, proving it's stronger!

The US dollar is only valuable because of the bigger fool theory.  China is discovering they are the bigger fool this time!
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Cavebear on December 21, 2018, 07:32:16 AM
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 10, 2018, 01:14:08 PM
Yeah, and that's saying a lot, since nicotine is the most addictive substance known to man.

Fentanyl...  Apparently, just a few grains is enough. 

I hope that if I ever get injured enough to be offerred the stuff, I'll kill the person who offers it.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on December 21, 2018, 01:01:29 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on December 21, 2018, 07:32:16 AM
Fentanyl...  Apparently, just a few grains is enough. 

I hope that if I ever get injured enough to be offerred the stuff, I'll kill the person who offers it.

See, now you have done it.  Because of evil free speech, terrorists now know to put that in every water supply.  It is all your fault!  Reeee.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Unbeliever on December 21, 2018, 02:04:43 PM
Yeah, Baruch, I'm sure terrorists are constantly perusing this forum looking for ideas they can use to produce terror! LOL
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Cavebear on December 21, 2018, 02:08:05 PM
Quote from: Baruch on December 21, 2018, 01:01:29 PM
See, now you have done it.  Because of evil free speech, terrorists now know to put that in every water supply.  It is all your fault!  Reeee.

Actually, I suspect you can't truly be addicted to something you don't know you've had.  Addiction requires wanting to get more of a specific thing.
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on December 21, 2018, 07:51:45 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 21, 2018, 02:04:43 PM
Yeah, Baruch, I'm sure terrorists are constantly perusing this forum looking for ideas they can use to produce terror! LOL

Well it isn't for good arguments to terrorize theists with either ;-)
Title: Re: Is America An Essentially "Uneducated" Country?
Post by: Baruch on December 21, 2018, 07:52:56 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on December 21, 2018, 02:08:05 PM
Actually, I suspect you can't truly be addicted to something you don't know you've had.  Addiction requires wanting to get more of a specific thing.

A random addiction would be like a scratch you can't reach.  Not a pleasant thought.  Addiction is brain chemical imbalance, even if you don't know the trigger (of which there are many, including sex, pain etc).