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Humanities Section => Philosophy & Rhetoric General Discussion => Topic started by: Baruch on July 31, 2018, 03:06:39 PM

Title: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Baruch on July 31, 2018, 03:06:39 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymIcYjEnVuc

Part 1 or 25 ... totally insane stuff.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Hydra009 on July 31, 2018, 11:18:48 PM
Yeah, pretty crazy alright.  He's like G Time Johnny + suit - meth.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Baruch on July 31, 2018, 11:56:06 PM
I think it is his ability to be articulate that is amazing, the words aren't random.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Cavebear on August 01, 2018, 02:49:19 AM
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I think it is his ability to be articulate that is amazing, the words aren't random.

So this guy is nuts.  So why did you post about him?  He seems right up your alley, though.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Baruch on August 01, 2018, 01:20:38 PM
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So this guy is nuts.  So why did you post about him?  He seems right up your alley, though.

Haw.  Not all articulate people are insane ... but I might doubt Obama ;-)
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Cavebear on August 04, 2018, 04:22:23 AM
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Haw.  Not all articulate people are insane ... but I might doubt Obama ;-)

Emperor Palpatine says:  You have learned the art of misdirection well, young one".  From my POV, your answer had nothing to do with the post.  No big surprise there.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: SGOS on August 04, 2018, 06:16:09 AM
I listened to him for 3:30 minutes, and then lost interest.  I don't know-don't care if he's a psychopath.  He was going to talk about something, and he was leading up to it, but, every time I thought he was about to get to a point, he got sidetracked by another thought.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Cavebear on August 04, 2018, 06:56:46 AM
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I listened to him for 3:30 minutes, and then lost interest.  I don't know-don't care if he's a psychopath.  He was going to talk about something, and he was leading up to it, but, every time I thought he was about to get to a point, he got sidetracked by another thought.

Psst...  "psychos", "no point", "weird"...

That how they think.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Baruch on August 04, 2018, 08:46:00 AM
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Psst...  "psychos", "no point", "weird"...

That how they think.

Typical human then?  Based on my on-line experience, this seems a universal pattern.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 07:23:56 AM
There's nothing psychopathic about being deluded.

In fact... quite the opposite is true.

Psychopaths are people without conscience.

Robert D. Hare, the world's biggest expert on psychopathy, has said that some people think that psychopaths are "insane", but this is very mistaken. Psychopaths are often highly rational. There's a big difference between being crazy and having no conscience.

Psychopaths often know that what they are doing is wrong and they know why what they're doing is wrong. They simply don't care and are incapable of caring.

They may be morally insane. As "sane" means "of sound mind" and "insane" therefore means "not of sound mind"... and psychopaths are not of sound moral mind, the conscience being the moral mind.

But when it comes to the part of the mind that deals with rationality and logic in general (which is what a lack of sanity seems to be a lack of)... psychopaths are often far from insane. On average they're probably more rational than the average person. Probably because they're rather emotionless and emotions tend to get in the way of rationality.

But there are certainly some highly irrational psychopaths as well. As many of them are so driven by their present urges that they don't think about consequences. But in some ways those people get diagnosed as sociopaths instead. And many think that there is a distinction between psychopathy and sociopathy. Sociopaths tend to be very messed up people... with messed up childhoods. Whereas psychopaths are basically people born with brain damage... but the part of their brain that is born damaged is the part(s) that involves having a conscience.

But even when it comes to irrational sociopaths... it's one thing to merely be irrational by going against your best interest in the long run by not caring about the consequences of your urges being acted upon in the present moment... it's quite another case to be irrational in the sense of having illogical beliefs. Even when it comes to being irrational enough to self-sabotage yourself and ruin your whole life by not caring of the consequences of your actions... that is once again a case of irrationality due to not caring and not due to being incorrect about your beliefs.

Rationality is a lot broader than logic as a lack of rationality also involves not doing what's in your best interest... and moral irrationality involves not caring about morals.

A psychopath can know that what they're doing is objectively bad for them, and know what they are doing to others is objectively wrong, but simply not care... and be incapable of caring.

It's possible to have no false beliefs and simply not care enough.

Psychopaths have an emotional problem... not a logical problem.

If you're talking about someone's being deluded or crazy or psychotic... you're not talking about psychopathy. Psychosis and psychopathy are COMPLETELY different

Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Cavebear on September 27, 2018, 07:28:26 AM
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There's nothing psychopathic about being deluded.

In fact... quite the opposite is true.

Psychopaths are people without conscience.

Robert D. Hare, the world's biggest expert on psychopathy, has said that some people think that psychopaths are "insane", but this is very mistaken. Psychopaths are often highly rational. There's a big difference between being crazy and having no conscience.

Psychopaths often know that what they are doing is wrong and they know why what they're doing is wrong. They simply don't care and are incapable of caring.

They may be morally insane. As "sane" means "of sound mind" and "insane" therefore means "not of sound mind"... and psychopaths are not of sound moral mind, the conscience being the moral mind.

But when it comes to the part of the mind that deals with rationality and logic in general (which is what a lack of sanity seems to be a lack of)... psychopaths are often far from insane. On average they're probably more rational than the average person. Probably because they're rather emotionless and emotions tend to get in the way of rationality.

But there are certainly some highly irrational psychopaths as well. As many of them are so driven by their present urges that they don't think about consequences. But in some ways those people get diagnosed as sociopaths instead. And many think that there is a distinction between psychopathy and sociopathy. Sociopaths tend to be very messed up people... with messed up childhoods. Whereas psychopaths are basically people born with brain damage... but the part of their brain that is born damaged is the part(s) that involves having a conscience.

I have a broader view of "psychopathy". 
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 07:29:54 AM
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I have a broader view of "psychopathy".

Well, you can have whatever view you like but some views are more correct than others.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 07:31:05 AM
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Typical human then?  Based on my on-line experience, this seems a universal pattern.

No... typical humans have a conscience.... even very selfish and awful bullies and violent criminals tend to have their limits. Most people wouldn't torture animals or children for the pure fun of it.

Being deluded is certainly most humans though. Most humans tend to be irrational and wrong about stuff. Many Psychopaths would agree with that  . . .
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Cavebear on September 27, 2018, 07:37:00 AM
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Well, you an have whatever view you like but some views are more correct than others.

Let's discuss that.  I personnally think that all people who willingly commit crimes without provocation are psychopathic.  What is your view about that?
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 27, 2018, 09:57:02 AM
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Let's discuss that.  I personnally think that all people who willingly commit crimes without provocation are psychopathic.  What is your view about that?
You missed the point. HIS views are more correct than others.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Cavebear on September 27, 2018, 10:03:03 AM
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You missed the point. HIS views are more correct than others.

According to whom?  Not I...
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Sal1981 on September 27, 2018, 10:05:13 AM
yeah ... no.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Cavebear on September 27, 2018, 10:06:58 AM
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yeah ... no.

Details would be good.  ;)
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Sal1981 on September 27, 2018, 10:13:11 AM
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Details would be good.  ;)
I don't think he's a psychopath given how he talks about language, I do however think he's either a full-blown schizophrenic or other schizoid personality type. I could only bear to watch 4 minutes of that.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 27, 2018, 10:38:10 AM
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According to whom?  Not I...
Exactly right, not you.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Cavebear on September 27, 2018, 11:40:38 AM
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I don't think he's a psychopath given how he talks about language, I do however think he's either a full-blown schizophrenic or other schizoid personality type. I could only bear to watch 4 minutes of that.

As I said (and will expand upon slightly) my view of psychopath is broad.  It includes sociopaths, and I consider all theists sociopathic in a general way.  Theism is a form of unsanity and it is entirely possible that a majority of the population is therefore unsane,  That has nothing to do with the majority view of reality.  At one time , the majority thought the Earth was flat and immovable.

I won't quibble about the subsets of unsanity.  Today, anyway...

Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 12:34:16 PM
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Let's discuss that.  I personnally think that all people who willingly commit crimes without provocation are psychopathic.  What is your view about that?

My view is that to come to that conclusion you have to be re-defining psychopathy.

The broadest definition of psychopathy that I'm willing to use is that a psychopath is someone "completely without conscience".


Going by that definition it makes no sense to say that anyone who willingly commits crimes without provocation is psychopathic. As some crimes aren't even immoral. And some crimes are completely victimless.

And in some countries, for example, it's illegal to be a homosexual. By your definition... all homosexuals in such a country are psychopaths. I think that's absurd.

Legality has nothing to do with psychopathy.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 12:35:51 PM
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You missed the point. HIS views are more correct than others.

No... some views are more correct than others. Anyone can be wrong sometimes.

But if someone defines psychopathy as an unripened banana then I think it's fair to say that that view is less correct than some other views on psychopathy . . .

To be more specific: Views that make more logical sense are more logically correct than views that make less logical sense. That should be obvious.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Cavebear on September 27, 2018, 12:40:57 PM
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My view is that to come to that conclusion you have to be re-defining psychopathy.

The broadest definition of psychopathy that I'm willing to use is that a psychopath is someone "completely without conscience".


Going by that definition it makes no sense to say that anyone who willingly commits crimes without provocation is psychopathic. As some crimes aren't even immoral. And some crimes are completely victimless.

And in some countries, for example, it's illegal to be a homosexual. By your definition... all homosexuals in such a country are psychopaths. I think that's absurd.

Legality has nothing to do with psychopathy.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Cavebear on September 27, 2018, 12:45:11 PM
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My view is that to come to that conclusion you have to be re-defining psychopathy.

The broadest definition of psychopathy that I'm willing to use is that a psychopath is someone "completely without conscience".


Going by that definition it makes no sense to say that anyone who willingly commits crimes without provocation is psychopathic. As some crimes aren't even immoral. And some crimes are completely victimless.

And in some countries, for example, it's illegal to be a homosexual. By your definition... all homosexuals in such a country are psychopaths. I think that's absurd.

Legality has nothing to do with psychopathy.

I neither mentioned legality (an artificial social construct) nor homosexuality. 
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 12:50:37 PM
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I neither mentioned legality (an artificial social construct) nor homosexuality.

It is untrue that you didn't mention legality.

You said that psychopaths are people who willingly commit crimes without provocation.

I pointed out that not only is that not what psychopathy is, but in some countries it is illegal to be a homosexual, so by your definition homosexuals in those countries are psychopaths because they are willingly committing crimes without provocation. So your definition leads to absurdity.

It has nothing to do with crimes. And to suggest that crimes have nothing to do with legality is absurd. If legality were not a thing illegality wouldn't be a thing and crimes wouldn't be a thing.

Yes, legality (and crimes) is (are) a purely social construct. That helps my point, not yours. Psychopathy is a lack of conscience. It has nothing to do with legality, crimes or social constructs.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Cavebear on September 27, 2018, 12:55:37 PM
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It is untrue that you didn't mention legality.

You said that psychopaths are people who willingly commit crimes without provocation.

I pointed out that not only is that not what psychopathy is, but in some countries it is illegal to be a homosexual, so by your definition homosexuals in those countries are psychopaths because they are willingly committing crimes without provocation. So your definition leads to absurdity.

It has nothing to do with crimes. And to suggest that crimes have nothing to do with legality is absurd. If legality were not a thing illegality wouldn't be a thing and crimes wouldn't be a thing.

Yes, legality (and crimes) is (are) a purely social construct. That helps my point, not yours. Psychopathy is a lack of conscience. It has nothing to do with legality, crimes or social constructs.

Perhaps I should have said "unethical acts".  "Crimes" in some places are not crimes in others.  Sorry.  I tend to think of "crimes against humanity".
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 02:32:02 PM
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Perhaps I should have said "unethical acts".  "Crimes" in some places are not crimes in others.  Sorry.  I tend to think of "crimes against humanity".

Ah.

But then, what about incredibly minor ethical acts? Would you consider anyone who willingly engages in a very very minor unethical act to be a psychopath? Because I think that's pretty much everyone! Is anyone really morally perfect? And doesn't your view lead to the idea that because almost no one is morally perfect, (or no one is morally perfect), then almost everyone is a psychopath (or everyone is a psychopath)?

Or do you mean that you think that anyone who engages in severe unethical acts, is a psychopath?

Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Cavebear on September 27, 2018, 02:36:44 PM
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Ah.

But then, what about incredibly minor ethical acts? Would you consider anyone who willingly engages in a very very minor unethical act to be a psychopath? Because I think that's pretty much everyone! Is anyone really morally perfect? And doesn't your view lead to the idea that because almost no one is morally perfect, (or no one is morally perfect), then almost everyone is a psychopath (or everyone is a psychopath)?

Or do you mean that you think that anyone who engages in severe unethical acts, is a psychopath?

The later assuredly.  The minor stuff, possibly, but not all unethical acts are considered crimes equally everywhere.  Some acts are almost universally considered crimes.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 03:18:19 PM
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The later assuredly.  The minor stuff, possibly, but not all unethical acts are considered crimes equally everywhere.  Some acts are almost universally considered crimes.

How is what is considered to be ethical or unethical relevant?

Otherwise we just go back to my point about the fact that in some societies homosexuality is considered a crime, and not a minor one either, and under your definition of psychopathy that would mean that homosexuals are psychopaths in those societies... if you are to continue to give credence to the fact that different societies have different views on what is and isn't a crime.

Is what is considered to be ethical or unethical in different societies relevant?

Now, if we go to your point about some acts being almost universally considered crimes...

If I am to steelman your position... we could say that: you think someone is a psychopath if they willingly engage in a moral crime that is almost universally considered to be a moral crime across almost all societies, how would you feel about that representation of your position? Would you say that that is what you are trying to say?

Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Baruch on September 28, 2018, 05:06:16 AM
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No... some views are more correct than others. Anyone can be wrong sometimes.

But if someone defines psychopathy as an unripened banana then I think it's fair to say that that view is less correct than some other views on psychopathy . . .

To be more specific: Views that make more logical sense are more logically correct than views that make less logical sense. That should be obvious.

Psychopathy isn't a logical proposition.  It is a medical condition.  It comes in several flavors.  This guy (in the video) is very loquacious ... but seems quite irrational to me (in the medical sense).  You are speaking like a Vulcan.  That could be a symptom of something.  I was like that once upon a time.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Baruch on September 28, 2018, 05:11:32 AM
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Ah.

But then, what about incredibly minor ethical acts? Would you consider anyone who willingly engages in a very very minor unethical act to be a psychopath? Because I think that's pretty much everyone! Is anyone really morally perfect? And doesn't your view lead to the idea that because almost no one is morally perfect, (or no one is morally perfect), then almost everyone is a psychopath (or everyone is a psychopath)?

Or do you mean that you think that anyone who engages in severe unethical acts, is a psychopath?

PS - on another thread, there was a 3 parter on Youtube on what the current definitions of psychopathy are.  But most posters here are lay people, not doctors.  It would seem you are up on your DSM V.

I think that Sal1981 nailed this particular diagnosis, yesterday, in this string.  I also use words, creatively.  But I see that as an opportunity for correction and education.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Cavebear on October 01, 2018, 08:52:20 AM
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How is what is considered to be ethical or unethical relevant?

Otherwise we just go back to my point about the fact that in some societies homosexuality is considered a crime, and not a minor one either, and under your definition of psychopathy that would mean that homosexuals are psychopaths in those societies... if you are to continue to give credence to the fact that different societies have different views on what is and isn't a crime.

Is what is considered to be ethical or unethical in different societies relevant?

Now, if we go to your point about some acts being almost universally considered crimes...

If I am to steelman your position... we could say that: you think someone is a psychopath if they willingly engage in a moral crime that is almost universally considered to be a moral crime across almost all societies, how would you feel about that representation of your position? Would you say that that is what you are trying to say?

There being no actual deity, morals ("sins") do not exist.  All is humanistic ethics.  So only ethics are relevant...

Your definition of "crimes" seems rather religious, which is why I expect that you will eventually reveal yourself as a theist.  It will take some time.

And your assumption that "crimes" are constant across all cultures suggests to me that, that even if you THINK you are an atheist, you are not.  I would happy to be wrong, but I would be surprised.
 
And, in further support of my suspicion, I will note that you keep referring to "morals" rather than "ethics".  That is very typical of theists.

Enjoy...
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: luckswallowsall on October 04, 2018, 10:48:05 AM
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Psychopathy isn't a logical proposition.  It is a medical condition.  It comes in several flavors.  This guy (in the video) is very loquacious ... but seems quite irrational to me (in the medical sense).  You are speaking like a Vulcan.  That could be a symptom of something.  I was like that once upon a time.

The truth of what you say regarding psychopathy being a medical condition goes in favor of what I was saying, not what you were saying. I am saying that psychosis and delusions is not the same thing as psychopathy and the fact that psychopathy is a medical condition doesn't mean that it's a completely different medical condition to what it actually is. Psychopathy and psychosis are indeed completely different, as I said.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: luckswallowsall on October 04, 2018, 10:50:25 AM
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PS - on another thread, there was a 3 parter on Youtube on what the current definitions of psychopathy are.  But most posters here are lay people, not doctors.  It would seem you are up on your DSM V.

Whether we are talking about the pathology of psychopathy, or the medical condition of sociopathy/ASBD, or merely the notion of a psychopath being a person without a conscience... we are not talking about psychosis. And there is literally no sense in which psychopathy refers to psychosis or being delusional.
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: luckswallowsall on October 04, 2018, 10:58:32 AM
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There being no actual deity, morals ("sins") do not exist.  All is humanistic ethics.  So only ethics are relevant...

You were the one using "crime" to refer to "moral crime" rather than legal crime after I said that your definition of psychopathy led to law breaking=psychopathy which is absurd. I never suggested anything religious.

Quote
Your definition of "crimes" seems rather religious, which is why I expect that you will eventually reveal yourself as a theist.  It will take some time.

I didn't give a definition of crime besides legality, you did. And you only did it after I criticized your view that those that willingly commit crimes are psychopaths. You're the one with the made-up definition of a crime, not me.

Quote
And your assumption that "crimes" are constant across all cultures suggests to me that, that even if you THINK you are an atheist, you are not.

I never said that crimes are constant across cultures. Again, you were the one with the alternative definition of crime, not me. I said that whether crimes differ across cultures or not is irrelevant as you are the one claiming that psychopaths are people who willingly commit crimes, not me.

Quote

 I would happy to be wrong, but I would be surprised.
 
And, in further support of my suspicion, I will note that you keep referring to "morals" rather than "ethics".  That is very typical of theists.

Enjoy...

So far throughout my stay on this forum you have shown yourself to be both irrational and very fond of misrepresenting what I say... a quality which is much more in common with theists.

Morals have nothing to do with atheism or theism. Just like philosophical determinism has nothing to do with atheism or theism... despite what you say on another thread.

And, ironically, your peculiar and irrational insistence that certain things that have nothing to do with god imply a god show more of a sign that you're the theistically inclined one here... as if you really think all those things imply theism then it would take far less of a change in views for you to become a theist than for me.

Furthermore, and further ironically, you suggest that morals are theistic and yet you were the one who said that a psychopath was someone who commits a moral crime, not me... so that would make you theistic under your own terms (and even more hilariously, you only changed your definition of crime like that after I showed that what you were saying under the normal definition leads to an absurd conclusion).
Title: Re: Anyone encounter this psychopath before?
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2018, 07:46:02 PM
luckswallowsall ... you shadow box a lot.  Part of PE in college?