Atheistforums

Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Christianity => Topic started by: SGOS on August 25, 2018, 06:00:08 AM

Title: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: SGOS on August 25, 2018, 06:00:08 AM
300 over 70 years abusing a thousand children so far.  What's amazing is that no one has commented.  Not that this is shocking.  It was already known this was a world wide epidemic, so what's so special about Pennsylvania Doing what the Boston Globe and the Country of Australia already did?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/us/catholic-church-sex-abuse-pennsylvania.html
“Despite some institutional reform, individual leaders of the church have largely escaped public accountability,” the grand jury wrote. “Priests were raping little boys and girls, and the men of God who were responsible for them not only did nothing; they hid it all. For decades.”

I wonder if there is something special about the priesthood that causes this.  Do pedophiles gravitate toward the priesthood knowing there is unlimited opportunity?  It's an odd correlation Priests/Pedophiles.  Makes you wonder why.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: SGOS on August 25, 2018, 06:08:14 AM
In thinking about this further.  Pennsylvania is doing more than just fueling the scandal.  It's actually punishing the molesters, lifting statutes of limitations, and allowing civil suits that would ordinarily be too late to be allowed.  Scandal is always fun and an American pastime, but scandal isn't enough.  The church should pony up and pay the victims.  But the church is lobbying Pennsylvania to eliminate some legal tools of redress.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 25, 2018, 06:11:29 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
300 over 70 years abusing a thousand children so far.  What's amazing is that no one has commented.  Not that this is shocking.  It was already known this was a world wide epidemic, so what's so special about Pennsylvania Doing what the Boston Globe and the Country of Australia already did?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/us/catholic-church-sex-abuse-pennsylvania.html
“Despite some institutional reform, individual leaders of the church have largely escaped public accountability,” the grand jury wrote. “Priests were raping little boys and girls, and the men of God who were responsible for them not only did nothing; they hid it all. For decades.”

I wonder if there is something special about the priesthood that causes this.  Do pedophiles gravitate toward the priesthood knowing there is unlimited opportunity?  It's an odd correlation Priests/Pedophiles.  Makes you wonder why.
Really? Access to children. Not having to explain why they're not married. And these days, for who knows how long, the church top management is like-minded, so there's protection. The trifecta.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: SGOS on August 25, 2018, 06:25:44 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Really? Access to children. Not having to explain why they're not married. And these days, for who knows how long, the church top management is like-minded, so there's protection. The trifecta.
The thing that I wonder about is if potential priests are drawn by the prospect of protection while molesting minors, how did they know this?  And if they knew this, why didn't everyone else?
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 25, 2018, 06:46:52 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The thing that I wonder about is if potential priests are drawn by the prospect of protection while molesting minors, how did they know this?  And if they knew this, why didn't everyone else?
I believe they did know and chose to ignore it as part of the cost of going to Heaven. And I further believe that this is part of the reason for the decline of the Church as people chose to not be part of that any more. The decision may or may not have been conscious.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Baruch on August 25, 2018, 06:59:35 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The thing that I wonder about is if potential priests are drawn by the prospect of protection while molesting minors, how did they know this?  And if they knew this, why didn't everyone else?

Former victims become victimizers?
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: SGOS on August 25, 2018, 10:52:01 AM
In retrospect, others may have given signals that they did know.  Growing up in Chicago, probably one fourth of my friends were Catholic who frequently made jokes about priests chasing around after young boys.  I was too young to be offended, and the tone of the claims was casual and along the lines of gallows humor.  Yet they were oddly prevalent.  I remember wondering, "Is this just kids talking? Are those priests sickos or are my friends the sickos?"

Some of this assuredly got back to parents.  Some would likely admonish sons for using sacrilegious humor.  Some would probably deny it to themselves, hush it from their friends to avoid appearing disrespectful toward the Church, and of course as we now know, some parents and police officers were simply bought off by the Church not to press charges or say anything.  But whatever social dynamics were involved, the Church was able to keep it hidden, even while professional child advocates were negotiating payoffs for the victims.

Even the reporters at the Boston Globe didn't know what was going on when they first started investigating.  The media exposing it may have been a major break from well established journalistic tradition.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: SGOS on August 25, 2018, 10:56:41 AM
When the story first broke about Boston, I wasn't totally surprised.  I remember thinking, "Well that explains why some of my friends were telling such peculiar stories back then.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 25, 2018, 01:20:00 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-44209971
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Unbeliever on August 25, 2018, 01:30:15 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I wonder if there is something special about the priesthood that causes this.  Do pedophiles gravitate toward the priesthood knowing there is unlimited opportunity?  It's an odd correlation Priests/Pedophiles.  Makes you wonder why.

Quote from: Martin Buber
Since the primary motive of the evil is disguise, one of the places where evil people are most likely to be found is within the Church. What better way to conceal one's evil from oneself, as well as from others, than to be a deacon or some other highly visible form of Christian within our culture?...I do not mean to imply that the evil are anything other than a small minority among the religious or that the religious motives of most people are in any way spurious. I mean only that evil people gravitate toward piety for the disguise and concealment it can offer them.

Quote from: Kenneth V. Lanning
The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement, but few can argue with it.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Blackleaf on August 25, 2018, 04:07:53 PM
I don't think that paedophiles join the priesthood knowing they'd have opportunities to abuse their position of power. But there are probably some other variables that tend to lead to paedophiles gravitating toward those positions. First, they probably acknowledge their desires as sinful and think that becoming a spiritual leader would make up for it. Also, rapists rape not for sex, but to exert their power over others. Who has more power than a man who speaks for God?
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Unbeliever on August 25, 2018, 04:11:14 PM
A man with a nuclear arsenal?
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 25, 2018, 04:22:53 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Unbeliever on August 25, 2018, 04:40:26 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases

The claim that it was "the declining moral standards in prevailing culture" that led to the abuse is a crock of shit. This abuse has been going on, I expect, for centuries. I have no proof of that, so I could be wrong, but I bet I'm not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases#Purported_declining_standards_in_prevailing_culture

Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Shiranu on August 25, 2018, 04:59:08 PM
Probably secretly converted to Islam before molesting them.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Blackleaf on August 25, 2018, 10:53:10 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The claim that it was "the declining moral standards in prevailing culture" that led to the abuse is a crock of shit. This abuse has been going on, I expect, for centuries. I have no proof of that, so I could be wrong, but I bet I'm not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases#Purported_declining_standards_in_prevailing_culture

I concur. I have no doubt that priests have been abusing their power this way from the very beginning. It's just that we're finally starting to notice, and care.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: trdsf on August 26, 2018, 01:22:48 AM
What's appalling is that we just didn't know.  One of my teachers was the priest that repeatedly raped the founder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Blaine) of SNAP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivors_Network_of_those_Abused_by_Priests).  And You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login is absolutely right, this has been going on a lot longer than we've known about it.  In 1962, the Vatican issued Crimen sollicitationis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimen_sollicitationis) (itself based on instructions from 1922 under the same name) which specified excommunication for the victim if they reported being abused to secular authorities.  Everything was to be held close and quiet and covered up.  Even the 2001 motu proprio Sacramentorum sanctitatis tutela (http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/resource-files/churchdocs/SacramentorumAndNormaeEnglish.htm) prescribed clerical trials rather than handing offenders over to civil authorities.

It's very hard to think of the Roman Catholic Church, no matter how personable Pope Frank is, as anything other than a corrupt and irredeemable organization.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Baruch on August 26, 2018, 03:21:46 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
A man with a nuclear arsenal?

Uh, Obama from 2009 - 2017?  How many countries did he invade?
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Baruch on August 26, 2018, 03:24:13 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Probably secretly converted to Islam before molesting them.

Usually in modern times Muslim boy-sex was limited to certain Afghan cultures.  The number of eunuchs among the harem was limited due to lack of volunteers ;-)  Similarly, Muslim female-circumcision is from a limited number of African cultures.

Or were you just trying to troll pr126?
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 26, 2018, 06:13:45 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I concur. I have no doubt that priests have been abusing their power this way from the very beginning. It's just that we're finally starting to notice, and care.
A fellow grad student at Purdue was researching the relationship between the Church and the citizens of one of the Italian city-states (can't remember which one) and read me the letter he found from a mother to her local priest. The priest had told the mother that her son had a lovely voice and he should be trained at the Vatican for continued singing at the cathedral. She agreed and the boy went off. When he came back a year later he had been castrated as part of the "training". But he still had a lovely voice, so God must have been okay with it.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Mike Cl on August 26, 2018, 09:34:41 AM
It seems to me that the hierarchy of any religion grows up for the main purpose of power which entails control of the masses.  As the hierarchy gains that power, they use it.  The priesthood of the Roman Catholic church became powerful centuries ago; it seems reasonable that having a priests way with his flock took (and takes) many forms.  So, using alter boys to be altered makes sense.  And the lip service of the higher part of the hierarchy makes sense too--they partake of the altering of boys (and girls), but they also need to make noises that that is a bad thing for the PR it generates.  I would imagine this was a thing for the Roman Catholic priests from near the get-go.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Baruch on August 26, 2018, 03:02:24 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
A fellow grad student at Purdue was researching the relationship between the Church and the citizens of one of the Italian city-states (can't remember which one) and read me the letter he found from a mother to her local priest. The priest had told the mother that her son had a lovely voice and he should be trained at the Vatican for continued singing at the cathedral. She agreed and the boy went off. When he came back a year later he had been castrated as part of the "training". But he still had a lovely voice, so God must have been okay with it.

Guelphs (Pope) vs Ghibellines (Emperor).  Back in the day, it was common to have castrati in royal and ecclesiastical courts.  Early involuntary transgender surgery?  I suspect this was because soprano singers were only allowed to be males (women were not allowed to sing or act in polite society).  This was elitist entertainment.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Baruch on August 26, 2018, 03:03:17 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It seems to me that the hierarchy of any religion grows up for the main purpose of power which entails control of the masses.  As the hierarchy gains that power, they use it.  The priesthood of the Roman Catholic church became powerful centuries ago; it seems reasonable that having a priests way with his flock took (and takes) many forms.  So, using alter boys to be altered makes sense.  And the lip service of the higher part of the hierarchy makes sense too--they partake of the altering of boys (and girls), but they also need to make noises that that is a bad thing for the PR it generates.  I would imagine this was a thing for the Roman Catholic priests from near the get-go.

The masses should be controlled, even castrated (not literally).  They are an ignorant rabble and still are.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Unbeliever on August 26, 2018, 05:17:17 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
specified excommunication for the victim if they reported being abused to secular authorities.

I've sometimes wished I were a catholic, just so I could be excommunicated.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: trdsf on August 26, 2018, 05:30:36 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It seems to me that the hierarchy of any religion grows up for the main purpose of power which entails control of the masses.  As the hierarchy gains that power, they use it.  The priesthood of the Roman Catholic church became powerful centuries ago; it seems reasonable that having a priests way with his flock took (and takes) many forms.  So, using alter boys to be altered makes sense.  And the lip service of the higher part of the hierarchy makes sense too--they partake of the altering of boys (and girls), but they also need to make noises that that is a bad thing for the PR it generates.  I would imagine this was a thing for the Roman Catholic priests from near the get-go.
Basically.  The Vatican still hasn't really reconciled itself to the fact that it no longer is the dominant de facto (and often de jure) political/secular authority in Europe, much less the world.  They're used to being a law unto themselves regardless of the nations in which they operated, and that's going to be reflected in their internal machinations.  Of course the Vatican's response to the various sex abuse scandals was to cover up — it's a tenet of Catholicism that you're not allowed to question the Church in religious matters, so of course they had an expectation to not be questioned in any matter.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Unbeliever on August 26, 2018, 05:43:47 PM
If they could, the RCC would extend "freedom of religion" to allow them to abuse children, since it's part and parcel of their religion.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: trdsf on August 26, 2018, 06:26:03 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If they could, the RCC would extend "freedom of religion" to allow them to abuse children, since it's part and parcel of their religion.
By claiming the absolute right to levy judgment and punishment on lawbreakers to the exclusion of civil authorities, that's exactly what they are doing.  Basically, every single solitary ordained Roman Catholic cleric, from a lowly parish priest to the most exalted cardinal-bishop of the Curia, has a decent chance of effectively being given diplomatic immunity by the "Holy" See and being whisked away to a clerical trial and a sentence of a "life of contemplation" or some bullshit like it.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Unbeliever on August 26, 2018, 06:40:40 PM
Quote from: Bishop O’Connor, Pittsburgh
The tolerance of liberty can be maintained until complete federal and state control by Catholics has been accomplished.

That's kind of scary.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Baruch on August 26, 2018, 11:21:03 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've sometimes wished I were a catholic, just so I could be excommunicated.

This week end I was ex-communicated.  I visited my daughter, and her and my ex and I had breakfast together.  So you can also get that distinction by being divorced.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Baruch on August 26, 2018, 11:21:56 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Basically.  The Vatican still hasn't really reconciled itself to the fact that it no longer is the dominant de facto (and often de jure) political/secular authority in Europe, much less the world.  They're used to being a law unto themselves regardless of the nations in which they operated, and that's going to be reflected in their internal machinations.  Of course the Vatican's response to the various sex abuse scandals was to cover up — it's a tenet of Catholicism that you're not allowed to question the Church in religious matters, so of course they had an expectation to not be questioned in any matter.

Anyone who counted the Vatican "out" in the last 1700 years was wrong.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Baruch on August 26, 2018, 11:23:01 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That's kind of scary.

In 1970 the media censor board was made up of ... only Catholics.
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 02:16:44 AM
Religion seems to attract people with serious psychological problems.  The sexual abuse of children and young adults is historical and seemingly unending. 

I suspect the leaders of the religions view it as a natural outlet for the lower level religious people.  After all, sodomy isn't "Real Sex" is it...  Long as it isn't a woman, you are chaste... 
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 07:33:05 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Religion seems to attract people with serious psychological problems.  The sexual abuse of children and young adults is historical and seemingly unending. 

I suspect the leaders of the religions view it as a natural outlet for the lower level religious people.  After all, sodomy isn't "Real Sex" is it...  Long as it isn't a woman, you are chaste...

So you are redefining DSM V?
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Unbeliever on August 27, 2018, 01:30:08 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It's very hard to think of the Roman Catholic Church, no matter how personable Pope Frank is, as anything other than a corrupt and irredeemable organization.
H. G. Wells thought the Vatican should have been bombed way back in WW2, and said so in
Crux Ansata (http://nullgod.com/index.php?topic=1312.0).
Title: Re: Pennsylvania Priests
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 01:40:20 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
H. G. Wells thought the Vatican should have been bombed way back in WW2, and said so in
Crux Ansata (http://nullgod.com/index.php?topic=1312.0).

Take away the ill-gotten wealth of most religious leaders and I'll bet they scream about their poverty.  So much for them passing through the eye of a needle...