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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Islam => Topic started by: Mousetrap on August 03, 2018, 07:13:29 AM

Title: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 03, 2018, 07:13:29 AM
I receive quite a few posts where Atheists claim that the Bible condones Slavery, and this the reason why the West practiced this horrible violation of human rights.
I was confronted by a lot of Muslims that also follwed suit, and accused the Bible, especially the God of the Bible, as a slave monger with a holy book commanding Christians to practice slavery.
One only have to listen to any critisizm against the Bible from Teller and Pen, Dawkins, Singer, and every atheist on the forefront, to be witness that the Bible MUST BE THE SOURCE OF SLAVERY.
in Dawkins' own words, "...YHWH is a slave monger..."

After I researched the so called "contradictions in the Bible", claimed by Atheists and Muslims, I thought that if the Bible gave humans instructions to enslave others, then I will have to discard it.

So, what did I do?
I did not just listen, as most atheists does, to what people tell me what the Bible says, I went and read for myself.

You see, if there is one thing that I managed in life, it was to achieve the gift of reading.
So, I went and read everything about slavery from the Bible.

I did not stop there, I also read what the Quran and Hadith said about this topic.

Now, the following essay is an elaborate work, but once you went through the info, you will be amazed at the findings.

I leave this for whoever needs to know the truth about slavery in the West.

Enjoy your weekend.
NS, I am pasting it on the next post.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 03, 2018, 07:28:14 AM
Is Slavery instructed from the Bible, or from the Quran?
This document is not intended to demonize, or insult any Muslims. I find Muslims to be very sincere in their religion and living a life to please God to attain eternal life. Even I, as a Christian can only wish to be as dedicated to maintain such rituals and regulations as Muslim believers achieve. It is also true that Muslim believers are peaceful and respectful of other people and nations and many live their lives for their family and communities. However, just as 99% of Christians never read the Bible, we find the same statistics of Muslims never read the Quran. Those who did read the Quran, did so in reading Arabic which only a fraction of them understand what they read. This is why the majority of Muslims are totally unaware of what the Bible and Quran teaches. Again, just as we have Christians listening to their scholars to hear what the Bible says, Muslims listen to their scholars on what the Quran teaches, and both sections believe what they hear and don’t find out for themselves. Now, imagine what the result will be if we listen to the Christian scholar teaching us about the Quran, and the Muslim scholar teaching about the Bible! Chaos will erupt to say the least.

This document will prove that some Muslim scholars are totally misrepresenting the Bible, and are guilty of wholesale deception. I recorded the exact words and actions of one Muslim scholar in particular to demonstrate to what extend some Muslim scholars will go to pervert the Bible in an effort to brainwash innocent Muslims on what the Bible really teaches. What this Muslim scholar did was to create a misrepresentation on slavery in the Bible, and even attempted to blame ISIS sex slavery on the Triune God!

I decided to review this subject in full, and took almost every verse from the Bible on the subject of slavery, and analysed it to discover the truth for myself. I was amazed at my discovery. Eventually I studied the Quran, Hadith, and History to determine a balanced opinion between Christianity and Islam on the subject of slavery and sex slavery. If you read this document, it is easy to go to all the references I supplied and to make your own decision on the Truth you wish to embrace.
Be aware, this essay will take you to incredible knowledge even I, as a simple an uneducated man, did not even know existed, but stumbled upon simply by reading a few books.

I hope you will enjoy this journey through these pages with me.
Open essay to Advocate Yusuf Ismail on the accusation that the Trinity institutionalised slavery in the Bible.

Greetings Mr. Ismail,
I sincerely hope you are well and wish you all fortunes in life.


As promised, I thought it wise to write this summary on your accusation that the Bible institutionalised slavery. I witness a lot of Islamic writings, and you tube videos, where Muslim scholars are now in such a predicament in an attempt to explain the instructions to commit violence from within the Quran away, whilst terrorist groups such as ISIS and other Islamic Jihadists are decimating any thinking of a ‘Peaceful Islam’ from the Quran. The only option left for you and your Islamic propagandists, is to promulgate everyone in believing that the Bible is worse in violent descriptions and that Christians should be the least to criticize the Quran and Muhammad when comparing their religious book with the Quran
I was amazed that you went so far as to accuse the Bible as the root cause of Islamic terrorism!
One good example of this is when you used the “slavery verses” of the Bible as a counter attack in your debate against Usama Dakdok on 19 April 2017. (With your debate in “Is ISIS a true representation of Islam?”) 

You made the following statements.  (Please note, this is an exact dictation of the words you used)
1.   You read from the Bible, “In Numbers 31:17 the Bible says kill all the men, women and children, but keep alive all the young girls for sex…” You asked, how does a soldier in the field verify if a women is a virgin or not?
2.   And you continued to read, “I think again we have double standards here, because if you look at Leviticus 25: 44-46 and particularly in Exodus 21: 7…1 to 11 it says, if a man sell his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of the six years, if she does not PLEASURE the man, WHAT DOES PLEASURE MEAN OSAMA? Then the man who bought her may sell her”.
3.   You also read and quoted, “In Leviticus 25:44-46 Lev 25:44…you may purchase male or female slaves from the foreigners amongst you. You may purchase children of such residence, foreigners; YOU MAY TREAT THEM AS PROPERTY! Passing them on to your children as their inheritance, you can treat them as slaves, AND YOU CAN ENGAGE IN SEX WITH THEM!”…”Sex slavery is institutionalized in the context of the Old Testament…”

However, when I heard you reading from the Bible, I immediately knew that what you read was incorrect and not the words from those quoted verses.
I took the time to look at your accusations and to investigate if what you said is truly to be found in the Bible or not.

1.   If you go back and watch how you read Numbers 31:17, you will have to admit that you pretended to read the verse, and you inserted the words “for sex” into it. These words are not in the Bible! Now why on earth would you do that?
a.   Secondly, you imply that the soldiers of Israel went and raped the girls and women to determine if they were virgins or not! You even asked Usama, on his thoughts on what method was used to establish these women and girls’ virginity. Yusuf, you are really ignorant on archaeology and history not knowing that they were Baal worshippers. Those women were forced to shave their hair if they refused to practice temple prostitution! They obviously also wore different clothing once married or usurped into their religious practices. I can ask, how you think they determined if the girls were virgins or not. By a dirty mind perhaps?
2.   Again, in Exodus 21:1 to 11 you gave a description of how a daughter can be sold to a man, and if she does not “PLEASURE’ the man, he can sell her. Here you deliberately changed the word “PLEASE” to “PLEASURE’! In a clever way of deception you changed the meaning of the verse from a servant girl who pleases her master by being virtuous, to a sex slave who must pleasure her master, or gets sold! You even shouted, what does ‘pleasure’ means Usama?
a.   If I please my superior at work, I am a worthy employee, but I will refuse to pleasure my manager indeed! Do you please or pleasure your superiors Yusuf?
b.   Well, in your mind, is might also mean a “filthy pretty Please”. Oh, and note! This is the second time you pretended to read from the Bible, and inserted your own words!
3.   Now we come to the grand finale on how you pretended to read scripture and added some more words that do not exist in the Bible. You said that if we read Leviticus 25: 44, we will find that you can buy slaves, inherit them, and treat them as property, “AND YOU CAN ENGAGE IN SEX WITH THEM! Well, guess what, those words are also not in the Bible at all! Yusuf, you inserted it into the verse whilst pretending to read the Bible!  You blatantly ended off with the words, “sex slavery is institutionalized in the context of the Old Testament…” Wow, you really demonstrated something other than being an honest and truthful debater.

The question you should answer is, “Why on earth you did deliberately distort the Biblical wording by deceivingly added to what it says? If I were to do that, you would be the first to call me a liar!
About a week later, you had a radio podcast with Radush Shubuhaat and the topic was again: A Closer Look at Violence, Slavery & Rape in the QUR’AN and BIBLE by YUSUF ISMAIL.
 
You said exactly the same as what you did as with Usama Dakdok, but added a nice bit of distortion to the event when you quoted Deuteronomy 22: 28 to 29 and asked if this was how the Triune God allows a man to rape a girl, and then forces her to marry her rapist? You spent some time in teaching that the Arabic word for “Rape” does not appear in the Quran, but it does appear in the Arabic Bible in Deut 22: 28. I find it amazing how you at many instances would demand to read any scripture from the Quran and to adhere to “interpretation by context”, but you blatantly undermine such context when quoting from the Bible. If you did take the context into consideration by reading the previous verses of Deuteronomy 22 verses 20 up to 29, you will have to agree that your argument is in error.
Allow me to supply you with a simple demonstration of context.

Firstly, the Bible is very clear on adultery.
•   If a man commits adultery with a married woman, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
However, the Bible is clear on adultery between a man and engaged woman, and a women forced into rape by a man.
•   If a women who is a virgin and is engaged to a man, and another man find her in the city and commits adultery, both shall be stoned to death. The woman for not crying out that she was raped and therefore it is clear that she consented, and the man is also guilty in committing the act of adultery. Here we undoubtedly see that this woman was participating in the affair, and did nothing to prevent the situation. 
•   On the contrary, the verses says that if the women did cry out, only the rapist will be executed because she tried to prevent this act and was innocently attacked. 

Finally, the Bible is also very clear about fornication.
•   A man obviously unmarried, and woman who is a virgin but not engaged to anyone, gets caught in a sexual act will not be executed. The reason for this is that they did not commit adultery because they were not married or engaged to someone else.
•   This means that both were unmarried and consensual in the act of fornication. In modern time language, they were boyfriend and girlfriend. Now upon discovery, the man will have to marry this woman and he will never have the right to divorce this woman throughout his lifetime, unlike other couples who did not engage in premarital sex. 

In conclusion, you made a huge mistake in an attempt to have everyone thinking that the woman was raped in Deuteronomy 22: 28 and she was forced into a marriage with her rapist! If ever you continue to demand otherwise, please understand that you are not prosecutor, judge and jury on this case. Anyone can read the verses prior to your reference and will see that you selectively chose only verse 28 to suit your argument. Here we looked at the context and found that you were misrepresenting the verses you selected.

Let’s get back to your accusation that the Bible institutionalized slavery.

Yusuf, I advised you to retract your remarks, seeing that you condone the killing and raping practiced by Islamic organisations such as ISIS, AL Qaida, and friends; whilst at the same time refusing to speak out against their crimes targeted on innocent people. You refused, thereby participating in Islamic Jihad and covering your hands in innocent blood; therefore is this letter.
I decided to recall a study I made a few years ago, which I supplied you a copy of in 2010, about the Biblical institution of slavery to remove any future attacks by Muslim scholars, as well as to equip every Christian with the Truth on what slavery in the Bible and Quran dictates to mankind. I made some changes to include the current display of insolence by you.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 03, 2018, 07:34:32 AM
A Closer Look at Violence, Slavery & Rape in The QUR'AN And BIBLE
by YUSUF ISMAIL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dksMi20sGLc
Slavery in the Bible and Quran!
by Mouse Trap (Aug 2010)
A few months ago a Muslim scholar confronted me about the “Bible condoning slavery”. I was at first caught off guard and definitely did not know what to answer. Needless to say, he kept on talking on how the Europeans and Americans used the Bible in support of slavery. I remember the vindictiveness he utilized in telling me that my ancestors in South Africa were also guilty of this immoral practice. Imagine being a Christian and White Afrikaner in South Africa with a researched genealogy dating from 1659. My great grandfathers surely had slaves, and I can never claim otherwise.
One thing is for certain; my “Greats” were protestant Christians, persecuted in Europe, settled in the Cape colony and moved to the inland in 1848 with the Great Trek. History also proves that there were no slaves left in the Transvaal (Province in Southern Africa) after 1850 and quite frankly, if my Greats had slaves, it does not suggest the Bible is wrong?
This accusation he made against Christians, who supposedly used the Bible to enforce slavery, never bothered me until I read the Muslim scholar, Ahmed Moosa’s book “My Bible says this…my Bible says that…” This is a booklet advertised and distributed by the Islamic Propagation Centre International (IPCI) in which Yusuf Ismail wrote the preface of.
Well, I think it appropriate to show everyone just how the Muslim scholar twists and turns the truth to the advantage of their religion.
This is the exact words of Ahmed Moosa: (Page 18 & 19,My Bible says this…my Bible says that…A. Moosa)
BIBLE CONDONES SLAVERY AND VIOLENCE AGAINST SLAVES: AMERICA WAS BUILT ON SLAVE LABOUR AS THE WHITE EUROPEAN CHRISTIANS OBEYED THIS ORDER OF THE BIBLE:
God Accepts and Condones Slavery; and the Beating of Slaves:
“And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him forever.” (Exodus 21:5-6)
“Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.” (Leviticus 25:44 ( KJV). “As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves.” (Leviticus 25:44, NRSV)
“And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luke 12:47)
Note: “servant” here means slave. The Biblical Jesus lived in a time when slavery flourished, yet He never spoke or fought against it.
“English North Americans embraced slavery because they were Christians, not in spite of it … It was Christianity that perverted the African’s way of life… Not leaving them alone was the real tragedy.” -Forrest G. Wood

I can only shake my head in dismay when Ahmed Moosa used a footnote and cited from Forrest G. Wood. That man is a staunch atheist and A. Moosa seems to be totally unaware that the atheists also despise Islam as they do Christianity! F. G. Wood did not take into account that all the other countries, religions, and communities practiced slavery300 years ago. He wrote a little about the Islamic practices of slavery, but deliberately targeted the Christian whilst ignoring the opposition in Christianity who rid the West of this inhumane oppression. Out of all the governments, religions, and movements on earth, it was the Christians who fought wars and lost lives to free humans from the chains of slavery. Anyhow, the Muslim scholar adores the writings of the atheist whenever they insult Christianity, but are silent on atheist’s remarks against Islam. I think they hope and pray that no one will notice how their sources destroy the Quran and the prophet of Islam himself!
Now, if we read the accusations made by A. Moosa in his booklet, we at first feel disgusted in having never noticed the topic of slavery in the Bible…“condoned slavery”! But is it true? Did our ancestors learn from the Bible that slavery is a good thing? Is the God of the Bible such a despicable character that He would allow the subjugation of all human rights?
Yes, this is exactly what A Moosa implies! I mean, he even emphasizes that Jesus condoned slavery because He never spoke or fought against it! What Ahmed Moosa did with this publication was to join up with the IPCI and their Spokesperson, Yusuf Ismail, to get these accusations through to non-suspecting Muslims.

Now, quite frankly, how many normal Muslims will ever cross-refer with the Bible on these accusations made by their leaders? None!
In other words, Yusuf Ismail, Ahmad Moosa, and all their Muslim brothers at the IPCI, are making the following accusations:
•   The God of the Bible institutionalised slavery.
•   God Condones Slavery;
•   God commanded the beating of Slaves.
•   Jesus condoned slavery and never spoke against it.
•   The Bible is a terrible source of suppression of human rights and Christians used it to enforce the slave trade.
So, what does the Bible say about slavery?
I was quite surprised at the Biblical citations about slavery. Once examined and explained from the scriptures, I again saw how the attack from the Muslim and atheist only resulted into the Word of God being glorified!  Who would have guessed that something as bad as slavery will reveal our humanitarian rights we take for granted. Without further ado, let’s see for ourselves what the Bible says and not what some Muslim scholar said whilst trying his utmost to destroy the Bible with false accusations.
What was the reason for God to allow slavery in Israel?
It is true; God did institutionalise slavery in Israel!
But, I was in admiration to realise that the slavery from the Law of God, was not the same as was practiced by say, the Romans, Europe, Asia, America, and South Africa from time forgotten until 1840? Well, what a surprise to learn that the slavery mentioned in the Bible is not closely represented to what was practiced by the slave trade we are accustomed to read from the books of history.
1) Slavery was institutionalised to save poor family from starvation.
Reading Deuteronomy 15: 11  and Leviticus 25: 47 , we see that God says there will always be poor people in Israel. It is a sociological fact that no one can dispute. Even in modern times people die from starvation while their neighbours look on. However, God instructs the Nation of Israel to allow one family member to be sold to a rich family as a servant, or as the Muslim scholar would like to call it, a ‘slave’. This person will work for their master and he has to pay enough money to support this slave’s family for up to 6 years! That must have been a lot of money in the first instance. Think about it. Your parents and siblings will have enough money to be provided for body and soul for 6 years! In the passage provided, we find this an institution as a way out of starvation and even out of death!
One might think of this as terrible and cruel, but don’t compare modern times with that of the ancients. For instance, the late third century AD when the Huns pushed the Visigoths out of their lands and the Visigoths couldn’t enter the Roman Empire, they were stranded without land, food and resources for a few years. Famine was ripe and their elderly and children started dying. The only way out for these parents was to sell their children as slaves to the Roman army.
Think about what you will do when famine strikes and 4 out of your six children eventually succumbs to death due to starvation. Won’t you rather sell the remaining two children into slavery knowing they will survive and will receive food, protection and might even achieve a future they otherwise would never have had? Difficult choice indeed, especially if you had a meal a few hours ago and find it impossible to place yourself in the situation of someone that didn’t have food for more than a month. Think how sad to see one after the other child die!
Anyhow, God instructed Israel to ensure that this never happened with their families. One member of the poor family will work at a rich man as a servant (technically not a slave) for the survival of the rest.
The Anglo – European slave traders and Arab slave traders in Africa never paid the families of slaves to save them from starvation! No, they simply abducted them and carried them away!   
2)  How long a period will this person be a slave to his new master?
What the Muslim scholar never wanted us to learn in their propaganda about slavery from the Bible is that this person, the bought slave, will only work for 6 years at most! (Deuteronomy 15: 12  )(Exodus 21: 2 )
The Muslim scholar also never knew that Israel had a Sabbatical year every seven years. On that year, the law stipulated that every slave must be set free! If that slave was bought in the 5th or even the 6th year or part thereof, he will be freed on the end of the 6th year. No argument, that’s the law! There will be no compensation paid to the slave’s owner at all.
The Anglo – European slave traders and Arab slave traders in Africa never freed their slaves, or made them work for a predetermined time period, but kept them in captivity for the remainder of their lives!      
3) The servant could terminate his period of slavery!
Now, who would have thought that the servant could buy his freedom back? If his family members somehow managed to change their situation when money befell them, they were allowed to buy the family member back from the servant master at the calculated amount left for the period he still had to work, and not for the full original purchase amount. (Leviticus 25: 48 -49 )(Leviticus 25: 50 -52 )(Leviticus 25: 53 ) Here we have the value of the servant depreciated, not because of physical evaluation, but calculated on the remainder of his employment period. Now that’s what I call fair!
The Anglo – European slave traders and Arab slave traders in Africa never sold their slaves cheaper than what they bought them for!     

4) The slave had civil rights and was protected by God’s law to be treated fair.
No one was allowed to treat the slave harshly. (Leviticus 25: 53 ) Even when a slave died under the hand of his master, that person was guilty of murder! (Exodus 21: 20 -21 )
What’s more is that the slave must be set free for as little as something as if his master hurt the slaves eye or even knocked out a tooth!(Exodus 21: 26 -27 ) Now, show me a master of a slave that would harm his slave to stand the chance of losing his investment?
The slave was also obliged to rest on the Sabbath day. (Deuteronomy 5: 14 )
If that slave escaped, you were not allowed to deliver him back to his owner. You will now be his guardian. (Deuteronomy 23: 15- 16 ) You are now required by law to protect him from any harm. Any slave that needed to escape from harsh and bad treatment could escape to be kept safe!
The Anglo – European slave traders and Arab slaver traders in Africa never treated the slave as a human, but killed, maimed and even tortured them! Never was a slave freed for a simple thing as losing a tooth! God knows how many slaves were murdered and the killers were never prosecuted. Escaped slaves were sometimes even hanged! I know of stories in the Americas where a slave’s hand was chopped off because he dared to learn to write!
5) The rights of the slave’s wife and children.

Upon completion of the 6th year of service, the slave and his children will be free. (Leviticus 25: 54 )
If the slave went into slavery accompanied with his wife, she will also go free.   (Exodus 21: 3 )
But, the slave got married when he was in service of his master and they had children; the wife and children would remain in service if he was to go free. (Exodus 21: 4 ) (The reason is that the freed husband will not be able to look after his children. However, he can buy them free if his fortune changes. (As previously quoted this law is found in Leviticus 25: 48-53)
The Anglo – European slave traders and Arab slaver traders in Africa never allowed the slaves to remain in captivity as a family! The wife was sold and even children was removed from the family and sold to gain more money. Slaves were even kept to breed more slaves!
6) Slaves could voluntarily stay on when his service was completed.
If a slave decides to stay with his master, wife and children, he undergoes a ritual whereby his ear gets pierced. (Exodus 21: 5- 6 )(Deuteronomy 15: 16-17 ).
**** Please note how deceitful the Muslim scholars are when they used the mentioned verses to the unsuspecting reader and never mentioned the slave loved his master and wanted to remain in his service. The Muslim scholar implied that the slave was somehow tortured by having his ear pierced. Nice piece of deception indeed!
Needless to say, the Anglo American slave-owners or the Arab slave traders in Africa never freed their slaves to determine if any of them wanted to remain captive.
7) Rights of the female slave.
If a family sells a daughter, with the intent to enter into marriage with her master, or his son, and for some reason she no longer pleases the fiancée, she was free to return to her family even before the expiration date of her employment contract. This law shows that the intent of the contract to work by her new master was to be engaged to her, and he acted deceitfully with her. If for some reason he engaged in sex with her, he would have had to marry her. (Deut 22: 28) (Exodus 21: 11 )
With further understanding of the law, if they did get married, we see that the female servant in Israel could eventually end up as the owner of her master’s estate in marriage! It was also forbidden to sell her to other nations outside of Israel. (Exodus 21: 7 -8 ) this is also more information withheld by the Muslim scholar when quoting this verse.
The servant daughter who was betrothed to the master’s son had all the rights of common law as the rest of the nation. If her husband takes another wife, he is still obliged to support her as before. If he does not support her as before he married his second wife, she is free to go without her paying compensation. (She was already paid for and saved her family from destruction for 6 years, and she didn’t need to pay any compensation for leaving earlier.) (Exodus 21: 9 -11 ) No hint of Yusuf Ismail’s false allegation that this woman was a sex slave and YHWH allowed her to be kept as one. And Yusuf, you even went so far as to accuse YHWH of being the root cause of ISIS’s practice of sex slavery! Man, I am glad I don’t have to answer to God what you preach to your Muslim brothers!
The Anglo – European slave traders and Arab slave traders in Africa used, misused and did with the female slave as they pleased! There was never any consideration given to her needs, but was simply a possession to discard at will!
8) Compensation to the slave for his work done.
The slave, even if a hired hand for the day, must be paid immediately after he completed his work. (Deuteronomy 24: 14 -15 )
When the Hebrew slave is set free, the master is obliged to not let him go away empty-handed. The master must give from everything he gained in his estate from when that slave started to work for him. These slaves could become very rich in such a contract. (Deuteronomy 15: 13 – 15 )
By giving the slave freedom, God also blesses the master. (Deuteronomy 15: 18 )
Only at the end of slavery in the West, was some compensation paid by the Anglo American slave-owners to the freed slaves. However, one will never be able to compare it with the “severance package” the slave in Israel received from his owner.
9) Slaves even became “managers” for their rich family members.
The rich master appointed a servant as manager over his workers. (Ruth 2: 5 )
Even the priests employed slaves to help them with the sacrifice. (1 Samuel 2: 15 )
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 03, 2018, 07:37:45 AM
10) Forced labour.
We also find second type of slave in the Bible. That is the one called “forced labourers”. Solomon drafted forced labour from the other nationalities living in Palestine to assist in building the temple and palaces. They were conscripted, drafted and recruited whilst they stayed in the land under the protection of Israel. (2 Chronicles 8: 7 -8 / Joshua 16: 10  / 1 Kings 4: 6  / 1 Kings 9: 21  / 2 Chronicles 8: 7 -8 )
If anyone accuses God that He used non Israelites as slaves (forced slaves), they are making a number of mistakes in their assumption.
•   God did not instruct Solomon to use forces labour. It was part of the governmental institutions.
•   These forced labourers were not slaves, but conscripted men of non-Israelite heritage living in the land.
•   David and Solomon, as well as all the other kings of Israel and Judah, conscripted the whole of Israel to be part of a reservist army. All the tribes had to ensure that their young men were actively called up for duty. (1 Chronicles 27: 1- 24)
Yet, on the other hand…
•   The non-Israelites were not to be trusted in the military force, but they were  conscripted to work a certain period to do community work.
I remember how the South African government (in the apartheid years) conscripted every young white South African man to do a total of 4 years military service. Anyone that refused, such as the Jehovah’s witnesses, was sent to 4 years community service and wore orange clothing for the duration of that time. In the US you would be sentenced to a similar “jail time”. After the Second World War, many Italian and German soldiers were forced into hard labour in the west, and many of these men stayed on in this new land as citizens. It is a fact, these “forced labourers” were drafted into conscription service to do their part for the country. They were not some captured slave, worked to death by slave masters on instruction from God!
11)  Moses and Israel are also called God’s slave/servant.
Israel was God’s servants for He brought them free from Egypt where they were slaves to pharaoh. (Leviticus 25: 55 ) Moses is also called a slave or servant (Exodus 14: 31 ) Does that mean that God condones slavery because he called Moses a slave? That will be a great error in assumption!
12) Israel was commanded by God to treat the foreigner respectfully with equal rights before the Law.
Because Israel was a stranger in Egypt, God instructed them never to oppress the stranger in their land. (Exodus 22: 21  / Exodus 23: 9 )
The stranger, non-Israelite, and the Israelite are both decreed to adhere to the same law. Both will be treated equally under the regulatory law of the Government. (Numbers 15: 16 )
Now, if a Muslim scholar thinks the Bible authorised slave traders to go out and kidnap people in Africa, he is again not telling the truth!
The Anglo – European slave traders and Arab slave traders in Africa simply oppressed the slave in the fullest evil acts imaginable.
12)    If someone was caught practicing human trafficking, he will receive the death penalty!
(Deuteronomy 24:7)  If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.
If we used the Bible to judge the The Anglo – European slave traders and Arab slave traders in Africa we would have the death penalty sanctioned on every single one of them!
So dear Yusuf, our Muslim scholar, what does the Bible say about slavery?
Well, well, well… I was placed under the impression by the Muslim scholars that
•   the “BIBLE CONDONES SLAVERY AND VIOLENCE AGAINST SLAVES”
•   and that “AMERICA WAS BUILT ON SLAVE LABOUR BECAUSE THE WHITE EUROPEAN CHRISTIANS OBEYED THIS PRACTICE OF SLAVERY THEY RECEIVED FROM OF THE BIBLE”
•   God ACCEPTS and CONDONES Slavery;
•   and the BEATING of Slaves was an example of God’s instructions on how to treat a slave:
And what did we learn from the Bible?
That the statements from the Muslim scholars ARE LIES!
•   God NEVER instructed slavery as was practiced in the Americas, Africa and Arabia!
•   The Bible NEVER condoned such a form of slavery!
•   NEITHER did God accept and condone the beating of slaves!
All I found was a Muslim scholar telling a deceiving story from the Bible to the unaware masses of Muslims that don’t have the freedom to read the Bible for themselves. The quoted verses were deliberately edited by Muslim scholars to leave the impression that slavery was an instruction from the God of the Bible.
We are again confronted with a deceiving Muslim scholar that thinks that if he smears the Bible, he now somehow reveres the Quran! What foolish reasoning is this not! If they ever find an error in the Bible, (which they won’t) it will not somehow prove the Quran correct! The Quran should prove itself as the word of God without the use of the Bible!
On the contrary, I found the Biblical use of slavery more humane than what some of us endure in modern factory workplaces. The Bible GIVES US the answer on Labour Relations and Humanitarian support to the poor!
The Bible is clear, let one member of the family work for the rich to provide for his parents and siblings. Pay them compensation in advance to change their predicament. Sign a contract for 6 years only and let him go with a severance package reflecting to the amount he was worth in expanding the estate of that rich person. If we were to obey this commandment from the God of the Bible, there will never be poor families! Gosh, I will be much better off than my current worth of estate!
But, as always, I wondered why the Muslim scholar would anyway attack the Bible in such a fashion. These Muslim scholars are, believe it or not, educated in Biblical narrations and they know the Bible better than most Christian scholars. Don’t, ever think they just made a simple mistake in their analysis on certain topics – no, no, they deliberately twist and turn the truth to benefit their religion. They use such attacks against the uninformed and simply hope their deception will never be unearthed.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 03, 2018, 07:39:29 AM
Why did the Muslim scholar lie about the Biblical truth on slavery?
Simple, they try to hide the bad slavery practices their god Allah institutionalised for their prophet Muhammad to practice!
Just look at what I found from the Quran! Below are just a few things I discovered from the Quran and Islamic traditions that our dear learned Muslim scholars concealed from our eyes!

•   If you break an oath you have three choices to pay for that offence. One of them is to free a slave. Q 5: 89  Note:
o   Therefore, the Islamic god never knew the prescribed term of a slave was 6 years!
•   If a man rejected his wife, he should free a “captive” before they “touch” each other again. Q 4: 3
o   A slave is equal to having sex with your estranged wife?
•   If one kills someone by mistake, you can free a Muslim slave as payment of guilt. Q 4: 92 . 
o   Note: What, a murderer can pay with a slave, his way out of killing someone?
•   Muhammad was allowed to marry as many as “those your right hand possesses” (female slaves carried away as booty after war). All other Muslims were also allowed to marry these female slaves.
o   Please note that Allah was the one who gave these female slaves to them in the first instance! (Q 33: 50 ) and (Q 23: 6 ) And the Muslim scholar has the audacity to accuse Jehovah as a slave monger!
•   There is a bit of compassion in the Quran for the female slave where the Muslims are not allowed to force the female slave in prostitution if she wants to remain chaste, but it is very vague. Q 24: 33 .
o   But look closely to what Allah says; don’t force a female slave into prostitution to gain a nice living if she wants to remain chaste, but if you do force her into prostitution to receive worldly gain for a comfortable life, Allah is all forgiving!
•   Muslims are not allowed to marry any women that are already married. Except of course, female slaves can be taken as a wife even if they are married! Q 4: 25 .
o   How nice, we can go and capture women when we make war, take them as a wife even if they were married! It seems as if any marriage not blessed by Allah, is no marriage at all. Muslim men therefore can take any non-Muslim women as a slave and rape her under the pretence that she is his wife! He can even force her into prostitution and Allah will be forgiving! What about the woman? Does she not possess a living spirit?
•   Allah gave some Muslims more possessions than the rest. Those who were favoured by Allah would never hand their possessions over to the slaves. That would mean the slave never became equal to the Muslim master. Q 16: 71   
o   Wow, Allah ensures that the slave stays a slave!
•   No prophet is allowed to take captives if he did not first inflict a massacre in the country he attacked. Q 8: 67 -70 .
o   Note: Ok, so according to the Quran and Allah, the European countries were correct in colonizing Africa to obtain slaves! War booty came from Allah as a gift to the Muslims that participated in war! All you have to do is to tell the war captives that Allah placed you in Muslim hands because Allah knows it is better for you! What a nice way to sooth your conscience dear Muslim slave owner and female kidnapper!
•   If a slave girl married to a Muslim is caught committing adultery, she gets half the punishment than what a free Muslim woman gets for that offence. Q 4: 25 .
o   The punishment for the Muslim woman that committed adultery is also a confusing revelation. In Q 24: 2  it says she should receive 100 lashes, but in Q 4: 15  the punishment is confinement for life!
o   So what should the punishment for adultery be? This is exceptionally confusing since Muslims in the Islamic countries stone women found guilty of adultery. Such a law is not to be found in the Quran at all because after Muhammad died, a goat ate the Quran manuscript containing the verses of stoning! Even more confusing is the fact that the men don’t get stoned to death as well! Will we confine this slave woman up for half her life, or give her 50 lashes, or stone her half dead?
Only out of curiosity I wanted to know why Muslim countries under Muslim law (Shari’ah Law) stone women who committed adultery when the Quran mentions nothing of such a sanction. I bought myself the “Al’ Bukhari’s correct traditions”, (a concise volume of) and was absolutely shocked at the contents I found in this Islamic book of history. Forget about the stoning of adulterers, look at what Muhammad dictated about female sex slaves and how to capture and rape them!
The Hadith is a collection of books compiled by Muslim historians and contains all the things Muhammad supposedly said. Muslims consider the Hadith to be the second most holy book after the Quran and uses the contents thereof in their everyday life.
In the following paragraphs I eventually decided not to investigate into the fact that the stoning of women is found in the Hadith and not in the Quran, but after discovering that institutionalised slavery in Islam is described and commanded in this collection of Muhammad’s words, I decided to remain on course!
Just look at these vulgar atrocities in the Islamic holy books:
•   In the “Book of selling 1024” Muhammad gives instruction that a slave girl be whipped if she commits adultery once and even the second time. If she does it the third time, she must be sold.
o   (Nothing is said about how she was captured and raped or what happened to the Muslim man she had sex with.)
•   In the “Book of gifts and virtues 1163” Muhammad tells one of his wives that she should not have set a slave girl free, but should rather have given the girl to one of her uncles.
•   In the “Book of Faith 34” Muhammad says that if someone participates in Jihad and survives, he can get booty (obviously female sex slaves); if he dies he goes to paradise.
•   In the “Book of prayer 243” We hear how when Khaibar was conquered, it is described how all these female captives were collected and distributed by the hand of Muhammad himself! Muhammad took a girl as a slave, freed her, then married her, and then set her free as payment for her dowry!
o   Does this mean that she had to consummate the marriage to obtain her freedom?
o   How does Allah perceive holy matrimony?
•   In the “Book of Holy Battles 1613” we read how Muhammad perceived the Jewish tribes of Banu’ Quraidah and the tribe of Banun’ Nadir to have violated their peace treaty. Muhammad exiled the Banun’ nadir and waited until the Banu’Quraidah broke their treaty in assisting the enemy. Muhammad then allowed 800 men to be killed and distributed their women and children and property amongst the Muslims. History holds that under his instruction Muhammad slaughtered 600 to 800 Jewish men after they refused to assist him in war. Their women were distributed to his Muslim soldiers as sex slaves and were raped on the spot of this atrocity. Thereafter Muhammad sold the children.
o   And the Muslim regards as a “Holy war”?
•   In the “Book of Holy Battles 1629” Muhammad confirmed that the killing of the Banu’ Quraidah Jews was according to the will of Allah!
o   Muhammad stood by watching hundreds of men getting beheaded whilst the women got raped. What a merciful God is this Allah indeed.
o   The Muslim scholar tries to get out of this vulgar behaviour by their prophet by quoting their Islamic traditions saying that the Jews of Banu’ Quraidah agreed to have a fellow Jew decide their punishment, and the he condemned them to death. This guy obviously was so scared of Muhammad that he did not care to condemn others to save his own skin. In my opinion, this is not the character of the Jewish people. Jews will die with their own brethren in such a situation. This is the character they displayed for thousands of years in times of persecution. No, this Jew was definitely a Muslim convert criminal joining in on the orgy after Muhammad executed the Men.
o   What our dear Muslim scholars forget, is the atrocities committed after the execution of these 800 men. I am talking of the raping and enslavement of the women and children. Even if the Muslim scholar found a way out to rid Muhammad of the blood of the men that was killed, why could the prophet of Islam not display the mercy of his god Allah? No, he chose not to! Why? Oh, I forgot, Allah knows best!
•   In the “Book of Holy Battles 1634” The Muslims again made war against the Banul’mustaliq and took their women and children captive. When the Muslim soldiers raped these women, they asked Muhammad about interrupting ejaculation. Muhammad told them not to prevent any pregnancies because Allah is the one who creates these souls if any raped woman falls pregnant!
o   Allah created the war, the captured slaves, the raping, the conception of babies by Muslims raping their victims, and the killing…because Allah is merciful!
•   In the “Book of Holy Battles 1679” we read about an event where the Muslims collected the Booty after war and divided it amongst themselves. A man named Buraida hated Ali after Ali raped a captive woman from his booty. When Buraida complained about this to Muhammad, Muhammad stated that Ali should receive more (to rape) and Buraida should not complain.
o   Here we see that Muhammad and Allah condoned the rape of captive women and if it seems to be horrible in your eyes, don’t complain because Muslim jihadists should actually receive more than the right to rape captive women.
•   In the “Book of Emancipation 1145” Muhammad attacked the Banu’Mustaliq people without warning or reason when they were unsuspecting of any danger. He killed their men and took the women and children as slaves. He took one women himself after torturing her husband to death to find the tribes’ treasury.
o   How did he torture her husband? He kindled a fire on his chest! Allah is so kind and merciful!
Need we even continue?
There is much more evidence from Islamic history that gives us a description on how Muhammad contributed to slavery.
Just take the time and visit websites informing us about slavery from the Quran and decide for yourself.

This is what I found from the Quran and Islamic traditions about slavery…

Allah, Muhammad, the Quran and Hadith condone slavery and instruct the following:
•   Go out and make war and when you obtained victory, collect the men and slit their throats.
•   Follow this up by collecting all the women and children, divide them up amongst your Muslim fighters, remember to leave some to the prophet of Islam, and then rape them.
•   Don’t worry about getting them pregnant; it is a decree by Allah to do so! Those you don’t want, you may sell them or give them to someone else.
Now….
Why did the Muslim scholars NOT TELL US about these things before they attacked the Bible with blatant lies?
Ahmed Moosa, S. J. Ibrahim, Yusuf Ismail, and all you other Muslim scholars, do you agree that you all are deceivers?
How will you ever explain your actions to God, to the uninformed Muslims, to Christians and most of all, to your own conscience?
Shame on you!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 03, 2018, 07:40:48 AM
Conclusion:
It is true that the Western world practiced slavery. Just as it is true that they caught, bought, sold, tortured and even killed slaves as they pleased. It is true that those who benefited from slavery might even be some of my ancestors. On the contrary, it might also be true that my ancestors were from those Christians who fought for the emancipation of slavery! It is also true that none other than Christianity removed slavery in the west! But the overriding truth in this whole epoch is the fact that the Bible NEVER CONDONED SLAVERY! If anyone, atheist or Muslim scholar makes such a claim, I don’t even have to be the one calling him a deceiver! It will be an automatic supposition once you read the investigation found in this essay I compiled.
However, when reading the above facts from the Bible, Quran and historical books, we saw that the Biblical description is in stark contrast to the Quran and Islam! In the Bible we find instructions from God to practice so called “slavery” as humanitarian help for the poor! In the Quran we find slavery as was practiced by the slave traders who captured, removed and sold the people from Africa!
In the Quran and hadith we find that Muhammad and his god Allah was the guilty party in promoting slavery for personal gain, sex and power! Now that is in stark contrast to what the Muslim scholar, Ahmed Moosa, Yusuf Ismail, and Sulaiman Ibrahim accused Jesus and the Bible with!
Islam and slavery in Africa. Not so innocent either!

But, why don’t we teach the Muslim scholar that Islam was not such an innocent bystander in capturing slaves from Africa. I urge the Christian and Muslim to read about Doctor David Livingstone. In 1840 he came to South Africa and decided to join the ranks of the Christians in England and Europe in the fight to rid the Western world from the slave trade.

In his ventures and adventures into upper Africa, he was disgusted at the violent form of slavery practiced by the Muslim slave traders he personally witnessed. He saw thousands of slaves caught daily and corralled to towns on the African East coast and transported to the slave markets in Asia from jails such is still found on Zanzibar and Dar es Salam. Many were murdered before being shipped to save space on passage due to being sick or weak after being castrated.
When the pioneers in America fought for their independence and became a new nation, Thomas Jefferson in 1801 created the Navy Seals to fight the Muslim slave traders in North Africa after they captured American ships and enslaved the occupants for ransom!
In March 1786 Jefferson and John Adams met with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adjawho informed him as such:
It was written in our Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise.
His reply was to build the navy and to train the men as “Navy Seals” that one day will become the strongest power on earth. These men and their ships, with a bit of support from Sweden, Italy, and Spain, fought to rid Islamic slavery in the Mediterranean. How fitting that it is the American navy and these same allies guarding against the exact same Muslim practices as they fought 300 years ago, but now in the gulf of Aden.
Another little known fact is that Muslims in North Africa, over a period of 250 years, (1530 to 1780), took more than one million people captive from England, Italy, Corsica, and other Mediterranean areas and sold them as slaves. I do not have to elaborate on the torture, rape and killing practiced upon these people.
When the American civil war ended in America in the mid 1860’s, Muslims were still capturing slaves by their hundreds of thousands every month. Even white slaves from the south of the Caucasus Mountains were sought after collections. As a matter of fact; the Islamic slave trade continued until 1961 and is recorded by writers such as Bernard Lewis, “Race and Slavery in the Middle East” and “the Arabs in History”. Sean O’Callaghan gives full descriptions on how slaves were treated in Muslim slave markets in his book, “The Slave Trade Today”. His observations were personal first-hand experiences that he himself saw happen. People brought in to auction, boys being castrated and bought by Muslim men. Women hit with sticks, being totally naked in front of foam mouthed Muslim men bidding for their possession. This was only 50 years ago! 
So…
Dear Yusuf Ismail!
Thank you for refusing to retract your false statements you edited into the Bible. Thank you so much in accusing me of being a racist descendant of slave owners. Thank you for accusing my ancestors for learning the slave trade from the Bible!
Because if you did not do the above, I would never have learned that Allah instructed Muhammad to take women and children captive after killing their husbands in a non-existing war. Thereafter Allah even instructed Muhammad to allow the Muslim soldiers to rape their female captives on these so called “battlefields”! I also would never have learned that Allah was the one who condoned the beating of slaves. He also liked to sell them and only allowed Muslims to free a slave when he was sinned against. It was Allah who taught Muhammad that slavery was the right thing to practice.
On the contrary…
When I read the Bible, I found that all the accusations you threw against the Word of God was nothing more than an attempt to hide the bad things about your religion!
Everything you said against the Bible about slavery was totally untrue. Thank you in teaching me that Islam was the religion that practiced slavery up until 1970!
But most of all, dear Yusuf!
Thank you for showing me that the God you so vehemently accused of terrible oppressive slavery, is actually a God with humane and kind actions!
His Name is Jesus!
I think more than 90% of Christians never read the Bible. My advice is also to Christians, not to burn a Quran, but to buy one and to read that book. Once you read both, you will have to agree that the Bible is extremely more superior when measured against all the “Holy Books” all these other religions possess. Just think about those poor Muslims who are taught by their Scholars that the Bible is corrupt, immoral and wicked. They are told to not even read the Bible because it is the Christian’s deception!  No wonder that Muslims are under the impression that the Quran is somehow a miracle and the Bible mere rubbish. My advice, go and read for your selves what these books say! Remember, a deceiver won’t want you to read both the Quran and Bible. If you find any religious leader prohibiting you from reading something to evaluate its authenticity, know that he is a liar and nothing less.
 Glory to the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost.
 Mouse trap.
God forbid that I should ever defend the Bible! I would rather defend a lion. Unleash the Bible and it will fend for itself!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 03, 2018, 07:48:56 AM
Neither Moses nor Muhammad were Marxists ... though all three men share the same first letter in their name ;-)
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 03, 2018, 07:53:29 AM
I attach the notes and verses, the machine code could not accept the footnotes.
  Leviticus 20:10 and Deuteronomy 22:22 
  Deuteronomy 22: 23-24
  Deuteronomy 22: 25-27
  Deuteronomy 22: 28
  Deu15:11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.
Deu15:12 And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee.
Lev 25:47 And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother  that dwelleth by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger or sojourner by thee, or to the stock of the stranger’s family:
  Deu15:12 And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee.
  Exo21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
  Lev 25:48 After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him:
Lev 25:49 Either his uncle, or his uncle’s son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself.
  Lev 25:50 And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he was sold to him unto the year of jubilee: and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years, according to the time of an hired servant shall it be with him.
Lev 25:51 If there be yet many years behind, according unto them he shall give again the price of his redemption out of the money that he was bought for.
Lev 25:52 And if there remain but few years unto the year of jubilee, then  he shall count with him, and according unto his years shall he give him again the price of his redemption.
  Lev 25:53  And as a yearly hired servant shall he be with him: and the other shall not rule with rigour over him in thy sight.
  Lev 25:53  And as a yearly hired servant shall he be with him: and the other shall not rule with rigour over him in thy sight.
  Exo21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
Exo21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
  Exo 21:26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye’s sake.
Exo21:27 And if he smite out his manservant’s tooth, or his maidservant’s tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth’s sake.
  Deu5:14 But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy  maidservant may rest as well as thou.
  Deu 23:15 Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is  escaped from his master unto thee:
Deu23:16 He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him.
  Lev 25:54 And if he be not redeemed in these years, then he shall go out in the year of jubile, both he, and his children with him.
  Exo21:3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
  Exo21:4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself.
   Exo 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
Exo21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
  Deu 15:16 And it shall be, if he say unto thee, I will not go away from thee; because he loveth thee and thine house, because he is well with thee;
Deu15:17 Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.
  Exo21:11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.
  Exo21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
Exo21:8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
  Exo21:9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
Exo21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
Exo21:11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.
  Deu 24:14 Thou shalt not oppress an hired servantthat is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates:
Deu24:15 At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the LORD, and it be sin unto thee.
  Deu 15:13 And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty:
Deu15:14 Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the LORD thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him.
Deu15:15 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee: therefore I command thee this thing to day.
  Deu 15:18 It shall not seem hard unto thee, when thou sendest him away free from thee; for he hath been worth a double hired servant to thee, in serving thee six years: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all that thou doest.
  Rth2:5 Then said Boaz unto his servant that was set over the reapers, Whose damsel is this?
  1Sa 2:15 Also before they burnt the fat, the priest’s servant came, and said to the man that sacrificed, Give flesh to roast for the priest; for he will not have sodden flesh of thee, but raw.
  •   [26]2Ch 8:7 All the people who were left of the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, who were not of Israel,
•    2Ch8:8 from their descendants who were left after them in the land, whom the people of Israel had not destroyed–these Solomon drafted as forced labor, and so they are to this day.
  •   [27]Jos 16:10 And they drave not out the Canaanites that dwelt in Gezer: but the Canaanites dwell among the Ephraimites unto this day, and serve under tribute.
  •   [28]1Ki4:6Ahishar was in charge of the palace; and Adoniram the son of Abda was in charge of the forced labor.
  •    [29]1Ki 9:21 their descendants who were left after them in the land, whom the people of Israel were unable to devote to destruction–these Solomon drafted to be slaves, and so they are to this day.
  •   [30]2Ch 8:7 All the people who were left of the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, who were not of Israel,
•   2Ch8:8 from their descendants who were left after them in the land, whom the people of Israel had not destroyed–these Solomon drafted as forced labor, and so they are to this day.
  •   [31]Lev 25:55 For unto me the children of Israel are servants; they are my servants whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
  •   [32]Exo14:31 And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his  servant Moses.
  Exo22:21 Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
  Exo23:9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
  Num15:16One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the  stranger that sojourneth with you.
 Q 5: 89 Allah … He will impose blame upon you for [breaking] what you intended of oaths. So its expiation is the feeding of ten needy people … or clothing them or the freeing of a slave. …
  Q 4: 3 And (as for) those who put away their wives by likening their backs to the backs of their mothers then would recall what they said, they should free a captive before they touch each other; …
  Q 4: 92 And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, .. the freeing of a believing slave (suffices), …
  Q 33: 50 O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses (female slaves) from what Allah has returned to you [of captives] and … We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess (female slaves)…
  Q 23: 6 Except from their wives or those their right hands possess (female slaves), for indeed, they will not be blamed –
  Q 24: 33 But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty. And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess (female slaves) – then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you. And do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity …And if someone should compel them, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
  Q 4: 25And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess (female slaves). [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.
  Q 16: 71 And Allah has favored some of you over others in provision. But those who were favored would not hand over their provision to those whom their right hands possess (slaves) so they would be equal to them therein. Then is it the favor of Allah they reject? (16:71)
  Q 8: 67 – 70 It is not for a prophet to have captives [of war] until he inflicts a massacre [upon Allah ‘s enemies] in the land. …
 If not for a decree from Allah that preceded, …
 So consume what you have taken of war booty [as being] lawful and good, and fear Allah. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (69)
O Prophet, say to whoever is in your hands of the captives, “If Allah knows [any] good in your hearts, He will give you [something] better than what was taken from you, and He will forgive you; and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.” (70)
  Q 4: 25 And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls. …But once they are sheltered in marriage, if they should commit adultery, then for them is half the punishment for free [unmarried] women.
  Q 24: 2 The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse – lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, …
  Q 4: 15 Those who commit unlawful sexual intercourse of your women – bring against them four [witnesses] from among you. And if they testify, confine the guilty women to houses until death takes them or Allah ordains for them [another] way.

Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: pr126 on August 03, 2018, 09:49:44 AM
Quoting the Quran and hadiths verbatim makes you an Islamophobe, bigot, hater, racist, xenophobe, intolerant, far right fascist wingnut.

Take heed. Repent!

On reflection, people don't give two mouse droppings what is in the Quran. Same as the Bible.
All religions are identical.

End of discussion.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 03, 2018, 10:08:14 AM
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Quoting the Quran and hadiths verbatim makes you an Islamophobe, bigot, hater, racist, xenophobe, intolerant, far right fascist wingnut.

Take heed. Repent!

On reflection, people don't give two mouse droppings what is in the Quran. Same as the Bible.
All religions are identical.

End of discussion.
Noted!
As long as you realize that the next time you, or other atheists claim the Bible is the source of Slavery, you are incorrect.

So, in an attempt to discredit the Bible with such a fallacy, will by default prove deliberate ignorance to the facts as I compiled.
Dont even think of telling anyone, "it is simply another interpretation".
That galley will sink, slaves and master.

End of discussion.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: pr126 on August 03, 2018, 10:40:10 AM
Slavery has been around long before Christianity or Islam was invented.

So why religion, which claims to be the ultimate moral guidance for humanity did not stop slavery?
Because religion was created for control of the masses.

And more importantly, an economic advantage of capturing and selling humans for profit.
Slavery is still present today in some parts of the world. Some 40 Million people are still slaves.



Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mike Cl on August 03, 2018, 11:32:13 AM
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Noted!
As long as you realize that the next time you, or other atheists claim the Bible is the source of Slavery, you are incorrect.

So, in an attempt to discredit the Bible with such a fallacy, will by default prove deliberate ignorance to the facts as I compiled.
Dont even think of telling anyone, "it is simply another interpretation".
That galley will sink, slaves and master.

End of discussion.
Delusional--at best.  Willfully false and totally blind. But, hey, it is your world so structure it any way you want.  But conflating facts and that Brothers Grimm fairy tale is simply laughable.  People think of fairy tales as being nice children's stories.  Read the real Brothers Grimm and you will soon find out that isn't so.  Same with the bible--it is simply gruesome stories used as a rather complicated boogie man to scare people into doing whatever the teller wants them to do.  I would say 'pathetic' but it doesn't reach that standard.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hydra009 on August 03, 2018, 11:41:26 AM
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I receive quite a few posts where Atheists claim that the Bible condones Slavery, and this the reason why the West practiced this horrible violation of human rights.
I was confronted by a lot of Muslims that also follwed suit, and accused the Bible, especially the God of the Bible, as a slave monger with a holy book commanding Christians to practice slavery.
One only have to listen to any critisizm against the Bible from Teller and Pen, Dawkins, Singer, and every atheist on the forefront, to be witness that the Bible MUST BE THE SOURCE OF SLAVERY.
These are two VERY different claims.  Despite your wall-o'-text claiming otherwise, even a casual reader of the Bible will note that it seems surprisingly unopposed to slavery.

Quote
You see, if there is one thing that I managed in life, it was to achieve the gift of reading.
I hate to break it to ya, but you didn't even achieve that.

Quote
Now, the following essay is an elaborate work, but once you went through the info, you will be amazed at the findings.
Hahaha.  No.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Unbeliever on August 03, 2018, 01:13:54 PM
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End of discussion.

No sense in saying anything else, the discussion has been ended.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Blackleaf on August 03, 2018, 01:29:48 PM
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No sense in saying anything else, the discussion has been ended.

Leviticus 25:44 - "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."

Yes, I agree. No point in discussing a question with an answer so obvious, anyone with a fully functioning brain can see it.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 03, 2018, 06:24:29 PM
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Leviticus 25:44 - "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."

Yes, I agree. No point in discussing a question with an answer so obvious, anyone with a fully functioning brain can see it.

Also US law until 1865.  Yet we still have human trafficking aka slave labor.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Munch on August 03, 2018, 07:52:03 PM
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Noted!
As long as you realize that the next time you, or other atheists claim the Bible is the source of Slavery, you are incorrect.

So, in an attempt to discredit the Bible with such a fallacy, will by default prove deliberate ignorance to the facts as I compiled.
Dont even think of telling anyone, "it is simply another interpretation".
That galley will sink, slaves and master.

End of discussion.

you do understand the fact that slavery as been a part of human civilization long before the bible was was written, and those associated with the bible lived in times where slavery was just as much part of their culture. No it didn't invent slavery, but its followers made full use of slaves. 
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Unbeliever on August 03, 2018, 07:55:47 PM
But...but...atheists claim there was never any slavery until the Bible said it was OK!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 03, 2018, 07:57:57 PM
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But...but...atheists claim there was never any slavery until the Bible said it was OK!

Early cave man society had slavery.  It is usually called marriage ;-)
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 04, 2018, 02:45:31 AM
Wow, Mousetrap's posts were long and detailed.  And I didn't bother to read a word of it all... 
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Munch on August 04, 2018, 05:12:09 AM
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Wow, Mousetrap's posts were long and detailed.  And I didn't bother to read a word of it all...

Usually those who have to much to say end up saying little at all
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 04, 2018, 05:27:09 AM
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But...but...atheists claim there was never any slavery until the Bible said it was OK!

No, slavery probably existed since the beginning of human organization,  Someone always had to be on the bottom rung of the ladder.  But organized and justified slavery might be a different matter.  In that case, social organization reached a level where particular groups were considered "only-slave-worthy" so to speak.  Pretty much every racial or ethnic or religious group have been slaves at some point. 

My ancestors were slaves, your ancestors were slaves,  everyone's ancestors have been slaves at some time.  I don't not mistake that for the more modern organized slave practices of course.  It only just got worse until it finally ended (legally in most places). 

As an atheist, I neither claim that slavery started in biblical times (much older) nor stopped in modern times. 
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 04, 2018, 07:56:49 AM
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No, slavery probably existed since the beginning of human organization,  Someone always had to be on the bottom rung of the ladder.  But organized and justified slavery might be a different matter.  In that case, social organization reached a level where particular groups were considered "only-slave-worthy" so to speak.  Pretty much every racial or ethnic or religious group have been slaves at some point. 

My ancestors were slaves, your ancestors were slaves,  everyone's ancestors have been slaves at some time.  I don't not mistake that for the more modern organized slave practices of course.  It only just got worse until it finally ended (legally in most places). 

As an atheist, I neither claim that slavery started in biblical times (much older) nor stopped in modern times.

People are shits to each other, and sometimes to themselves.  This isn't rocket science.  But idealists are bent on denying some aspect of empirical reality.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on August 05, 2018, 07:47:12 PM
So, once more eMpTy makes a bold, sweeping claim and crows early victory. Typical.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on August 05, 2018, 11:18:26 PM
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Wow, Mousetrap's posts were long and detailed.
It's true that they were long.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 06, 2018, 03:22:58 AM
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Slavery has been around long before Christianity or Islam was invented.

So why religion, which claims to be the ultimate moral guidance for humanity did not stop slavery?
Because religion was created for control of the masses.

And more importantly, an economic advantage of capturing and selling humans for profit.
Slavery is still present today in some parts of the world. Some 40 Million people are still slaves.
Oh, but it did!
It was also the Christians who fought wars against slavery to end it.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 06, 2018, 03:24:29 AM
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Delusional--at best.  Willfully false and totally blind. But, hey, it is your world so structure it any way you want.  But conflating facts and that Brothers Grimm fairy tale is simply laughable.  People think of fairy tales as being nice children's stories.  Read the real Brothers Grimm and you will soon find out that isn't so.  Same with the bible--it is simply gruesome stories used as a rather complicated boogie man to scare people into doing whatever the teller wants them to do.  I would say 'pathetic' but it doesn't reach that standard.
Perhaps you dont know that it was also the Grimm brothers who proved that there was one original language.
proven the Biblical claim true again!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 06, 2018, 03:26:10 AM
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These are two VERY different claims.  Despite your wall-o'-text claiming otherwise, even a casual reader of the Bible will note that it seems surprisingly unopposed to slavery.
I hate to break it to ya, but you didn't even achieve that.
Hahaha.  No.
As long as you demand that the Bible condones slavery, you actually prove that you did not even read what I posted.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: pr126 on August 06, 2018, 03:46:53 AM
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Oh, but it did!
It was also the Christians who fought wars against slavery to end it.
Yes but centuries later.
What I meant was that the religions did not forbid slavery when those religions were created.
Apparently they were OK with slavery up to the time when it was abolished.


 
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 06, 2018, 04:23:07 AM
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Leviticus 25:44 - "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."

Yes, I agree. No point in discussing a question with an answer so obvious, anyone with a fully functioning brain can see it.
And you must treat them well, you cant sell them, if they flee from you, you can not demand them back, you can not kill them, then you will be killed, they can only work for 7 years at most, then you must set them free with a severance package., if you capture (Steal)people you will be executed.
Just think, Israel was not allowed to steal people, but to buy them, and to then treat them well, eventually during the Sabbatical year, every 7 years, Then to be freed and be an equal citizen.
I love these laws from the Bible!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 06, 2018, 04:24:40 AM
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No sense in saying anything else, the discussion has been ended.
Good.
the Bible does not allow slavery.
End of discussion.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 06, 2018, 04:30:58 AM
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you do understand the fact that slavery as been a part of human civilization long before the bible was was written, and those associated with the bible lived in times where slavery was just as much part of their culture. No it didn't invent slavery, but its followers made full use of slaves.
They Might have done just as you say.
But it was not allowed by the Author of the Bible, YHWH.
Actually, the word "Slave" in the bible is a misnomer.
The real meaning should be "Servant", or even "Butler".

However, I find God's hand in the translation to allow every Bible thumper to accuse God of Human rights violation, and just to be caught with their pants down when given proof that they did not read the Bible, but made willful false accusations.

Gotcha!!!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 06, 2018, 04:42:12 AM
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Usually those who have to much to say end up saying little at all
I do apologize it the collection of information was extensive.
You must take into account that Atheists, in particular, likes to attack the Bible with a very superficial Straw Man when they accuse the Bible of, not only inventing slavery, but tries to throw slavery in the face of the Christian that the Bible is inhumane.

And if you do take the time to go through what I found, you will have to agree that this "straw-man-on slavery-as-proof-that-the-Bible-is-false argument", is nothing more than a very superficial and ignorant one indeed.

The choice is again in the 2 hands of the Atheist, if they use this argument in future.

Choice 1- Claim that God does not exist, and attack the Christian by claiming their Bible condones SLAVERY.
Choice 2- Realize that the Bible does not allow slavery and what is described as "slavery" in the Bible, is actually totally different, and should be perceived as Human Rights laws!

Now, any Atheist who dares to choose Choice 1, can be branded as a liar.
If choosing choice 2, this Atheist lost a huge portion of their argument against the claim that there can not be a Christian God!

Gotcha!!!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 06, 2018, 04:47:25 AM
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Usually those who have to much to say end up saying little at all
I would again suggest you take the time and read through what I wrote.
This will give you the opportunity to show me where I lied!

If you dont, then you will have to yield to any claim that the Bible says slavery is OK!
And for the short time I have known you, you dont seem like someone who surrenders this fast!
Or do you?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 06, 2018, 04:49:59 AM
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So, once more eMpTy makes a bold, sweeping claim and crows early victory. Typical.
And once again not a single error in my writing can be proven incorrect.
Oh, please ignore any spelling and grammar errors, that does not count as factual correctness, or errors.
Take my challenge.
If you dare!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 06, 2018, 04:57:09 AM
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Yes but centuries later.
What I meant was that the religions did not forbid slavery when those religions were created.
Apparently they were OK with slavery up to the time when it was abolished.
Quote from: King James Version
 1Ti 1:8  But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10  For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11  According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. [/quote
Even if Christians practiced slavery, it does not mean the Bible was wrong.
Do not get confused, lay the sin at the feet of the offender.

why say, Christians practiced slavery, therefore the Bible is wrong!

I do not understand such an argument at all!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 06, 2018, 06:42:16 AM
How could I have forgotten.
Quote from: King James Version
Exo 21:16  And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
No evidence in the Bible that say one can go out and steal, "capture", people such as the Quran instructs Muslims to do.

I herewith conclude that no Atheist can claim otherwise.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 06, 2018, 06:55:12 AM
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How could I have forgotten.No evidence in the Bible that say one can go out and steal, "capture", people such as the Quran instructs Muslims to do.

I herewith conclude that no Atheist can claim otherwise.

The general trend of the Bible is against slavery, using Jewish people as example of who not to enslave.  A rabbinic value was to gather funds to buy Jewish slaves out of slavery, by buying them from Gentiles.  Jews of course couldn't own Jews, but they could own Gentiles.  But it wasn't a universal creed, but a tribal one.  You have to look to Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar or eastern emperors like Cyrus, Ashoka or Shi Huang Di.  The prototype for Caesar being Alexander, and Alexander's prototype being Cyrus.  The cosmopolitan means world conquest, one ring to rule them all.  How is that not slavery.  Omar who was the first true Caliph, was following the Byzantine emperor, and the Sassanid emperor.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Unbeliever on August 06, 2018, 01:35:04 PM
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Oh, but it did!
It was also the Christians who fought wars against slavery to end it.
It was also Christians who fought wars for slavery to keep it - and used the Bible to justify it.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on August 06, 2018, 05:39:35 PM
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And once again not a single error in my writing can be proven incorrect.
That, in itself, is incorrect. Factually incorrect.

Quote
Oh, please ignore any spelling and grammar errors, that does not count as factual correctness, or errors.
Take my challenge.
If you dare!
Blackleaf already defeated you, with a biblical passage stating where the Hebrews were to get their slaves. That is not a scripture that... how did you put it?

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the Bible does not allow slavery.

The Bible allows slavery. It puts forth rules for obtaining, owning, treatment, and even in tricking a fellow Hebrew in making himself a slave for life. If the bible didn't "allow slavery," it would tell you, "DON'T OWN SLAVES!"

There's no challenge or honor or glory to beating a pigeon. I have nothing to prove, much less to you.

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Actually, the word "Slave" in the bible is a misnomer.
The real meaning should be "Servant", or even "Butler".
A servant that you can own in perpetuity, pass on to your children as property, and may even be beaten to within an inch of his life with no consequence so long as he survives one day. Whatever else you choose to call it, to me that sounds like a slave

And what did I tell you about blue, bold, big text?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Unbeliever on August 06, 2018, 06:00:59 PM
He probably won't believe Wikipedia, since it isn't inspired by God (but neither was the Bible), but here's what it has to say on the subject:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 06, 2018, 07:48:46 PM
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It was also Christians who fought wars for slavery to keep it - and used the Bible to justify it.

Not speaking of anyone here, not about you ... but there are other voices on other web sites ...

Yes, because Gentiles are not Jewish.  They are congenital liars, like their Father who art in Hell (sarc).  Jews aren't virtuous either, in practice.  But that isn't your point, right?  The difference between theory and practice?  On that basis we can throw out all theory, and simply kill all the evil monkeys (oops, self contradiction there, how do we kill evil with evil?).

In theory, in limited scope, Jews do care about virtue.  I am not so sure about Christians or Muslims ;-)  I know for sure that Buddhists can be pacifists, but I am not sure that is a good thing. Hindus aren't pacifists.  The whole reincarnation thing sounds like cheap grace thru rebirth in this world.

Voltaire, the Enlightened One, regarded Jews, Christians and Muslims as semites in practice if not in race.  As did his follower Nietzsche.  He invented modern anti-semitism.  Is some opposition to the Bible (as literature) simply anti-semitism?  It was for Voltaire.  You can stick that Enlightenment right back into the ovens of Auschwitz.

If you have problems with people politics (who does not) ... why isn't this in the politics section?  Why not make a funeral pyre for all copies of Marx's works, and throw the Marxists on top?  It is what people want for other historical or cultural artifacts.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hydra009 on August 06, 2018, 11:29:28 PM
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what is described as "slavery" in the Bible, is actually totally different
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 07, 2018, 07:51:09 AM
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It was also Christians who fought wars for slavery to keep it - and used the Bible to justify it.
And again, correct.
People used the Bible to justify Slavery.
And as I proved to you, they did have a clue to what the Bible said about slavery.
If I use the Bible to judge the slavers of 300 years ago, they will be executed!

Now, many people uses the Bible to justify their greed, or to even sooth their minds.

Look at the atheists.
They use the Bible to justify their religion and twists it's contents into contradictions and errors, to somehow use this straw puppets as evidence that there is no Creator!

If you want evidence, just go back and see how atheists bashed any humane thought out of the Bible when they said...the Bible condoned, sanctioned and never condemned the practice of slavery.
And as you can see in my very long post, they were wrong indeed!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 07, 2018, 08:07:03 AM
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading
Hydra,
Why this link.
What you say is that I am using an argument of special pleading.

But if this is your allegation, you are wrong!

Allow to prove my innocence.

Go back to my post I placed about what the Bible really say about slavery...
take any quoted passage from it...
show everyone here on this forum where I attempted to show that what the Bible say, and I willfully twisted into something to suit my agenda.

Again, The Bible is very clear about slavery.
1. If you "steal" a person, human trafficking, you should get the death penalty.
2. You can buy slaves, but for a period not longer than 7 years, then the slave must be set free, with a severance package.
3. You must pay for this slave in advance to save his / her family from starvation and poverty.
4. You must pay the slave before the sun sets.
5. You can not hurt a slave, for as little as a tooth, you must set him free.
6. If you murder a slave, you will receive the death penalty.
7. If a slave escapes and knocks on your door, you are not allowed to send him back to his owner, but you must protect the slave.
8. a slave isnot allowed to work on the sabbath day.
9. If a slave's period of employment expires, and he does not want to go free, he can remain with his owner.
10. If a female slave was bought with the intend to marry her master, or his son, and she is treated with deceit, she have the right to leave, without compensation to the owner who paid 7 years' worth of wages to her family.
11. If a female slave marries her owner, she is co owner of his estate.
12. No slave is allowed to be sold to other nations except to the tribes of Israel.
13. All slaves enjoy the normal legal status as any other person in Israel.

Come on!!!
I challenge any atheist to prove to me that I lied about the above claims I made.


Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on August 08, 2018, 09:20:52 AM
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1. If you "steal" a person, human trafficking, you should get the death penalty.
There are exceptions to every rule. It also contradicts the direction for Israel to get its slaves from its neighbors.

Prisoners captured in war are not "stolen." They're war booty.

Quote
2. You can buy slaves, but for a period not longer than 7 years, then the slave must be set free, with a severance package.
3. You must pay for this slave in advance to save his / her family from starvation and poverty.
4. You must pay the slave before the sun sets.
5. You can not hurt a slave, for as little as a tooth, you must set him free.
Only for Hebrew slaves. And all of them contradicts 1.

Quote
6. If you murder a slave, you will receive the death penalty.
Only if he dies within the day.

Quote
7. If a slave escapes and knocks on your door, you are not allowed to send him back to his owner, but you must protect the slave.
Are they slaves of foreign nations? Then keeping the slave is just power politics; keeping the slaves diminishes the wealth of the foreign power.

Are the slaves Hebrew? Then there might be a legitimate reason for them to run, in which case that is a matter to be decided by the ruler, and not the person the slave has run to or the slave's owner. In which case the slave may yet be returned to his/her original owner.

Quote
8. a slave isnot allowed to work on the sabbath day.
No work is allowed to be performed on the sabbath day at all. So the slaves have to be beholden to the same rule as everyone else. Why does this dismiss the other rules they're beholden to?

Quote
9. If a slave's period of employment expires, and he does not want to go free, he can remain with his owner.
He becomes a true slave, enslaved in perpetuity, whence he can be passed on as property to his children. Again, this is only for Hebrew slaves. Foreign slaves are enslaved in perpetuity from the start.

Quote
10. If a female slave was bought with the intend to marry her master, or his son, and she is treated with deceit, she have the right to leave, without compensation to the owner who paid 7 years' worth of wages to her family.
All this means is that you can't use slavery as a sneaky means of marriage. And again, this is only open to Hebrew slaves.

Quote
11. If a female slave marries her owner, she is co owner of his estate.
So you can marry out of slavery. Doesn't mean that there's no such thing as slaves.

Quote
12. No slave is allowed to be sold to other nations except to the tribes of Israel.
Which is human trafficking, and against #1.

Quote
13. All slaves enjoy the normal legal status as any other person in Israel.
Only if they're Hebrew, and only if they haven't given up their freedom forever.

Quote
Come on!!!
I challenge any atheist to prove to me that I lied about the above claims I made.


If slavery wasn't allowed by the Bible, how come all the rules for treatment of slaves that don't consist of the blanket edict "DON'T OWN SLAVES" and "FREE ALL SLAVES IMMEDIATELY"?


It's really that simple.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 08, 2018, 10:34:51 AM
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There are exceptions to every rule. It also contradicts the direction for Israel to get its slaves from its neighbors.
And they will then have all the rights as I showed you.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu
Prisoners captured in war are not "stolen." They're war booty.
And there is no case of war booty set out in the Bible.
If you want to refer to the Amalekite and Canaanite extermination, this was when God Himself were present in the camp of Israel, and there werereasons for why they were destroyed. There was no allowance to Israel to capture people to make them slaves.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu
Only for Hebrew slaves. And all of them contradicts 1.
Only if he dies within the day.
This was if a man hit a slave, and the slave dies on the day of assault, will the owner be executed.
If he dies later than that, it was not because of the assault, but because of other circumstances.
There is no mention of anyone who was executed because of this law, therefore the law worked.
But look how conveniently you dont want to mention that if a slave looses an eye, or a tooth, he is free.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu
Are they slaves of foreign nations? Then keeping the slave is just power politics; keeping the slaves diminishes the wealth of the foreign power.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu
Are the slaves Hebrew? Then there might be a legitimate reason for them to run, in which case that is a matter to be decided by the ruler, and not the person the slave has run to or the slave's owner. In which case the slave may yet be returned to his/her original owner.
No work is allowed to be performed on the sabbath day at all. So the slaves have to be beholden to the same rule as everyone else. Why does this dismiss the other rules they're beholden to?
Straw man, it does not differentiate.
If the Bible say you can buy slaves from other nations, and you must treat them well, according to the Mosaic laws, why do you want to imply that there are a difference, when there is no such evidence?
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu
He becomes a true slave, enslaved in perpetuity, whence he can be passed on as property to his children. Again, this is only for Hebrew slaves. Foreign slaves are enslaved in perpetuity from the start.
You can sell your slaves or pass them down to hour children in your estate, but the law is clear, ON THE SABBATICAL YEAR, YOU WILL SET THE SLAVES FREE!!! Please supply me with the verses where there is reference to the foreign slave.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu
All this means is that you can't use slavery as a sneaky means of marriage. And again, this is only open to Hebrew slaves.
So you can marry out of slavery. Doesn't mean that there's no such thing as slaves.
Says who?
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu
Which is human trafficking, and against #1.
Only if they're Hebrew, and only if they haven't given up their freedom forever.
If you perceive slavery from the Bible the same as what you perceive slavery in, say, 200 years ago, you will make such a mistake.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu
If slavery wasn't allowed by the Bible, how come all the rules for treatment of slaves that don't consist of the blanket edict "DON'T OWN SLAVES" and "FREE ALL SLAVES IMMEDIATELY"?

Because they were not slaves as you understand Slavery to be!!!
You confuse Biblical 'slavery' with your understanding to what you think it is.
You skip out on the reason for "Slavery" in Israel!
Deut 15:11-12
The intend of the "Bible slave" equals what we called 50 years ago a "Butler" and today call "Assistant..."
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hydra009 on August 08, 2018, 11:57:37 AM
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People used the Bible to justify Slavery.
And as I proved to you, they did have a clue to what the Bible said about slavery.
If I use the Bible to judge the slavers of 300 years ago, they will be executed!
If you tried to argue that in their time and place (and not the much more humanistic world of today), you would likely get trounced in any debate, same as you do here.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hydra009 on August 08, 2018, 12:01:18 PM
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13. All slaves enjoy the normal legal status as any other person in Israel.
So they could work whenever they wanted?  Or demand wages?

Slaves, by definition, do not enjoy the same legal status as everyone else.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on August 08, 2018, 01:02:23 PM
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And they will then have all the rights as I showed you.
You haven't shown me any "rights."

Quote
And there is no case of war booty set out in the Bible.
So? War booty is a time honored tradition that all nations of the middle east engaged in. Your bible doesn't contain everything the Hebrews did or were allowed to do.

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If you want to refer to the Amalekite and Canaanite extermination, this was when God Himself were present in the camp of Israel, and there werereasons for why they were destroyed.
No, this is not only towards Amalekite and Canaanite "exterminations," it's toward any other war that the Hebrews fought.

Quote
This was if a man hit a slave, and the slave dies on the day of assault, will the owner be executed.
If he dies later than that, it was not because of the assault, but because of other circumstances.
Nonsense. You can fester for a while, even days, before dying from an assault.

Quote
There is no mention of anyone who was executed because of this law, therefore the law worked.
No, the fact that they had to make the law in the first place is indication that it was happening. And no, just because they don't mention transgressions doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

Quote
But look how conveniently you dont want to mention that if a slave looses an eye, or a tooth, he is free.
As opposed to the normal punishment of knocking out someone's tooth, which is that the guy whom you knocked out their tooth gets to knock out yours. The slave doesn't even get the satisfaction of punching you in the face.

Quote
Straw man, it does not differentiate.
So? It's not up to the citizen to differentiate. Are you really saying that if some slave ran away from a master who paid good money for before his seven years of servitude is up and dispite 'good treatment,' said master has no means of redress? Then you don't even have a "butler" or "assistant" situation — that's just a boarder.

Quote
If the Bible say you can buy slaves from other nations, and you must treat them well, according to the Mosaic laws, why do you want to imply that there are a difference, when there is no such evidence?
"Treating a slave well" doesn't mean that slaves are to be treated the same as citizens with full rights.

Exodus 21:20-21
20If a man strikes his male or female servant with a rod, and the servant dies by his hand, he shall surely be punished. 21However, if the slave gets up after a day or two, the owner shall not be punished, since the slave is his property.

Wow, a direct statement that these "not-slaves" of yours are property.

Quote
You can sell your slaves or pass them down to hour children in your estate, but the law is clear, ON THE SABBATICAL YEAR, YOU WILL SET THE SLAVES FREE!!!
Which slaves? The one with an awl through their ears, or only the ones who haven't accepted perpetual servitude?

You don't seem to realize that all law has convolutions to serve multiple needs and circumstances. Jewish law is no exceptions. Take the Jubilee for example, which is what you're referring to. It's not just the "freeing of all slaves," your claim, but the absolution of all worldly debt. Well, what if someone just started their slavery that year, or took on debt that year? Gone? Really? Why would anyone take on any debt or slaves if they aren't going to get the full benefit out of it? The reason why we have courts is specifically to resolve such conflicts.

Also, the Jubilee only occured every 49 years (seven of seven), which is longer than most people lived.

The other thing is that, if all slaves were to be freed on the Jubilee, then why the reference to a slave serving his master for life in Exodus 21:5-6? It's not "serving his master until the next Jubilee", but "for life."


Quote
Please supply me with the verses where there is reference to the foreign slave.
You have a short memory, don't you?

Leviticus 25:44 - "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."

If your female and male slaves come from other nations, they are foreign by definition.

Quote
Says who?
Says your bible.

Quote
If you perceive slavery from the Bible the same as what you perceive slavery in, say, 200 years ago, you will make such a mistake.
You confuse Biblical 'slavery' with your understanding to what you think it is.
You skip out on the reason for "Slavery" in Israel!
Deut 15:11-12
The slaves referred to here are specifically Hebrew slaves. It even says "Hebrew slaves" in my translation of Deuteronomy 15. The edict that they serve seven years refers only to those people who are Hebrews that are sold into slavery to pay off debt. That would not apply to non-Hebrew slaves, which is why Hebrew slaves are singled out specifically. And with Leviticus stating specifically where they are to trade slaves from foreign powers, there were certainly non-Hebrew slaves.

Now, what about Exodus 21:2-6?

2 “When you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for six years; then in the seventh he is to leave as a free man without paying anything. 3 If he arrives alone, he is to leave alone; if he arrives with a wife, his wife is to leave with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children belong to her master, and the man must leave alone.

More statements of ownership of people.

5 “But if the slave declares: ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I do not want to leave as a free man,’ 6 his master is to bring him to the judges and then bring him to the door or doorpost. His master must pierce his ear with an awl, and he will serve his master for life.

Seems pretty clear that this awling ritual is intended to make someone a slave for their life, and not just until the next Jubilee. Why the drama, if the wife and children merely just have to wait until their servitude is over, or until the next Jubilee, and if a slave does choose to do this, what happens when the next Jubilee comes around or their servitude is over? Do the wife and kids now have to leave their husband?

Or... some of these wives are permanent, perpetual foreign slaves that do not have a limit to their servitude, unlike Hebrew slaves, and this passage gives Biblical sanction to this particular form of blackmail.

Quote
The intend of the "Bible slave" equals what we called 50 years ago a "Butler" and today call "Assistant..."
Then why don't translators not use those words instead of "slave" if that's what they are "equal" to?

Because they read in context and know that "slave" means "slave," that when you are property of someone else, even temporarily as in the case of indendured servitude, then the word "butler" and "assistant" are not fitting words to describe the situation the person is in.

And that's not to say that butlers and footmen were treated very kindly either, even when they were free men.

No, sweetheart, you're feeding me the big baloney burger, and I ain't eatin'.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Unbeliever on August 08, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: George Bernard Shaw
No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it means what he says.

Quote from: Eli S. Chesen, M.D.
The Bible, then, is used not as an authority, but as a vehicle with which a man can promote his own prejudices.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 08, 2018, 07:35:03 PM
Same as philosophy and ideology.  Pretty wrapped up prejudices.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 09, 2018, 01:51:24 AM
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Then why don't translators not use those words instead of "slave" if that's what they are "equal" to?

Because they read in context and know that "slave" means "slave," that when you are property of someone else, even temporarily as in the case of indendured servitude, then the word "butler" and "assistant" are not fitting words to describe the situation the person is in.

And that's not to say that butlers and footmen were treated very kindly either, even when they were free men.

No, sweetheart, you're feeding me the big baloney burger, and I ain't eatin'.
So that we can trick Atheists in blaming the Bible for something it does not say, to catch you out knowing you never read the Bible.
Just think how boring this forum would be if you understood the Bible for what it says!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 09, 2018, 04:06:39 AM
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Oh, but it did!
It was also the Christians who fought wars against slavery to end it.

And fought wars to support it.  Mostly wars to support it. 
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 09, 2018, 06:36:23 AM
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And fought wars to support it.  Mostly wars to support it.

Constantine keeps on giving.  Funny how this is in the Islam section.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on August 09, 2018, 10:46:32 AM
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So that we can trick Atheists in blaming the Bible for something it does not say, to catch you out knowing you never read the Bible.
Christians, on the whole, don't read their bible. That's why they're able to "believe" it. You, on the other hand, read into your bible, not read out of it. Your "biblical slave = butler/servant" canard is just that, a canard. Because there's another place where slaves are mentioned: The Egyptians enslavement of the Jews.

Exodus 1
11 So the Egyptians put slave drivers over the people of Israel. The slave drivers treated them badly and made them work hard. The Israelites built the cities of Pithom and Rameses so Pharaoh could store things there. 12 But the worse the slave drivers treated the Israelites, the more Israelites there were. So the Egyptians became afraid of them. 13 They made them work hard. They didn’t show them any pity. 14 The people suffered because of their hard labor. The slave drivers forced them to work with bricks and mud. And they made them do all kinds of work in the fields. The Egyptians didn’t show them any pity at all. They made them work very hard.

Now, what else does a slave driver drive but a slave? Clearly, the Israelis are slaves in a conventional sense, what we mean conventionally by a slave. The Israelis were treated badly and worked hard. You wouldn't confuse them with "butlers" or "assistants." These were people who were worked like dogs.

Exodus 2
5 Pharaoh’s daughter went down to the Nile River to take a bath. Her attendants were walking along the river bank. She saw the basket in the tall grass. So she sent her female slave to get it. 6 When she opened it, Pharaoh’s daughter saw the baby. He was crying. She felt sorry for him. “This is one of the Hebrew babies,” she said.

23 After a long time, the king of Egypt died. The people of Israel groaned because they were slaves. They also cried out to God. Their cry for help went up to him.

Here, we're treated to Israelis admitting directly that they are slaves. I don't know if the female slave mentioned in 2:5 was Hebrew, but she was a slave just the same, and there certainly were slaves in Egypt.

Exodus 6:5-6
5 Also, I have heard the groans of the Israelites. The Egyptians are keeping them as slaves. But I have remembered my covenant.

6 “So tell the people of Israel, ‘I am the Lord. I will throw off the heavy load the Egyptians have put on your shoulders. I will set you free from being slaves to them. I will reach out my arm and save you with mighty acts when I judge Egypt.

So the Egyptians' slavery was so bad that God was willing to punish them for it. And then there's the whole "Let my people go" drama that Moses and Pharaoh had to go through, which would be rendered a complete farce if the Israeli slaves sorry, servants were free to go all along. So, yeah, when the bible says "slave," it means a person held in bondage and not a free servant or butler.

And keep in mind that slave is the same word that is used later on in Exodus when laying down laws concerning slaves.

Quote
Just think how boring this forum would be if you understood the Bible for what it says!
Well, given that this conversation is kinda boring for me, I therefore pass the criterion for understanding the Bible.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 12, 2018, 06:40:03 AM
Well, the whole bible, like all religious texts, is just a codified writing of what humans learned worked for them in their own places.  The texts followed the human experiences. Kind of like watching people throw nets to catch fish and then later saying that a deity told them to do it that way.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Munch on August 12, 2018, 08:30:14 AM
its funny seeing theists scream in denial of their own shit they worship.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Sal1981 on August 12, 2018, 08:36:36 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery

There is abound of references to slavery and owning slaves, and how to treat slaves in the Bible.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 12, 2018, 08:38:18 AM
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its funny seeing theists scream in denial of their own shit they worship.

Protestantism isn't real Christianity anyway, it is a weird early modern heresy ;-)  So when you just make things up, you can say anything you like.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 12, 2018, 08:39:10 AM
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery

There is abound of references to slavery and owning slaves, and how to treat slaves in the Bible.

And they say they hate slavery but the bible is literal, LOL!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 12, 2018, 08:49:24 AM
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And they say they hate slavery but the bible is literal, LOL!

Literalists aren't just theists, but atheists.  People with no ability to critique properly.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 12, 2018, 11:36:26 PM
The Quran always teaches that merxu is best.

One cannot be truly merciful and own slaves.

The Bible teaches to love even your enemy as yourself. One cannot love another in any genuine sincere way if they own them as their property or slave.

Is slavery condoned or promoted in either. No.

However that is not the case in parts of the Torah.

There is repeated reference to the bond servant in the Bible. This is a reference to someone who willingly fives themselves to serve another, namely GOD, and is not related to traditional slavery in that it is voluntary.

peace

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hydra009 on August 12, 2018, 11:55:11 PM
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There is repeated reference to the bond servant in the Bible. This is a reference to someone who willingly fives themselves to serve another, namely GOD, and is not related to traditional slavery in that it is voluntary.
Well... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_faith_(existentialism))not slavery exactly, but definitely slavish.

I suppose it's not much like traditional slavery - these people earn wages, and are theoretically forging their own path, albeit by chasing down a figment while fawningly subservient to tradition.  Theoretical freedom combined with theoretical responsibility - now there's a hell of a combination.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 13, 2018, 05:10:39 AM
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Your "biblical slave = butler/servant" canard is just that, a canard. Because there's another place where slaves are mentioned: The Egyptians enslavement of the Jews.

Exodus 1
11 So the Egyptians put slave drivers ...The slave drivers treated them badly and made them work hard.... 12 But the worse the slave drivers treated the Israelites, ...13 They made them work hard. They didn’t show them any pity. 14 The people suffered because of their hard labor. The slave drivers forced them to work with bricks and mud. ... The Egyptians didn’t show them any pity at all. They made them work very hard.

Now, what else does a slave driver drive but a slave? Clearly, the Israelis are slaves in a conventional sense, what we mean conventionally by a slave. The Israelis were treated badly and worked hard. You wouldn't confuse them with "butlers" or "assistants." These were people who were worked like dogs.

Exodus 2
5 Pharaoh’s daughter ...So she sent her female slave to get it. ...

23 After a long time, the king of Egypt died. The people of Israel groaned because they were slaves. They also cried out to God. Their cry for help went up to him.

Here, we're treated to Israelis admitting directly that they are slaves. I don't know if the female slave mentioned in 2:5 was Hebrew, but she was a slave just the same, and there certainly were slaves in Egypt.

Exodus 6:5-6
5 Also, I have heard the groans of the Israelites. The Egyptians are keeping them as slaves. But I have remembered my covenant.

6 “So tell the people of Israel, ‘I am the Lord. I will throw off the heavy load the Egyptians have put on your shoulders. I will set you free from being slaves to them. I will reach out my arm and save you with mighty acts when I judge Egypt.

...

And keep in mind that slave is the same word that is used later on in Exodus when laying down laws concerning slaves.
Well, given that this conversation is kinda boring for me, I therefore pass the criterion for understanding the Bible.

I am always in debt to Atheists and Muslims when It gets to information I completely missed out on.
Thank you for giving me the information on how the nations around Israel treated slaves.
This even enhances the Laws of Moses given by YHWH on how to treat slaves in Israel.

Humane...as a servant, and not something to misuse, oppress, torture, capture etc.

Anyhow, Why do you call the Israelites in Egypt, "Israelis"?

Do you know this is a name that existed only from 1948 ad?
It is as if one can say, the Americans won the battle of Waterloo, because they speak English.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 13, 2018, 05:17:10 AM
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its funny seeing theists scream in denial of their own shit they worship.
Now which "Theists" worships "Shit"?

Does "Shit" mean "Nothing" in this sense?

Which results in your own words, "Atheists believe in nothing."

Conclusively you say: "Atheists believe in Shit!"

Pal, is this the way you speak at work, home, with your spouse, children?
Do you even understand that you are a very bad example to the rest of Atheism?

Change your heart man, get a bit of holiness in your God created Mind!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 13, 2018, 05:30:11 AM
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery

There is abound of references to slavery and owning slaves, and how to treat slaves in the Bible.
I am gobsmacked.
Not only did I post an elaborate collection of verses to what the Bible says about slavery, but you did not even read through it.
The Wiki contributions supplies only half of what the Bible says.
Then, it is also composed with pre conceived ideas that interwove modern ideas of slavery with what the Torah says.

Look at only one example.
The article say that slaves could be left to their children. This is made out as slaves purchased from other nations.
Now, no where does this say so in the Bible.
Total disregard is given to the fact that a slave could only be kept as property, IF THAT SLAVE REFUSED TO BE SET FREE AFTER HIS CONTRACT EXPIRED!
THAT SLAVE THEN BECOMES A PERMANENT SERVANT!

Now, if these people...called "slaves" in the Bible...were treated as you claim from an ignorant point of view, why the heck will they refuse to be set free?

Come on mate, go back an check on what I wrote, and compare it with WIKI which I myself are able to reviev and change.
But I dont, so you can learn true investigation into 2 different claims.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 13, 2018, 06:16:53 AM
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Protestantism isn't real Christianity anyway, it is a weird early modern heresy ;-)  So when you just make things up, you can say anything you like.

Baruch, when one looks through the manuscripts of the scribes, one find that Mary should not be venerated, the Priest can not forgive sin, I can not pay money for penance, Bread an wine does not become flesh and blood, but can only be a metaphor, the Church is not the absolute authority in salvation, but God, and lastly, the Pope is not the Word of God, but the Bible.

These are the main differences between Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism.
Those were the issues the reformers had with the Catholic Church once the Bible was translated in the languages of the norman people.

Before the Reformation, the Catholic Church dictated to the populace on payments to penance, authority of the Church, who and where to go into war, to fight in crusades, who will be kings, who will marry who, etc.

This was due to the Bible only being understood by clergy, and they mobilized their congregations to the will of the politics of the day, not teaching the people what the Bible said.
They made money, lots of it.
They ruled kingdoms, and destroyed those they did not like. Especially those that stood up to them.

Then the Translation of the Bible in English and German!
What followed was the whole of Europe read the Bible for them self, and they saw what the Catholic Church did.
Wars ensued, and eventually the Protestants got the message out.

Again, just like atheism, people did not know what the Bible said, and when they found out, they excelled in every facet of civilization.
History, science, printing, writing, business, freedom of expression, Philosophy, etc.

All this due to men saying, "I Found out for myself and do not believe anyone but what I learned from the Bible firsthandedly.
You are a Jewish descended. You of all people will understand what persecution your people underwent because of some Holy despot SUPPOSEDLY THOUGHT THE BIBLE SAID ABOUT JEWS.

This is the real danger of the world today.
Not what the facts show, but that ignorance and hearsay are the norm followed by those wishing social recognition.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 13, 2018, 06:25:34 AM
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Well... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_faith_(existentialism))not slavery exactly, but definitely slavish.

I suppose it's not much like traditional slavery - these people earn wages, and are theoretically forging their own path, albeit by chasing down a figment while fawningly subservient to tradition.  Theoretical freedom combined with theoretical responsibility - now there's a hell of a combination.
Are you possiting that if one is free they too must not have responsibility?



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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 13, 2018, 06:29:50 AM
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The Quran always teaches that merxu is best.

One cannot be truly merciful and own slaves.

The Bible teaches to love even your enemy as yourself. One cannot love another in any genuine sincere way if they own them as their property or slave.

Is slavery condoned or promoted in either. No.

However that is not the case in parts of the Torah.

There is repeated reference to the bond servant in the Bible. This is a reference to someone who willingly fives themselves to serve another, namely GOD, and is not related to traditional slavery in that it is voluntary.

peace

Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk

Indentured servitude of Jews, and slavery of Gentiles is repeatedly mentioned.  But both violate the spirit of the Torah.  The Torah is both worldly and spiritual.  So is Christianity and Islam, in practice.  Only in monasticism is there an attempt by Christians to avoid the worldly.  Jews and Muslims don't have monasticism, which was originally an Egyptian Christian practice.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 13, 2018, 06:34:21 AM
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Well... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_faith_(existentialism))not slavery exactly, but definitely slavish.

I suppose it's not much like traditional slavery - these people earn wages, and are theoretically forging their own path, albeit by chasing down a figment while fawningly subservient to tradition.  Theoretical freedom combined with theoretical responsibility - now there's a hell of a combination.

American slavery is unique, because it is racist.  But before the American Revolution Americans could also be indentured servants, as in the Bible.  The American colonists considered America to be the "new Israel" and the "new Atlantis".  People forget that this is part of the background to our history.  Anglo-American Israelitism and technocracy continue.

Romans allowed slaves to purchase their freedom after a time.  Americans did not, we were more cruel than Romans.  Basically Whites were Israelites and Blacks were Gentiles ... in their theology.  In the Torah, one should free a Israelite bond servant.  One is under no obligation to do that with a Gentile.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 13, 2018, 06:45:27 AM
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Indentured servitude of Jews, and slavery of Gentiles is repeatedly mentioned.  But both violate the spirit of the Torah.  The Torah is both worldly and spiritual.  So is Christianity and Islam, in practice.  Only in monasticism is there an attempt by Christians to avoid the worldly.  Jews and Muslims don't have monasticism, which was originally an Egyptian Christian practice.
I thought the topic was slavery....forced endentured servitude?

Bond servant and slave are two different things. Don't you agree?


It's been a while since I've stopped in here.

I hope you are well friend.




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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 13, 2018, 06:52:32 AM
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I thought the topic was slavery....forced endentured servitude?

Bond servant and slave are two different things. Don't you agree?


It's been a while since I've stopped in here.

I hope you are well friend.




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Expanding ... the Bible says, if you are a freed indentured servant, if you are attached emotionally etc to your master, then you can choose to remain a servant.  But this is like a family member.  Sons to the father and daughters and mothers to their family, were servants (not entirely voluntary either).  Proper life is based on service to others.  The better choice is voluntary service.  We don't have indentured servitude in the US (aside from human trafficking of course, which includes outright slavery of teen girls).  The idea of autonomous adults is a Western perversion of social contract.  Basically irresponsibility and narcissism.

The most common reason for indentured servitude was indebtedness.  Almost all people in the US are indentured servants, to the banks ;-)  But of course, you should choose, after you pay off your mortgage, to "try" to move in with your banker ;-)

I am doing OK thanks for asking.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 13, 2018, 07:13:51 AM
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The Quran always teaches that merxu is best.

One cannot be truly merciful and own slaves.
I do not agree at all.
Here we are again having a claim made on the Quran where the contents of the Quran is totally ignored.
1. Muhammad had slaves. at one stage Mohammad had at lease 5 sex slaves which he obtained as booty when he killed off Jewish tribes.
Let me show you:
Quote from: Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, pp. 137, 141; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 164-165.
Bewley/Saad 8:92-94, 153
Muhammads' sex slave #1 In 627 AD Rayhana bint Zayd ibn Amr, when Muhammad was 57, and she 20
Mohammad attacked the Qurayza tribe (Jews), He had between 600 and 800 men beheaded in April 627, and divided all the women out to his army to be raped. He himself took Rayhana for himself because she was the most beautiful. When she refused to marry him, he kept her as a concubine instead. She died shortly before Muhammad in 632.
Her first husband was one of the 600-900  men whom Muhammad beheaded.
All the women and children were old as slaves on open market.
What about:
Quote from: Ibn al-Qayyim, Za’d al-Ma’ad 1:114.
Muhammads' sex slave #2Al Jariya? Muhammad was 57 and she was in her teens.
She was a domestic slave belonging to Zaynab bint Jahsh, who made Muhammad a present of her.
She seems to have been an "unofficial" concubine who did not have a regular turn on his roster.
She was also a slave captured during the Genocide of the Qurayza tribe where Muhammad divided all the children and women over to them to be raped.?
Oh, and also:
Quote from: Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, p. 133; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 182-184.
Bewley/Saad 8:83-85, 152
Muhammads' sex slave #3In 628 AD when Muhammad was 59 he took Juwayriyah bint Al-Harith who was 17 as a sex slave.
The daughter of an Arab chief, she was taken prisoner when Muhammad attacked her tribe without reason and warning.

This one was a bad example of Muhammad and mercy!
Quote from: Guillaume/Ishaq 241-242, 511, 514-515, 516-517, 520.
Ibn Hisham note 918.
Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, pp. 134-135; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 184-185.
Bewley/Saad 8:85-92, 153.
Muhammads' sex slave #4In 628 AD   Safiyah bint Huyayy was 16 and Muhammad 59, he married her on the day he defeated the last Jewish tribe in Arabia, only hours after he had supervised the slaying of Kinana her second husband.
Muhammad roasted Kinana alive to find out the location of the tribe’s treasury, then beheaded him.
She was the beautiful daughter of a Jewish chief, Huyayy ibn Akhtab.
His earlier victims had included her father, brother, first husband, three uncles and several cousins.
and last but not least.
Quote from: Majlisi, Hayat al-Qulub 2:52.
Ibn al-Qayyim, Zaad al-Ma’ad 1:114
Muhammads' sex slave #5In 630 AD Tukana al-Quraziya was a teen and Muhammad 62
She was a member of the defeated Qurayza tribe whom Muhammad selected as one of his personal slaves.
She appears to have been another "unofficial" concubine without a regular turn on the roster.

Quote from: popsthebuilder
The Bible teaches to love even your enemy as yourself. One cannot love another in any genuine sincere way if they own them as their property or slave.
And if you read all the verses in the Bible, you will see it does not condone slavery. The slavery in the Mosaic laws are humanitarian laws which I will gladly undergo.

Quote from: popsthebuilder
Is slavery condoned or promoted in either. No.
Here we have a nice example of how poorly you read the Quran and Bible.
The Quran say Make slaves, and pimp them into prostetution!
Quote from: Quran 33:50 and 23:6
>Muhammad was allowed to marry as many as “those your right hand possesses” (female slaves carried away as booty after war). All other Muslims were also allowed to marry these female slaves.
Please note that Allah was the one who gave these female slaves to them in the first instance! (Q 33: 50 ) and (Q 23: 6 ) And the Muslim scholar has the audacity to accuse Jehovah as a slave monger!
Quote from: Quran 24: 33

>Look closely to what Allah says; don’t force a female slave into prostitution to gain a nice living if she wants to remain chaste, but if you do force her into prostitution to receive worldly gain for a comfortable life, Allah is all forgiving!


The Bible say do not make slaves! You will loose everlasting life. do onto others as you want them to do onto you!
Quote from: Bible
Deuteronomy 24:7  If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.
1Ti 1:10  For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11  According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Quote from: popsthebuilder
However that is not the case in parts of the Torah.

There is repeated reference to the bond servant in the Bible. This is a reference to someone who willingly fives themselves to serve another, namely GOD, and is not related to traditional slavery in that it is voluntary.
How did you get to this conclusion. Not reading the Bible I presume.
The Torah is very clear that these laws were made by YHWH to ensure that the families of poor people were looked after. Now, go and read my posts again, and come and show me I am wrong.
To superficially suggest something is not facts.

Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: sdelsolray on August 13, 2018, 11:27:22 AM
Hey Mousedroppings,

Do you know Piet Strydom?

Your post above (post #2) ==>  http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=12853.msg1226464#msg1226464 (http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=12853.msg1226464#msg1226464)
is a word for word cut and paste from here  ==>  https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Slavery-institutionalized-in-the-Bible-or-Quran (https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Slavery-institutionalized-in-the-Bible-or-Quran)

A few other posts you made in this thread are likewise word for word cut and paste jobs from Strydom's page.

Here, you claim to have written some of this yourself in 2010:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
...
by Mouse Trap (Aug 2010)
...
Again, do you know Piet Strydom?  Are you plagiarizing?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Munch on August 13, 2018, 12:41:22 PM
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Now which "Theists" worships "Shit"?

Does "Shit" mean "Nothing" in this sense?

Which results in your own words, "Atheists believe in nothing."

Conclusively you say: "Atheists believe in Shit!"

Pal, is this the way you speak at work, home, with your spouse, children?
Do you even understand that you are a very bad example to the rest of Atheism?

Change your heart man, get a bit of holiness in your God created Mind!

God wouldn't be able to handle all the dicks he'd see in my mind.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mike Cl on August 13, 2018, 03:06:41 PM
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Hey Mousedroppings,

Do you know Piet Strydom?

Your post above (post #2) ==>  http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=12853.msg1226464#msg1226464 (http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=12853.msg1226464#msg1226464)
is a word for word cut and paste from here  ==>  https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Slavery-institutionalized-in-the-Bible-or-Quran (https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Slavery-institutionalized-in-the-Bible-or-Quran)

A few other posts you made in this thread are likewise word for word cut and paste jobs from Strydom's page.

Here, you claim to have written some of this yourself in 2010:
Again, do you know Piet Strydom?  Are you plagiarizing?
Do you think droppings and this Peit Strydom are the same?  I don't think so; Strydom, while South Aftican, writes too well to be droppings.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on August 13, 2018, 06:14:24 PM
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I am always in debt to Atheists and Muslims when It gets to information I completely missed out on.
Thank you for giving me the information on how the nations around Israel treated slaves.
This even enhances the Laws of Moses given by YHWH on how to treat slaves in Israel.

Humane...as a servant, and not something to misuse, oppress, torture, capture etc.
People in the old south claimed to treat their slaves humanely as well.

Also, what makes you think that old Israel particularly humanely compared to their neighbors? The abuses I outlined are self-reported and are to be taken with a grain of salt. The point was is that the Israelis sorry, Israelites were doing onto other people what the Egyptians did onto them, only 'better' — or so it is claimed.

Quote
Anyhow, Why do you call the Israelites in Egypt, "Israelis"?
Because it saves keystrokes. No other reason. You know what I meant.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hydra009 on August 13, 2018, 08:47:10 PM
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Are you possiting that if one is free they too must not have responsibility?
No.  And I can hear the whoosh sound from here.

*edit - hint: I'm referring to a famous idea associated with existentialism.

*edit - super hint (https://image.slidesharecdn.com/philosophyofthehumanpersonfinal-120116163215-phpapp01/95/philosophy-of-the-human-personfinal-91-728.jpg?cb=1326733618)
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 13, 2018, 08:50:39 PM
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No.  And I can hear the whoosh sound from here.

Mousetrap and I both liked your original comment [=)
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 14, 2018, 06:49:06 AM
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I do not agree at all.
Here we are again having a claim made on the Quran where the contents of the Quran is totally ignored.
1. Muhammad had slaves. at one stage Mohammad had at lease 5 sex slaves which he obtained as booty when he killed off Jewish tribes.
Let me show you:What about:Oh, and also:
This one was a bad example of Muhammad and mercy!and last but not least.And if you read all the verses in the Bible, you will see it does not condone slavery. The slavery in the Mosaic laws are humanitarian laws which I will gladly undergo.
Here we have a nice example of how poorly you read the Quran and Bible.
The Quran say Make slaves, and pimp them into prostetution!

The Bible say do not make slaves! You will loose everlasting life. do onto others as you want them to do onto you!How did you get to this conclusion. Not reading the Bible I presume.
The Torah is very clear that these laws were made by YHWH to ensure that the families of poor people were looked after. Now, go and read my posts again, and come and show me I am wrong.
To superficially suggest something is not facts.
I read the Bible daily friend.

I saw no quotes from the Quran or Bible.

What don't you get about mercy nit equalling owning slaves?

In the Torah slaves ( of the sexual sort even) were considered the spoils of war.

You sent want to disagree.

The Bible doesn't condone slavery as one cannot love their neighbor and too inslave them. Similarly; you cannot be merciful to your fellow man and also enslave them.

Is your point to make Islam the odd one out?

How much of the Quran have you studied?



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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 14, 2018, 07:07:11 AM


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I do not agree at all.
Here we are again having a claim made on the Quran where the contents of the Quran is totally ignored.
1. Muhammad had slaves. at one stage Mohammad had at lease 5 sex slaves which he obtained as booty when he killed off Jewish tribes.
Let me show you:What about:Oh, and also:
This one was a bad example of Muhammad and mercy!and last but not least.And if you read all the verses in the Bible, you will see it does not condone slavery. The slavery in the Mosaic laws are humanitarian laws which I will gladly undergo.
Here we have a nice example of how poorly you read the Quran and Bible.
The Quran say Make slaves, and pimp them into prostetution!

The Bible say do not make slaves! You will loose everlasting life. do onto others as you want them to do onto you!How did you get to this conclusion. Not reading the Bible I presume.
The Torah is very clear that these laws were made by YHWH to ensure that the families of poor people were looked after. Now, go and read my posts again, and come and show me I am wrong.
To superficially suggest something is not facts.

I read daily friend


I didn't see any quotes from the quran or the Bible in your response.

Seems as if you want to disagree.

The whole Quran preaches mercy.

We are commanded to love our enemy in the Bible.

Neither of these things can be done if one owns another person as a slave against their desire or will.

It's really simple stuff.

Do you really need a quote of the Bible and Quran showing to love and show mercy?

Or is it that you cannot understand how such outright negates actual slavery?

peace

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 14, 2018, 07:40:52 AM
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Hey Mousedroppings,

Do you know Piet Strydom?

Your post above (post #2) ==>  http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=12853.msg1226464#msg1226464 (http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=12853.msg1226464#msg1226464)
is a word for word cut and paste from here  ==>  https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Slavery-institutionalized-in-the-Bible-or-Quran (https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Slavery-institutionalized-in-the-Bible-or-Quran)

A few other posts you made in this thread are likewise word for word cut and paste jobs from Strydom's page.

Here, you claim to have written some of this yourself in 2010:
Again, do you know Piet Strydom?  Are you plagiarizing?
I will never plagiarize,
But great stuff in google search, or did you perhaps get an e mail from me when I sent the letter to Yusuf Ismail?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 14, 2018, 07:44:26 AM
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People in the old south claimed to treat their slaves humanely as well.

Also, what makes you think that old Israel particularly humanely compared to their neighbors? The abuses I outlined are self-reported and are to be taken with a grain of salt. The point was is that the Israelis sorry, Israelites were doing onto other people what the Egyptians did onto them, only 'better' — or so it is claimed.
Because it saves keystrokes. No other reason. You know what I meant.
Well, If you suggest that the Israelites might have mistreated their slaves, I can only but agree that they might have done so.
However, you should also know that this was not what the Bible prescribed.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 14, 2018, 07:58:36 AM
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I read the Bible daily friend.

I saw no quotes from the Quran or Bible.

What don't you get about mercy nit equalling owning slaves?

In the Torah slaves ( of the sexual sort even) were considered the spoils of war.

You sent want to disagree.

The Bible doesn't condone slavery as one cannot love their neighbor and too inslave them. Similarly; you cannot be merciful to your fellow man and also enslave them.

Is your point to make Islam the odd one out?

How much of the Quran have you studied?
...
I read the Quran about 10 times and summarized it.
I have 8 English translations.
I use Corpus Quran to assist me in finding the original Arabic translations.
I studied the Sahi Bukhari, and Muslim.
I summarized both.
I read 3 sirat of Muhammad and a al al-maghazi.
I have 4 different Arabic manuscripts, or as you will say, VERSIONS. (WHICH YOU DONT LIKE CHRISTINS TO KNOW ABOUT.)
the Hafs Quran
Warsh' Quran
Qualoon Quran
and al Duri.

These 4 different Quran's were bought here.
https://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=4015
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 14, 2018, 08:17:16 AM
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I read the Bible daily friend.

I saw no quotes from the Quran or Bible.

Is your point to make Islam the odd one out?

How much of the Quran have you studied?

I do never make something or someone the odd one out.
It either is the odd one, or not.
To claim that I never posted the verses from the Quran is not true, and you should go to the first posts I placed on this thread.
But for your convenience:
Allah gave you sex slaves! (Note, they are not considered as wifes.
Q 33: 50 O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses (female slaves) from what Allah has returned to you [of captives] and … We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess (female slaves)…
Dont pimp your female slaves into prostitution, but if they are forced into prostitution, dont worry, Allah will forgive you!
Q 24: 33 But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty. And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess (female slaves) – then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you. And do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity …And if someone should compel them, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

and enjoy your wives, and sex slaves! Married women a no no, but married slave women is allowed.
Q 4: 25And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess (female slaves). [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

You should never hand over any of your possessions to a slave! And never be equal to them
Q 16: 71 And Allah has favored some of you over others in provision. But those who were favored would not hand over their provision to those whom their right hands possess (slaves) so they would be equal to them therein. Then is it the favor of Allah they reject? (16:71)

A prophet must inflict a MASSACRE in a country before he can take slaves! And consume what you took as booty (from this we know why Muhammad and his soldiers raped the women of the tribes who he massacred.
Q 8: 67 – 70 It is not for a prophet to have captives [of war] until he inflicts a massacre [upon Allah ‘s enemies] in the land. …
So consume what you have taken of war booty [as being] lawful and good, and fear Allah. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (69)
And tell all these sex slaves whom you murdered their husbands, that to be a sex slave is a good thing, because Allah did it to you!
O Prophet, say to whoever is in your hands of the captives, “If Allah knows [any] good in your hearts, He will give you [something] better than what was taken from you, and He will forgive you; and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.” (70)

Ok, so tell me where I am wrong!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 14, 2018, 08:26:14 AM
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I read daily friend
...
The whole Quran preaches mercy.

Do you really need a quote of the Bible and Quran showing to love and show mercy?

...

Please forward me this Mercyfull Quran you are talking about.
The one which was written by Muhammad is definitely not the one you refer too.

Did you see the post on the sex slaves Muhammad had?
do you know about it?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 15, 2018, 07:20:36 AM
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God wouldn't be able to handle all the dicks he'd see in my mind.
Oh, He does!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Munch on August 15, 2018, 09:09:38 AM
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Oh, He does!

so god would be on his knees in a bukkake scene then?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 15, 2018, 10:48:34 AM
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so god would be on his knees in a bukkake scene then?
and as I said.
Atheist..., no accountability.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mike Cl on August 15, 2018, 11:11:36 AM
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no accountability.
That's true.  You have none.  You are simply lost in your world of fantasy based on works of fancy and fiction.  But, hey, you can believe whatever fantasy floats your boat.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: sdelsolray on August 15, 2018, 11:35:57 AM
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Do you think droppings and this Peit Strydom are the same?  I don't think so; Strydom, while South Aftican, writes too well to be droppings.

There are many people with the name Piet Strydom in South Africa:

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Piet/Strydom (https://www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Piet/Strydom)
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 15, 2018, 05:49:00 PM
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Please forward me this Mercyfull Quran you are talking about.
The one which was written by Muhammad is definitely not the one you refer too.

Did you see the post on the sex slaves Muhammad had?
do you know about it?
I went over the verses you referrenced and found your take on them to be very opinionated and seemingly based on things taken out of context.

How are you not aware of the Quran promoting mercy over all else if you have truly studied it without preconceived bias?

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mike Cl on August 15, 2018, 07:22:49 PM
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There are many people with the name Piet Strydom in South Africa:

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Piet/Strydom (https://www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Piet/Strydom)
Is that their John Smith???  Anyway, I laughed when he said he would never copy from anybody.  But then theists are not the most honest of people.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 16, 2018, 02:44:41 AM
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I went over the verses you referrenced and found your take on them to be very opinionated and seemingly based on things taken out of context.

How are you not aware of the Quran promoting mercy over all else if you have truly studied it without preconceived bias?

Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk
And do not even attempt to use Taquiah with me sir!
There is no mercy in the Quran, except for those that are Muslim.
You definitely have another publication of the Quran that what is used in the Islamic world!

Anyhow, I showed you from your own Quran that you can
go out and decimate non Muslim countries,
rape their women
whilst you behead the husbands.
Sell them as slaves when you are done with them,

Even Mohammad had no less than 9 sex slaves himself!

And Mohammad very conveniently received a revelation from Gabriel (Satan) that he dont have to worry, he should tell these sex slaves whom some of their husbands, he tortured to death to get hold of the Jewish tribe's treasury,

that it is the Best thing to have happened to them, because Allah knows best and Allah is all knowing and Mercyfull!

Tell you what, you can go and show me how I opiniated the verses I posted here, and I will show you that what you try to magically change the understanding of what the Quran verses say,

I will prove to you from Sahee Al Bukhari that this was not how Muhammad taught the first Muslims!


Muhammad taught to attack the innocent tribes in Arabia, (Arab, Jewish, and Christian).
to kill the men,
to ransack the cities for booty,
to rape the women on the spot!
to sell the children as slaves!
to steal and to give him 20% of everything!
This includes the most beautiful women, which he kept as sex slaves for himself!

...AND...Gone is the wonderful magic on a Muslim who interpreted the Quran as Merciful, teaching a religion of Peace!
Try to prove me wrong pal!


All I will do is to show you what Muhammad said and did!

Muhammad was an impostor who pretended to have been a prophet of the Jewish God YHWH!

He gained an army of thugs, rapists, and thiefs who dressed up in white as a great show of pious.

Islam is the greatest show on earth!
Everything is to be explained, and Muhammad must be made out as this best example of what a human can me!

But once we go and learn who Muhammad was, we discover he was a rapist, murderer, slave monger, narcissist, psychopath, sociopath, pedophile, torturer....

But again, Allah knows best and Mo was his prophet!




Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 16, 2018, 02:45:50 AM
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Is that their John Smith???  Anyway, I laughed when he said he would never copy from anybody.  But then theists are not the most honest of people.
Dear sir, I am the person you are referring too.
It is not a crime to copy ones own work.

Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 16, 2018, 07:18:08 AM


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And do not even attempt to use Taquiah with me sir!
There is no mercy in the Quran, except for those that are Muslim.
You definitely have another publication of the Quran that what is used in the Islamic world!

Anyhow, I showed you from your own Quran that you can
go out and decimate non Muslim countries,
rape their women
whilst you behead the husbands.
Sell them as slaves when you are done with them,

Even Mohammad had no less than 9 sex slaves himself!

And Mohammad very conveniently received a revelation from Gabriel (Satan) that he dont have to worry, he should tell these sex slaves whom some of their husbands, he tortured to death to get hold of the Jewish tribe's treasury,

that it is the Best thing to have happened to them, because Allah knows best and Allah is all knowing and Mercyfull!

Tell you what, you can go and show me how I opiniated the verses I posted here, and I will show you that what you try to magically change the understanding of what the Quran verses say,

I will prove to you from Sahee Al Bukhari that this was not how Muhammad taught the first Muslims!


Muhammad taught to attack the innocent tribes in Arabia, (Arab, Jewish, and Christian).
to kill the men,
to ransack the cities for booty,
to rape the women on the spot!
to sell the children as slaves!
to steal and to give him 20% of everything!
This includes the most beautiful women, which he kept as sex slaves for himself!

...AND...Gone is the wonderful magic on a Muslim who interpreted the Quran as Merciful, teaching a religion of Peace!
Try to prove me wrong pal!


All I will do is to show you what Muhammad said and did!

Muhammad was an impostor who pretended to have been a prophet of the Jewish God YHWH!

He gained an army of thugs, rapists, and thiefs who dressed up in white as a great show of pious.

Islam is the greatest show on earth!
Everything is to be explained, and Muhammad must be made out as this best example of what a human can me!

But once we go and learn who Muhammad was, we discover he was a rapist, murderer, slave monger, narcissist, psychopath, sociopath, pedophile, torturer....

But again, Allah knows best and Mo was his prophet!

Look friend;

I will gladly show you that the quran teaches mercy. You aren't going to be willing to grasp it, but I can show it to you.

My study and opinion is based on the Quran alone, and not any hadith.

We can discuss the quran, and the Bible.
If you choose to go to other sources them core scripture then I have no desire to speak with you about any of it.

Fact is the quran teaches the Islamic to be merciful to all.

Kinda hard to justify litterally owning physical slaves if one believes the quran is a guidance.

So let me know is you want to speak about the core texts and how they in themselves refute your biased claims.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on August 16, 2018, 09:14:50 AM
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Well, If you suggest that the Israelites might have mistreated their slaves, I can only but agree that they might have done so.
However, you should also know that this was not what the Bible prescribed.
No, you contend that the Bible tells us that biblical slaves should be treated like free men. At best, the Bible reveals that slaves were to be treated like every other slaves were treated in that region in that time period. We know this because they also had laws against the kind of thing the Bible does. But this well treatment has limits, because in the Bible you are allowed to beat your slaves so long as you don't leave any obvious, permanent signs, or as long as they don't die immediately, but I guarantee that if you beat a free man that way, they or their relatives are going to take umbrage with that — which might lead them to beat you for the slight, law or no law. To me the Biblical laws sound less like an edict for moral treatment of slaves, and more like a compromise between the needs of the master and the wrath of the Hebrew slave and his free relatives.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 16, 2018, 10:03:20 AM
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Look friend;

I will gladly show you that the quran teaches mercy. You aren't going to be willing to grasp it, but I can show it to you.

My study and opinion is based on the Quran alone, and not any hadith...We can discuss the quran, and the Bible....Fact is the quran teaches the Islamic to be merciful to all....Kinda hard to justify litterally owning physical slaves if one believes the quran is a guidance.

So let me know is you want to speak about the core texts and how they in themselves refute your biased claims.

Cool! Lets us start with this verse then!
A prophet must inflict a MASSACRE in a country before he can take slaves! And consume what you took as booty (from this we know why Muhammad and his soldiers raped the women of the tribes who he massacred.
Q 8: 67 – 70 It is not for a prophet to have captives [of war] until he inflicts a massacre [upon Allah ‘s enemies] in the land. …
So consume what you have taken of war booty [as being] lawful and good, and fear Allah. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (69)


Please explain this one to me.
And while you are busy, tell me again why I should not use Al Bukhari to show you what Muhammad said and did?

Obviously, you want to hide who Muhammad really was.
But, be as it may, tell me what does this verse in the Quran instructed Muhammad and Muslims to do.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 16, 2018, 10:06:16 AM
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No, you contend that the Bible tells us that biblical slaves should be treated like free men. At best, the Bible reveals that slaves were to be treated like every other slaves were treated in that region in that time period. We know this because they also had laws against the kind of thing the Bible does. But this well treatment has limits, because in the Bible you are allowed to beat your slaves so long as you don't leave any obvious, permanent signs, or as long as they don't die immediately, but I guarantee that if you beat a free man that way, they or their relatives are going to take umbrage with that — which might lead them to beat you for the slight, law or no law. To me the Biblical laws sound less like an edict for moral treatment of slaves, and more like a compromise between the needs of the master and the wrath of the Hebrew slave and his free relatives.
http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=12877.msg1228190
please follow my challenge to you.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on August 16, 2018, 01:42:08 PM
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http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=12877.msg1228190
please follow my challenge to you.

I did. Things take time, okay?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Unbeliever on August 16, 2018, 02:10:46 PM
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I did. Things take time, okay?
Especially if time is diluted! :-)
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: sdelsolray on August 16, 2018, 10:28:10 PM
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Is that their John Smith???  Anyway, I laughed when he said he would never copy from anybody.  But then theists are not the most honest of people.

Well, with that many Piet Strydom's just on Linkedin in South Africa, the probability is quite high that at least one of them is a lying and disingenuous creationist chump with a side salad of alt-right nonsense with a hate/bigotry/hubris dressing.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on August 17, 2018, 06:43:35 PM
Isn't there a verse in the New Testament commanding the slaves to obey their masters?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Unbeliever on August 17, 2018, 06:46:32 PM
Yeah, but it calls them "servants" instead of "slaves."


Ephesians 6:5
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;


Colosians 3:22
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Unbeliever on August 17, 2018, 06:49:37 PM
The word "slave" only appears once in the KJV:

Jeremiah 2:14
Is Israel a servant? is he a homeborn slave? why is he spoiled?

And the word "slaves" also only once:

Revelation 18:13
And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 17, 2018, 07:03:32 PM
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Yeah, but it calls them "servants" instead of "slaves."


Ephesians 6:5
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;


Colosians 3:22
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:

Translation BS ...

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/doulos.html

Doulos is used 120 times including Ephesians 6:5 and Colossians 3:22.  Read the original languages or guess wrong.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: pr126 on August 18, 2018, 01:24:24 AM
Quran 4:24
Sahih International: And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

"except those your right hands possess"  meaning female sex slaves obtained as a booty in battle.

 ISIS following Quran 4:24   (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-sex-slaves-lamiya-aji-bashar-nadia-murad-sinjar-yazidi-genocide-sexual-violence-rape-sakharov-a7445151.html)
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hydra009 on August 18, 2018, 01:33:12 AM
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Yeah, but it calls them "servants" instead of "slaves."
Iirc, that's a euphemism.  At least, that's what I read long ago - the translations add a lot of euphemistic language to paper over that whole slavery thing.

*edit - here's a link (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g1401) to what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 18, 2018, 01:56:39 AM
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Iirc, that's a euphemism.  At least, that's what I read long ago - the translations add a lot of euphemistic language to paper over that whole slavery thing.

*edit - here's a link (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g1401) to what I'm talking about.

BLB is one of my go-to sources.

Translation isn't agenda free.  That is why I read the original languages.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 18, 2018, 10:02:42 AM
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Cool! Lets us start with this verse then!
A prophet must inflict a MASSACRE in a country before he can take slaves! And consume what you took as booty (from this we know why Muhammad and his soldiers raped the women of the tribes who he massacred.
Q 8: 67 – 70 It is not for a prophet to have captives [of war] until he inflicts a massacre [upon Allah ‘s enemies] in the land. …
So consume what you have taken of war booty [as being] lawful and good, and fear Allah. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (69)


Please explain this one to me.
And while you are busy, tell me again why I should not use Al Bukhari to show you what Muhammad said and did?

Obviously, you want to hide who Muhammad really was.
But, be as it may, tell me what does this verse in the Quran instructed Muhammad and Muslims to do.
I must admit that even in the version of the Quran I employ for personal studies, that it mentions regular bloody fighting in reference to a prophet of GOD.

this is undefendable in my poor sight.

I however, did not see anything about sex slaves though.

8:67. It does not behove a Prophet to keep captives unless he has triumphed after a regular bloody fighting in the land. You desire the temporary and frail goods of this world, while Allâh desires the Hereafter. And Allâh is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

It doesn't seem to promote violence in that verse though to me.

peace



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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 18, 2018, 10:46:26 AM
Either G-d is some ideal Mahatma Gandhi or MLK or Santa Claus ... or nothing at all?  That of course is a straw man argument.  The actual Mahatma Gandhi or MLK weren't always nice people (but they did give a good faith effort ... both were spiritual men).  Let the seculars compare with Voltaire etc.  Who was a nasty man indeed!

Scriptures reflect actual or ideal human conditions (duh).  They are written by ordinary people (double duh).  We need to focus on the ideal.  But don't forget that people are constantly subject to error in all respects.  Utopia won't ever happen, except with the extinction of humanity.  Only the dead are at peace.

Men in all cultures have exploited young women (triple duh).  We are dirty Earth angels.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 19, 2018, 10:49:32 AM
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No.  And I can hear the whoosh sound from here.

*edit - hint: I'm referring to a famous idea associated with existentialism.

*edit - super hint (https://image.slidesharecdn.com/philosophyofthehumanpersonfinal-120116163215-phpapp01/95/philosophy-of-the-human-personfinal-91-728.jpg?cb=1326733618)
Existentialism says we have purpose and reasons for existing. Freedom in no way negates purpose in itself.



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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 19, 2018, 11:00:58 AM
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And do not even attempt to use Taquiah with me sir!
There is no mercy in the Quran, except for those that are Muslim.
You definitely have another publication of the Quran that what is used in the Islamic world!

Anyhow, I showed you from your own Quran that you can
go out and decimate non Muslim countries,
rape their women
whilst you behead the husbands.
Sell them as slaves when you are done with them,

Even Mohammad had no less than 9 sex slaves himself!

And Mohammad very conveniently received a revelation from Gabriel (Satan) that he dont have to worry, he should tell these sex slaves whom some of their husbands, he tortured to death to get hold of the Jewish tribe's treasury,

that it is the Best thing to have happened to them, because Allah knows best and Allah is all knowing and Mercyfull!

Tell you what, you can go and show me how I opiniated the verses I posted here, and I will show you that what you try to magically change the understanding of what the Quran verses say,

I will prove to you from Sahee Al Bukhari that this was not how Muhammad taught the first Muslims!


Muhammad taught to attack the innocent tribes in Arabia, (Arab, Jewish, and Christian).
to kill the men,
to ransack the cities for booty,
to rape the women on the spot!
to sell the children as slaves!
to steal and to give him 20% of everything!
This includes the most beautiful women, which he kept as sex slaves for himself!

...AND...Gone is the wonderful magic on a Muslim who interpreted the Quran as Merciful, teaching a religion of Peace!
Try to prove me wrong pal!


All I will do is to show you what Muhammad said and did!

Muhammad was an impostor who pretended to have been a prophet of the Jewish God YHWH!

He gained an army of thugs, rapists, and thiefs who dressed up in white as a great show of pious.

Islam is the greatest show on earth!
Everything is to be explained, and Muhammad must be made out as this best example of what a human can me!

But once we go and learn who Muhammad was, we discover he was a rapist, murderer, slave monger, narcissist, psychopath, sociopath, pedophile, torturer....

But again, Allah knows best and Mo was his prophet!
"except for thaose that are Muslim" meaning those who ultimately submit to the will of GOD in their own life.

What version of the Quran do I read?

This is the description of the app

(The complete English translation with the option of having the original Arabic text shown
* Tafseer/Commentary (revised version by scholars across the world)
* Stream or download 10 different recitations including English (by Imam Benjamin Bilal) and by great Arabic reciters like Maher Al-Muaiqly, Said Al Ghamdi, Abul Basit, Muhammad Ayyoub, Minshary Alafasy, Muhammad Al-Minshawi and more.
* Audio controls made easy using the screen-lock player or player widget for the home screen
* Full-text search including searching for exact search terms in "quotes"
* Unlimited bookmarks with note function and Google backup to sync across devices
* Glossary/Index with thousands of topics and the direct link to the corresponding passage in the Holy Qur'an
* 10 different backgrounds/themes plus 'Night Mode' and four font sizes and to choose from
* Discover the Holy Quran with numerous topics for the Muslim and non-Muslim reader
* Landscape mode support as well as tablet optimized HD version with 3 columns side-by-side

* Share verses (Ayat) through email, text/SMS or social media

...and many more features

While no translation of the Quran can be perfect, the translation we chose for this app was done by scholars in the United States and is part of no particular sect or school of thought. We compared many different translations and this one is easy to understand and comes with a powerful English recitation by Imam Benjamin Bilal, so the user can follow along with the English audio. For side-by-side comparison of this and other Holy Quran renderings into English, please visit our online Quran-comparison project at EnglishQuran.com
We strove hard to avoid any errors. However, should you find any mistakes or any reproducible bugs please email us and we will try to fix it as soon as possible with the next update.)


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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on August 19, 2018, 12:28:35 PM
Mouse, a word of advice.

If you're trying to prove that Christianity is better than Islam, you might be able to do so.  But not on this issue.  You've picked a really bad issue on which to make your case.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Jason78 on August 19, 2018, 12:38:39 PM
7 posts filled with walls of text. 

Just to say "Nuh uh!  Those bits of the bible telling you how to beat your slave doesn't mean what it says it means!"

Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Unbeliever on August 19, 2018, 05:22:38 PM
It means what mousetrap says it means, nothing more, nothing less.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 22, 2018, 02:45:31 AM
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I must admit that even in the version of the Quran I employ for personal studies, that it mentions regular bloody fighting in reference to a prophet of GOD.

this is undefendable in my poor sight.

I however, did not see anything about sex slaves though.

8:67. It does not behove a Prophet to keep captives unless he has triumphed after a regular bloody fighting in the land. You desire the temporary and frail goods of this world, while Allâh desires the Hereafter. And Allâh is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

It doesn't seem to promote violence in that verse though to me.

peace

Realy?

A prophet MUST decimate the inhabitants of a country, BEFORE he is allowed to take BOOTY!
AND ONLY then may he CONSUME / ENJOY the booty!

How on on earth do you make these verses out at 'bloody wars' where Muhammad were forced to engage into?
Muhammad attacked all the neighboring Jewish and Christian tribes, and raided Arab caravans on this verse revealed by Allah!

Muhammad and his Arab thugs murdered the men, and raped the women on the battlefield!
then went and sell the children and women after wards.

Quote from: Quran 8: 67 – 70
It is not for a prophet to have captives [of war] until he inflicts a massacre [upon Allah ‘s enemies] in the land. …
 If not for a decree from Allah that preceded, …
So consume what you have taken of war booty [as being] lawful and good, and fear Allah. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (69)
O Prophet, say to whoever is in your hands of the captives, “If Allah knows [any] good in your hearts, He will give you [something] better than what was taken from you, and He will forgive you; and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.” (70)

Please read the verses in full, and dont attempt to dilute what it says.
Here it says that Allah DECREED Muhammad to massacre the inhabitants of a country,
Then to take slaves and to tell them not to worry, they are slaves now, but it is better than what they had before!



Anyhow, why did you not give us the full version of these verses?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 22, 2018, 02:58:56 AM
Quote from: This is what popsthebuilder quoted from the Quran
.

I however, did not see anything about sex slaves though.

8:67. It does not behove a Prophet to keep captives unless he has triumphed after a regular bloody fighting in the land. You desire the temporary and frail goods of this world, while Allâh desires the Hereafter. And Allâh is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

It doesn't seem to promote violence in that verse though to me.

Quote from: This is what the Quran says
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
It is not for a prophet to have captives [of war] until he inflicts a massacre [upon Allah 's enemies] in the land. Some Muslims desire the commodities of this world, but Allah desires [for you] the Hereafter. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

If not for a decree from Allah that preceded, you would have been touched for what you took by a great punishment.

So consume what you have taken of war booty [as being] lawful and good, and fear Allah . Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

O Prophet, say to whoever is in your hands of the captives, "If Allah knows [any] good in your hearts, He will give you [something] better than what was taken from you, and He will forgive you; and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."



Sorry Pal,
One thing I can do is to read what the Quran says.
Would you like it in an Arabic transliteration?
Go to Corpus Quran .com and see that what is written in English, agrees with what I read in the Sahee International.
Definately not what you watered down!

By the way, would you like me to show you in the Al Bykhari how Muhammad attacked inocent tribes, killed and tortured the men, and allowed his Muslim jihadi's to rape the women?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 22, 2018, 03:25:46 AM
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Mouse, a word of advice.

If you're trying to prove that Christianity is better than Islam, you might be able to do so.  But not on this issue.  You've picked a really bad issue on which to make your case.
Never will I even attempt to do that!
Christianity is but a name for people who would like to associate them self with the thought of being in a social club where so called good people are members who want to associate with others, with their interpretation of what this religion should be. There are, just as in any other religion, wide horizons far removed from each other in Christianity, where many are no more than pretentious liars.
Then there are real sincere people, who live the way they do as if there is a God present at all times of their lives.

Again, Islam is also just as wide and multifaceted, and many Muslims are sincere in their religion.

So, what is the difference between the 2?

This is the core of the troubles on this Earth for over 2 000 years!

The difference is:

The Bible and the Quran!

If we investigate the Bible, and the Quran, then I will have the right to learn what the contents shows, and to make a conclusion.

This is the only true method in establishing if a Christian or Muslim is talking the truth about what their Holy Books teaches.

Therefore, if it concerns Slavery in the Bible and Quran, the Quran instructs Muslims to engage in sex slavery.
Many Muslims does not know this, simply because they never read what the Quran says.
This is why so called moderate Muslims turn into Jihadi's and terrorists when they learn what Muhammad did upon the instruction of the Quran.

And why would someone think the Bible condones slavery?
Because they also never read what the Bible said on the topic.

In short, I will never try to make Christianity great, and Islam bad.

This they counter them-self.
All I do is to compare the Bible and Quran.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 22, 2018, 05:09:16 AM
All theistic texts are about equally idiotic.  Debating the differences is like debating which end of an egg to open (he said Swiftly). 
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 23, 2018, 06:50:03 AM
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All theistic texts are about equally idiotic.  Debating the differences is like debating which end of an egg to open (he said Swiftly).
You should read the Book" thank God for Atheists! By Timothy Morgan.
Then you will see how Idiotic the philosophy of Atheism really is!

Well, at least Fredrich Nietzsche, Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.

Well, then again, these 3 summarizes all facets of Atheism, and re therefore including you too.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on August 23, 2018, 09:18:56 PM
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This they counter them-self.
All I do is to compare the Bible and Quran.

Even so, if slavery is going to be your topic you picked a very ad issue on which to make your case.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 24, 2018, 04:49:27 AM
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Even so, if slavery is going to be your topic you picked a very ad issue on which to make your case.
I wrote a few posts at the beginning of this thread where ALL THE INFORMATION ABOUT THE BIBLICAL AND QURANICAL MENTIONS OF SLAVERY CAN BE READ.

I have yet to find error in what I collected.
The Biblical slavery are not to be confused with slavery as we know it from the 15TH to 19Th centuries.

That type of slavery is one as dictated by Muhammad and his Allah to Muslims to practice.
Anyone that claim that slavery in the Bible is the same as Islamic, or that which was practiced 200 years ago, are simply attempting to distort the Biblical servant-ship to torturous enslavement.

Such a claim is simply an exhibition of willful deception.
Actually, anyone attempting this deception is now easily identifiable as a blatant liar.

This is a very nice acid test to find ignorant atheist, and Islamist con artists.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 24, 2018, 08:50:42 AM
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Realy?

A prophet MUST decimate the inhabitants of a country, BEFORE he is allowed to take BOOTY!
AND ONLY then may he CONSUME / ENJOY the booty!

How on on earth do you make these verses out at 'bloody wars' where Muhammad were forced to engage into?
Muhammad attacked all the neighboring Jewish and Christian tribes, and raided Arab caravans on this verse revealed by Allah!

Muhammad and his Arab thugs murdered the men, and raped the women on the battlefield!
then went and sell the children and women after wards.

Please read the verses in full, and dont attempt to dilute what it says.
Here it says that Allah DECREED Muhammad to massacre the inhabitants of a country,
Then to take slaves and to tell them not to worry, they are slaves now, but it is better than what they had before!



Anyhow, why did you not give us the full version of these verses?
What are you going on about?

As if trinitsrians didn't do the very same things in the name of GOD.

I gave the verse in it's entirety and even agreed with you to some extent.

Whatever.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 24, 2018, 08:52:37 AM
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Sorry Pal,
One thing I can do is to read what the Quran says.
Would you like it in an Arabic transliteration?
Go to Corpus Quran .com and see that what is written in English, agrees with what I read in the Sahee International.
Definately not what you watered down!

By the way, would you like me to show you in the Al Bykhari how Muhammad attacked inocent tribes, killed and tortured the men, and allowed his Muslim jihadi's to rape the women?
What I watered down.

It was copied and pasted. I removes what was in parentheses as such is an addition.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Jason78 on August 24, 2018, 12:47:59 PM
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And why would someone think the Bible condones slavery?
Because they also never read what the Bible said on the topic.

I don't think you've actually read that book.

In particular I don't think you've read the bit in Exodus 21:20–21
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: aitm on August 24, 2018, 08:03:25 PM
god damn cat-licks and protestants arguing again
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Unbeliever on August 24, 2018, 08:13:51 PM
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I don't think you've actually read that book.

In particular I don't think you've read the bit in Exodus 21:20–21

“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."

I don't see how it could be any more plain than that.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 24, 2018, 10:57:01 PM
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god damn cat-licks and protestants arguing again

Leave my cats alone!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 04:14:27 AM
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You should read the Book" thank God for Atheists! By Timothy Morgan.
Then you will see how Idiotic the philosophy of Atheism really is!

Well, at least Fredrich Nietzsche, Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.

Well, then again, these 3 summarizes all facets of Atheism, and re therefore including you too.

Given the detailed arguments I have read in favor of theism (and laughing at the poor logic), I see no reason to read another.  They are all the same. 

Premise #1, there is a provable deity.  When there is none, I need go no further.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 04:17:28 AM
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I wrote a few posts at the beginning of this thread where ALL THE INFORMATION ABOUT THE BIBLICAL AND QURANICAL MENTIONS OF SLAVERY CAN BE READ.

I have yet to find error in what I collected.
The Biblical slavery are not to be confused with slavery as we know it from the 15TH to 19Th centuries.

That type of slavery is one as dictated by Muhammad and his Allah to Muslims to practice.
Anyone that claim that slavery in the Bible is the same as Islamic, or that which was practiced 200 years ago, are simply attempting to distort the Biblical servant-ship to torturous enslavement.

Such a claim is simply an exhibition of willful deception.
Actually, anyone attempting this deception is now easily identifiable as a blatant liar.

This is a very nice acid test to find ignorant atheist, and Islamist con artists.

Slavery is slavery.  Just ask a slave.  The details, beliefs, and justifications don't matter.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 04:23:10 AM
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“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."

I don't see how it could be any more plain than that.

Well there you go.  Obviously the matter in question is the use of a "rod".  So whips and baseball bats should be just fine.  And don't laugh, there are probably theists who have or would make that distinction.  After all, isn't the bible supposed to be literal?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 27, 2018, 06:22:14 AM
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What are you going on about?

As if trinitsrians didn't do the very same things in the name of GOD.

I gave the verse in it's entirety and even agreed with you to some extent.

Whatever.

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Good!
As long as you agree that "Trinitarians" practiced slavery in defiance to what the Bible said,
And Muslims practices slavery by instruction of the Quran.
Then we agree to the truth.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 27, 2018, 06:29:54 AM
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I don't think you've actually read that book.

In particular I don't think you've read the bit in Exodus 21:20–21
Oh, but I did read that verses.
I also quoted it.
But lets see what this verse says,
If you hit your slave, and he dies!
You will be executed!

If he does not die, but recovers, but later dies, you are not guilty of murder.

I see you also conveniently forgot verses 26 onwards.
Quote from: Bible
...25burn for burn, wound for wound, and stripe for stripe. 26If a man strikes the eye of his manservant or maidservant and blinds it, he must let the servant go free in compensation for the eye. 27And if he knocks out the tooth of his manservant or maidservant, he must let the servant go free in compensation for the tooth.…

Now why on earth did you read and refer to only HALF A VERSE AND STOPPED SHORT OF ANY OTHER REFERENCES ON HOW TO TREAT A SLAVE?

If I were to do what you do, I will be called a liar!

Do you agree that you tried to mislead by your actions?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 06:34:37 AM
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Oh, but I did read that verses.
I also quoted it.
But lets see what this verse says,
If you hit your slave, and he dies!
You will be executed!

If he does not die, but recovers, but later dies, you are not guilty of murder.

I see you also conveniently forgot verses 26 onwards.
Now why on earth did you read and refer to only HALF A VERSE AND STOPPED SHORT OF ANY OTHER REFERENCES ON HOW TO TREAT A SLAVE?

If I were to do what you do, I will be called a liar!

Do you agree that you tried to mislead by your actions?

Detailed rules of cruelty, ordained by a claimed "loving deity", seems both idiotic and evil.  If I were religious, I would cease to be such.  Fortunately, I was free of all that nonsense many decades ago.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 27, 2018, 06:40:15 AM
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Given the detailed arguments I have read in favor of theism (and laughing at the poor logic), I see no reason to read another.  They are all the same. 

Premise #1, there is a provable deity.  When there is none, I need go no further.
Oh, but what you dont know is that He was an Atheist!
Just think, he rejected theism after he studied theology, and became a minister.

However, when he investigated all the claims of atheism, such as you and your friends are doing here on this forum, he discovered that atheism is a delusion of logic!

I love this guy, go on and read what he says man, it wont hurt.
Perhaps you will be able to answer his questions.

Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 06:44:19 AM
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Oh, but what you dont know is that He was an Atheist!
Just think, he rejected theism after he studied theology, and became a minister.

However, when he investigated all the claims of atheism, such as you and your friends are doing here on this forum, he discovered that atheism is a delusion of logic!

I love this guy, go on and read what he says man, it wont hurt.
Perhaps you will be able to answer his questions.

WHO are you talking about?  With "He", I would assume you mean a deity, but you seem to mean a person you trust for guidance.  Care to say more about Him?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 27, 2018, 06:47:47 AM
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Detailed rules of cruelty, ordained by a claimed "loving deity", seems both idiotic and evil.  If I were religious, I would cease to be such.  Fortunately, I was free of all that nonsense many decades ago.
And why the spin on the fact that the Bible tells you not to hit a slave, for if he lose as little as a tooth, he is to be set free.
Remember that the master bought this person with a wage pre paid for 7 years, and he will not be compensated.

Now, I assume, and this is not in these verses, that some person in Israel went and hit a slave with a rod, and the person died, or he recovered, and this was a law needed to determine treatment of slaves.
This will absolutely make sense if one continues to read only 5 more verses, where it says that hurting a slave, and by hitting even a tooth, he is free.

Anyhow, while you are attempting to discredit the Bible on if a slave can be hit with a rod, and if he dies, you are guilty of murder,how many slave mongers in history do you know that were executed for murdering slaves.

Go into history back another 3 000 years, and see if you can find any examples outside of the Bible.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 27, 2018, 06:49:38 AM
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WHO are you talking about?  With "He", I would assume you mean a deity, but you seem to mean a person you trust for guidance.  Care to say more about Him?
I do apologize,
I typed capital letter,should be the writer you referred to.
Timothy Morgan.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 06:59:00 AM
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I do apologize,
I typed capital letter,should be the writer you referred to.
Timothy Morgan.

Looking up "Timothy Morgan" I find no person who applies to your discussion.  A little reference please?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 27, 2018, 07:12:30 AM
https://www.amazon.com/Thank-God-Atheists-Greatest-Skeptics/dp/0736966285
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 07:19:15 AM
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https://www.amazon.com/Thank-God-Atheists-Greatest-Skeptics/dp/0736966285

Thank you.  I may put it in my cart there.  But I really do already have a lot of explanatory books by theists, so I don't know if I need another.  The reviews are quite mixed even among theists.  And I keep in mind the reviews that all seem to be about them being happy to read about a lapsed atheist.  Well, it happens...  Nothing says you can't get stupider with age.

But I do thank you for providing the link. 
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 07:43:26 AM
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Good!
As long as you agree that "Trinitarians" practiced slavery in defiance to what the Bible said,
And Muslims practices slavery by instruction of the Quran.
Then we agree to the truth.
Nope. That isn't what I said at all.

Mercy doesn't equal slavery.

Loving  another as self doesn't equal slavery.



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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 27, 2018, 07:48:04 AM
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Nope. That isn't what I said at all.

Mercy doesn't equal slavery.

Loving  another as self doesn't equal slavery.



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I think you are one of those Muslims pretending to be an atheist so you can attack the Bible and glorify the Quran.

Let me prov it.
Did Allah instruct Muhammad to capture slaves, or not?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 07:54:29 AM
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I think you are one of those Muslims pretending to be an atheist so you can attack the Bible and glorify the Quran.

Let me prov it.
Did Allah instruct Muhammad to capture slaves, or not?
I don't care what your opinion is about me friend.

I am an Islamic christian.

That is to say it is my will to submit to the will of our Lord/ Christ/ the Spirit.

I am no atheist. I was for a very long time though.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 07:55:19 AM
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I think you are one of those Muslims pretending to be an atheist so you can attack the Bible and glorify the Quran.

Let me prov it.
Did Allah instruct Muhammad to capture slaves, or not?

Well, while you weren't aiming that at me, I AM awake and bored.  So...

Christians and Moslems were both African slave traders.  Both of them thought their religious texts permitted and encouraged it for conversion purposes at first and just cheap labor afterwards.  Sort of "inferior people shall not be allowed to thrive when we can get some use from them".

Disgusting all around.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 07:58:35 AM
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Well, while you weren't aiming that at me, I AM awake and bored.  So...

Christians and Moslems were both African slave traders.  Both of them thought their religious texts permitted and encouraged it for conversion purposes at first and just cheap labor afterwards.  Sort of "inferior people shall not be allowed to thrive when we can get some use from them".

Disgusting all around.

Virtue signalling.  Funded by investments from New England and the City of London.  And Christian Brits and Americans stopped it.  So a ambiguous result in history.  It wasn't brave Stalinists who freed the slaves in the 19th century .. they invented a new kind of tyranny instead.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 07:59:36 AM
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I don't care what your opinion is about me friend.

I am an Islamic christian.

That is to say it is my will to submit to the will of our Lord/ Christ/ the Spirit.

I am no atheist. I was for a very long time though.

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Get confused a lot, huh?  Tell me, what is the name of the messiah you follow?  Jemohamused?  What's next, Hindu?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 08:00:36 AM
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Get confused a lot, huh?  Tell me, what is the name of the messiah you follow?  Jemohamused?  What's next, Hindu?

He apparently is a universalist/unitarian.  I minority view.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 08:05:54 AM
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Get confused a lot, huh?  Tell me, what is the name of the messiah you follow?  Jemohamused?  What's next, Hindu?
GOD.

I believe the Hindu teachings in the Baghavad Gita and Upinishads also speaks of the Holy Spirit of GOD which is as a potentiality in each of us.

What is confusing about One Creator GOD?

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 08:07:44 AM
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He apparently is a universalist/unitarian.  I minority view.
Of sorts, yes.



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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 08:11:51 AM
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GOD.

I believe the Hindu teachings in the Baghavad Gita and Upinishads also speaks of the Holy Spirit of GOD which is as a potentiality in each of us.

What is confusing about One Creator GOD?

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Must get awkward when the various faithful disagree to the point of murder when you believe in all their deities. 
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 27, 2018, 08:12:10 AM
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Thank you.  I may put it in my cart there.  But I really do already have a lot of explanatory books by theists, so I don't know if I need another.  The reviews are quite mixed even among theists.  And I keep in mind the reviews that all seem to be about them being happy to read about a lapsed atheist.  Well, it happens...  Nothing says you can't get stupider with age.

But I do thank you for providing the link.
And it is so true.
I found that between Atheism, Christianity, Islam, all their apologists can be a bit tiresome.
I thought Jason Long with his Biblical nonsense was totally uninformed on what the Bible said.
So do I think Ken Ham on his Answers 1 and 2 definitely disregards scientific studies on the age of light, origins of the Universe and Sun etc. A real superficial composition forcing HIS Biblical interpretation onto the reader.
Maurice Buchaille again, was paid to glorify the Quran, discredit the Bible, and to scratch any thing out of his nose to make the Quran a miracle.

I read more than 2 000 books (which I acquired and display in my library) and found it very tiresome to go through most of them to find any intellectual substance.

Anyhow,
All Timothy Morgan did was to scrutinize Nietzsche, Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.   

The only reason why I quoted him, is that he managed to find facts in summarizing their work.
I knew what he was talking about, because I also studied their publications, but it was just nice to have all this information in print form without me having to seek through my own notes.

You can get his work in PDF
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 27, 2018, 08:13:40 AM
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Well, while you weren't aiming that at me, I AM awake and bored.  So...

Christians and Moslems were both African slave traders.  Both of them thought their religious texts permitted and encouraged it for conversion purposes at first and just cheap labor afterwards.  Sort of "inferior people shall not be allowed to thrive when we can get some use from them".

Disgusting all around.
And this is true.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 08:14:44 AM
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Must get awkward when the various faithful disagree to the point of murder when you believe in all their deities.
(shrugs shoulders)

If it is to the point of murder then the truth will be made apparent through such an action.

We are not taught to murder in any core sacred text I have ever read.

Mercy is the common denominator as is the motive for such, at very least.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 27, 2018, 08:22:25 AM
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GOD.

I believe the Hindu teachings in the Baghavad Gita and Upinishads also speaks of the Holy Spirit of GOD which is as a potentiality in each of us.

What is confusing about One Creator GOD?

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Ok, Now you got me on my hind legs!
Please refer to the verses of the Baghavad Gita and Upanishads so I can also find this information.

I never saw any such references when I summarized it.
Anyhow, Do you know that the Upanishad was originally less than 40 verses?
Do you know that the additions dates from about 800 Ad?
Whilst we are on the Gita, do you know there is also an Hindu Trinity?
You should because Muslim scholars such as Yusuf Ismail and Zakir Naik loves to say that the Christian Trinity derived from the Trimurti.
Do you know that the Trimurti dates from 850 AD.

All you are believing in is stuff Islam and Hinduism copied from Christianity.


Please show me where the Upanishads and Gita refers to the Holy spirit.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 08:26:59 AM
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(shrugs shoulders)

If it is to the point of murder then the truth will be made apparent through such an action.

We are not taught to murder in any core sacred text I have ever read.

Mercy is the common denominator as is the motive for such, at very least.

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All religious texts tell us what we humans already figured out.  Do not murder, steal, or overly covet.  The religious books just represent what people learned as they settled into larger groups.  The rest of the rules about sabbath days etc are from the shamans seeking to hold power.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 08:31:31 AM
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Ok, Now you got me on my hind legs!
Please refer to the verses of the Baghavad Gita and Upanishads so I can also find this information.

I never saw any such references when I summarized it.
Anyhow, Do you know that the Upanishad was originally less than 40 verses?
Do you know that the additions dates from about 800 Ad?
Whilst we are on the Gita, do you know there is also an Hindu Trinity?
You should because Muslim scholars such as Yusuf Ismail and Zakir Naik loves to say that the Christian Trinity derived from the Trimurti.
Do you know that the Trimurti dates from 850 AD.

All you are believing in is stuff Islam and Hinduism copied from Christianity.


Please show me where the Upanishads and Gita refers to the Holy spirit.

The Jewish beliefs came from Persia (they were never slaves in Egypt), the Persians got it from older Summaria, the Summarians got it from India.  Everything is copied from one stupid idiot who got the whole religious idea in pre-historic times.  Maybe after surviving some lion attack, LOL!  Or too much opium seeds...
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 27, 2018, 08:35:32 AM
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(shrugs shoulders)

If it is to the point of murder then the truth will be made apparent through such an action.

We are not taught to murder in any core sacred text I have ever read.

Mercy is the common denominator as is the motive for such, at very least.

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Sir,
I have spoken to enough Muslims in my life to know you are busy with Tiqiah (telling a lie to further the Quran, Muhammad and Islam).

No religion on earth, except Islam, believes in the Quran.

Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 08:36:15 AM
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Ok, Now you got me on my hind legs!
Please refer to the verses of the Baghavad Gita and Upanishads so I can also find this information.

I never saw any such references when I summarized it.
Anyhow, Do you know that the Upanishad was originally less than 40 verses?
Do you know that the additions dates from about 800 Ad?
Whilst we are on the Gita, do you know there is also an Hindu Trinity?
You should because Muslim scholars such as Yusuf Ismail and Zakir Naik loves to say that the Christian Trinity derived from the Trimurti.
Do you know that the Trimurti dates from 850 AD.

All you are believing in is stuff Islam and Hinduism copied from Christianity.


Please show me where the Upanishads and Gita refers to the Holy spirit.
The small quite voice.

The fire.

Did you really just say that Hinduism is actually a derivative of Christianity?

Yes I am aware there is a sort of trinity in some schools of Hinduism. It is my contention that those expressions still come from the One Creator GOD ultimately.

I do not have the copies of the books any more.

I can literally read through them and pinpoint reference to the Spirit of GOD and the selfless concience. If you like you can post some and I will.....perhaps I should redownload the Gita......it's been some time now.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 08:38:07 AM
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All religious texts tell us what we humans already figured out.  Do not murder, steal, or overly covet.  The religious books just represent what people learned as they settled into larger groups.  The rest of the rules about sabbath days etc are from the shamans seeking to hold power.
How is it that you think one day of rest and reflection on GOD is not needed out of seven.

I've worked weeks on end. It is not good for you. I have gone weeks without reflecting on what is good and right in my own life due to being preoccupied. It is not good for you.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 08:40:07 AM
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The Jewish beliefs came from Persia (they were never slaves in Egypt), the Persians got it from older Summaria, the Summarians got it from India.  Everything is copied from one stupid idiot who got the whole religious idea in pre-historic times.  Maybe after surviving some lion attack, LOL!  Or too much opium seeds...
And the Zend Avesta?

Trash I suppose to you?

You are right that man has had sense enough to believe in a Cause since before written history.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 08:41:58 AM


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Sir,
I have spoken to enough Muslims in my life to know you are busy with Tiqiah (telling a lie to further the Quran, Muhammad and Islam).

No religion on earth, except Islam, believes in the Quran.

Religion!?

Who said I was religious?

Your grand assumption is just that.

Who are you to claim that a believer must accept one and throw out the other?

Vanity much?

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 27, 2018, 08:42:43 AM
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The Jewish beliefs came from Persia (they were never slaves in Egypt), the Persians got it from older Summaria, the Summarians got it from India.  Everything is copied from one stupid idiot who got the whole religious idea in pre-historic times.  Maybe after surviving some lion attack, LOL!  Or too much opium seeds...
Never slaves in Egypt?
If you look at the dating by Kathleen Kenyon of Exodus in 1 200 BC (walls of Jericho), there was never an exodus.
However, The dates prescribed in the Bible is clearly, 1 459 Bc, then there is ample evidence.
follow Jericho back to 1 402 Bc, and the smallest detail about Jericho proves an invasion by Israel.

Look at the Bilaam inscriptions, the Hebrew mines inscriptions etc.
Modern archaeology attempts to deny any Biblical archaeology, however, never was there a single archaeological discovery that contradicted the Bible.
On the contrary, we can thank the Bible for historical discoveries in the middle east, and over the past 200 years, only the Biblical historical descriptions stood the test of time.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 08:46:06 AM
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Sir,
I have spoken to enough Muslims in my life to know you are busy with Tiqiah (telling a lie to further the Quran, Muhammad and Islam).

No religion on earth, except Islam, believes in the Quran.
And what do you think the word Islamic means?

What do you think Catholic means?

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 08:52:21 AM
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The small quite voice.

The fire.

Did you really just say that Hinduism is actually a derivative of Christianity?

Yes I am aware there is a sort of trinity in some schools of Hinduism. It is my contention that those expressions still come from the One Creator GOD ultimately.

I do not have the copies of the books any more.

I can literally read through them and pinpoint reference to the Spirit of GOD and the selfless concience. If you like you can post some and I will.....perhaps I should redownload the Gita......it's been some time now.

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Just out of curiosity, how do you read through books you no longer have?  Do you stick your head in a top hat, or do you sniff burning leaves?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 08:56:59 AM
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How is it that you think one day of rest and reflection on GOD is not needed out of seven.
Even one day wasted thinking about a mythical being is too much a waste of time.  I would rather spend the "7th day" doing useful stuff in the house and garden as I do most other days.  Not to say I don't rest sometimes, but it is random and not decreed by some sky power.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 09:01:20 AM
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Never slaves in Egypt?
If you look at the dating by Kathleen Kenyon of Exodus in 1 200 BC (walls of Jericho), there was never an exodus.
However, The dates prescribed in the Bible is clearly, 1 459 Bc, then there is ample evidence.
follow Jericho back to 1 402 Bc, and the smallest detail about Jericho proves an invasion by Israel.

Look at the Bilaam inscriptions, the Hebrew mines inscriptions etc.
Modern archaeology attempts to deny any Biblical archaeology, however, never was there a single archaeological discovery that contradicted the Bible.
On the contrary, we can thank the Bible for historical discoveries in the middle east, and over the past 200 years, only the Biblical historical descriptions stood the test of time.

Modern archeology does not attempt to deny anything.  It just provides evidence of what occurred in the past.  For example, there is no evidence of Jewish pottery designs or any other activities in Egypt.  There ARE some suggestions that the Jews spent time in Persia.  The Persian evidence is in the pottery the Jews made when they left. 

They just didn't know where they were, LOL!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 09:04:44 AM
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Never slaves in Egypt?
If you look at the dating by Kathleen Kenyon of Exodus in 1 200 BC (walls of Jericho), there was never an exodus.
However, The dates prescribed in the Bible is clearly, 1 459 Bc, then there is ample evidence.
follow Jericho back to 1 402 Bc, and the smallest detail about Jericho proves an invasion by Israel.

Look at the Bilaam inscriptions, the Hebrew mines inscriptions etc.
Modern archaeology attempts to deny any Biblical archaeology, however, never was there a single archaeological discovery that contradicted the Bible.
On the contrary, we can thank the Bible for historical discoveries in the middle east, and over the past 200 years, only the Biblical historical descriptions stood the test of time.

And, I meant to add, the concept of "biblical scholar" is a whopping joke to the real archeologists...  Biblical scholars are just annoying little pests seeking to prove what they already believe hoping for anything that will support their religious texts.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 09:08:00 AM
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And what do you think the word Islamic means?

What do you think Catholic means?

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Islam - "religious system revealed by Muhammad," 1816, from Arabic islam, literally "submission" (to the will of God), from root of aslama "he resigned, he surrendered, he submitted," causative conjunction of salima "he was safe," and related to salam "peace."

Catholic - The word catholic literally means "universal," as in "the universal church." It originally was applied to all Christians.

Any other obviously simple questions?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 09:10:38 AM
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Just out of curiosity, how do you read through books you no longer have?  Do you stick your head in a top hat, or do you sniff burning leaves?
I suppose you reference a misuse of words or an inaccuracy on my part.

I apologise. I am speaking from memory at the moment.

I thought I had made that clear enough.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 09:11:50 AM
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Even one day wasted thinking about a mythical being is too much a waste of time.  I would rather spend the "7th day" doing useful stuff in the house and garden as I do most other days.  Not to say I don't rest sometimes, but it is random and not decreed by some sky power.
Of course.

No one said to meditate for no reason.

All real thought should lead to action if one actually believes what they have concluded....right?

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 09:12:59 AM
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Islam - "religious system revealed by Muhammad," 1816, from Arabic islam, literally "submission" (to the will of God), from root of aslama "he resigned, he surrendered, he submitted," causative conjunction of salima "he was safe," and related to salam "peace."

Catholic - The word catholic literally means "universal," as in "the universal church." It originally was applied to all Christians.

Any other obviously simple questions?
No.

Thank you, really.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 09:16:41 AM
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I suppose you reference a misuse of words or an inaccuracy on my part.

I apologise. I am speaking from memory at the moment.

I thought I had made that clear enough.

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Nothing complicated here.  You are either reading books you no longer have or you aren't.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 09:18:50 AM
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Of course.

No one said to meditate for no reason.

All real thought should lead to action if one actually believes what they have concluded....right?

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Your deity did.  And on a specific day.  And with rituals.  Don't dodge.  You are held to what you said.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
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No.

Thank you, really.

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Glad to be of assistance.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 09:20:47 AM
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Nothing complicated here.  You are either reading books you no longer have or you aren't.
I'm still wondering why you are focusing on this?

Must one continually read in order to comprehend?

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 09:21:36 AM
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Your deity did.  And on a specific day.  And with rituals.  Don't dodge.  You are held to what you said.
Yet Christ came with the truth.



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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 09:28:01 AM
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I'm still wondering why you are focusing on this?

Must one continually read in order to comprehend?

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You posted earlier that you were reading books you no longer had.  I just can't help laughing about the idea.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 09:29:13 AM
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You posted earlier that you were reading books you no longer had.  I just can't help laughing about the idea.
It is laughable in retrospect. I should have more clearly conveyed "had read".

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 09:30:05 AM
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Yet Christ came with the truth.
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1.  Prove Christ existed.

We can discuss what he said if you can do the above.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 09:32:36 AM
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1.  Prove Christ existed.

We can discuss what he said if you can do the above.
You deny your own conscience, or that it can be without bias, or that it is of the Source?



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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 09:35:33 AM
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It is laughable in retrospect. I should have more clearly conveyed "had read".

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Well, you did say "I'm still wondering why you are focusing on this?  Must one continually read in order to comprehend?".

Now you know why.  It made no sense as you posted it.  Now it does.  (Hurls confetti and glitter into the air in celebration of Pops finally understanding the illogic of what he said earlier).
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 09:37:58 AM
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You deny your own conscience, or that it can be without bias, or that it is of the Source?

That makes no sense.  I am my only source and conscience.  I readily admit to bias based of facts.

So I ask again, prove your deity exists.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 09:38:21 AM
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Well, you did say "I'm still wondering why you are focusing on this?  Must one continually read in order to comprehend?".

Now you know why.  It made no sense as you posted it.  Now it does.  (Hurls confetti and glitter into the air in celebration of Pops finally understanding the illogic of what he said earlier).
I caught it initially. Just seems exceptionally redundant and disingenuous to continue about it as if some big ole booboo.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 09:40:09 AM
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I caught it initially. Just seems exceptionally redundant and disingenuous to continue about it as if some big ole booboo.

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Seeker of Accuracy...  Level 5.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 09:50:19 AM
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That makes no sense.  I am my only source and conscience.  I readily admit to bias based of facts.

So I ask again, prove your deity exists.
How are you your own source?

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 09:52:59 AM
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How are you your own source?

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I am me.  Self-aware.  Self thoughtful.  Everything within me is "my own source".  If you want to get into reading the sports in the newspaper, though, that is entirely different.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mike Cl on August 27, 2018, 11:24:46 AM
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Yet Christ came with the truth.



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Jesus and your Christ are fiction.  And there is no 'the truth'. Jesus is man-made and 'the truth' is subjective.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Blackleaf on August 27, 2018, 12:04:21 PM
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(shrugs shoulders)

If it is to the point of murder then the truth will be made apparent through such an action.

We are not taught to murder in any core sacred text I have ever read.

Mercy is the common denominator as is the motive for such, at very least.

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Mercy? What Christians call mercy, I call something else entirely.

God: "I made you imperfect, but I'm putting the blame on you for that. I'm going to punish you for the imperfections I gave you. But don't worry, there's a way out."

Human: "By doing my best to leave the world better than when I came into it?"

God: "Pffft! Fuck no. I just want you to kiss my ass for all of eternity. Then I'll forgive you and won't torture you forever and ever in a pit of fire."

Yeah, that's not mercy. What's the word for that? Bribery? Blackmail? I don't know, but it definitely isn't mercy.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 01:09:56 PM
It is called cruelty.  See Job, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 01:12:00 PM
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How are you your own source?

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All individuals are mono-maniacs.  They tend toward atheism and sociopathy (though not all get there).  In ancient Greek, "idiotes" is the word for an individual.  Achilles as a mono-maniac ... easily killed by the later Greek phalanx.  No one-on-one duels except for idiots.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 01:13:38 PM
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You deny your own conscience, or that it can be without bias, or that it is of the Source?



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We are not individuals, even as individuals.  Man is a social animal.  And some say our conscious identity is the result of a committee of cooperating personalities.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 01:14:41 PM
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Jesus and your Christ are fiction.  And there is no 'the truth'. Jesus is man-made and 'the truth' is subjective.

Well, there MIGHT be truth somewhere, but it sure isn't in ancient superstitions about some unknown sky being. 

Let's say I was being REAL kind and allowing for the idea of a deity somewhere (don't get all upset, this is a thought experiment).  Suppose that being created us even.  Does any part of any theism represent what such a being would really be like?  Representing the worst of our nature?  Of course not.  It would be helpful, kind, and tolerant of our failures.  The best of our imaginings and more.  A combination of the best Boy/Girl Scout, your kindly grandmother, and a wise old neighbor who tosses the ball back over his fence even if you broke a window.  And even THAT is limited to our human understanding.

Never mind that such a being doesn't exist by any logic and is not necessary to the existence of the Universe...

One argument against all theisms is that their deities are so pathetically LIMITED.  The mere fact that all the theisms imagine a punishment being is enough to make them all idiotic.

Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 01:15:45 PM
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And, I meant to add, the concept of "biblical scholar" is a whopping joke to the real archeologists...  Biblical scholars are just annoying little pests seeking to prove what they already believe hoping for anything that will support their religious texts.

Biblical archeology is just apologetics with pot-sherds.  Correct on that.  However archeologists can't tell you much about those people.  Their writings however partial and sectarian, is all we have.  Pot sherds won't get you close to the real people.  It is just ancient trash.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 01:17:21 PM
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Even one day wasted thinking about a mythical being is too much a waste of time.  I would rather spend the "7th day" doing useful stuff in the house and garden as I do most other days.  Not to say I don't rest sometimes, but it is random and not decreed by some sky power.

Literalism + impersonalism.  The flip side of literalism + personalism.  For the impersonalist, they are ultimately ... without personhood, just a bunch of atoms, nothing more.  And literalism ... of course that is ham fisted.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 01:18:41 PM
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Must get awkward when the various faithful disagree to the point of murder when you believe in all their deities.

Not possible for a literalist.  In fact, a literalist ends up being a monotheist.  But for the poetic, even shit is useful manure.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 01:24:42 PM
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(shrugs shoulders)

If it is to the point of murder then the truth will be made apparent through such an action.

We are not taught to murder in any core sacred text I have ever read.

Mercy is the common denominator as is the motive for such, at very least.

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Theft, assault and murder make perfect sense to the man living in nature.  The idea that cavemen living one day at a time, had any natural ethics, is laughable.  Ethics was a much later development.  The first ethic was ... don't do that in the hunting group (pride).  The second ethic was don't do that in the clan (extended family).  The third ethic was don't do that in the tribe (theoretically related clans).  And there it stopped for thousands of years.  We are still into tribal warfare, but we define tribes differently now.  It is OK to steal, assault and murder members of other tribes.  The US has done this every year I have been alive.

Mercy is a very advanced concept, just like international law.  Vengeful people still reject mercy.  Nations still deny international law.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 01:25:50 PM
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All religious texts tell us what we humans already figured out.  Do not murder, steal, or overly covet.  The religious books just represent what people learned as they settled into larger groups.  The rest of the rules about sabbath days etc are from the shamans seeking to hold power.

No, they didn't figure this out.  New Guinea people before modern times engaged in endemic warfare, head hunting and cannibalism.  You are much to generous to our prehistoric ancestors.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 01:35:22 PM
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The Jewish beliefs came from Persia (they were never slaves in Egypt), the Persians got it from older Summaria, the Summarians got it from India.  Everything is copied from one stupid idiot who got the whole religious idea in pre-historic times.  Maybe after surviving some lion attack, LOL!  Or too much opium seeds...

Yes and no.  The language origins of Biblical Hebrew (etymology) shows otherwise, in the sense that it is more complicated than religion or anti-Semites claim.

And yes, people have used drugs since pre-historic times.  Are you anti-drug?  A minority view to people posting here.

The majority of old words in Biblical Hebrew are proto-Semitic ... they date back to about 3500 BCE ... same as Arabic, Canaanite, Babylonian etc.  The input of Egyptian was minor (only a minority of pre-Jews came from Egypt).  The early parts of the Bible are court literature from King Saul, King David, King Solomon etc.  The majority were already in Canaan long before King Saul, it was multiethnic from the beginning.  There were few distinctly Canaanite words adopted.  The adoption of Babylonian, Sumerian loan words into Babylonian, and Persian words are few ... and only come in with the Babylonian Exile and the Persian conquest.  From the Persian time forward a few Aramaic words (the state language under Assyria, Babylonia and Persia) were adopted ... mostly in Ezra and Daniel.

Proto-Semitic and Egyptian both go back to Proto-Afro-Asiatic about 8000 BCE (when people first settled down into agriculture).  But that is just a common ancestry, not a cause/effect.  Proto-Afro-Asiatic is older than proto-Indo-European (which only can be reconstructed back to 4000 BCE.  But there are very few words verifiably proto-Afro-Asiatic, as opposed to words coined by later societies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST_tAduIhWc
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 01:39:05 PM
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Never slaves in Egypt?
If you look at the dating by Kathleen Kenyon of Exodus in 1 200 BC (walls of Jericho), there was never an exodus.
However, The dates prescribed in the Bible is clearly, 1 459 Bc, then there is ample evidence.
follow Jericho back to 1 402 Bc, and the smallest detail about Jericho proves an invasion by Israel.

Look at the Bilaam inscriptions, the Hebrew mines inscriptions etc.
Modern archaeology attempts to deny any Biblical archaeology, however, never was there a single archaeological discovery that contradicted the Bible.
On the contrary, we can thank the Bible for historical discoveries in the middle east, and over the past 200 years, only the Biblical historical descriptions stood the test of time.

There were Semites in Egypt before Moses, and after Moses.  They were constantly migrating in and out all the way until the Arab invasions.  Eventually the Semites managed to completely suppress the native Egyptians.  The Bible is named for Byblos, a very ancient town in Lebanon.  That is where recycled papyrus was made into "blank books" for business journals.  And that is how the first manuscripts of the NT were collected.  Torah scrolls were usually made on new papyrus rolls (papyrus = paper).  Once the supply of papyrus dwindled, vellum parchment was substituted, but it was very expensive.  Lamb skins.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 01:43:08 PM
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I'm still wondering why you are focusing on this?

Must one continually read in order to comprehend?

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Yes.  And please quote the Gita in the original Sanskrit.  Otherwise ..
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 01:44:38 PM
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Yet Christ came with the truth.



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But Jesus (literary character) cleverly asks the disciples "Who do you say I am".  Simple minds can't get that.  We each in our encounter with Judeo-Christian culture, get to answer that question.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 01:46:14 PM
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1.  Prove Christ existed.

We can discuss what he said if you can do the above.

Jesus existed (as many men, even in Mexico).  Christ is a title ... prove the Presidency exists (but not using any specific President).
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 02:19:05 PM
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I am me.  Self-aware.  Self thoughtful.  Everything within me is "my own source".  If you want to get into reading the sports in the newspaper, though, that is entirely different.
So you are responsible for your own existence? Wouldnt that have been your parents and the ones before them and so forth and so on? Yet none of your parents or relatives created the very laws that construct/ed the universe did they?



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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 02:19:56 PM
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Mercy? What Christians call mercy, I call something else entirely.

God: "I made you imperfect, but I'm putting the blame on you for that. I'm going to punish you for the imperfections I gave you. But don't worry, there's a way out."

Human: "By doing my best to leave the world better than when I came into it?"

God: "Pffft! Fuck no. I just want you to kiss my ass for all of eternity. Then I'll forgive you and won't torture you forever and ever in a pit of fire."

Yeah, that's not mercy. What's the word for that? Bribery? Blackmail? I don't know, but it definitely isn't mercy.
Agreed

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 02:24:18 PM
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Well, there MIGHT be truth somewhere, but it sure isn't in ancient superstitions about some unknown sky being. 

Let's say I was being REAL kind and allowing for the idea of a deity somewhere (don't get all upset, this is a thought experiment).  Suppose that being created us even.  Does any part of any theism represent what such a being would really be like?  Representing the worst of our nature?  Of course not.  It would be helpful, kind, and tolerant of our failures.  The best of our imaginings and more.  A combination of the best Boy/Girl Scout, your kindly grandmother, and a wise old neighbor who tosses the ball back over his fence even if you broke a window.  And even THAT is limited to our human understanding.

Never mind that such a being doesn't exist by any logic and is not necessary to the existence of the Universe...

One argument against all theisms is that their deities are so pathetically LIMITED.  The mere fact that all the theisms imagine a punishment being is enough to make them all idiotic.
All "theisms" don't assume such.

One may be punished for knowingly going against what is good in favor of personal want or greed or attainment.

But to think that GOD sent GOD to be a blood sacrifice to GOD so that we can be safe from eternal destruction due us because of the potential we were knowingly given by GOD seems very inaccurate and illogical to me.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 02:27:02 PM
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So you are responsible for your own existence? Wouldnt that have been your parents and the ones before them and so forth and so on? Yet none of your parents or relatives created the very laws that construct/ed the universe did they?
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I do not claim to have actually created myself.  But, as an adult, I am mostly responsible for my thoughts and actions.  As the eldest child, my resistence to parental influence after age 10 or so was quite a shock.  Well, at least I eased the way for my younger siblings, LOL!

My ancestors did not create the laws of the Universe.  We merely (perforce) obeyed those laws.  Your point is...?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 02:29:40 PM
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Theft, assault and murder make perfect sense to the man living in nature.  The idea that cavemen living one day at a time, had any natural ethics, is laughable.  Ethics was a much later development.  The first ethic was ... don't do that in the hunting group (pride).  The second ethic was don't do that in the clan (extended family).  The third ethic was don't do that in the tribe (theoretically related clans).  And there it stopped for thousands of years.  We are still into tribal warfare, but we define tribes differently now.  It is OK to steal, assault and murder members of other tribes.  The US has done this every year I have been alive.

Mercy is a very advanced concept, just like international law.  Vengeful people still reject mercy.  Nations still deny international law.
I do not condone the wars of the country I reside in.

It has nothing to do with society or politics to me personally. If looking at the whole world as a tribe then infighting seems a little off.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 02:34:02 PM
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I do not claim to have actually created myself.  But, as an adult, I am mostly responsible for my thoughts and actions.  As the eldest child, my resistence to parental influence after age 10 or so was quite a shock.  Well, at least I eased the way for my younger siblings, LOL!

My ancestors did not create the laws of the Universe.  We merely (perforce) obeyed those laws.  Your point is...?
Your first sentence stated my point.

Thanks again

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 02:35:36 PM
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So you are responsible for your own existence? Wouldnt that have been your parents and the ones before them and so forth and so on? Yet none of your parents or relatives created the very laws that construct/ed the universe did they?



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Cavebear is like many individualists, he is like the rabbit who pulled himself out of his own hat ;-)
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 02:37:01 PM
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All "theisms" don't assume such.

One may be punished for knowingly going against what is good in favor of personal want or greed or attainment.

But to think that GOD sent GOD to be a blood sacrifice to GOD so that we can be safe from eternal destruction due us because of the potential we were knowingly given by GOD seems very inaccurate and illogical to me.

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"Going against the common good" is a human definition, not a religious one.  A religious one would be eating pork or plowing a field on a certain day.  Which makes no human sense as pork is meat and crops need to be planted regardless of the day.

I didn't previously quite realize what a religiously hide-bound nut you were.  But using "GOD" 4 times in one sentence made it clear.  I have to admire the illogic required to state that Being A sent Itself to be a sacrifice to Itself.  Remarkable.  Just think of all the goats and lambs that could have been saved...

Thanx.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 02:37:20 PM
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I do not condone the wars of the country I reside in.

It has nothing to do with society or politics to me personally. If looking at the whole world as a tribe then infighting seems a little off.

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If you pay taxes, then you support wars.  Even Gandhi and MLK did.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 02:38:00 PM
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"Going against the common good" is a human definition, not a religious one.  A religious one would be eating pork or plowing a field on a certain day.  Which makes no human sense as pork is meat and crops need to be planted regardless of the day.

I didn't previously quite realize what a religiously hide-bound nut you were.  But using "GOD" 4 times in one sentence made it clear.  I have to admire the illogic required to state that Being A sent Itself to be a sacrifice to Itself.  Remarkable.  Just think of all the goats and lambs that could have been saved...

Thanx.

There is no common good .. except in-tribe.  The Spanish and the Aztecs can be consulted.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 02:38:23 PM
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Your first sentence stated my point.

Thanks again

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No prob.  It was just a sperm and an ova that met randomly.  No deity required...
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 02:39:00 PM
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No prob.  It was just a sperm and an ova that met randomly.  No deity required...

Bow down and worship the sperm, or the ova, depending on your gender confusion ;-)
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 02:42:24 PM
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"Going against the common good" is a human definition, not a religious one.  A religious one would be eating pork or plowing a field on a certain day.  Which makes no human sense as pork is meat and crops need to be planted regardless of the day.

I didn't previously quite realize what a religiously hide-bound nut you were.  But using "GOD" 4 times in one sentence made it clear.  I have to admire the illogic required to state that Being A sent Itself to be a sacrifice to Itself.  Remarkable.  Just think of all the goats and lambs that could have been saved...

Thanx.
The whole point was to show the illogic. I'm glad you caught on.

Kudos

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 02:44:48 PM
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No prob.  It was just a sperm and an ova that met randomly.  No deity required...
Still avoiding where it leads.

Regression stops at the Source.

Do you deny there is a source to existence?
Nothing isn't a source.....nor is evolution; not that I am against the idea or theory or evidence for/ of evolution.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 02:47:28 PM
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Still avoiding where it leads.

Regression stops at the Source.

Do you deny there is a source to existence?
Nothing isn't a source.....nor is evolution; not that I am against the idea or theory or evidence for/ of evolution.

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The unmoved mover ... a U-haul truck broken down on the highway.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mike Cl on August 27, 2018, 02:49:24 PM
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Well, there MIGHT be truth somewhere, but it sure isn't in ancient superstitions about some unknown sky being. 
But one has to define what truth is.  Then that person who supplied the definition might be able to tell you what that truth could be.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 02:57:44 PM
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Still avoiding where it leads.

Regression stops at the Source.

Do you deny there is a source to existence?
Nothing isn't a source.....nor is evolution; not that I am against the idea or theory or evidence for/ of evolution.

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Put most straight-forwardly, "Yes".  No "source" in the sense you mean.  Random chemistry...
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 03:06:33 PM
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Put most straight-forwardly, "Yes".  No "source" in the sense you mean.  Random chemistry...
Now you've gone and done it.

Please show evidence for true  randomness in nature or outside of it.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 03:18:21 PM
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Now you've gone and done it.

Please show evidence for true  randomness in nature or outside of it.

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Sperm and ova DNA mix.  Drawing to an inside straight.  Lottery winner.  Intelligent theist.  The dove the hawk caught.  Seeing a meteor just as once glances out a window.  Parking next to an identical car.  I could go on, but you get the idea I hope.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mike Cl on August 27, 2018, 04:23:31 PM
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Now you've gone and done it.

Please show evidence for true  randomness in nature or outside of it.

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Stepping out into a rain storm, I will be hit by a first raindrop.  There will be trillions upon trillions of raindrops within that storm.  But that one in particular hit me first.  I'd say that would be random.  Or do you think that raindrop was guided by the hand of god???
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Unbeliever on August 27, 2018, 04:28:22 PM
Yeah, guided by the Hand of the Almighty...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLwtqwnI6ko

Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 04:28:41 PM
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Stepping out into a rain storm, I will be hit by a first raindrop.  There will be trillions upon trillions of raindrops within that storm.  But that one in particular hit me first.  I'd say that would be random.  Or do you think that raindrop was guided by the hand of god???

Nothing says "random" better than a raindrop...  I was thinking "snowflakes" earlier, but the term has a political attachment these days. 
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Jason78 on August 27, 2018, 06:42:41 PM
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Oh, but I did read that verses.
I also quoted it.
But lets see what this verse says,
If you hit your slave, and he dies!
You will be executed!

If he does not die, but recovers, but later dies, you are not guilty of murder.

I see you also conveniently forgot verses 26 onwards.
Now why on earth did you read and refer to only HALF A VERSE AND STOPPED SHORT OF ANY OTHER REFERENCES ON HOW TO TREAT A SLAVE?

If I were to do what you do, I will be called a liar!

Do you agree that you tried to mislead by your actions?

We're discussing how well the people that you own as property ought to be treated.

You've already lost the argument.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 07:38:09 PM
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But one has to define what truth is.  Then that person who supplied the definition might be able to tell you what that truth could be.

It isn't what "truthers" or "truthiness" folks think it is.  Those folks are grifters, the very opposite of an honest (truthful) person.  Truth has to do with people, not with ideas.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 07:43:04 PM
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Now you've gone and done it.

Please show evidence for true  randomness in nature or outside of it.

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Unfortunately ... number theory proves you wrong.  Pseudo-random numbers, generated by an algorithm (see Pi) aren't truly random.  Only non-algorithmic (and transcendental) numbers are truly random.  But you can't write one down.  Any numeration implies an algorithm.  However analog nature gets along all the time with these numbers, as well as the algorithmic ones (both pseudo-random and ordered).

What you are trying to articulate ... is an effect which has no cause.  Where cause/effect happens, then events aren't random.  But QM violates this and Relativity twists it.  Cause/effect is a philosophical notion, not a physics idea.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 07:44:00 PM
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Nothing says "random" better than a raindrop...  I was thinking "snowflakes" earlier, but the term has a political attachment these days.

Chaos, not randomness.  They aren't the same.  Dripping faucet provided one of the simplest examples of a chaotic system.  Please spend a decade on chaotic dynamics and get back to us with your findings.  Chaos does produce pure random numbers, but we can't write them down.  And very simple systems produce chaos (turbulence).
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 07:45:28 PM
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Stepping out into a rain storm, I will be hit by a first raindrop.  There will be trillions upon trillions of raindrops within that storm.  But that one in particular hit me first.  I'd say that would be random.  Or do you think that raindrop was guided by the hand of god???

Guided pre-facto or post-facto?  Proper theology says ... post-facto ... which is a circular argument (G-d is history).  Pre-facto is pagan divination.  And that is what physical science does.  Mathematics is pagan divination too, numerology.  Pythagoras was a mage and cult leader.  The primary early use of higher mathematics was astrology.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 08:05:13 PM
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Sperm and ova DNA mix.  Drawing to an inside straight.  Lottery winner.  Intelligent theist.  The dove the hawk caught.  Seeing a meteor just as once glances out a window.  Parking next to an identical car.  I could go on, but you get the idea I hope.
Uhm.....none of that is actually random.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 08:06:32 PM
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Stepping out into a rain storm, I will be hit by a first raindrop.  There will be trillions upon trillions of raindrops within that storm.  But that one in particular hit me first.  I'd say that would be random.  Or do you think that raindrop was guided by the hand of god???
Even if a first actually meant the first of the storm as opposed to the first that hit you it still in no way shows true randomness.



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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 08:07:27 PM
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Nothing says "random" better than a raindrop...  I was thinking "snowflakes" earlier, but the term has a political attachment these days.
I know weather seems sorta random with crappy forecasting but it's not.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 08:10:41 PM
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Unfortunately ... number theory proves you wrong.  Pseudo-random numbers, generated by an algorithm (see Pi) aren't truly random.  Only non-algorithmic (and transcendental) numbers are truly random.  But you can't write one down.  Any numeration implies an algorithm.  However analog nature gets along all the time with these numbers, as well as the algorithmic ones (both pseudo-random and ordered).

What you are trying to articulate ... is an effect which has no cause.  Where cause/effect happens, then events aren't random.  But QM violates this and Relativity twists it.  Cause/effect is a philosophical notion, not a physics idea.
QM does not say that the cause and effect are one and the same.

Nature doesn't use human constructs or descriptors for it's existence or sustinance.

I have yet to see an example of random.

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 08:18:31 PM
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QM does not say that the cause and effect are one and the same.

Nature doesn't use human constructs or descriptors for it's existence or sustinance.

I have yet to see an example of random.

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I didn't say that.  Cause/effect is the phlogiston of philosophy.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: popsthebuilder on August 27, 2018, 08:41:45 PM
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I didn't say that.  Cause/effect is the phlogiston of philosophy.
What's a phlogiston?

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Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 08:48:17 PM
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What's a phlogiston?

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An early discarded theory of heat.  The thought was, that things that burn, contained an invisible fluid called phlogiston, that was released by burning.  Lavoisier and the theory of oxidation (which includes conventional burning) was shown to be better, 100 years later.  To "save appearances" phlogiston theory became so baroque, it was broken.  As happened to "luminiferous ether" theory 100 years later, being replaced by Relativity.  Unfortunately quantum field theory brought back a new form of "luminiferous ether" that is increasingly baroque but not yet broken.

The phrase "Saving appearances" originally appeared in Paradise Lost by John Milton.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mike Cl on August 27, 2018, 10:31:54 PM
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Even if a first actually meant the first of the storm as opposed to the first that hit you it still in no way shows true randomness.



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Really?  And Jesus was real?? :)))  Sure, and Bugs Bunny lives next door to you, right???  'True' randomness; doesn't exist for you does it?  God designed everything, so nothing is random.  Sure, Pops, sure.....................and your meds will be coming soon, just hang on, okay!
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 28, 2018, 06:06:31 AM
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Modern archeology does not attempt to deny anything.  It just provides evidence of what occurred in the past.  For example, there is no evidence of Jewish pottery designs or any other activities in Egypt.  There ARE some suggestions that the Jews spent time in Persia.  The Persian evidence is in the pottery the Jews made when they left. 

They just didn't know where they were, LOL!
Simply because there were no Jews in Egypt.
The people that were in Egypt were Hebrews, who became Israel 400 years after entering Egypt, and who became Israel in 1000 Bc, who became Israel and Judah in 920BC, of who Israel was set in captivity in 721 BC who according to archaeology, never returned, and Judah was taken captive in 605 Bc, out of which only 32 600 returned to Jerusalem 70 years later.
These people became what we call Jews today, who has a lot of Persian, Arab, and Judean cultural influences.
Funny that the archaeologists who dont like the Biblical history, needed the Bible to discover thousands of facts in support to what I just gave you now.

But this for another time.
It would be necessary for me to note that in 1798, Napoleon could find only 23 mentioned cities of the Bible.
And this made the Atheist world shout on how the Bible was a mere story book.
in 1948, over 3 000 topographical places, more than 27 ancient kings, which no one but the Bible knew about, Temple seals, letters on ostracha, inscriptions in mines in Egypt, and thousands more archaeological facts was discovered just as was described in the Bible.

As I said, just for some interesting information.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Jason78 on August 28, 2018, 01:23:58 PM
Anyway, what I want to know is, if I decide to sell my daughter as described in Exodus 21:7, and she displeases her master (Exodus 21:8);

Do I have to give the money back?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on August 28, 2018, 03:44:44 PM
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Anyway, what I want to know is, if I decide to sell my daughter as described in Exodus 21:7, and she displeases her master (Exodus 21:8);

Do I have to give the money back?

If the master makes her pregnant, and he doesn't like the child, then you have to take both of them back ;-)
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hydra009 on August 28, 2018, 06:01:50 PM
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It would be necessary for me to note that in 1798, Napoleon could find only 23 mentioned cities of the Bible.
And this made the Atheist world shout on how the Bible was a mere story book.
in 1948, over 3 000 topographical places, more than 27 ancient kings, which no one but the Bible knew about
If you think that's something, you'd love Marvel comics.  These stories are set in thousands of real places and refer to untold numbers of actual people!

(https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_medium/0/9241/585584-00a01.jpg)
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 29, 2018, 02:05:08 AM
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Anyway, what I want to know is, if I decide to sell my daughter as described in Exodus 21:7, and she displeases her master (Exodus 21:8);

Do I have to give the money back?
Well, if the intend was that she were sold to her master with the intend to marry him, or his son, and she does not please him for some or another reason, she is sent back to her father without any compensation to the person who bought her.

And note that all the laws of Israel are still applicable to her, such as if she gets raped, the rapist will be executed, she must remain a virgin, she can not be sold to other nations, she will be free at the year of sabbath.

I do not see any human rights violations here, except that she was sold as a bondwoman with intend of marriage.
Your mind wants to change it into the purchase of a sex slave.

Why?

Do you see how bias you are?
If I were to do that, you would call me a liar!
So, what right do you have to act in this manner?

To prove my point, you did not even read the posts at the beginning of this thread where I already discussed this verse.

Why?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 29, 2018, 02:25:45 AM
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If you think that's something, you'd love Marvel comics.  These stories are set in thousands of real places and refer to untold numbers of actual people!

(https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_medium/0/9241/585584-00a01.jpg)
With this difference.
Marvel are referring to places that exists, which we all know exists.
The Biblical references was the only one, except perhaps Josephus, that mentioned people, cities, villages that was forgotten during the ages.
Your pre-existing atheist Bible criticizers had a field day over the past 150 years, where they claimed many unsupported references as evidence that the Bible was incorrect.
They were all silenced as archaeology unearthed evidence of thousands of places and people.
For one that studied the archaeological discoveries, and Biblical criticism, it looks like a slaughter-field with the corpses of Bible criticizers exposed over 200 years.

Your Marvel argument is also evidence on how you NEED TO PROVE SOMETHING.
Again, Atheism has less credibility than Superman anyhow.

At least Superman is a figment of imagination of a human with powers making him a Super Human.
Some sort of Greek god you would like to compare with YHWH.

The decade old argument atheists uses as a straw man in an attempt to place mythology equal to Christian theism.
what they completely deny, is the fact that I also do not believe in such a god.

Atheists are actually soothing their conscience in this representation.
Ignoring everything History, archaeology, the Biblical authority, and science shows about the origins of everything.
There are libraries filled with information, evidences, and philosophical publications containing descriptions of who this YHWH really is, yet, the Atheist will steer clear from such discussions, and will use the Mythology, Marvel comics, fairy tale argument.

Silly indeed.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Hydra009 on August 29, 2018, 11:26:33 AM
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The Biblical references was the only one, except perhaps Josephus, that mentioned people, cities, villages that was forgotten during the ages.
Lol.  Nice hedging.  Only one - except perhaps another.  I wonder how much further you'd hedge if I wasted more of my time and really delved into the nitty gritty of this claim.

Quote
Your pre-existing atheist Bible criticizers had a field day over the past 150 years, where they claimed many unsupported references as evidence that the Bible was incorrect.
Yep.  My Bible criticizers.  Sure, they all croaked long before I was born and we may or may not have had much in common, but the important part is not to address individuals and individual claims but to categorize everyone in Team God or Team Satan and treat the whole thing as an Us vs Them war.

Quote
For one that studied the archaeological discoveries, and Biblical criticism, it looks like a slaughter-field with the corpses of Bible criticizers exposed over 200 years.
I'm sure you'd like to believe that.  And thus you do.

Quote
Your Marvel argument is also evidence on how you NEED TO PROVE SOMETHING.
And your NEED TO USE ALL CAPS to give the appearance of PROFUNDITY to what would otherwise look like utter bollocks says a lot about you.

Quote
Again, Atheism has less credibility than Superman anyhow.
Superman is DC, you uncultured barbarian!

Quote
At least Superman is a figment of imagination of a human with powers making him a Super Human.
Some sort of Greek god you would like to compare with YHWH.
Come to think of it, there actually are some parallels.  Dies and comes back to life.  Powerset and characterization that varies depending on the writer.  White for some inexplicable reason.  Boring, yet wildly popular.  I'm sure there are other parallels that I'm missing.

Quote
The decade old argument atheists uses as a straw man in an attempt to place mythology equal to Christian theism.
Mythology compared to mythology.  How devious and unfair of me.

Quote
There are libraries filled with information, evidences, and philosophical publications containing descriptions of who this YHWH really is, yet, the Atheist will steer clear from such discussions, and will use the Mythology, Marvel comics, fairy tale argument.
I love how your constant refrain is that "the atheist" is some sort of moron who denies the obvious truth of the Bible.  It must be nice to have such a simplistic view of the world.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Blackleaf on August 29, 2018, 11:41:35 AM
This guy thinks that the strawman fallacy means "any arguments I don't like." No, that's not what it means. A strawman is when you put words in your opponent's mouth by arguing against a claim your opponent hasn't and wouldn't make. Like a man made of straw, this claim you make up is easily toppled over, making your position seem superior. The fact that I have to explain what a strawman fallacy is shows how inept you really are, Mousedroppings.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Mousetrap on August 30, 2018, 05:08:10 AM
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This guy thinks that the strawman fallacy means "any arguments I don't like." No, that's not what it means. A strawman is when you put words in your opponent's mouth by arguing against a claim your opponent hasn't and wouldn't make. Like a man made of straw, this claim you make up is easily toppled over, making your position seem superior. The fact that I have to explain what a strawman fallacy is shows how inept you really are, Mousedroppings.
Yes, such as taking a comic and pasting it inside a Bible cover.

STRAWMAN! (Cap locks for appearance of PROFUNDITY)
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Jason78 on September 24, 2018, 03:11:42 AM
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I do not see any human rights violations here, except that she was sold as a bondwoman with intend of marriage.

Really?  Is this the way you or your daughter would enjoy being treated?

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Your mind wants to change it into the purchase of a sex slave.

Why?

Do you see how bias you are?
If I were to do that, you would call me a liar!
So, what right do you have to act in this manner?

I've got a problem with people being sold as property full stop.   I didn't mention sex. 

And I'm pretty much an expert on what's going on in my own mind and I can assure you that my mind didn't change it to anything.

I don't have to apologise for my behaviour in a fantasy that is happening in your imagination.

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To prove my point, you did not even read the posts at the beginning of this thread where I already discussed this verse.

Why?


I did read them.

The bible is still condoning slavery.  And so are you.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on October 04, 2018, 05:50:03 AM
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Really?  Is this the way you or your daughter would enjoy being treated?

I've got a problem with people being sold as property full stop.   I didn't mention sex. 

And I'm pretty much an expert on what's going on in my own mind and I can assure you that my mind didn't change it to anything.

I don't have to apologise for my behaviour in a fantasy that is happening in your imagination.

I did read them.

The bible is still condoning slavery.  And so are you.

I agree.  The bible hasn't been changed about slavery.  Or most of its other nonsense either.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2018, 06:27:54 AM
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I agree.  The bible hasn't been changed about slavery.  Or most of its other nonsense either.

The original US Constitution supported slavery.  Burn it.  The amendments from the Civil War were obtained thru duress, they are invalid.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on October 04, 2018, 06:39:29 AM
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The original US Constitution supported slavery.  Burn it.  The amendments from the Civil War were obtained thru duress, they are invalid.

You forget we changed it.  13th Amendment and all that.  When is the last time your bible changed in that way? Yeah, New Testament.  But christians still thought it supported slavery.  And most take it to be literal to this day. 
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2018, 06:43:55 AM
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You forget we changed it.  13th Amendment and all that.  When is the last time your bible changed in that way? Yeah, New Testament.  But christians still thought it supported slavery.  And most take it to be literal to this day.

We didn't.  New England Hell Spawn did.  Not me, not you ... we weren't alive back then.  I feel no obligation to continue the mistakes of my ancestors ... like revolting against King George III.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on October 04, 2018, 07:40:11 AM
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We didn't.  New England Hell Spawn did.  Not me, not you ... we weren't alive back then.  I feel no obligation to continue the mistakes of my ancestors ... like revolting against King George III.

Are you talking about slavery in the Constitution or slavery in the bible?  You really do have to TRY to be precise in such situations.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2018, 12:36:37 PM
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Are you talking about slavery in the Constitution or slavery in the bible?  You really do have to TRY to be precise in such situations.

Both.  Humans do slavery ... to create differential outcomes.  That and other crimes like fraud and theft.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on October 04, 2018, 02:51:14 PM
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Both.  Humans do slavery ... to create differential outcomes.  That and other crimes like fraud and theft.

Just pointing out that the Constitution isn't big on technical slavery these days while the bible hasn't changed much.  Though I might argue that the Republicans wouldn't mind a return to it.  Just being so religious and all, you know.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Blackleaf on October 04, 2018, 02:58:21 PM
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Just pointing out that the Constitution isn't big on technical slavery these days while the bible hasn't changed much.  Though I might argue that the Republicans wouldn't mind a return to it.  Just being so religious and all, you know.

Yeah. The Constitution's "all men are created equal" line was a jab at slavery in America, but it slipped by. It wasn't until much later that America put that into practice (and we're still working on it, to some extent).
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on October 04, 2018, 03:08:26 PM
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Yeah. The Constitution's "all men are created equal" line was a jab at slavery in America, but it slipped by. It wasn't until much later that America put that into practice (and we're still working on it, to some extent).

"All Men are created equal" is from the Declaration Of Independence.  Which is not about laws...  No offense.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2018, 07:19:08 PM
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Just pointing out that the Constitution isn't big on technical slavery these days while the bible hasn't changed much.  Though I might argue that the Republicans wouldn't mind a return to it.  Just being so religious and all, you know.

Republicans use pro-religion for devious reasons.  Democrats use anti-religion for devious reasons.  They have changed places many times.  It keeps the peasants guessing.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Blackleaf on October 06, 2018, 02:52:07 PM
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"All Men are created equal" is from the Declaration Of Independence.  Which is not about laws...  No offense.

God damn it. I keep saying one when I mean the other. I have a habit of doing that kind of thing.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 02:41:55 AM
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God damn it. I keep saying one when I mean the other. I have a habit of doing that kind of thing.

Well, I wasn't happy to point that out.  MY routine error is forgetting to put the "n't" on words I intend to contract.  Making them opposite.  THAT is a real problem in discussions, as you can imagine.  Just imagine how awkward it is to type "does" when you mean "doesn't!

The keyboard is not my friend.  I should look into speech-recognition software.  Any suggestions anyone?
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 04:00:57 AM
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Well, I wasn't happy to point that out.  MY routine error is forgetting to put the "n't" on words I intend to contract.  Making them opposite.  THAT is a real problem in discussions, as you can imagine.  Just imagine how awkward it is to type "does" when you mean "doesn't!

The keyboard is not my friend.  I should look into speech-recognition software.  Any suggestions anyone?

Dragon NaturallySpeaking is what the government uses ... for medical transcription.

My problem is some of my keys are wearing out.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 04:59:18 AM
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Dragon NaturallySpeaking is what the government uses ... for medical transcription.

My problem is some of my keys are wearing out.

Well, keyboards are cheap.  But the good news is better.  Keys can easily be pried off gently and replaced from old keyboards.  Done it myself several times.  And if I can do it, you can do it.

And in case you want to know, the way to clean a keyboard is to spray windex on a damp cloth and turn it upside down to wipe the keys after disconnecting the keyboard.  Looks brand new.
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 08:36:10 AM
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Well, keyboards are cheap.  But the good news is better.  Keys can easily be pried off gently and replaced from old keyboards.  Done it myself several times.  And if I can do it, you can do it.

And in case you want to know, the way to clean a keyboard is to spray windex on a damp cloth and turn it upside down to wipe the keys after disconnecting the keyboard.  Looks brand new.

Your sharing kindness is legendary ;-)
Title: Re: Slavery. The Bible and Quran.
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 12:36:04 PM
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Your sharing kindness is legendary ;-)

It would be cruel of me to fail to share my wisdom.  (koff, koff)