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Humanities Section => Political/Government General Discussion => Topic started by: ferdmonger on August 15, 2018, 09:47:24 PM

Title: Manafort verdict
Post by: ferdmonger on August 15, 2018, 09:47:24 PM
What's gonna happen kids?

There's a chance there's a Trumpian on the jury, who feels he/she cannot convict because it could look bad for the president.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: PopeyesPappy on August 15, 2018, 09:51:00 PM
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There's a chance there's a Trumpian on the jury, who feels he/she cannot convict because it could look bad for the president.

More than a chance. A likelihood. Trump's approval rating is about 42% right now. On a jury of 12 that's 5 people.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on August 15, 2018, 10:01:43 PM
There is such a thing as jury nullification ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

I don't expect that in this case.

In point of fact, there are probably lots of crimes on the part of Trump and associates, outside of the campaign or since inauguration.  It would be nice if all candidates were cross examined by a grand jury, before every election.  That would prevent many politicians from being elected.  I would care for that more than what the public votes for.

In this particular case, Manafort's attorney declined any witnesses, including Manafort himself.  That is strange, unless you realize the point of the cross-examination is to get him or others to say ... this or that happened when Trump was present.  Such a mistake might result in Arkancide NYC style.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: ferdmonger on August 15, 2018, 10:50:26 PM
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More than a chance. A likelihood. Trump's approval rating is about 42% right now. On a jury of 12 that's 5 people.

We'll see.  This is spooky shit.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Unbeliever on August 15, 2018, 11:06:52 PM
Not much would surprise me. My pessimism leads me to think they'll all get away with whatever crimes they've committed. I hope I'm wrong, but we'll just have to wait until the wave function collapses.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on August 15, 2018, 11:07:32 PM
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We'll see.  This is spooky shit.

Were you alive back in the days of Nixon and Watergate?  This is nothing.  Also proof that America learned nothing from Watergate.

What do you have against Schrodinger's Cat? ;-)
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Unbeliever on August 16, 2018, 06:53:21 PM
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What's gonna happen kids?

There's a chance there's a Trumpian on the jury, who feels he/she cannot convict because it could look bad for the president.

Just saying.
Well, this guy Litman says there's no chance of an acquittal - but prediction is a tough game these days.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlH1unCP0JE
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on August 16, 2018, 07:13:20 PM
Place your bets, but don't expect to get your money back.  The Casino always wins in the long run.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: trdsf on August 17, 2018, 09:48:00 PM
I'm not going to even try to guess.  Reality is broken.  I won't be surprised either way it goes, just because nothing works the way it used to/is supposed to anymore.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on August 18, 2018, 02:07:55 AM
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I'm not going to even try to guess.  Reality is broken.  I won't be surprised either way it goes, just because nothing works the way it used to/is supposed to anymore.

In the real world, LBJ never became President, because JFK didn't die in Dallas.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Unbeliever on August 18, 2018, 01:55:23 PM
It only takes one person to get a hung jury, so it won't surprise me if that happens. A mis-trial would mean Manafort could be tried again, but I really doubt that would happen.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: ferdmonger on August 19, 2018, 05:32:32 PM
A hung jury is what I'm thinking.

A holdout that simply refuses to indict.

I've been wrong before so we'll see... perhaps tomorrow.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Unbeliever on August 19, 2018, 05:41:45 PM
Yeah, it just depends on how "sequestered" the jurors have been - or just plain Trumptardian, it only takes one of those wanting to become a hero for his/her idol.

Hey, I just coined a word!
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: ferdmonger on August 19, 2018, 06:23:02 PM
I think Trump-a-dump-a-ding-dong has a better ring to it, but whatever.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Mermaid on August 19, 2018, 07:21:13 PM
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Trump's approval rating is about 42% right now.
That is fucking horrifying.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: ferdmonger on August 19, 2018, 07:33:07 PM
It truly is.  I wish I could understand it.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: SGOS on August 19, 2018, 07:39:16 PM
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That is fucking horrifying.

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It truly is.  I wish I could understand it.
He had many admirers for his brashness before the election, and those people aren't going to leave him for his brashness now.  He is exactly what they voted for, and they're happy as clams.  He's actually what I would consider a popular president at this time, and I understand he was also a big hit with his reality show.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: ferdmonger on August 19, 2018, 08:37:45 PM
I think our president knows where Mexico is.  I'll give him that much.

Iran on the other hand...

Or Germany. or...

 
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Unbeliever on August 20, 2018, 04:53:09 PM

Now this is how I like to see a press conference!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh7a5OHHVqA
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on August 21, 2018, 09:22:19 PM
Too bad when the CIA takes out those editors!
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Cavebear on August 22, 2018, 04:59:46 AM
GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!

And Cohen too.  The fewmets are hitting the windmill for Trump.  How will he respond?  Complete breakdown or fighting the quicksand til the end.  Oh how I have been waiting for this...

The faster Trump's supports are pulled out from under him, the better it will be for the country.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on August 22, 2018, 06:34:58 AM
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GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!

And Cohen too.  The fewmets are hitting the windmill for Trump.  How will he respond?  Complete breakdown or fighting the quicksand til the end.  Oh how I have been waiting for this...

The faster Trump's supports are pulled out from under him, the better it will be for the country.

You might have to wait longer.  Banks .. guilty, guilty, guilty .. fines, no jail.  And pardon for Cohen etc.  At best, first President Pence, then Pence pardons Trump ala Ford.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: ferdmonger on August 22, 2018, 08:17:37 PM
Eight felonies.

That's going to leave a mark.

Now the poor fuck has to stand trial again in a few weeks.

Donald has to be wondering what his future is about now.

Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Unbeliever on August 22, 2018, 08:21:00 PM
Nah, he can always just move to Russia and live in the lap of luxury.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: ferdmonger on August 22, 2018, 09:03:14 PM
Don't know. 

Is he an oligarch in good standing, or does he owe more than he's worth, much like Manafort.

Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Unbeliever on August 22, 2018, 09:05:33 PM
Well, given that I think he isn't worth less than whale crap on the bottom of the ocean, he probably does owe more then he's worth. But Putin might wish to repay him for all the great work he's been doing for Russia.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: trdsf on August 22, 2018, 09:28:11 PM
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Well, given that I think he isn't worth less than whale crap on the bottom of the ocean, he probably does owe more then he's worth. But Putin might wish to repay him for all the great work he's been doing for Russia.
If he thinks Putin's going to reward him with anything more than a swift kick in the ass, he's even dumber than I think he is.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: ferdmonger on August 22, 2018, 09:44:44 PM
He is of course dumber than you thought.  It's fuck near impossible for him not to be dumber than you thought.

The man is fucking dumb. 

He is however brilliant at igniting divisions. 

This is what we've been reduced to with pretend leadership.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Cavebear on August 23, 2018, 12:02:30 AM
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Now this is how I like to see a press conference!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh7a5OHHVqA

THAT was amazing!
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on August 23, 2018, 05:50:13 AM
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Eight felonies.

That's going to leave a mark.

Now the poor fuck has to stand trial again in a few weeks.

Donald has to be wondering what his future is about now.

Trump is a Mafia don.  He laughs at your notion of legality.  Don't sleep with the fishes!
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on August 23, 2018, 05:50:57 AM
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GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!

And Cohen too.  The fewmets are hitting the windmill for Trump.  How will he respond?  Complete breakdown or fighting the quicksand til the end.  Oh how I have been waiting for this...

The faster Trump's supports are pulled out from under him, the better it will be for the country.

Nuclear war ... as the CIA has always planned.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: ferdmonger on August 29, 2018, 07:18:58 PM
I assume the pardon will come after the midterms.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on August 29, 2018, 07:20:26 PM
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I assume the pardon will come after the midterms.

Maybe.  Nutjobs say that Jan 1, military tribunals for 40,000 indicted criminal elements ... D-party going bye bye.  Time to finish "Reconstruction".
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Cavebear on September 01, 2018, 08:45:26 PM
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I assume the pardon will come after the midterms.

After the midterms when the Dems take the House. all bets on Trump actions are off the table.  He'll go crazy.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on September 02, 2018, 12:52:47 AM
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After the midterms when the Dems take the House. all bets on Trump actions are off the table.  He'll go crazy.

How could you tell the difference?
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Unbeliever on September 02, 2018, 05:23:03 PM
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After the midterms when the Dems take the House.

I really hope you're right about that, but I suspect the GOP will do whatever it takes to hold on to power in the House - anything at all, illegal, immoral unethical, anything at all as long as they hold on to the power. Because power is money, and that's all they care about - it's what they worship..
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on September 02, 2018, 07:30:25 PM
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I really hope your right about that, but I suspect the GOP will do whatever it takes to hold on to power in the House - anything at all, illegal, immoral unethical, anything at all as long as they hold on to the power. Because power is money, and that's all they care about - it's what they worship..

If we indict a large number of people, aren't we indicting the human race too?  Isn't that misanthropy?  If so, I can get behind that ;-)
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 03:51:26 AM
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I really hope your right about that, but I suspect the GOP will do whatever it takes to hold on to power in the House - anything at all, illegal, immoral unethical, anything at all as long as they hold on to the power. Because power is money, and that's all they care about - it's what they worship..

I'll bet on the Democrats to take the House by a margin of 230-205 total and 5-to-9 odds on controlling the Senate. 
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on September 08, 2018, 08:53:37 AM
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I'll bet on the Democrats to take the House by a margin of 230-205 total and 5-to-9 odds on controlling the Senate.

CIA says ... all votes to Democrats ... then they get power
CIA says ... all votes to Republicans ... then they keep power

Are you betting against the CIA?
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Mike Cl on September 08, 2018, 09:01:32 AM
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I really hope your right about that, but I suspect the GOP will do whatever it takes to hold on to power in the House - anything at all, illegal, immoral unethical, anything at all as long as they hold on to the power. Because power is money, and that's all they care about - it's what they worship..
Too, too, too fucking true!!!
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 10:38:15 AM
When I was young (late teens), I was a Republican.  We had progressive Republicans in MD, and I liked them.  But then came "Tricky Dick" Nixon and Agnew and I was pretty much pushed out of the Republican Party.  I saw a difference in the way the 2 parties thought.  I thought tactically like Republicans (like playing chess) and still do.  I'm a rogue Democrat.  So I understand the way they think. 

Now I think more about others than I do for my own gain, so I vote Democratic.  But I've never forgotten how Republicans think (and it hasn't changed:

1.  Look out for yourself.
2.  Think short term (next election)
3.  Think long term (judges)
4.  When in doubt, see #1.

Trump is the logical outcome of decades of #1-4.  What my (sort of) fellow Democrats do NOT understand is that Trump will do ANYTHING to hold power, gain power, and crush the enemy.  Democrats (the poor saps) keep trying to "meet halfway" on issues.  That never works.  That never works because the Republicans either win or lose; there is no "halfway, compromise, or "getting along".  They have the mindset of Atilla The Hun.

Supporting the Democratic party agenda is a "desire to help others at your own expense and thinking of the future".  Supporting the Republican party agenda is "I want MINE and I want it now; damn the future and the horse it will ride in on"!

The basic motto of the Democratic party is 'The Desiderata'.  Moat of you know it, but if not, it can be searched for easily.

The basic motto of the Republican party is best expressed by Mordred in "Camelot".  Which is not so easily found, so I will quote the lyrics:

The Seven Deadly Virtues:

"The seven deadly virtues, those ghastly little traps
Oh no, my liege, they were not meant for me
Those seven deadly virtues were made for other chaps
Who love a life of failure and ennui
Take courage-now there's a sport
An invitation to the state of rigor mort
And purity-a noble yen
And very restful every now and then
I find humility means to be hurt
It's not the earth the meek inherit, it's the dirt
Honesty is fatal, it should be taboo
Diligence-a fate I would hate
If charity means giving, I give it to you
And fidelity is only for your mate
You'll never find a virtue unstatusing my quo or making my Beelzebubble burst
Let others take the high road, I will take the low
I cannot wait to rush in where angels fear to go
With all those seven deadly virtues, free and happy little me has not... been... cursed!"

Every Republican will agree (privately) and act aghast (publicly).  Well, that's the tactic.

Trump will sacrifice any and all supporters at the least threat to himself.  Everyone who ever worked for him, now matter how closely and for how many years, is "who?  Some minor critter in my world".

Wait til the investigations close in on his family.  Wanna bet it will be "Ivanka who?".  Oh, just some kid of that previous broad!"

There is nothing Trump won't do to keep his imagined greatness persona intact.  EOL
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on September 08, 2018, 11:43:32 AM
Similar development, but a few years younger.

The early Nixon was positive for me (opening to China), but turned sour.  I blamed bad D-party policy on Southern Ds, and LBJ.  With the Southern Ds moving into the R-party, that solved itself, and LBJ died.  I wasn't nearly negative enough on Ds when i was young.  It took decades for me to realize they were irredeemable. 

With Nixon gone, Reagan seemed attractive, I had lived in California before 1980, and it hadn't gone to hell in a hand basket yet.  I now realize what a coup the Nixon Watergate situation was.  His crimes were small compared to LBJ and Clinton/Obama.  Carter seemed a good guy out of his depth.

I support Attila and Genghis now ... real men, not soy boys ;-)
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Unbeliever on September 08, 2018, 02:03:41 PM
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It's not the earth the meek inherit, it's the dirt
That's a great line!
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on September 08, 2018, 02:45:47 PM
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That's a great line!

Humans are Earth Angels.  Go get your hands dirty!
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 02:53:50 PM
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That's a great line!

Definitely, one of my favorite songs.  And that line IS one of the best parts.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on September 08, 2018, 03:04:41 PM
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Definitely, one of my favorite songs.  And that line IS one of the best parts.

Again, demonstrating a deaf ear to Judeo-Greek poetry.  Not that there is anything wrong with that.

What does "meek" even mean?  The basic idea is that the opposite of the meek, the violent, kill each other off.  The really meek don't even let themselves be drafted into wars arranged by the Elites.  So basically hermits and monks who are separated from society (Desert Fathers) and who are pacifist (not like St Cyprian's thugs).
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Cavebear on September 23, 2018, 02:09:23 PM
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Again, demonstrating a deaf ear to Judeo-Greek poetry.  Not that there is anything wrong with that.

What does "meek" even mean?  The basic idea is that the opposite of the meek, the violent, kill each other off.  The really meek don't even let themselves be drafted into wars arranged by the Elites.  So basically hermits and monks who are separated from society (Desert Fathers) and who are pacifist (not like St Cyprian's thugs).

You insult the Meeks!  They just do whatever they are told to do.  But I have to say, there are no Meeks here.  Not even the theists.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on September 23, 2018, 02:17:13 PM
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You insult the Meeks!  They just do whatever they are told to do.  But I have to say, there are no Meeks here.  Not even the theists.

This is why any nice people who wander in, run screaming away soon.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Cavebear on September 23, 2018, 02:18:37 PM
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This is why any nice people who wander in, run screaming away soon.

You were here first...
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on September 23, 2018, 02:19:47 PM
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You were here first...

Basically ... they are afraid of all the projectile poo.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Cavebear on September 23, 2018, 02:23:34 PM
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Basically ... they are afraid of all the projectile poo.

From a flinger...
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on September 23, 2018, 02:24:25 PM
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From a flinger...

I don't deny evolution, nor do I mistake my species for a different genus (Ursus).
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Cavebear on September 23, 2018, 02:30:15 PM
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I don't deny evolution, nor do I mistake my species for a different genus (Ursus).

"I don't deny evolution"  Can I quote you on that in the future, or do you just mean "other than humans"?
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on September 23, 2018, 02:40:09 PM
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"I don't deny evolution"  Can I quote you on that in the future, or do you just mean "other than humans"?

Humans more than evolve, we develop.  Particularly if you are a real estate developer.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Cavebear on September 23, 2018, 02:42:05 PM
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Humans more than evolve, we develop.  Particularly if you are a real estate developer.

And adapt.  Never forget that we adapt children often.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on September 23, 2018, 02:42:37 PM
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And adapt.  Never forget that we adapt children often.

Good joke.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Cavebear on September 23, 2018, 02:45:34 PM
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Good joke.
Gratias tibi.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on September 23, 2018, 02:47:12 PM
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Gratias tibi.

No, salsum.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Cavebear on September 23, 2018, 02:52:46 PM
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No, salsum.

I get "no salt" as "joke", but the comma is confusing.  What did I miss?  It's been decades.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Baruch on September 23, 2018, 02:54:43 PM
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I get "no salt" as "joke", but the comma is confusing.  What did I miss?  It's been decades.

Salsum is Latin for "good joke".  Maybe slang.

The comma is self explanatory.  Along with "no" it negates your prior statement, and separates out the following counter statement.
Title: Re: Manafort verdict
Post by: Cavebear on September 23, 2018, 03:00:20 PM
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Salsum is Latin for "good joke".  Maybe slang.

The comma is self explanatory.  Along with "no" it negates your prior statement, and separates out the following counter statement.

So "salsum" itself is joke?  I wondered about that.  It sounded like "no, prob".