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Humanities Section => Philosophy & Rhetoric General Discussion => Topic started by: Baruch on July 21, 2018, 02:19:20 AM

Title: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Baruch on July 21, 2018, 02:19:20 AM
https://vimeo.com/136355241

A great many people are Platonists ... and we are the worse for it.  Christian theology was originally formed out of Platonism
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 07:15:02 AM
Kant greatly built on top of Platonism.

Rationalism is indeed rational There's no problem with that.

Empricism is important too. And indeed rational.

Kant is famous primarily for uniting empiricism and rationalism together.

Kant's concept of noumenal reality is a great improvement on Plato's world of ideals.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on September 27, 2018, 07:21:33 AM
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Kant greatly built on top of Platonism.

Rationalism is indeed rational There's no problem with that.

Empricism is important too. And indeed rational.

Kant is famous primarily for uniting empiricism and rationalism together.

Kant's concept of noumenal reality is a great improvement on Plato's world of ideals.

I took a online test recently.  I'm 100% Kant and 75% Hume.  The choices were defined by the test-givers of course.  But I expect it is close to accurate.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 07:48:19 AM
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I took a online test recently.  I'm 100% Kant and 75% Hume.  The choices were defined by the test-givers of course.  But I expect it is close to accurate.

I did either the same test or a similar test a few years ago. I'm not sure where it is though.

This one, on the matter of morality, is good:

http://www.philosophyexperiments.com/moralityplay/

But I think my moral values have improved due to becoming more nuanced... and years ago I used to have 100% consistency but now my consistency has lessered (according to the test)... but I think this is just because the test can definitely not incoroporate the nuance I have since developed. As it's a nuance that is highly electic and 99% of the philosophical community don't accept... so it won't really be addressed in the test.

If I go back to my standard utilitarian views I can easily get 100% consistency on this test... but I have since seen objections to utilitarianism. But I am still a consequentialist. So this is something the test has trouble making sense of.

But if you're a Utilitarian, virtue ethicist, deontologist or some combination of those three... then the test is a great one.

Or if you're a moral nihilist or moral relativist it should be fine as well.

Here's my favorite philosophical test of all though:

http://www.philosophyexperiments.com/stayingalive/Default.aspx
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 07:49:41 AM
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I took a online test recently.  I'm 100% Kant and 75% Hume.  The choices were defined by the test-givers of course.  But I expect it is close to accurate.

If you expect that 100% Kant is accurate... then doesn't this mean you think that some behavior is objectively right and wrong regardless of the consequences? Is that so?
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on September 27, 2018, 07:54:25 AM
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I did either the same test or a similar test a few years ago. I'm not sure where it is though.

This one, on the matter of morality, is good:

http://www.philosophyexperiments.com/moralityplay/

But I think my moral values have improved due to becoming more nuanced... and years ago I used to have 100% consistency but now my consistency has lessered (according to the test)... but I think this is just because the test can definitely not incoroporate the nuance I have since developed. As it's a nuance that is highly electic and 99% of the philosophical community don't accept... so it won't really be addressed in the test.

If I go back to my standard utilitarian views I can easily get 100% consistency on this test... but I have since seen objections to utilitarianism. But I am still a consequentialist. So this is something the test has trouble making sense of.

But if you're a Utilitarian, virtue ethicist, deontologist or some combination of those three... then the test is a great one.

Or if you're a moral nihilist or moral relativist it should be fine as well.

Here's my favorite philosophical test of all though:

http://www.philosophyexperiments.com/stayingalive/Default.aspx

What results did you get on the test?  You avoided that.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on September 27, 2018, 07:58:04 AM
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If you expect that 100% Kant is accurate... then doesn't this mean you think that some behavior is objectively right and wrong regardless of the consequences? Is that so?

No.  The "objectively right and wrong regardless of the consequences? Is that so?" is a typical theist trick.  Nice try.

Bye bye...
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Shiranu on September 27, 2018, 09:45:05 AM
Bleh, Plato and Kant. Give me Camus and Sartre any day over them.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on September 27, 2018, 09:53:19 AM
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Bleh, Plato and Kant. Give me Camus and Sartre any day over them.

I give no value to Plato the mystic...

And as the philosophy students said in the 60s "Neitchze was peachy but Sartre is smarter"  But those were more modern, and I see nothing sensible in either. 

Just my opinion, of course.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Sal1981 on September 27, 2018, 09:56:49 AM
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I did either the same test or a similar test a few years ago. I'm not sure where it is though.

This one, on the matter of morality, is good:

http://www.philosophyexperiments.com/moralityplay/ (http://www.philosophyexperiments.com/moralityplay/)
I scored 54% parsimonious morality. I guess it's because I look more at a practical applications, as well as in-group/out-group relations, than absolutist moral principles.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on September 27, 2018, 10:05:27 AM
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I scored 54% parsimonious morality. I guess it's because I look more at a practical applications, as well as in-group/out-group relations, than absolutist moral principles.

"Morality" is religious; "ethics" are human.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 05:04:00 PM
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What results did you get on the test?  You avoided that.

I didn't avoid it. I can't remember what my results were... it was a long time ago that I took them.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Shiranu on September 27, 2018, 05:20:11 PM
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I give no value to Plato the mystic...

And as the philosophy students said in the 60s "Neitchze was peachy but Sartre is smarter"  But those were more modern, and I see nothing sensible in either. 

Just my opinion, of course.

"If I became a philosopher, if I have so keenly sought this fame for which I'm still waiting, it's all been to seduce women basically." - Sartre

Seems pretty sensible to me :P.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 05:28:45 PM
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"If I became a philosopher, if I have so keenly sought this fame for which I'm still waiting, it's all been to seduce women basically." - Sartre

Seems pretty sensible to me :P.

Sounds like a hoaxed quote...

If he said that... and he wasn't joking.... no wonder his existentialism is a load of nonsense.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Shiranu on September 27, 2018, 05:57:28 PM
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Sounds like a hoaxed quote...

If he said that... and he wasn't joking.... no wonder his existentialism is a load of nonsense.

I would assume it was a joke, though likely with a tinge of truth to it.

But on existentialism, what exactly is nonsense?

There are things I don't agree with, but at most it's stuff I just don't philosophically agree with rather than making an objective statement that it is wrong.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Baruch on September 28, 2018, 05:17:59 AM
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I didn't avoid it. I can't remember what my results were... it was a long time ago that I took them.

Unless you retake them, and share them, then your contribution in this case is ... underdetermined.

On Sartre etc ... they were French, so of course they thought with their gonads ;-)
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on October 01, 2018, 08:28:32 AM
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Sounds like a hoaxed quote...

If he said that... and he wasn't joking.... no wonder his existentialism is a load of nonsense.

All I can say is that many sites discussing philosophy accept this quote as real.  And yes he was full of crap.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on October 01, 2018, 08:40:27 AM
But I found this interesting site, [http://airshipdaily.com/blog/10-philosophers-summed-up-in-a-single-sentence} that said Kant basically said "Good decision-making is based on understanding the universal moral impact of your choices, and if you don’t consider this, you are likely a selfish jerk or possibly Ayn Rand."

Yep, they nailed me...  Except I would say "ethical" rather than "moral".
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: luckswallowsall on October 04, 2018, 11:06:24 AM
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But on existentialism, what exactly is nonsense?

Well, when it comes to existentialism of the Sartre brand the following is nonsense:  his notion of "existence precedes essence", his notion of "nothingness" that our supposed "freedom" comes out of and  his notion that we are "condemned to be free".
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on October 04, 2018, 12:14:49 PM
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Well, when it comes to existentialism of the Sartre brand the following is nonsense:  his notion of "existence precedes essence", his notion of "nothingness" that our supposed "freedom" comes out of and  his notion that we are "condemned to be free".

I once read that there is nothing worse than arguing with a philosophy student.  Now I know why.  They know everything, but also know nothing.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Hydra009 on October 04, 2018, 12:16:09 PM
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Well, when it comes to existentialism of the Sartre brand the following is nonsense:  his notion of "existence precedes essence", his notion of "nothingness" that our supposed "freedom" comes out of and  his notion that we are "condemned to be free".
"existence precedes essence" essentially means that humans do not inherently have any meaning or purpose in life, and are thus free to pursue their own meaning and purpose.

"condemned to be free" essentially means that humans always free to make choices in their lives - they can wake up and go to work, stay home, fly to Australia, etc.  And they can neither delegate nor escape these choices.  Your boss can demand you come in all he wants, but it's still up to you as to whether or not you actually show up.

What's wrong with either idea?

Obviously, I express some skepticism on how much humans are truly free to make choices and on whether or not life even has any purpose, but imo neither idea is particularly heinous (quite the opposite, given the competition) nor horribly factually wrong.

Imo, it may be wrong in the sense that the statement that sun rises.  It describes a real phenomenon in a somewhat mistaken way, but I can easily see how someone would get the wrong impression from that vantage point, so it's easy to let it slide.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on October 04, 2018, 12:19:01 PM
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"existence precedes essence" essentially means that humans do not inherently have any meaning or purpose in life, and are thus free to pursue their own meaning and purpose.

"condemned to be free" essentially means that humans always free to make choices in their lives - they can wake up and go to work, stay home, fly to Australia, etc.  And they can neither delegate nor escape these choices.  Your boss can demand you come in all he wants, but it's still up to you as to whether or not you actually show up.

What's wrong with either idea?

Obviously, I express some skepticism on how much humans are truly free to make choices and on whether or not life even has any purpose, but imo neither idea is particularly heinous (quite the opposite, given the competition) nor horribly factually wrong.

Imo, it may be wrong in the sense that the statement that sun rises.  It describes a real phenomenon in a somewhat mistaken way, but I can easily see how someone would get the wrong impression from that vantage point, so it's easy to let it slide.

When someone says "condemned to be free, I feel pretty free to ignore them after that, LOL!
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2018, 12:55:39 PM
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Well, when it comes to existentialism of the Sartre brand the following is nonsense:  his notion of "existence precedes essence", his notion of "nothingness" that our supposed "freedom" comes out of and  his notion that we are "condemned to be free".

That shows you are a most definite opinion on this subject.  But it is without specific justification.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2018, 12:56:29 PM
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I once read that there is nothing worse than arguing with a philosophy student.  Now I know why.  They know everything, but also know nothing.

Socrates started that trend ;-)
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2018, 12:59:11 PM
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When someone says "condemned to be free, I feel pretty free to ignore them after that, LOL!

Sartre said that in the context of being a French resistor to Nazi occupation.  Namely ... he could choose to do something about the occupation, or not ... but that didn't change the fact of the Nazi occupation.  Aka .. you can't flee responsibility for your actions, or even your inactions.  And that responsibility is a tyranny.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Hydra009 on October 04, 2018, 01:11:49 PM
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When someone says "condemned to be free, I feel pretty free to ignore them after that, LOL!
And when someone inadvertently admits that they're afraid of differing points of view?
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2018, 01:16:32 PM
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And when someone inadvertently admits that they're afraid of differing points of view?

Then they join Hamlet, as a nut in a shell.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on October 04, 2018, 01:21:06 PM
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And when someone inadvertently admits that they're afraid of differing points of view?

Inadvertently?  I almost glory in it.  I'm perfect.  Differing opinions are All wrong...  ;)
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Hydra009 on October 04, 2018, 01:27:16 PM
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Inadvertently?  I almost glory in it.  I'm perfect.  Differing opinions are All wrong...  ;)
(https://i.imgur.com/PvybUDM.jpg)
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on October 04, 2018, 01:39:59 PM
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(https://i.imgur.com/PvybUDM.jpg)

The perfect color is Hunter Green, the best music is Pachel's Canon in D, the best flavor is vanilla ice cream with sliced peaches, the best  bird egg color is Robin's Egg Blue, the best cat is a secret to me so I don't anger the other two...
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Unbeliever on October 04, 2018, 01:54:32 PM
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But I found this interesting site, [http://airshipdaily.com/blog/10-philosophers-summed-up-in-a-single-sentence} that said Kant basically said "Good decision-making is based on understanding the universal moral impact of your choices, and if you don’t consider this, you are likely a selfish jerk or possibly Ayn Rand."

Yep, they nailed me...  Except I would say "ethical" rather than "moral".


LOL! I like the one they have for Plato:

Quote
10. Plato

Poetry is deceptive, god-awful artifice that is totally perverted and completely skews our sense of reality — and while we’re at it, democracy is total bullshit and should be overthrown by philosopher kings who will lord over cities with their big, pulsating brains full of knowledge and righteousness forever. (Shout-out to Socrates: Miss you, bro.)


Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on October 04, 2018, 02:15:57 PM
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LOL! I like the one they have for Plato:

Yeah they got Plato for a fact.  One thing the Greek philosophers never figured out was that democracy meant "everyone" and that slavery was sort of a bad idea...
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2018, 07:36:17 PM
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Yeah they got Plato for a fact.  One thing the Greek philosophers never figured out was that democracy meant "everyone" and that slavery was sort of a bad idea...

Greece was a bad idea.  Ask Persia.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 03:26:18 AM
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Greece was a bad idea.  Ask Persia.

Well democracy had to start somewhere.  And it seems likely it had to start where there was not already and an existing central Govt.  Otherwise, they wouldn't have had the freedom to create so really radical ideas.  Govts HATE radical ideas.  Only a bunch of unruly ungoverned peoples could have thought up the idea.  And then try to kill each other off to make it work for a while. 
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 04:10:41 AM
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Well democracy had to start somewhere.  And it seems likely it had to start where there was not already and an existing central Govt.  Otherwise, they wouldn't have had the freedom to create so really radical ideas.  Govts HATE radical ideas.  Only a bunch of unruly ungoverned peoples could have thought up the idea.  And then try to kill each other off to make it work for a while.

Correct.  A strong central government like Egypt, Babylon etc and no Greek culture.  Their geography perhaps more than their ethnicity, is to blame, that they didn't have the benefit of totalitarianism (except for Sparta).
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 04:32:24 AM
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Correct.  A strong central government like Egypt, Babylon etc and no Greek culture.  Their geography perhaps more than their ethnicity, is to blame, that they didn't have the benefit of totalitarianism (except for Sparta).

Almost correct.  Ethnicity had nothing to do with it.  It was isolated geography, mostly.  And the Spartans developed their slavery anti-hedonism on their own.  Don't read a lot of history, do you?
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 08:44:21 AM
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Almost correct.  Ethnicity had nothing to do with it.  It was isolated geography, mostly.  And the Spartans developed their slavery anti-hedonism on their own.  Don't read a lot of history, do you?

I am listening to a interview with a biography author as I type.  You are so ...
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 10:06:17 AM
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I am listening to a interview with a biography author as I type.  You are so ...

And, curiously, I am listening to a couple of atheists making mincemeat of theist callers to their show.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 11:33:26 AM
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And, curiously, I am listening to a couple of atheists making mincemeat of theist callers to their show.

Yawn.  Dumb theists vs dumb atheists.  Though not all are.  The smart person of any kind, is hard to find.  To the young, all the old arguments are new.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 12:27:27 PM
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Yawn.  Dumb theists vs dumb atheists.  Though not all are.  The smart person of any kind, is hard to find.  To the young, all the old arguments are new.

The atheist arguments were old because the theist arguments were old.  The challengers were the theists andd none of them made a dent in the atheist arguments.  And had the atheists made a weak argument, I would have called them on it with no hesitation.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 01:37:12 PM
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The atheist arguments were old because the theist arguments were old.  The challengers were the theists andd none of them made a dent in the atheist arguments.  And had the atheists made a weak argument, I would have called them on it with no hesitation.

Yes, atheism as we know it dates to 500 BCE.  Old enough.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 02:12:22 PM
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Yes, atheism as we know it dates to 500 BCE.  Old enough.

Atheism predates all theisms.  Before there was any theism, there had to be no theism.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 02:43:38 PM
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Atheism predates all theisms.  Before there was any theism, there had to be no theism.

Looking to ... before writing ... isn't empirical.  Cave man graves disprove your view.  Before we were human, we had no culture, so no religion.  But using pre-human hominids as examples ... is irrelevant.  Certainly once you had riverine early civilizations, religion got a state-subsidized boost.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 02:46:28 PM
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Looking to ... before writing ... isn't empirical.  Cave man graves disprove your view.  Before we were human, we had no culture, so no religion.  But using pre-human hominids as examples ... is irrelevant.  Certainly once you had riverine early civilizations, religion got a state-subsidized boost.

Theism is a thought structure created by humans.  Therefore there had to be a time before it.  QED...
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 02:47:31 PM
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Theism is a thought structure created by humans.  Therefore there had to be a time before it.  QED...

For bears and other non-humans.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 03:47:09 PM
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For bears and other non-humans.

And not for humans?  You disappoint me Burach.  But BTW, Scientific American showed that bears are actually some of the dumbest mammals for their size (July 2018 page 58)

Forgive me if I don't change my avatar.  I'm smarter than the average bear.  ;)
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 07:48:31 PM
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And not for humans?  You disappoint me Burach.  But BTW, Scientific American showed that bears are actually some of the dumbest mammals for their size (July 2018 page 58)

Forgive me if I don't change my avatar.  I'm smarter than the average bear.  ;)

OK, as long as you don't have a gay relationship with BooBoo or steal picnic baskets.
Title: Re: The methodological emptiness of rationalism and the arrogance of certainty
Post by: Cavebear on October 10, 2018, 02:15:12 AM
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OK, as long as you don't have a gay relationship with BooBoo or steal picnic baskets.

Boo Boo was always honorable and rule-abiding.