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Humanities Section => Philosophy & Rhetoric General Discussion => Topic started by: Shiranu on August 18, 2018, 01:43:15 AM

Title: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Shiranu on August 18, 2018, 01:43:15 AM

He has traits of both the far-left and the far-right, and he is one of the biggest figures in the Western mythos of "Wise Men".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLJBzhcSWTk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLJBzhcSWTk)
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Hydra009 on August 18, 2018, 01:54:22 AM
To American conservatives of the red-capped variety, Marxism is like George Soros - he's underneath every bed and in every closet.

Apparently, Marxism existed long before Marx and even today is still as strong as ever despite the collapse of the Soviet Union and the gradual transitioning of the few communist countries that remained to mixed economies.

In a couple years, these geniuses may even try to produce a list of 205 suspected cultural marxists working for the State Department.
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Atheon on August 18, 2018, 01:59:11 AM
There is, of course, no such thing as "cultural Marxism". It's just a term made up to make gullible idiots scared of people with dark skinned and who speak scary-sounding languages.
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: pr126 on August 18, 2018, 02:14:07 AM
Actually, cultural Marxism was cooked up by dead old white men.

  Frankfurt School  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School)
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Baruch on August 18, 2018, 02:18:36 AM
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To American conservatives of the red-capped variety, Marxism is like George Soros - he's underneath every bed and in every closet.

Apparently, Marxism existed long before Marx and even today is still as strong as ever despite the collapse of the Soviet Union and the gradual transitioning of the few communist countries that remained to mixed economies.

In a couple years, these geniuses may even try to produce a list of 205 suspected cultural marxists working for the State Department.

Marx copied Robespierre.  The Russian Revolution was a copy of the French Revolution.

Just nuke Paris already?
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Baruch on August 18, 2018, 02:19:46 AM
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There is, of course, no such thing as "cultural Marxism". It's just a term made up to make gullible idiots scared of people with dark skinned and who speak scary-sounding languages.

There is no such thing as Republicans ... just a made up term created by gullible Democrats.

Death to the Communists!  Call them what you will.  The millions they killed mostly in their home countries, call out for their blood!
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: pr126 on August 18, 2018, 02:27:15 AM
Apparently, they don't teach history anymore in schools. Down the memory hole.


Who controls the past, controls the future. - Who controls the present controls the past. - George Orwell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe9I0QhV08w
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Baruch on August 18, 2018, 02:27:47 AM
On the OP ... read the book by The Hemlock Cup by historian Bettany Hughes.  Over 500 pages of scholarship.  One of my favorite "feminist" historians.  Well only that because she happens to be a woman, not because the is a Leftist.  The real Athens, the real Socrates.  She did a nice video too ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPnUK176AR0

Sparta rightly feared Athenian liberalism (Sparta being arch-conservative).

The 5th century BCE revolution ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCrn-1jUOP8

Keramaicos ... a cemetery outside the Athenian walls, been there.  Ms Hughes is an atheist BTW.
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Cavebear on September 12, 2018, 01:28:32 AM
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There is, of course, no such thing as "cultural Marxism". It's just a term made up to make gullible idiots scared of people with dark skinned and who speak scary-sounding languages.

The term comes from German dissidents uncomfortable with existing capitalist, fascist or communist systems. Many of these theorists believed that traditional theory could not adequately explain the turbulent and unexpected development of capitalist societies in the 20th century. Critical of both capitalism and Soviet socialism, their writings pointed to the possibility of an alternative path to social development.  Note that they weren't fascist, either.

I think what they were trying to get at was "social democracy", where basic requirements such as utilities, communications, roads, schools, etc were out of the control of capitalists, but not also handed off to communistic 5-year plans and such.  Sort of betwixt and between capitalism and communism, but they hadn't developed the details of an ideology.
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Baruch on September 12, 2018, 06:45:29 AM
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The term comes from German dissidents uncomfortable with existing capitalist, fascist or communist systems. Many of these theorists believed that traditional theory could not adequately explain the turbulent and unexpected development of capitalist societies in the 20th century. Critical of both capitalism and Soviet socialism, their writings pointed to the possibility of an alternative path to social development.  Note that they weren't fascist, either.

I think what they were trying to get at was "social democracy", where basic requirements such as utilities, communications, roads, schools, etc were out of the control of capitalists, but not also handed off to communistic 5-year plans and such.  Sort of betwixt and between capitalism and communism, but they hadn't developed the details of an ideology.

Euro-Communism is better than Russian Communism?  That is why we are throwing the EU under the bus.  It isn't worth defending.
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Baruch on October 05, 2018, 07:13:56 PM
The ancients on lawlessness ...

“Oh where is the noble face of modesty, or the strength of virtue, now that blasphemy is in power and men have put justice behind them, and there is no law but lawlessness, and none act with fear of the gods?”

Euripides, Iphigenia in Aulis

This is what we are becoming.
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 03:01:01 AM
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The ancients on lawlessness ...

“Oh where is the noble face of modesty, or the strength of virtue, now that blasphemy is in power and men have put justice behind them, and there is no law but lawlessness, and none act with fear of the gods?”

Euripides, Iphigenia in Aulis

This is what we are becoming.

Quote from people who thought slavery was good, thought Gods created mayhem and tortured people with their power, and considered anyone who didn't speak their language were "bar-bar-ians" (as an insult) because they didn't make sense to THEM!
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 04:09:01 AM
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Quote from people who thought slavery was good, thought Gods created mayhem and tortured people with their power, and considered anyone who didn't speak their language were "bar-bar-ians" (as an insult) because they didn't make sense to THEM!

Yes, lets virtue signal ... you are Jesus ... who knew?

Do you have any other bigotries to share?
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on October 12, 2018, 08:55:24 PM
Funny this should come up now.  I've been re-reading Plato's Socratic writings trying to discern a common theme throughout them.
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Baruch on October 12, 2018, 09:55:29 PM
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Funny this should come up now.  I've been re-reading Plato's Socratic writings trying to discern a common theme throughout them.

My aren't you ambitious.  I have been re-reading The Republic and some others, these past couple years.  Don't forget Xenophon's version ... his Apology and his Symposium.  They have a contrast to the versions by Plato.
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on October 12, 2018, 11:18:21 PM
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My aren't you ambitious.  I have been re-reading The Republic and some others, these past couple years.  Don't forget Xenophon's version ... his Apology and his Symposium.  They have a contrast to the versions by Plato.

I am forgetting Xenophon's version.  I'm interested in the common theme of Plato's Socrates.

If I'm going to branch out, I might as well include Aristophanes' version.
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Baruch on October 13, 2018, 03:14:37 AM
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I am forgetting Xenophon's version.  I'm interested in the common theme of Plato's Socrates.

If I'm going to branch out, I might as well include Aristophanes' version.

You are the one true voice of reason here.  You must keep away most of the time, for sanity's sake.

There is a whole debate, on the early Plato vs the later Plato.  Plato's agenda was quite different from that of Socrates.

I would enjoy you posting on this, in the philosophy section, if you are so inclined.

The Euthyphro is congenial to atheists in a way that the Phaedo is not.

Just getting done with a revision/review on ancient Greek (language).

To what extent do you see, the common Greek culture of that time, as being important framing?  Aka diachronic.  Or do you take the modern synchronic view (and thus assume Plato's forms are real).
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on October 13, 2018, 01:51:13 PM
There's a lot of questions in there that, even though I've read through them before, I'm not ready to answer.  I will give this much.  Plato's Socrates was a metaphysical essentialist.  I'm an epistemological essentialist.  I do not agree that Plato's forms are real.
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Baruch on October 13, 2018, 09:01:14 PM
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There's a lot of questions in there that, even though I've read through them before, I'm not ready to answer.  I will give this much.  Plato's Socrates was a metaphysical essentialist.  I'm an epistemological essentialist.  I do not agree that Plato's forms are real.

I understand what you said.  As far as Socrates goes, it all depends on what Mystery Cult he may be belonged too, Orphic or Eleusis or nothing.  Plato learned his metaphysics from Archytus, who learned it from Pythagoras.  Socrates' elenchus however resembles Parmenides (and a named dialog of that name) ... but Parmenides himself was something of a hierophant in the style of Pythagoras.
Title: Re: Socrates, One of the Earliest "Cultural Marxists"?
Post by: Cavebear on October 14, 2018, 05:38:04 AM
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My aren't you ambitious.  I have been re-reading The Republic and some others, these past couple years.  Don't forget Xenophon's version ... his Apology and his Symposium.  They have a contrast to the versions by Plato.

Right.  And let's not forget...

"Socrates, who himself was apparently gifted with precognitive perception, attributed his abilities to the aid of a personal daemon, which then meant demigod and not (evil) demon. In the Theagetes, Plato makes Socrates say:

By favour of the Gods, I have, since my childhood, been attended by a semi-divine being whose voice from time to time dissuades me from some undertaking, but never directs me what I am to do. You know Charmides the son of Glaucon. One day he told me that he intended to compete at the Nemean games. I tried to turn Charmides from his design, telling him, "While you were speaking, I heard the divine voice. Go not to Nemea." He would not listen. Well, you know he has fallen."

Yeah, that sure seems rational...