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How does not this truth make you crazy?
To not to be crazy on death, i think we should ignore it. I mean we should behave like there is no death. The history of religions and philosophy is full of consolotion of the situation of men on death.

A man that really conceives one day he will die should give himself to science, art, or to change the world, to politics.

Thanks for listening to me.

If you spend every worrying about dying you have never lived.

I can live with death, as long as the process of dying is very short. As Mark Twain said, “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”

It isn't death I concern myself with, but living.

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 13, 2018, 04:22:29 PM
If you spend every worrying about dying you have never lived.

No, actually vice versa...
I want my life to live it full. But in the end, i dont wanna mention of the end. We will join the absence. Dont you wanna live till eternity, i know one day our memory will be loaded to chips and in our silicon protectors we will live 4eva.

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 13, 2018, 04:27:08 PM
I can live with death, as long as the process of dying is very short. As Mark Twain said, “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”

It isn't death I concern myself with, but living.

I applause you for internalizing twains opinion.. I also agree with him on death. My concern is also to live it full. But i ignore the reality that we are wasting so many times on the 'net: )

All we can really do is waste time, anyway. Here's another quote, this time from Clarence Darrow:

“We are born and we die; and between these two most important events in our lives more or less time elapses which we have to waste somehow or other. In the end it does not seem to matter much whether we have done so in making money, or practicing law, or reading or playing, or in any other way, as long as we felt we were deriving a maximum of happiness out of our doings.”

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 13, 2018, 04:57:45 PM
All we can really do is waste time, anyway. Here's another quote, this time from Clarence Darrow:

“We are born and we die; and between these two most important events in our lives more or less time elapses which we have to waste somehow or other. In the end it does not seem to matter much whether we have done so in making money, or practicing law, or reading or playing, or in any other way, as long as we felt we were deriving a maximum of happiness out of our doings.”

So you think the absolute and ultimate goal in life is to arrive the happiness. In the process whay we do is not so important. If you wish drink till die if it makes u happy, or wish to be a health crazy.

By the way i am 29 and have been drinking alcohol since my 18, my alcoholic career covers 11 years. I stayed in psyciatry services 8 times etc. My purpose of saying this is that i wanna see my 70s if god doesnt cause any accident. Because of this in these times death is in my mind.

Well, I don't seek to be happy, I seek to avoid unhappiness. I could never be truly happy as long as I know about all the horrible pain and suffering that goes on in the world, both human and non-human.

Everything dies at one point, thats the fact of living, all things that live also die eventually.

While the question of ones morality is scary and the thought of just no longer existing is too, if all you do every day when you wake up is think about this fact about yourself then your not really living at all.

The here and now is what matters, and just living it.

If the thought of yourself dying and not leaving much behind or anyone even remembering you, just remember, in several million years time, the sun will either explode or implode, and our solar system will die. Black hole will eventually consume everything in the universe, and the universe itself will be left an empty void of nothing when even dark matter dissipates.

Considering that, it makes you appreciate the here and now even more.

Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 13, 2018, 04:51:14 PM
I applause you for internalizing twains opinion.. I also agree with him on death. My concern is also to live it full. But i ignore the reality that we are wasting so many times on the 'net: )

Whatever you do is a waste----to somebody.  If what you do is deemed a waste by you, then it is a waste.  If you deem it not to be a waste, then it isn't.  It is really that simple.  You are what you think; and you think what you are.  The universe really does revolve around you and what you think it is and where you think you fit in--or even if you think you fit in.  Live life as you want to for it is up to you to figure out what that is and how to do it. 

Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 13, 2018, 04:51:14 PM
I applause you for internalizing twains opinion.. I also agree with him on death. My concern is also to live it full. But i ignore the reality that we are wasting so many times on the 'net: )

I have never wasted time on the Internet ... I am alive here.  And to be alive is to not have wasted time.  Being dead is wasting time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VkrUG3OrPc

Trdsf would at least have to grunt his agreement ;-)

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 13, 2018, 05:18:34 PM
Well, I don't seek to be happy, I seek to avoid unhappiness. I could never be truly happy as long as I know about all the horrible pain and suffering that goes on in the world, both human and non-human.

And that is exactly why I can never be happy.  Embrace the despair!

Not only is happiness impossible, but avoiding unhappiness is also impossible.  This is good enough reason to hate G-d.

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 13, 2018, 04:57:45 PM
All we can really do is waste time, anyway. Here's another quote, this time from Clarence Darrow:

“We are born and we die; and between these two most important events in our lives more or less time elapses which we have to waste somehow or other. In the end it does not seem to matter much whether we have done so in making money, or practicing law, or reading or playing, or in any other way, as long as we felt we were deriving a maximum of happiness out of our doings.”

I see your Clarence Darrow and raise you a William Jennings Bryan ... "My place in history will depend on what I can do for the people and not on what the people can do for me. "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M

Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 13, 2018, 05:06:58 PM
So you think the absolute and ultimate goal in life is to arrive the happiness. In the process whay we do is not so important. If you wish drink till die if it makes u happy, or wish to be a health crazy.

By the way i am 29 and have been drinking alcohol since my 18, my alcoholic career covers 11 years. I stayed in psyciatry services 8 times etc. My purpose of saying this is that i wanna see my 70s if god doesnt cause any accident. Because of this in these times death is in my mind.

I again believe that the uphill we find in our path through life, makes the journey worthwhile.
I had stage 4 cancer 7 years ago, and am now in remission for 6 years. The chemo was a hard thing to go through, but I learned it is the medicine that made me well, whilst it made me feel sick.
I embraced it.
I learned that there are others who were not as strong as I, and they did not make it.
I learned there were cancer patients who appreciated my positive thinking, and my advice. They learned that cancer can be fought with a positive mind, or at least go down with a fight.
I learned that I was not alone, and the horror was not to receive the treatment, but to know I will recover, only to anyhow die one day.

But the best thing I learned was, I have my family and children who were having much more stress than I.

To me, death is nothing.
Due to me being a theist, a Bible believing one, death is not the only thing in my life that is for sure, but the state of immortality that will follow.

Simply an exchange of a mortal body, to one that never dies, covered in radiating light, sexless, with ultimate knowledge.
Living among every being who were born on this Earth and died, knowing them all, travelling through the whole universe, and beyond. learning the secrets of creation. Knowing the ultimate Creator who told me about all these incredible things.

Wish full thinking, some will say.
Really?

Quote from: Mousetrap on August 14, 2018, 10:21:46 AMDue to me being a theist, a Bible believing one, death is not the only thing in my life that is for sure, but the state of immortality that will follow.

Simply an exchange of a mortal body, to one that never dies, covered in radiating light, sexless, with ultimate knowledge.
Living among every being who were born on this Earth and died, knowing them all, travelling through the whole universe, and beyond. learning the secrets of creation. Knowing the ultimate Creator who told me about all these incredible things.

Wish full thinking, some will say.
Really?

Pretty much the epitome of wishful thinking, yes.

Death is an inevitable stage of life. No matter how much you worry about it, how much you fear it, it will happen regardless. Why fear that which is inevitable? And it's one thing to fear the pain of dying, but the state of being dead is no more worth being afraid of than the act of being born.

It's okay to let that fear come, like any other thought, but you have to let it go as well because death is not present for us now. There is no past, nor is there a future, the only time that will ever exist for us is the present. Do you know how you will die? Doubtful. So it is ridiculous to fear something you don't even know how or when it will happen. There is no point in spending your present existence worrying about an existence that will never come to pass.

What is there in death to fear? If you fell asleep one night and never woke up... does the concept of being eternally asleep scare you? Perhaps you are different, but there is nothing terrifying about that to me, because there will be no "me" left to care one way or another.

Fear of pain, disability and death keep me motivated to take care of my health and appreciate my life. I don't avoid thinking about death but I don't dwell on it either. I admit I don't have all my end of life planning finalized yet.

Yup, gonna have to die some day.  I'd prefer it not be soon, but there's only a finite amount of control I have over that.  It doesn't bother me in the least; at least I have a little more control over dying than I did being born.  I'm kind of at the point that I am aware that I'm not as strong or as fast or as coördinated as I used to be and if the overall decline in my physical condition were to continue even at its current modest pace, living forever would suck eventually.

I would like to be a centenarian, but outside of making healthy life choices, there's sod-all I can do about that.  Although I do have a mental image of myself as this sweet little old silver-haired gentleman with a cane full of gin... :D

Quote from: Hydra009 on August 14, 2018, 11:07:58 AM
Pretty much the epitome of wishful thinking, yes.

That's all faith ever was, wishful thinking. But if it gets someone through the rough patches of life I don't have a problem with it.

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 14, 2018, 01:18:47 PM
That's all faith ever was, wishful thinking. But if it gets someone through the rough patches of life I don't have a problem with it.

You know, when I was still a believer, I couldn't think of anything more boring than the whole alabaster streets eternally singing praises sort of heaven.  Even then I wanted my afterlife to be cruising the universe unfettered by the laws of physics and seeing what there is to see.

The wings would've been cool, though.  :D

(imagines self with wings, can only compare it to a beardless Brian Blessed... yikes, so much more Budgieman than Hawkman)

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 14, 2018, 01:18:47 PM
That's all faith ever was, wishful thinking. But if it gets someone through the rough patches of life I don't have a problem with it.

I would completely agree with that if it was a relatively benign sort of faith that has no political ambitions, didn't try to control other people, and was 100% voluntary.  As far as crutches go, this one has a hell of a price tag.

Yeah, that's the problem with faith memes - they want to propagate themselves throughout the whole population. If people could just keep their faith to themselves there would be no problem with it, but they just can't seem to do that. I think they feel if they can spread the meme then that will vindicate their own faith. And if they can make their faith meme the law of the land then they won't have to work so hard to propagate it.

Quote from: Mousetrap on August 14, 2018, 10:21:46 AM

To me, death is nothing.
Due to me being a theist, a Bible believing one, death is not the only thing in my life that is for sure, but the state of immortality that will follow.

Just exactly how I feel!!  Bugs Bunny and I are going to have such a grand time together!!!

If I had a choice I'd have an afterlife where I could roam and have adventures like Baron Munchausen.

But, alas, I don't think I'm going to have that choice.

If die and wake up to 72 comely virgins I will know I've gone to hell.

With my luck, it'd be 72 Virginians...

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 14, 2018, 02:11:42 PM
If die and wake up to 72 comely virgins I will know I've gone to hell.

I know, personally I'd sooner wake up with 72 highly experienced guys. Thats something religion has never gotten right (besides everything else)

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 14, 2018, 02:11:42 PM
If die and wake up to 72 comely virgins I will know I've gone to hell.

Ya know, I'd rather wake up to 72 comely prostitutes.  They'd know what I'd like and how to make it happen!! :))

There is only one reality that says you live one life. Everything else is speculation. But we know you live at least this. There are some who claim that some god(s) created this entire universe...but apparently never really understood the immensity of it. To the universe you are smaller than an atom is to us.

There is no real benefit to the universe to your birth, life or death. It is completely indifferent. The only things that cares about your existence is those involved in your life and...you. Engage in your brief time or not. In short time by universe standards, all will simply disappear into the mist that is the vastness of the universe. What fun!

I want from god my orgasm lasts a half an hour while i am high on heroin or my dopamin receptors pumps.
I cant think of any better wish.

Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 14, 2018, 06:36:43 PM
I want from god my orgasm lasts a half an hour while i am high on heroin or my dopamin receptors pumps.
I cant think of any better wish.

Not bad.  But I hope you can imagine better, some day.

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 14, 2018, 02:08:00 PM
If I had a choice I'd have an afterlife where I could roam and have adventures like Baron Munchausen.

But, alas, I don't think I'm going to have that choice.

Achtung!  Only if you learn German.  Lunacy is your style ;-))

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5zVbzWgByk

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 14, 2018, 01:30:07 PM
Yeah, that's the problem with faith memes - they want to propagate themselves throughout the whole population. If people could just keep their faith to themselves there would be no problem with it, but they just can't seem to do that. I think they feel if they can spread the meme then that will vindicate their own faith. And if they can make their faith meme the law of the land then they won't have to work so hard to propagate it.

Marxist memes too.  Except Marx doesn't promise you anything more than Utopia ... while not informing you what the word means.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 14, 2018, 11:51:19 AM
Death is an inevitable stage of life. No matter how much you worry about it, how much you fear it, it will happen regardless. Why fear that which is inevitable? And it's one thing to fear the pain of dying, but the state of being dead is no more worth being afraid of than the act of being born.

It's okay to let that fear come, like any other thought, but you have to let it go as well because death is not present for us now. There is no past, nor is there a future, the only time that will ever exist for us is the present. Do you know how you will die? Doubtful. So it is ridiculous to fear something you don't even know how or when it will happen. There is no point in spending your present existence worrying about an existence that will never come to pass.

What is there in death to fear? If you fell asleep one night and never woke up... does the concept of being eternally asleep scare you? Perhaps you are different, but there is nothing terrifying about that to me, because there will be no "me" left to care one way or another.

Have you ever kissed a dead dear one goodbye?  If you have, then you might know something of death.

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 14, 2018, 05:08:19 PM
Ya know, I'd rather wake up to 72 comely prostitutes.  They'd know what I'd like and how to make it happen!! :))

Your true character reveals itself (along with others).  Not that there is anything wrong with that.  I have erotic fantasies too, but I realize that realizing them, would be insane.

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 14, 2018, 02:15:18 PM
With my luck, it'd be 72 Virginians...

Well, I'm going to have nightmares tonight.

Quote from: Baruch on August 14, 2018, 07:01:16 PM
Not bad.  But I hope you can imagine better, some day.

Some wise ancient sages thought that the way to catch the true happiness extends through hedonism ie to satisfying our bodily needs... For ex. To eat a delicious meal, or to have a good sex etc. These stimulate the brain to secrete hormones that make us satisfied.

What do you think the better would be? Am i so materialist?

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 14, 2018, 02:15:18 PM
With my luck, it'd be 72 Virginians...

The TV version of Trampas and the Virginian ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ujbN_6IJA

Quote from: Shiranu on August 14, 2018, 07:14:18 PM
Well, I'm going to have nightmares tonight.

Some like their fillies to be ... tough lovers.

Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 14, 2018, 07:15:03 PM
Some wise ancient sages thought that the way to catch the true happiness extends through hedonism ie to satisfying our bodily needs... For ex. To eat a delicious meal, or to have a good sex etc. These stimulate the brain to secrete hormones that make us satisfied.

What do you think the better would be? Am i so materialist?

Hedonist isn't bad, unless you don't like it.  It isn't either/or ... but both.  Unless you are a Desert Father (4th century Egyptian Christian hermit).  They prefer to wrestle with demons.  Succubi or Incubi, I am not sure ;-)

Quote from: Baruch on August 14, 2018, 07:12:31 PM
Your true character reveals itself (along with others).  Not that there is anything wrong with that.  I have erotic fantasies too, but I realize that realizing them, would be insane.

Which was one of my points---believing in an afterlife or 72 virgins to go with that afterlife, is insane. 

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 14, 2018, 07:35:41 PM
Which was one of my points---believing in an afterlife or 72 virgins to go with that afterlife, is insane.

So is life itself.  There is no sanity in it.  Though people keep looking for it, like the Philosopher's Stone.

Heaven/hell is right here, right now.

Quote from: Baruch on August 14, 2018, 07:37:46 PM
So is life itself.  There is no sanity in it.  Though people keep looking for it, like the Philosopher's Stone.

Heaven/hell is right here, right now.

Absolutely.  Either you give your life meaning or it simply won't have any. 

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 14, 2018, 07:50:18 PM
Absolutely.  Either you give your life meaning or it simply won't have any.

Meaning and insanity aren't mutually exclusive.  The ancient Sophists are just as much dust now as the majority they lampooned.

When it comes to death, I fear the journey more than the destination. Once I actually am dead, I will be in a state of unconsciousness and thus unable to care. A dreamless sleep, basically. The process of getting there... might be less than pleasant. Hopefully I die like my grandfather: peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 14, 2018, 01:18:47 PM
That's all faith ever was, wishful thinking. But if it gets someone through the rough patches of life I don't have a problem with it.

As I said, My point of view.
Wishful thinking?
Perhaps.
Blind faith?
On the contrary, ample evidence.
Believing there is no afterlife where one's consciousness will hunt your acts in your Earthly life?
Blind faith also?
Perhaps.
AS I say, the Human Mind, what an incredible entity if it has nothing to do with evolution.
if it does, what a waste!

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on August 15, 2018, 12:30:43 AM
...Hopefully I die like my grandfather: peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming, like the passengers in his car...

Hilarious!!
:evil: :grin: :smiley:
This is the best one ever!!!

I'm sorry, but how does evolution tie into wasting a brain?

All the brain is is an extension of the universe that is capable of perceiving itself. The only waste of a brain is letting it lose it's wonder for the universe; be it through a wonder for science and understanding or a wonder for that which is beautiful and feels good (or preferably, both).

It is rather a waste of a brain to ponder the afterlife, about what will happen when the brain shuts off. Instead of enjoying the present, of being aware of the present and the fact that everything is connected, fixation on the afterlife reinforces the false notion that "I", as a unique entity, exists and distracts your brain.

"You" are just a mass of sensations, nothing more. Or rather, nothing less, because there is nothing more miraculous than that. Your sense of sight, smell, hearing, seeing, touch, taste, thought... these are not something seperate from you but rather they ARE you. There is nothing more "real" than your sensations at any given moment of the present, and we should do everything in our power to not be distracted from that, and we certainly shouldn't instead live in the future.

Live your life as a good person, regardless of if their is an afterlife or not, because it feels good. If God is good and just, then you have nothing to fear. If he is not... then no matter what, you are enslaved to his whims. If he does not judge you on the quality of your character than heaven is an arbitrary crap shoot... You may be the most righteous Christian in the world, but if he is neither good, merciful or just you are just as likely to be judged a sinner as anyone else.


Unlike most atheists you will find here, I'm not opposed to theological thought or doctrine. I'm only opposed to doctrine that is judgemental or hateful, which unfortunately is prevalent in organized religion (even my preferred theology, Buddhism, has violent terrorists amongst it's ranks who are still devout Buddhists).


It's best to examine the universe as best you can and decide for yourself what is the "right way"; the only universal truth is that we are all in this together and we will get much further supporting one another than tearing each other down.

I like the way you decide about what's around you Shiranu.
You are very analytical in your thinking.

And you have all right in saying that evolution surely should tie in with the brain.

But this is not what I mean by conscientiousness, I specifically mentioned "The Mind".
You perhaps know the story about the professor who said that God does not exist, because we can not prove God with the use of our senses.
And a student who asked the professor if one can detect the professors' mind?
The conclusion made by the student was that the Professor was mindless!

And it is true that the above argument does not prove the existence of God, nor the absence of the Mind.
However, I do find the mind of the human not simply chemical and electrical impulses working like a massive computer with 100 billion cells with 100 000 synapses each, making it the best ever mechanical electrical storage mechanism known to man.
It is 9 to 10 000 times faster than a computer chip, and much more refined. Transistors in microchips interacts on 3 connections, whilst the neuron does so with 100 000 connections interacting with others just as grand.

Now comes the question.
How much of our lives are preprogrammed to journey through the world?
The programming contains only instructions to what our bodies need to live.
The rest are learned.

But these experiences are not equal in different humans, but differ to create different characters.
why?
Because of individual perceptions on the meaning of language.
The language I refer to is not the oral one we grew up with, but our understanding of the things around us, say a watch.
Now, if I refer to a watch, I see it in my mind. Is this what is in my brain?
No, it is not physical, but a mental picture.
If I look at an advert, I will see a picture of a watch, but the one in my mind does not have all the finer details as if it is a picture, therefore I recognize the object, but do not keep the picture as the version of my memory, because the one in my mind is a general picture that can include any type of watch.
I then see the watch is $99.00.
The picture I see of the money, is one of mathematics, and not paper with change.

The question is, how does my brain interpret these physical things, even though it is a print of ink?
I will say... Language...

It is language that defines us as Human.
we can communicate with our minds and relay it in words and gestures.
We can receive this choices of words from each other and interpret it in our minds.

And where does this thing, language come from?

From the first humans?
Can Evolution really have shaped our Brains, to create a thing called Language that is intelligent, guided, and superior to the Brain itself?

If Yes, then why did the Great apes not develop a language?
Not just the primitive gesturing undistinguished from other animals' achievements, but Language?

Because they do not have a Mind.

Therefore, the Mind is an entity separate from the Brain.
and therefore, my claim.
If the Mind has nothing to do with evolution, it is a wonderful creation.
If it is only a product of unguided and blind processes, what a waste!

I also thought of Evolution versus creation as the reasons for humans to exist.

There might be more choices than just the 2 I will mention, but lets look at it from this perspective.

If we are nothing more than the product of long durational unguided, blind, and mechanical processes, then we are only things with no right to have feelings and can not call our-self by a name as an character or individual.
WE are, so to say, only food to the strongest, or we are the ones that may feed on the weaker.
If so, there is no rights, and we must follow our basic instincts, deny art and culture, forget about writing and singing, copulate, leave the female to attend to the offspring, kill if need be, steal, eat, have sex, even rape if need.
This is what one does if one think there is nothing more to the Human existence.

However, when one believes in being a creation of a Creator, the factor of accountability is a given.
simple understanding between Evolution and Creation is that in the mind set of creation, one have to accept that the fellow human is also part of the Creators' work, and by damaging such a thing, will be an insult to the Creator just as willfully damaging your neighbor's car will be to him.

Therefore, to embrace the thought of Creation, one is undermining Evolutionary thought, and creating a moral knowing there will be accountability for our actions.

However, to embrace Evolution, well... why not just take what you want as does an animal?
There is anyway so many people on this earth, the sooner we thin yourself out, the better.
rape, steal, be gay, swing, whore, make whores, kill, lie, cheat!!!
Why not?
If we die, we die!

And dont tell me that Atheists have this high moral standards and somehow I need to place Atheism in a bad light.

Atheism has no morals, and people embrace atheism because of their nature.
Because of what they like to do, their vices!

Any atheist that say they adhere to some moral code, are attempting lie to them-self.

Or, accept that you are wasting your time, and go out and be the strongest.

As I've gotten older, I have become less and less concerned with death.  It no longer represents the tragedy I thought it once was.

^ this

I'm not that great anyway.
The world won't miss much.

Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 14, 2018, 07:15:03 PM
Some wise ancient sages thought that the way to catch the true happiness extends through hedonism ie to satisfying our bodily needs... For ex. To eat a delicious meal, or to have a good sex etc. These stimulate the brain to secrete hormones that make us satisfied.

What do you think the better would be? Am i so materialist?

Hedonism as a philosophy is very different from the public conception of hedonism as eating cookies all day.

A good jumping-off point is the concept of Eudaimonia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudaimonia), human flourishing.  For philosophers like Epicurus, we're talking about long-term well-being - a modest, sustainable, virtuous life free of fear and bodily pain.  He specifically argued against extravagant eating since its unsustainability will lead to future misery.

Quote from: Mousetrap on August 15, 2018, 07:18:58 AMWE are, so to say, only food to the strongest, or we are the ones that may feed on the weaker.

If that were actually true, we wouldn't have to listen to your ramblings.

QuoteIf so, there is no rights, and we must follow our basic instincts, deny art and culture, forget about writing and singing, copulate, leave the female to attend to the offspring, kill if need be, steal, eat, have sex, even rape if need.

If we are indeed animals, then animals have it within them to create art, culture, writing, singing, and civilizations in which stealing, murder, and rape are outlawed.  So your assertion is self-defeating.

QuoteHowever, when one believes in being a creation of a Creator, the factor of accountability is a given.

Accountability, you say?  So surely, the most pious among us are the most on the straight and narrow - engaging in sins like murder or adultery at a much lower rate than the general populace.  Because otherwise, this argument quickly breaks down.

Quotesimple understanding between Evolution and Creation is that in the mind set of creation, one have to accept that the fellow human is also part of the Creators' work, and by damaging such a thing, will be an insult to the Creator just as willfully damaging your neighbor's car will be to him.

Wow, I never knew Christians had such respect for God's creation.  So you guys are 100% behind ending the current wars and avid about maintaining strict pollution regulations and halting global warming, right?

QuoteHowever, to embrace Evolution, well... why not just take what you want as does an animal?

One absolutely could.  And get shot or put in jail.  Or, and this is a broader perspective, people may not want to live in a society where stealing is the norm.  Just throwing ideas out.

QuoteAnd dont tell me that Atheists have this high moral standards and somehow I need to place Atheism in a bad light.

Methinks thou doth protest too much.

Come to think of it, I can't think of a single psychological reason why you'd need to denigrate atheists as animalistic savages to make yourself feel good about your "civilized" religion of goatherders talking about sacrificing turtledoves or massacring the Amalekites or happily dashing the little ones on rocks.

QuoteAtheism has no morals, and people embrace atheism because of their nature.

Yet you seem awfully intent on winning me over, despite asserting that my "belief" in atheism is in my nature.

QuoteAny atheist that say they adhere to some moral code, are attempting lie to them-self.

Sounds like yet another thing you don't believe in due to a psychological need to not believe it.  And yet you think this assertion is convincing to those without that problem.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on August 15, 2018, 09:04:34 AM
^ this

I'm not that great anyway.
The world won't miss much.

Space Ghost will miss you, but not your million kids ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbkPOEecPPM

Quote from: Hydra009 on August 15, 2018, 12:41:34 PM
Hedonism as a philosophy is very different from the public conception of hedonism as eating cookies all day.

A good jumping-off point is the concept of Eudaimonia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudaimonia), human flourishing.  For philosophers like Epicurus, we're talking about long-term well-being - a modest, sustainable, virtuous life free of fear and bodily pain.  He specifically argued against extravagant eating since its unsustainability will lead to future misery.

Epicurus died from constipation ;-)

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 14, 2018, 05:08:19 PM
Ya know, I'd rather wake up to 72 comely prostitutes.  They'd know what I'd like and how to make it happen!! :))

I'd rather wake up with 72 physicists, cosmologists and chess players - but not Bobby Fischer, he's such a cry baby.

Quote from: Baruch on August 15, 2018, 01:16:54 PM
Epicurus died from constipation ;-)

Unfortunately, biology is not beholden to philosophy.  Otherwise, philosophers would be immortal.

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 15, 2018, 01:18:17 PM
I'd rather wake up with 72 physicists, cosmologists and chess players - but not Bobby Fischer, he's such a cry baby.

Yeah, I need some scientists, some musicians, some writers to hang out with... and one or two willing studmuffins.  :D

QuoteYou perhaps know the story about the professor who said that God does not exist, because we can not prove God with the use of our senses.
And a student who asked the professor if one can detect the professors' mind?
The conclusion made by the student was that the Professor was mindless!

I do, but I feel it completely misses the point of what the mind really is; it is viewing the mind as "the soul" (a consistent entity) rather than a living, breathing and fluid collection of simultaneous sensations.

Of course it is impossible to detect "the mind" in this parable, but only because it uses an inaccurate definition of what the mind is. If we use the concept of "the soul", the consistent entity, then it is indeed impossible to detect it. However if we view the concept of "the mind", the soul, as a collection of sensations then we can both scientifically confirm that "the mind" exists (brain scans, heart rate, breathing pattern, etc. to track and graph how sensations are being experienced) but we can also test it from a philosophical view (if you cause them distress, will they be sad? If you make them happy, will they laugh? Will the smell of their parent's cooking bring them happiness? Will the picture of an ex-lover cause a variety of reactions?) and determine that it does, in fact, exist.

QuoteHow much of our lives are preprogrammed to journey through the world?

The entirety of them. To be born is to be given the task of existing in the world until you don't.

QuoteCan Evolution really have shaped our Brains, to create a thing called Language that is intelligent, guided, and superior to the Brain itself?

I would say yes that evolution can design brains because the universe itself, in all it's complexity, is simply designed but not by the divine but instead by mathematical and physical laws. All that we experience is designed by what can be experienced.

As for "why", because it simply did. If they universe decided, "why not", if the laws that govern it's operation didn't work, then we wouldn't be here to ask such a question.

QuoteIf Yes, then why did the Great apes not develop a language?

This goes back to my universe point... because they didn't.

Why didn't you tell that girl you loved her? Why didn't that car brake before they hit him? Why didn't you hug your family more often? Because you or it didn't. There may be more complicated reasons than that, analytical reasons like, "Well, this genome didn't trigger, so this one didn't, which caused..." but at the end of the day all that really matters is that it didn't.

QuoteBecause they do not have a Mind.

If you are going to make a statement on such a complex concept it has to have more complex justification than just stating it is true and leaving it at that.

How do you know that is the reason? How do you know your definition of mind is the most "true" concept? How do you know that it was not a random sequence of events that happened in one random apes brain and then was spread through his offspring and was much more likely to die out rather than be passed on through our ancestors?

Your claim requires a new variable to be added into an equation that we already know works. A, B, C, D., this happens, then that, then that. By taking the mind out of that equation and adding in a new concept (the soul), you then are trying to make an alphabet progression of A, B, C, Y, D. It no longer works within the system, and your system has to bear the burden of proving it's legitimacy rather than just stating that it is.

Quote from: Hydra009 on August 15, 2018, 01:12:00 PM
If we are indeed animals, then animals have it within them to create art, culture, writing, singing, and civilizations in which stealing, murder, and rape are outlawed.  So your assertion is self-defeating.

Well, biologically speaking, we are animals... and as it happens, not only do we see reflections of most of our behaviorsâ€"good, ill and neutralâ€"reflected in the so-called "lower" animals, but also instances of things we associate with consciousness and self-awareness (dolphins having names for each other, corvids solving problems that require building tools, several species passing the mirror test (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test)).

Which rather clearly implies that our sentience evolved naturally rather than was designed in specially.

Quote from: Mousetrap on August 15, 2018, 06:54:58 AM
You perhaps know the story about the professor

xians love to quote "stories" as if they are actually true. Facebook is full of similar "stories"...yeah..sure...all true.

Quote from: aitm on August 17, 2018, 08:10:01 PM
xians love to quote "stories" as if they are actually true. Facebook is full of similar "stories"...yeah..sure...all true.

Also, any professor dumb enough to be incapable of providing an answer to that could only be employed by a "college" like Bob Jones or (air quotes) Liberty (end air quotes).

Quote from: trdsf on August 18, 2018, 02:40:45 AM
Also, any professor dumb enough to be incapable of providing an answer to that could only be employed by a "college" like Bob Jones or (air quotes) Liberty (end air quotes).

Yes. It always has that 'god's not dead' vibe.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on August 18, 2018, 07:15:13 AM
Yes. It always has that 'god's not dead' vibe.

G-d isn't dead, but humanity seems to always be on the edge of extinction.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on August 18, 2018, 07:15:13 AM
Yes. It always has that 'god's not dead' vibe.

I wonder if it bothers God that the only people who worship him are delusional. 

Quote from: Baruch on August 18, 2018, 07:42:24 AM
G-d isn't dead, but humanity seems to always be on the edge of extinction.

I agree, life's a prerequirement before death can be moved onto.
And even if there were a god, seeing as he would never die, i would similarly be equally hesitant on classifying him as alive.

Quote from: SGOS on August 18, 2018, 07:48:18 AM
I wonder if it bothers God that the only people who worship him are delusional.

If you saw my clips on Last Temptation of Christ ... God's son is delusional ;-)

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on August 18, 2018, 08:27:40 AM
I agree, life's a prerequirement before death can be moved onto.
And even if there were a god, seeing as he would never die, i would similarly be equally hesitant on classifying him as alive.

Hindu/Buddhist gods aren't immortal, they are like very long lived super-aliens.  It is only Western/ME theology that has made monotheism the monstrosity it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOHKcDrfc9U

Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 13, 2018, 04:13:18 PM
How does not this truth make you crazy?

Easy.  I have a plan.

I'm going to worry about it after it happens.

I intend to live forever.

At least until reality smacks me across the proverbial face.

Much like Woody Allen"

“I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment.”

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 23, 2018, 02:00:01 PM
Much like Woody Allen"

“I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment.”

No, I literally intend to live forever.  Until a truck hits me.  Or a meteorite.  Bet on the truck.

I want to die laughing. What a way to go!

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 27, 2018, 03:01:00 PM
I want to die laughing. What a way to go!

Did you ever see 'Who Framed Roger Rabbit'?  If not, just a hint; don't be a weasel.

I did see it, but it was years ago, so I barely remember it. All that weed I've smoked has fogged my memory.

Also, be careful watching old episodes of The Goodies (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-18542377)...

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 27, 2018, 03:35:14 PM
I did see it, but it was years ago, so I barely remember it. All that weed I've smoked has fogged my memory.

The movie was a bit weedy too.  But the henchmen were cartoon character weasels and they could lierally die, by laughing. 

Well, check it out again sometime.

If I get a chance, I will. I do recall that it was a pretty funny movie, and I enjoyed it. I check it out on youtube.

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 27, 2018, 03:43:12 PM
If I get a chance, I will. I de recall that it was a pretty funny movie, and I enjoyed it. I check it out on youtube.

Handcuffs.  Dip...

Quote from: Unbeliever on August 27, 2018, 03:43:12 PM
If I get a chance, I will. I de recall that it was a pretty funny movie, and I enjoyed it. I check it out on youtube.

Don't be a pig head!  This scene wasn't deleted in the theatrical version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz_TEJ0BFEI

Quote from: SGOS on August 18, 2018, 07:48:18 AM
I wonder if it bothers God that the only people who worship him are delusional.

If one existed, it would be downright maddening.  Even the simplest statement gets interpreted every which way, translated and retranslated, and used to prop up whatever crazy ideas are brewing in the faithful's heads.  It would certainly put me off people, that's for sure.  Maybe deists have it right, just not for the reasons they think.

Quote from: Hydra009 on August 27, 2018, 11:27:11 PM
If one existed, it would be downright maddening.  Even the simplest statement gets interpreted every which way, translated and retranslated, and used to prop up whatever crazy ideas are brewing in the faithful's heads.  It would certainly put me off people, that's for sure.  Maybe deists have it right, just not for the reasons they think.

Deism might be the least offensive religion, but it still fails the fundamental question behind all the rest:  "Is it real?"

Quote from: Hydra009 on August 27, 2018, 11:27:11 PM
If one existed, it would be downright maddening.  Even the simplest statement gets interpreted every which way, translated and retranslated, and used to prop up whatever crazy ideas are brewing in the faithful's heads.  It would certainly put me off people, that's for sure.  Maybe deists have it right, just not for the reasons they think.

First Cause---has to be a First Cause; there just HAS to be!!  Why?  Cause.  There just has to be!!!  So, let's make the First Cause magic--easier to believe in; don't have to think and wonder any more, for there is a magical First Cause.  I know, I'll call it G-D!!  Yeah!    G-D did it!  That's it; all the boxes are checked.  First Cause; G-D!!!!

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 28, 2018, 08:50:16 AM
First Cause---has to be a First Cause; there just HAS to be!!  Why?  Cause.  There just has to be!!!  So, let's make the First Cause magic--easier to believe in; don't have to think and wonder any more, for there is a magical First Cause.  I know, I'll call it G-D!!  Yeah!    G-D did it!  That's it; all the boxes are checked.  First Cause; G-D!!!!

Religion has been supplying answers and explanations to the unknown since the first god was invented, and it's been proven wrong enough times that you would think religion would come to realize that its lack of methodology fails.  But it can't stop doing it.  This is what psychologists identify as obsessive-compulsive disorder.  It's hard to cure, especially when it's a collective disorder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious

Quote
Jung considered the collective unconscious to underpin and surround the unconscious mind, distinguishing it from the personal unconscious of Freudian psychoanalysis. He argued that the collective unconscious had profound influence on the lives of individuals, who lived out its symbols and clothed them in meaning through their experiences. The psychotherapeutic practice of analytical psychology revolves around examining the patient's relationship to the collective unconscious.

Psychiatrist and Jungian analyst Lionel Corbett argues that the contemporary terms "autonomous psyche" or "objective psyche" are more commonly used today in the practice of depth psychology rather than the traditional term of the "collective unconscious."[1]

Critics of the collective unconscious concept have called it unscientific and fatalistic, or otherwise very difficult to test scientifically (due to the mythical aspect of the collective unconscious).[2] Proponents suggest that it is borne out by findings of psychology, neuroscience, and anthropology.

Whether or not the existence of the collective unconscious is real, it is not the issue, however.  I think the collective unconscious probably does exist to the extent that it accounts for the mass hysteria we call religion.  Perhaps Jung claimed that it was more than that.  But strip away all the Jungian and Freudian psycho-babble, and what it amounts to the common knowledge of old wives tales, the blind leading the blind, and simple peer pressure.  And most importantly, the collective unconscious is no more credible or rational than the individual unconscious, which is where many of our disorders reside.

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 28, 2018, 08:50:16 AM
First Cause---has to be a First Cause; there just HAS to be!!  Why?  Cause.  There just has to be!!!  So, let's make the First Cause magic--easier to believe in; don't have to think and wonder any more, for there is a magical First Cause.  I know, I'll call it G-D!!  Yeah!    G-D did it!  That's it; all the boxes are checked.  First Cause; G-D!!!!

If cause/effect is the phlogiston of philosophy, given that correlation does not imply causation, and given the statistical nature of quantum reality anyway, there basically is just a vast set of coincidences that we believe are somehow related to each other.

Mass hysteria doesn't just define religion, it defines culture and civilization.  If we got mentally well, our language, culture and artifacts would lose meaning.

Quote from: SGOS on August 28, 2018, 07:50:34 AM
Deism might be the least offensive religion, but it still fails the fundamental question behind all the rest:  "Is it real?"

Reality is in the eye of the beholder.

Quote from: Baruch on August 28, 2018, 04:00:38 PM
Reality is in the eye of the beholder.

The question remains: "Is it real?"  Even if you are referring to your alternate reality, the question remains.  The reason you want to confuse the issue is because you can't answer the question.

Quote from: SGOS on August 28, 2018, 04:51:24 PM
The question remains: "Is it real?"  Even if you are referring to your alternate reality, the question remains.  The reason you want to confuse the issue is because you can't answer the question.

Nihilist?  They can't even formulate a question, let alone answer one.

I can give you an answer, but as a skeptic, you only accept your own nostrums.

Fact - each person lives in their own reality, that they participated in generating.  Forget Plato.

Quote from: Baruch on August 28, 2018, 08:53:33 PM
I can give you an answer,

But you don't and won't.

Quote from: Baruch on August 28, 2018, 08:53:33 PM
Fact - each person lives in their own reality,

That's actually an alternate "fact."  You may claim to live in a different reality, and I'm tempted to agree, but that would be patronizing.

Busses and trucks and weapons of mass destruction must be transcendent beings, because no matter what reality you "live" in, they'll getcha.

I might like to have an extended life, but not an everlasting life. That would be torture, no matter what kind of existence it is. Also, I don't trust whatever God allegedly made this world to have done any better on the second try. That said, the idea of reincarnation seems okay to me. Having no memory of a previous life would take away the drawbacks of an eternal existence.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on August 28, 2018, 11:58:52 PM
Busses and trucks and weapons of mass destruction must be transcendent beings, because no matter what reality you "live" in, they'll getcha.

My experience is the only truth, all other human experience is delusion ;-)  Every human is solipsist.

Quote from: Blackleaf on August 29, 2018, 12:42:37 AM
I might like to have an extended life, but not an everlasting life. That would be torture, no matter what kind of existence it is. Also, I don't trust whatever God allegedly made this world to have done any better on the second try. That said, the idea of reincarnation seems okay to me. Having no memory of a previous life would take away the drawbacks of an eternal existence.

Pythagoras and others claimed to remember previous lives.  Knowing that one had sucked at all of them, would really suck!

Quote from: Blackleaf on August 29, 2018, 12:42:37 AM
the idea of reincarnation seems okay to me. Having no memory of a previous life would take away the drawbacks of an eternal existence.

Yes, it would be like refurbishing virgins after you use them.

Quote from: SGOS on August 29, 2018, 06:26:45 AM
Yes, it would be like refurbishing virgins after you use them.

No, hippies and SJWs want them in this life ... sex without STD.

Quote from: Baruch on August 29, 2018, 06:58:22 AM
No, hippies and SJWs want the in this life ... sex without STD.

???
"want the in this life."
?

Quote from: Blackleaf on August 29, 2018, 12:42:37 AM
I might like to have an extended life, but not an everlasting life. That would be torture, no matter what kind of existence it is. Also, I don't trust whatever God allegedly made this world to have done any better on the second try. That said, the idea of reincarnation seems okay to me. Having no memory of a previous life would take away the drawbacks of an eternal existence.

If there were some transcendent part of consciousness that can exist independently between lives, reincarnation makes sense at the very least on the basis of wanting to recycle as much as possible and not clutter up the spaces between lives.  :)

I think the primary problem with the idea of reincarnation without the possibility of remembering past existences is that it's completely indistinguishable from no reincarnation whatsoever, but only serial independent lives with no transcendent part of consciousness involved.  Occam's razor pushes me inevitably toward that latter conclusion.

I actually have done past life regressions, back when I was a practicing Wiccan.  What lent credence to the "lives" I "remembered" was that none of them were anyone of any importance â€" I hadn't been Alexander the Great or Cleopatra or Charlemagne or anyone recorded in any history, or even something more exotic like a sentient from some other world, some other galaxy.  Just simple, mundane lives of their appropriate periods.  I don't doubt that I knew, even without consciously telling myself, I would reject such a vainglorious "past" as being ridiculous, so when I created past lives for myself, I unconsciously but deliberately created ones I was more likely to believe.

Of course, coming up with such things is part of my 'job' as a writer, and today I use a similar technique, under more conscious control, to create and flesh out the characters that I write about.

So that's all it was, storytelling to myself.  That said, there are times I wish I could believe in an afterlife, or even an interlife.  Personal immortality is tempting, after all.  But I wouldn't want serial incarnation without both being able to remember past lives, and being able to verify the memories independently.

Quote from: trdsf on August 29, 2018, 11:00:50 AM
I think the primary problem with the idea of reincarnation without the possibility of remembering past existences is that it's completely indistinguishable from no reincarnation whatsoever

Even skeptics toy with such ideas from time to time.  I too have considered the possibility that I had a past life.  I can't remember one of course, not even a mysterious memory fragment that ever came to mind.  But it's fun wondering.  But one thing I can say about reincarnation with an high degree of confidence is that, if I had a previous life, I know absolutely nothing of it, and judging by the stupid things I've done in this life, there is apparently zero carryover of hard learned wisdom from any earlier life.

I have had vivid dreams of other lives, some with historical content.  But I don't vouch for their objectivity.

Quote from: SGOS on August 28, 2018, 04:51:24 PM
The question remains: "Is it real?"  Even if you are referring to your alternate reality, the question remains.  The reason you want to confuse the issue is because you can't answer the question.

What question ... what is reality?  I know, but can't tell you ... reality is conveyed in a lifetime as a human being, it isn't conveyed in monkey words.  You can't tell me either, because you are just as much a dumb (silent) monkey as I am.

Quote from: Baruch on August 29, 2018, 01:09:07 PM
What question ... what is reality?  I know, but can't tell you ... reality is conveyed in a lifetime as a human being, it isn't conveyed in monkey words.  You can't tell me either, because you are just as much a dumb (silent) monkey as I am.

It's not about reality.  We know what reality is.  It's about gods.  Is it real is the fundamental question about religions.  Does the described god behind all the ritual, celebration, and prayer exist?  The issue was posed here several posts ago:

Quote
Hydra:  If one [a god] existed, it would be downright maddening.  Even the simplest statement gets interpreted every which way, translated and retranslated, and used to prop up whatever crazy ideas are brewing in the faithful's heads.  It would certainly put me off people, that's for sure.  Maybe deists have it right, just not for the reasons they think.

Quote
SGOS: Deism might be the least offensive religion, but it still fails the fundamental question behind all the rest:  "Is it real?"

Quote from: SGOS on August 29, 2018, 01:46:30 PM
It's not about reality.  We know what reality is.  It's about gods.  Is it real is the fundamental question about religions.  Does the described god behind all the ritual, celebration, and prayer exist?  The issue was posed here several posts ago:

Haha ... each person is a demi-god.  Like Augustus Caesar was.  Just without the usual Pretorian Guards.  Or would you care to deny this?  Explain that to the Pretorians assigned to your execution.

Quote from: SGOS on August 29, 2018, 12:08:36 PM
Even skeptics toy with such ideas from time to time.  I too have considered the possibility that I had a past life.  I can't remember one of course, not even a mysterious memory fragment that ever came to mind.  But it's fun wondering.  But one thing I can say about reincarnation with an high degree of confidence is that, if I had a previous life, I know absolutely nothing of it, and judging by the stupid things I've done in this life, there is apparently zero carryover of hard learned wisdom from any earlier life.

The idea does have its appeal for me.  I would really like to believe in it.  But it has the same amount of evidence to support it as does the existence of god--not a whisper of any.  So, into the wishful thinking bin it goes.  Damn.

Quote from: Mike Cl on August 30, 2018, 01:29:35 PM
The idea does have its appeal for me.  I would really like to believe in it.  But it has the same amount of evidence to support it as does the existence of god--not a whisper of any.  So, into the wishful thinking bin it goes.  Damn.

I had no past life.  I will have no future life.  I will have no afterlife.  This does not bother me in the least.  When I die, I will be as utterly non-existent as the ant I stepped on today unknowingly or the fly an swatted the day before with malice.

Quote from: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 04:51:05 AM
I had no past life.  I will have no future life.  I will have no afterlife.  This does not bother me in the least.  When I die, I will be as utterly non-existent as the ant I stepped on today unknowingly or the fly an swatted the day before with malice.

Only the present exists.  Your past is memory, your future is hope.  Neither of those are real.

I didn't figure you to be a presentist, Baruch.

Quote from: Sal1981 on September 08, 2018, 10:53:27 AM
I didn't figure you to be a presentist, Baruch.

Don't worry, whatever it was he said today, he will say the opposite tomorrow.

Quote from: Sal1981 on September 08, 2018, 10:53:27 AM
I didn't figure you to be a presentist, Baruch.

Have said so several times.  However from the Present, in what direction do I look?  Well opposite of most people here.  I look to the past (tradition).  But I am not conservative (they live in the past).  But I am of course not liberal either (they live in the future).  People who live in the past or live in the future are deluding themselves, they think they are Time Lords.

The past is regret and pride.  The future is fear and hope.  Emotions, not facts.  Of course emotions are real too, just not in the way that materialists think.

Being "presentist" is part of my Buddhist influenced development, and my demi-god ideology.

Quote from: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 11:11:28 AM
Don't worry, whatever it was he said today, he will say the opposite tomorrow.

Thesis + Antithesis -> Synthesis ... is it how I dialect (ical method).

Quote from: Baruch on September 08, 2018, 11:53:18 AM
Have said so several times.  However from the Present, in what direction do I look?  Well opposite of most people here.  I look to the past (tradition).  But I am not conservative (they live in the past).  But I am of course not liberal either (they live in the future).  People who live in the past or live in the future are deluding themselves, they think they are Time Lords.

The past is regret and pride.  The future is fear and hope.  Emotions, not facts.  Of course emotions are real too, just not in the way that materialists think.

Being "presentist" is part of my Buddhist influenced development, and my demi-god ideology.

I like your message in this.  But you just cannot help but put things into black-and-white categories.  And you make pronouncements that you seem to take as truisms..:.'not liberal either (they live in the future).'  I am a liberal, but I don't live in the future.  I have hopes and wishes for the future, but I realize those don't usually pan out; I take what life gives me and then deal with in it in the present. 

Another truism for you:  "Of course emotions are real too, just not in the way that materialists think."  Yes, emotions are real and this very much materialist knows this.  Emotions are real and have a deep impact on the lives of us all.

Quote from: Mike Cl on September 08, 2018, 01:01:22 PM
I like your message in this.  But you just cannot help but put things into black-and-white categories.  And you make pronouncements that you seem to take as truisms..:.'not liberal either (they live in the future).'  I am a liberal, but I don't live in the future.  I have hopes and wishes for the future, but I realize those don't usually pan out; I take what life gives me and then deal with in it in the present. 

Another truism for you:  "Of course emotions are real too, just not in the way that materialists think."  Yes, emotions are real and this very much materialist knows this.  Emotions are real and have a deep impact on the lives of us all.

True/false, Black/White ... so you oppose all languages, or just English?  In New Speak, all words are the same, you have to use context to follow it, but it is a beau jeste.  This is what relativism gets you.

Yes, you use English, your way.  Same as me, yet different.  Thank G-d we have the French Academy to determine what the legal definition of all French words are, and can enforce it (in France).  You may not use "hamburger" in a French publication ;-)

Typically the autistic male devalues emotions, not having any.  A progressive is an optimist.  A regressive is a pessimist.  And a pessimist is afraid that the optimist is right ;-))

Quote from: Baruch on September 08, 2018, 03:08:49 PM
True/false, Black/White ... so you oppose all languages, or just English?  In New Speak, all words are the same, you have to use context to follow it, but it is a beau jeste.  This is what relativism gets you.

Yes, you use English, your way.  Same as me, yet different.  Thank G-d we have the French Academy to determine what the legal definition of all French words are, and can enforce it (in France).  You may not use "hamburger" in a French publication ;-)

Typically the autistic male devalues emotions, not having any.  A progressive is an optimist.  A regressive is a pessimist.  And a pessimist is afraid that the optimist is right ;-))

???? You do like to drone on..........You did not address a single one of my points.  You seem to speak only Baruchish and I just can't follow it.

Well, as Lo Pan said to Jack Burton, "You are not brought upon this world to get it!"

;-P

Quote from: Mike Cl on September 08, 2018, 08:07:08 PM
???? You do like to drone on..........You did not address a single one of my points.  You seem to speak only Baruchish and I just can't follow it.

Sorry.  I really don't try to obfuscate.  Other than trying to avoid direct personal insult (but I will insult your group or humanity in general).  I will look at it again.

Quote from: Mike Cl on September 08, 2018, 01:01:22 PM
I like your message in this.

OK

QuoteBut you just cannot help but put things into black-and-white categories.

OK, can we put things into pseudo numerical terms ... 1-10 with 1 being White and 10 being Black?  If we don't divide things up, into contrasting positions, then thought and communication are impossible (hence the technique described in New Speak, to make thought and communication impossible).

QuoteAnd you make pronouncements that you seem to take as truisms..:.'not liberal either (they live in the future).'

A is like C as B is like D.  Part of college entrance tests.  Match one pair with another pair, to show that they are related.

QuoteI am a liberal, but I don't live in the future.  I have hopes and wishes for the future, but I realize those don't usually pan out;

OK.  And you are an outlier, vs my proposed definition above.  No actual population matches any definition exactly.

QuoteI take what life gives me and then deal with in it in the present. 

Exactly what I do too.

QuoteAnother truism for you:  "Of course emotions are real too, just not in the way that materialists think."  Yes, emotions are real and this very much materialist knows this.  Emotions are real and have a deep impact on the lives of us all.

Well then, you aren't autistic.

Your response was complicated, and my original response was too.  This parses it into individual ideas.  But don't expect me to provide footnotes.

Black is just a shade of white, at least, according to Action Lab:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-OCfiglZRQ&t=1s

Quote from: Unbeliever on September 09, 2018, 05:48:20 PM
Black is just a shade of white, at least, according to Action Lab:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-OCfiglZRQ&t=1s

It's kind of interesting additional commentary on the old teaching, "White is a presence of all colors, and black is the absence of all colors."  What I found most interesting is that brown is actually just low intensity  orange.  I can kind of picture that in my imagination.  I would have liked to see him demonstrate that, just to see it.

It is not uncommon for people to confuse light with color.  What we see as color is just what light is reflected from an object.  A tomato is "red" because it absorbs all other frequencies of light.  What we see is the frequency it doesn't absorb.  So, in a way, the color we think an object is, is the color it really isn't.  At least, the light it doesn't accept.

Brown, BTW, is truly the weirdest color.  It doesn't show up in a rainbow.  A sort or blackish/bluish orange.  It takes some work to make brown from a standard set of oil paints.  Look at a color wheel and try to find brown on it.

Quote from: Cavebear on September 12, 2018, 05:12:56 AM
It is not uncommon for people to confuse light with color.  What we see as color is just what light is reflected from an object.  A tomato is "red" because it absorbs all other frequencies of light.  What we see is the frequency it doesn't absorb.  So, in a way, the color we think an object is, is the color it really isn't.  At least, the light it doesn't accept.

Brown, BTW, is truly the weirdest color.  It doesn't show up in a rainbow.  A sort or blackish/bluish orange.  It takes some work to make brown from a standard set of oil paints.  Look at a color wheel and try to find brown on it.

Kudos for this.  You can finger paint now.

Quote from: Cavebear on September 12, 2018, 05:12:56 AM
It is not uncommon for people to confuse light with color.  What we see as color is just what light is reflected from an object.  A tomato is "red" because it absorbs all other frequencies of light.  What we see is the frequency it doesn't absorb.  So, in a way, the color we think an object is, is the color it really isn't.  At least, the light it doesn't accept.

Brown, BTW, is truly the weirdest color.  It doesn't show up in a rainbow.  A sort or blackish/bluish orange.  It takes some work to make brown from a standard set of oil paints.  Look at a color wheel and try to find brown on it.

That is true about color.  Some of my students refused to believe me when I said that in science class.  (I think they were christian :))).  What is weird from my viewpoint is that I see much more brown than there really is.  I see some shades of red, green, orange and sometimes blue as brown. 

Quote from: Mike Cl on September 12, 2018, 08:59:11 AM
That is true about color.  Some of my students refused to believe me when I said that in science class.  (I think they were christian :))).  What is weird from my viewpoint is that I see much more brown than there really is.  I see some shades of red, green, orange and sometimes blue as brown.

Congratulations, you are male with a slight color failure.  Seeing orange-blue is typically brown to many men.  Blame your mother.  For reasons I won't even bother to look up (who cares) men see movement and details better than women, but women see many more distinct colors that most men.

https://www.livescience.com/22894-men-and-women-see-things-differently.html (https://www.livescience.com/22894-men-and-women-see-things-differently.html)

So when the woman in you love goes "ick" about your choice of clothes, pay attention.  You are seeing 2 green colors that seem to go together OK; she is seeing a hideous conflicting hue and shade.  Don't fight it.  Let her pick your clothes for that party.  You'll get your reward later.

I see quite a lot of hues and shades myself.  Some men do.  I KNOW when my camo pants don't quite match my shirts.  But I'm single and don't really care. 

Have I failed to offend anyone yet?  LOL!

Quote from: Cavebear on September 12, 2018, 09:52:14 AM
Congratulations, you are male with a slight color failure.  Seeing orange-blue is typically brown to many men.  Blame your mother.  For reasons I won't even bother to look up (who cares) men see movement and details better than women, but women see many more distinct colors that most men.

https://www.livescience.com/22894-men-and-women-see-things-differently.html (https://www.livescience.com/22894-men-and-women-see-things-differently.html)

So when the woman in you love goes "ick" about your choice of clothes, pay attention.  You are seeing 2 green colors that seem to go together OK; she is seeing a hideous conflicting hue and shade.  Don't fight it.  Let her pick your clothes for that party.  You'll get your reward later.

I see quite a lot of hues and shades myself.  Some men do.  I KNOW when my camo pants don't quite match my shirts.  But I'm single and don't really care. 

Have I failed to offend anyone yet?  LOL!

I learned long ago to let my wife be in charge of color schemes.  She will ask me at times, 'what do you think of that color?'; I then ask if she really wants to know. :))  Any more, like you, I don't really care what colors I wear--if it is comfortable, that all I care about.

Quote from: Mike Cl on September 12, 2018, 11:17:28 AM
I learned long ago to let my wife be in charge of color schemes.  She will ask me at times, 'what do you think of that color?'; I then ask if she really wants to know. :))  Any more, like you, I don't really care what colors I wear--if it is comfortable, that all I care about.

Well, I know enough to not wear a red shirt with my green camo pants, but green is OK and so is black.  But red is OK with tan slacks for some reason as is any shade of blue.  The desert camo is good with tan but not much else.  I only wear solid color shirts, so that helps.

I did actually seriously study the paint color chips in the celery range last year before painting the main bathroom.  I'm not sure what to expect from it though.  Is any visitor going to come out of my bathroom breathlessly saying, "Wow that color is JUST RIGHT"?  LOL!

Quote from: Cavebear on September 12, 2018, 09:52:14 AM
I see quite a lot of hues and shades myself.  Some men do.  I KNOW when my camo pants don't quite match my shirts.  But I'm single and don't really care.

Whereas all my office slacks are black or gray, because even I can't fuck up matching a (generally solid-color) shirt with them.  I am *the* most fashion-challenged gay man on the planet.  :D

Quote from: Cavebear on September 12, 2018, 11:40:18 AM
Well, I know enough to not wear a red shirt with my green camo pants, but green is OK and so is black.  But red is OK with tan slacks for some reason as is any shade of blue.  The desert camo is good with tan but not much else.  I only wear solid color shirts, so that helps.

I did actually seriously study the paint color chips in the celery range last year before painting the main bathroom.  I'm not sure what to expect from it though.  Is any visitor going to come out of my bathroom breathlessly saying, "Wow that color is JUST RIGHT"?  LOL!

When choosing interior paint from chips, I find I helpful to find the shade of lavender, or whatever other color you want, and then count 14 shades down the intensity scale and buy that one.

My favorite interior decorating tip would be to paint everything white.  I'm talking about the white that is sold as the base, not off white, near white, or tinted white.  When it comes time to repaint a wall, you don't have to bring in a chip of the old paint and have the store use their optical reader to mix paint that almost matches the original.

The house I'm in now, was pre owned, the previous owners had never thought about white, and each room was painted it's own color.  Actually, they had done a good job in selecting colors, and for the most part I would have called it quite tasteful, except for one deep red bathroom.  I have no idea what they were thinking there.

The problem is repainting with the same colors to complement other walls becomes a nightmare of matching colors that are almost, but not quite the same.  Right now, on my paint storage shelves I have maybe 17 one gallon cans of paint, each a different color almost empty to partially full, some that are 8 years old and no longer slosh when I shake the can.  To me this is insane, when one gallon of white is all that needs to be there to make me happy.

OK, I do like the idea of one accent wall in the main living area that blasts your eyes out with one bold color in a house of white.  I've seen accent walls of hot salmon to deep intense purple that look wonderful.  You can get away with murder with an accent wall, as long as everything else is intense white.  But don't overdo it unless you want to feel like you're living in a taco stand.

To make matters worse, the recent introduction of paint that comes with primer cancels out all previous formulas.  You would think that white is white, but it's not.  Last week I took in an old paint can with the mixing formula label on it, so I could touch up an area of a ceiling.  The hardware man told me he couldn't match the formula because the new paint was different, and his optical device wasn't working for some reason.  I told him to mix a quart and I'd give it a try, but it was a waste of time and money.  It wasn't even close, so I went to Lowes where their reader was working, but I haven't painted over the hideous patch of that last quart yet.  I don't want to repaint the entire ceiling.  It's 19 feet high at the peak and runs through the living room, kitchen and dinning area, around an island workspace in the kitchen.

I'm not convinced primer in the paint is a good idea, and I don't know why diluting expensive paint with primer, which costs a third, results in more expensive paint than just plain paint.  It doesn't do a better job of coverage.  You still need two coats, even though for the last 30 years the paint can always advertises one coat is all that is needed.

Quote from: SGOS on September 12, 2018, 12:50:14 PM
When choosing interior paint from chips, I find I helpful to find the shade of lavender, or whatever other color you want, and then count 14 shades down the intensity scale and buy that one.

One good trick is to take anything to the front of the store in daylight and see how the color looks there.  I sold woman's dress shoes once in a store and increased the sales a lot letting them see the shoes in daylight.  Fluorescent light lie, and got me too many returns.  But if a woman liked to color in daylight, they never returned those.  Another is to mix your paint with some white paint to lighten it.  Just stick a whisk in your drill and mix thoroughly.