Hi! I'm in the minority on this forum because of my Faith, yet I don't mind. I probably wouldn't be writing this if I did. Thanks for allowing me.
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 17, 2018, 06:49:50 PM
Hi! I'm in the minority on this forum because of my Faith, yet I don't mind. I probably wouldn't be writing this if I did. Thanks for allowing me.
Welcome. I am a token theist. Maybe a Tolkien theist ;-)
Welcome, Wings. Hope your stay is fruitful and interesting for you.
Thanks a lot! ðŸ™,
Oh boy. Welcome.
Hi WingsofRefuge! I hope you have fun here - we do!
"Is it a fighter? Or is it food?"
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on July 17, 2018, 07:38:31 PM
"Is it a fighter? Or is it food?"
We have mouse droppings all over the room, maybe a nice hawk would help......meh, probably a f-in pigeon.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on July 17, 2018, 07:38:31 PM
"Is it a fighter? Or is it food?"
Talking about me? ðŸ™, Probably either
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 17, 2018, 08:04:54 PM
Talking about me? ðŸ™, Probably either
Having a thick skin along with a sense of humor ... makes you a fighter. Don't let the people here use you as a food group.
Quote from: Baruch on July 17, 2018, 08:39:40 PM
Having a thick skin along with a sense of humor ... makes you a fighter. Don't let the people here use you as a food group.
Thank you! ðŸ™,ðŸ™,ðŸ™,
Hi! I hope you like cute little mikos, because here's one!
I have three questions for you. We use this to get a feel for new members.
1) How many soft tacos have you eaten?
2) How many crunchy tacos have you eaten?
3) Why?
Quote from: Hydra009 on July 17, 2018, 11:07:58 PM
I have three questions for you. We use this to get a feel for new members.
1) How many soft tacos have you eaten?
2) How many crunchy tacos have you eaten?
3) Why?
And do you say grace before either one? Why?
Hello. As long as you follow the rules, you are welcome here.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on July 18, 2018, 12:35:05 AM
Hello. As long as you follow the rules, you are welcome here.
"Disrespect the law, and you disrespect me." :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvJiYrRcfQo
Welcome to your demise new home with many atheist friends.
Have a good stay ;)
Greetings, Wings. Why don't you tell us a little about yourself? It's clear you're a Christian, but what brand of Christian, and how long have you been that way? What do you hope to get out of this forum?
Welcome Wing.
Is it left wing, right wing or buffalo wing?
Quote from: PickelledEggs on July 18, 2018, 12:35:05 AM
Hello. As long as you follow the rules, you are welcome here.
Ignore the faux admin.
Hello Wing.
Great to have another free thinking Christian here.
You are welcome since the forum is not a peer review, which would immediately send you a rejection letter upon receiving any nonsensical gibberish. Here theists can expound from their soap boxes about their fantasies without fear of actual ejection. You will be questioned and poked by members, but bans seldom happen until one of the mods has a bad day. There are rules for behavior you can read, but as near as I can tell, they don't mean anything, are interpreted inconsistently, and seldom enforced.
This is partly in deference to members who like to toy with delusional types. But at least half the forum will just ignore you. Some will make a big deal about ignoring you. Others will just ignore you.
Quote from: SGOS on July 18, 2018, 06:58:10 AM
You are welcome since the forum is not a peer review, which would immediately send you a rejection letter upon receiving any nonsensical gibberish. Here theists can expound from their soap boxes about their fantasies without fear of actual ejection. You will be questioned and poked by members, but bans seldom happen until one of the mods has a bad day. There are rules for behavior you can read, but as near as I can tell, they don't mean anything, are interpreted inconsistently, and seldom enforced.
This is partly in deference to members who like to toy with delusional types. But at least half the forum will just ignore you. Some will make a big deal about ignoring you. Others will just ignore you.
You forgot both the <sarc> and <irony> labels.
Quote from: pr126 on July 18, 2018, 05:14:43 AM
Welcome Wing.
Is it left wing, right wing or buffalo wing?
everything is left compared to you, pr
Quote from: Mousetrap on July 18, 2018, 05:48:52 AM
Hello Wing.
Great to have another free thinking Christian here.
Another?? :huh:
Hello, enjoy reading & posting.
Quote from: Hydra009 on July 17, 2018, 11:07:58 PM
I have three questions for you. We use this to get a feel for new members.
1) How many soft tacos have you eaten?
2) How many crunchy tacos have you eaten?
3) Why?
I will answer this question seriously, even though it probably wasn't meant to be taken that way. ðŸ™,
My answer: I have no idea.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 18, 2018, 01:58:20 AM
Greetings, Wings. Why don't you tell us a little about yourself? It's clear you're a Christian, but what brand of Christian, and how long have you been that way? What do you hope to get out of this forum?
Well I grew up going to church, and was changed at the age of 8. I don't really go by a title... I believe in "By grace through faith", and in relationship not religion. At least that's what I strive toward...
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 18, 2018, 11:12:52 AM
I will answer this question seriously, even though it probably wasn't meant to be taken that way. ðŸ™,
My answer: I have no idea.
I am dead serious about tacos. I would never discuss them in a joking or frivolous way.
Please answer the question as candidly and thoroughly as humanly possible.
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 18, 2018, 11:19:23 AM
Well I grew up going to church, and was changed at the age of 8. I don't really go by a title... I believe in "By grace through faith", and in relationship not religion. At least that's what I strive toward...
I go by 'grace through reason', not by faith. Well, I don't do 'grace' either. How about goodness through reason. Do good because it makes sense, not because of some skydaddy.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 18, 2018, 11:40:10 AM
I go by 'grace through reason', not by faith. Well, I don't do 'grace' either. How about goodness through reason. Do good because it makes sense, not because of some skydaddy.
Well, thankfully the "grace through faith" isn't so much about me. Since, honestly, I have a tough time with faith
I have all kinds of faith, just none of the religious kind.
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 18, 2018, 11:52:07 AM
Well, thankfully the "grace through faith" isn't so much about me. Since, honestly, I have a tough time with faith
Yeah, me too. Frankly that was one of the big hurdles I just could not get over. Belief and faith. If a creator god wanted me to have those then that god should have no problem making it obvious that that is what it wanted. As of today, I have not seen any evidence that any such god (or any other) exists, much less wants something from me.
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 18, 2018, 11:19:23 AM
Well I grew up going to church, and was changed at the age of 8. I don't really go by a title... I believe in "By grace through faith", and in relationship not religion. At least that's what I strive toward...
Ah yes. I've heard that "relationship, not a religion" thing many times. I used to say that myself. I was one of those Christians who dedicated my life to serving God both in and out of church. I had my born-again experience back in 2008 when I was eighteen years old. Eventually, however, after years of serving in more ministries than I could count, I came to realize that the relationship was entirely one-sided and unhealthy. I wouldn't stay with a girlfriend like that, much less worship a god like that.
Anyway, welcome to the forums. You didn't answer my last question, though. What do you hope to get out of these forums?
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 18, 2018, 12:32:18 PM
Ah yes. I've heard that "relationship, not a religion" thing many times. I used to say that myself. I was one of those Christians who dedicated my life to serving God both in and out of church. I had my born-again experience back in 2008 when I was eighteen years old. Eventually, however, after years of serving in more ministries than I could count, I came to realize that the relationship was entirely one-sided and unhealthy. I wouldn't stay with a girlfriend like that, much less worship a god like that.
Anyway, welcome to the forums. You didn't answer my last question, though. What do you hope to get out of these forums?
When in 2008?
And I was the same way. I mean about being one-sided about my faith. Although I did it more out of fear. I'm learning that I had everything wrong in my perception of grace.
Well, to learn.. to ask, and find information. ðŸ™, And to maybe show a different side of the Faith...
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 18, 2018, 12:17:05 PM
Yeah, me too. Frankly that was one of the big hurdles I just could not get over. Belief and faith. If a creator god wanted me to have those then that god should have no problem making it obvious that that is what it wanted. As of today, I have not seen any evidence that any such god (or any other) exists, much less wants something from me.
I feel like the evidence I have is from everything i have come through.
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 18, 2018, 11:52:07 AM
Well, thankfully the "grace through faith" isn't so much about me. Since, honestly, I have a tough time with faith
One should. Jacob had to wrestle with an angel all night, until dawn, before he got renamed Israel ;-)
Yes, typical but still developing Evangelical. Life comes thru growth/development.
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 18, 2018, 12:45:26 PM
I feel like the evidence I have is from everything i have come through.
Correct. Materialists say ... believe my ontology, don't believe your lying eyes.
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 18, 2018, 12:42:29 PM
When in 2008?
That seems like an odd question, but okay. It was during a Bible camp in February. I was actually too old to sign up for the camp as a guest, but I was asked to go as a volunteer. Even before my born-again experience, I was volunteering with the church because it made me feel wanted. During the camp, though, I realized I had been motivated by selfish reasons and dedicated myself to serving for God's sake instead of mine. That lasted for several years, so contrary to what some Christians try to claim when they try to dismiss my story, I was not the seed that was sown among the rocks.
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 18, 2018, 12:42:29 PMAnd I was the same way. I mean about being one-sided about my faith. Although I did it more out of fear. I'm learning that I had everything wrong in my perception of grace.
I don't understand what you mean. You realize that your relationship with God is completely one sided, you giving everything and receiving nothing in return, and you're okay with that?
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 18, 2018, 12:42:29 PMWell, to learn.. to ask, and find information. ðŸ™, And to maybe show a different side of the Faith...
As long as you're not here to preach, you should be welcome here. You already rub me better than most theists who come to these forums.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 18, 2018, 01:26:44 PM
That seems like an odd question, but okay. It was during a Bible camp in February. I was actually too old to sign up for the camp as a guest, but I was asked to go as a volunteer. Even before my born-again experience, I was volunteering with the church because it made me feel wanted. During the camp, though, I realized I had been motivated by selfish reasons and dedicated myself to serving for God's sake instead of mine. That lasted for several years, so contrary to what some Christians try to claim when they try to dismiss my story, I was not the seed that was sown among the rocks.
Well, I ask since I was born again in June 2008ðŸ™,
I don't understand what you mean. You realize that your relationship with God is completely one sided, you giving everything and receiving nothing in return, and you're okay with that?
Sorry, I probably didn't interpret that wellðŸ˜, I mean that I'm learning, now, that I viewed grace wrong.. in an unhealthy way. I thought it was about me getting everything right. And I still have a tough time trusting that I don't have to perform or be perfect. It's not supposed to be one-sided, yet that's how it's often represented. And often thought to be the truth.
As long as you're not here to preach, you should be welcome here. You already rub me better than most theists who come to these forums.
I hope I'm not preachy!!!
And thanksðŸ™,
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 18, 2018, 11:19:23 AM
Well I grew up going to church, and was changed at the age of 8. I don't really go by a title... I believe in "By grace through faith", and in relationship not religion. At least that's what I strive toward...
How do you have a "relationship" with something that doesn't exist?
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 18, 2018, 12:45:26 PM
I feel like the evidence I have is from everything i have come through.
Understandable. But that type of evidence is purely personal. I have had those experiences myself. And I've had non-experiences as well; experiences I did not have even though I followed all the rules and prayed with all my heart and my head--nothing. So, looking for proof inside was part of my exploring--still is a little bit. On searching for evidence outside myself I have found none, zip, nadda; yes, I've looked and still am to an extend. The structure of nature is, too me, a strike against their being a god. And I see disasters and harm befalling all--good, bad or indifferent. That all adds up to no evidence for me.
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 18, 2018, 12:42:29 PM
And to maybe show a different side of the Faith...
Really!? That should be interesting, since we've seen pretty much every side of "the Faith" - we're not exactly newcomers where being shown the various sides of "the Faith" is concerned. So if you can show us something we've yet to encounter we'll enjoy the learning experience.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 18, 2018, 01:55:13 PM
Understandable. But that type of evidence is purely personal. I have had those experiences myself. And I've had non-experiences as well; experiences I did not have even though I followed all the rules and prayed with all my heart and my head--nothing. So, looking for proof inside was part of my exploring--still is a little bit. On searching for evidence outside myself I have found none, zip, nadda; yes, I've looked and still am to an extend. The structure of nature is, too me, a strike against their being a god. And I see disasters and harm befalling all--good, bad or indifferent. That all adds up to no evidence for me.
I understand. Looking around... it can be hard to believe, or even want to. However, that's actually part of what I've come through. I had an amazing family and, unfortunately, a pretty rough childhood. And yet, I am beginning to understand why.. even if only a little...
However, I understand that this is still personal evidence. ðŸ™,
Quote from: Baruch on July 18, 2018, 12:54:30 PM
One should. Jacob had to wrestle with an angel all night, until dawn, before he got renamed Israel ;-)
255. Was Jacob's renaming irrevocable?
Yes Gen 32:28
QuoteAnd he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 35:10
QuoteAnd God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called hi name Israel.
No Gen 46:2
QuoteAnd God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, here am I.
[note: and
hundreds of other verses
continue to call him Jacob. In fact,Yahweh is known as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and
Jacob -
not Abraham, Isaac, and
Israel...]
From
Biblical Contradictions - by category: History - Old Testament (http://nullgod.com/index.php/topic,5.msg16.html#msg16)
I was reading a book yesterday, one that I'd just begun reading, and my buddy Cameron was sitting nearby. I felt, for no particular reason at all, that I'd encounter in the book a character named Cameron. Guess what? A couple of chapters later I encountered a character named Cameron!
Should I count that as evidence that I'm psychic?
I don't think so...coincidence just happens.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 18, 2018, 02:11:06 PM
255. Was Jacob's renaming irrevocable?
Yes
Gen 32:28
Gen 35:10
No
Gen 46:2
[note: and hundreds of other verses continue to call him Jacob. In fact,Yahweh is known as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - not Abraham, Isaac, and Israel...]
From Biblical Contradictions - by category: History - Old Testament (http://nullgod.com/index.php/topic,5.msg16.html#msg16)
I'm not certain. Could I research it and come back?
I'm learning that if I look for an answer to a question like that, I can usually find one. Like Matthew and Luke appear to give different fathers to Joseph, when in actuality, one of them is actually his father-in-law.
I don't think so...coincidence just happens.
[/quote]
MaybeðŸ™,
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 18, 2018, 02:38:08 PM
I'm not certain. Could I research it and come back?
Well, it wasn't specifically aimed at you MT, but feel free to do research if you like.
I found an article. ðŸ™,
After Jacob’s struggle with the Lord at Peniel, the Lord gave Jacob a new name: Israel. And God gave the reason: “Because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome†(Genesis 32:28). Later, God appears to Jacob/Israel again in Bethel, reaffirms the name change, and gives him the same covenant that Abraham had received (Genesis 35:9â€"12). Thus the “heel-catcher†became “one who struggles with God.†It was before he met with God in Bethel that Jacob purposefully put away his idols and purified himself (verse 2).
After the name change, some passages in Genesis refer to Jacob as “Jacob†(Genesis 33:1; 34:7; 35:15; 37:1) and others as “Israel†(Genesis 35:21; 37:3; 43:6; 46:1). Some have suggested that the name Jacob represents his old nature and Israel his new. That is, he is called “Jacob†when functioning in his carnal old nature, but he is called “Israel†when he is acting out of his new nature. There could be limited merit in this suggestion in some passages, and it would parallel the Christian’s experience as presented in Ephesians 4:22â€"24
In the end, however, it is best not to make too much of the Jacob/Israel distinction, since some passages include both Jacob and Israel within the same immediate context (e.g., Genesis 37:1â€"3). Also, there are several psalms that use both names side by side: “Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!†(Psalm 53:6) and “He decreed statutes for Jacob and established the law in Israel†(Psalm 78:5). The parallelism of the poetry identifies the names Jacob and Israel as synonymous, and both names can represent the nation as well as the individual.
How does one win a wrestling match with the God of the universe in the first place? It's such a bizarre story, and no one seems to have a good answer. It'd be like if the Pencil Pusher (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fairlyoddparents/images/2/2d/OddJobs091.png/revision/latest?cb=20110331225156&path-prefix=en) beat Superman in a fight, only even more ridiculous. The only explanation I can think of that makes sense is to take it from a fictional perspective. The early Old Testament folks didn't conceive of Yahweh being the omnipotent being he is today. After all, God was afraid to send his troops into battle because the enemy had iron (the bane of magical creatures). So this weaker version of God could conceivably lose in a fight.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 18, 2018, 03:06:10 PM
How does one win a wrestling match with the God of the universe in the first place? It's such a bizarre story, and no one seems to have a good answer. It'd be like if the Pencil Pusher (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fairlyoddparents/images/2/2d/OddJobs091.png/revision/latest?cb=20110331225156&path-prefix=en) beat Superman in a fight, only even more ridiculous. The only explanation I can think of that makes sense is to take it from a fictional perspective. The early Old Testament folks didn't conceive of Yahweh being the omnipotent being he is today. After all, God was afraid to send his troops into battle because the enemy had iron (the bane of magical creatures). So this weaker version of God could conceivably lose in a fight.
Rabbis had a hard time explaining that one too, so they lied. Clergy always lies.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 18, 2018, 01:51:50 PM
How do you have a "relationship" with something that doesn't exist?
You have a relationship with Hillary ... how does that work? Apparently a personal messiah for many here ... and here I though y'all thought Obama was your personal messiah ;-)
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 18, 2018, 01:55:13 PM
Understandable. But that type of evidence is purely personal. I have had those experiences myself. And I've had non-experiences as well; experiences I did not have even though I followed all the rules and prayed with all my heart and my head--nothing. So, looking for proof inside was part of my exploring--still is a little bit. On searching for evidence outside myself I have found none, zip, nadda; yes, I've looked and still am to an extend. The structure of nature is, too me, a strike against their being a god. And I see disasters and harm befalling all--good, bad or indifferent. That all adds up to no evidence for me.
What is the medical term for people who deny their own experience? Of course, if you were drunk at the time ...
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 18, 2018, 02:17:55 PM
I was reading a book yesterday, one that I'd just begun reading, and my buddy Cameron was sitting nearby. I felt, for no particular reason at all, that I'd encounter in the book a character named Cameron. Guess what? A couple of chapters later I encountered a character named Cameron!
Should I count that as evidence that I'm psychic?
I don't think so...coincidence just happens.
You caught us .. all theists secretly support Putin! Bwahaha. Psychic? No, something more medical, sorry.
Quote from: Baruch on July 18, 2018, 07:04:57 PM
Rabbis had a hard time explaining that one too, so they lied. Clergy always lies.
Yeah, pious lies have been the mainstay of religions from ancient times to modern:
Pious Lies (http://nullgod.com/index.php?topic=49.0)
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 18, 2018, 07:10:03 PM
Yeah, pious lies have been the mainstay of religions down through time:
Pious Lies (http://nullgod.com/index.php?topic=49.0)
Political lies aren't even pious, they are impious.
Quote from: Baruch on July 18, 2018, 07:06:51 PM
What is the medical term for people who deny their own experience? Of course, if you were drunk at the time ...
I'm beginning to wonder about myself. Why do I bother to respond to your idiotic dribblings? Never on this board have I stated I deny my own existence? You must be a close cousin to Trump for it seems most of what comes out of your mouth (well, actually on this forum, fingers) is either an outright lie or at best fictional.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 18, 2018, 08:17:54 PM
I'm beginning to wonder about myself. Why do I bother to respond to your idiotic dribblings? Never on this board have I stated I deny my own existence? You must be a close cousin to Trump for it seems most of what comes out of your mouth (well, actually on this forum, fingers) is either an outright lie or at best fictional.
Experience is not the same as existence ... I don't think you denied your own existence.
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 18, 2018, 02:09:14 PM
I understand. Looking around... it can be hard to believe, or even want to. However, that's actually part of what I've come through. I had an amazing family and, unfortunately, a pretty rough childhood. And yet, I am beginning to understand why.. even if only a little...
However, I understand that this is still personal evidence. ðŸ™,
I offer this one little series of thoughts to explain why I am an atheist. I remember as a child reading parts of the OT (in bible school) and it says in a couple of places, thou shalt not kill. Don't know why I settled on that but it got me to thinking. God is supposed to be the creator of all--everything, past, present and future. And the bible is part of that creation. So, the bible is the handbook of how to live as god wants us to. He demanded that we not kill. He also crafted nature. All animals (including humans) have to kill to eat and we must eat to gather energy to live. Even a strict vegan must kill to live. Yet plants do not. They have photosynthesis that allows them to gather energy from the sun. So, god instructs us to not kill, yet makes it so we must. Yet he demonstrates with plants that he created a way not to kill to live--solar energy. That strikes me as not being a very nice guy--to say the least. This is not the only reason I think god (any and all) are created by man, not the other way around. God is a handy fiction to supply the 'why' we humans love to seek and for a small group of people to control the larger group.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 19, 2018, 08:59:41 AM
I offer this one little series of thoughts to explain why I am an atheist. I remember as a child reading parts of the OT (in bible school) and it says in a couple of places, thou shalt not kill. Don't know why I settled on that but it got me to thinking. God is supposed to be the creator of all--everything, past, present and future. And the bible is part of that creation. So, the bible is the handbook of how to live as god wants us to. He demanded that we not kill. He also crafted nature. All animals (including humans) have to kill to eat and we must eat to gather energy to live. Even a strict vegan must kill to live. Yet plants do not. They have photosynthesis that allows them to gather energy from the sun. So, god instructs us to not kill, yet makes it so we must. Yet he demonstrates with plants that he created a way not to kill to live--solar energy. That strikes me as not being a very nice guy--to say the least. This is not the only reason I think god (any and all) are created by man, not the other way around. God is a handy fiction to supply the 'why' we humans love to seek and for a small group of people to control the larger group.
Okay... an intriguing argument.. ðŸ™,
Ever read the entire OT, though?
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 19, 2018, 09:49:42 AM
Okay... an intriguing argument.. ðŸ™,
Ever read the entire OT, though?
A couple of times--and the NT, as well. At the height of my inquiries I read the NT with the aid of a couple of books used by various seminaries to teach the NT. And I also read books by Robert M. Price and Richard Carrier (among a bunch of others on both sides of the aisle). The thoughts I shared with you began in my childhood---I have had many more since. And they have all lead me to atheism.
A little tid-bit I picked up while reading the OT, is that the Ten Commandments (Decalogue) is actually repeated in 3 places. Do you know what books they are found in?
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 19, 2018, 10:21:29 AM
A couple of times--and the NT, as well. At the height of my inquiries I read the NT with the aid of a couple of books used by various seminaries to teach the NT. And I also read books by Robert M. Price and Richard Carrier (among a bunch of others on both sides of the aisle). The thoughts I shared with you began in my childhood---I have had many more since. And they have all lead me to atheism.
A little tid-bit I picked up while reading the OT, is that the Ten Commandments (Decalogue) is actually repeated in 3 places. Do you know what books they are found in?
Wow, very amazing the effort put into the inquiring.
And no, although one day... I hope to have a lot of information about the history and everything. I'm trying to figure out more.
Where are the 3?
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 19, 2018, 12:04:25 PM
Wow, very amazing the effort put into the inquiring.
And no, although one day... I hope to have a lot of information about the history and everything. I'm trying to figure out more.
Where are the 3?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
Exodus and Deuteronomy. It is argued that it is covered twice in Exodus.
Modern people don't know how to interpret ancient writings anyway, since we don't have the cultural POV of ancient people ... even if you deal with the original Biblical Hebrew (and avoid translation).
The problem with exegesis is ... it takes a lifetime to properly understand even one verse of such an old literature. Non-professors have to content with translations (with theological bias) or scholarly summaries (Wiki above) that have philosophical bias.
One great contention is the "Thou shalt not kill" ...
I teach Biblical Hebrew to adults ... and I use Psalms as my primary resource. It has been demonstrated that the whole Tanakh (OT) is free verse, and by 1000 CE had standardized musical tropes attached to it all, not just Psalms. You could get as much by deeply analyzing Beetles lyrics.
Quote from: Baruch on July 19, 2018, 12:33:21 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
Exodus and Deuteronomy. It is argued that it is covered twice in Exodus.
Modern people don't know how to interpret modern writings anyway, since we don't have the cultural POV of ancient people ... even if you deal with the original Biblical Hebrew (and avoid translation).
The problem with exegesis is ... it takes a lifetime to properly understand even one verse of such an old literature. Non-professors have to content with translations (with theological bias) or scholarly summaries (Wiki above) that have philosophical bias.
One great contention is the "Thou shalt not kill" ...
I teach Biblical Hebrew to adults ... and I use Psalms as my primary resource. It has been demonstrated that the whole Tanakh (OT) is free verse, and by 1000 CE had standardized musical tropes attached to it all, not must Psalms. You could get as much by deeply analyzing Beetles lyrics.
WOW. ðŸ™,
Yeah, yeah, theology and all that, but dammit tacos are a much more pressing concern.
Mankind's greatest invention. Endlessly adaptable, portable, and satisfying from first bite to last. A perfect melding of form and function; lofty aesthetics and earthly practicality perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
So I'll ask again. Do you prefer soft or crunchy? Why?
Hi! We're mostly harmless. What's your thing? Movies, books, TV, radio, music?
Quote from: Hydra009 on July 19, 2018, 01:02:53 PM
Yeah, yeah, theology and all that, but dammit tacos are a much more pressing concern.
Mankind's greatest invention. Endlessly adaptable, portable, and satisfying from first bite to last. A perfect melding of form and function; lofty aesthetics and earthly practicality perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
So I'll ask again. Do you prefer soft or crunchy? Why?
ðŸ˜, I can't eat flour... I might eat a white corn chicken taco though!
Quote from: trdsf on July 19, 2018, 01:13:14 PM
Hi! We're mostly harmless. What's your thing? Movies, books, TV, radio, music?
I enjoy reading and watching tvðŸ™, And a cute movie
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 19, 2018, 01:25:59 PM
I enjoy reading and watching tvðŸ™, And a cute movie
Not much of a TV or movie person myself, outside of a couple shows on the BBC and Netflix. although I did go to three movies in three days last week -- more than I had in the previous year. I generally prefer radio, and audiobooks - most of what I listen to is on BBC Radio 4, or one of a couple podcasts.
Genres? Drama, comedy, F&SF, soaps, news? I'm a comedies and science fiction guy m'self.
Quote from: trdsf on July 19, 2018, 01:33:10 PM
Not much of a TV or movie person myself, outside of a couple shows on the BBC and Netflix. although I did go to three movies in three days last week -- more than I had in the previous year. I generally prefer radio, and audiobooks - most of what I listen to is on BBC Radio 4, or one of a couple podcasts.
Genres? Drama, comedy, F&SF, soaps, news? I'm a comedies and science fiction guy m'self.
Comedy, and an average amount of animation. I enjoy watching a movie with a Faith view too.
I enjoy fiction... however, non-fiction, too! ðŸ˜,
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 19, 2018, 01:39:28 PM
Comedy, and an average amount of animation. I enjoy watching a movie with a Faith view too.
I enjoy fiction... however, non-fiction, too! ðŸ˜,
You probably won't be surprised to learn that faith-themed movies are not especially high on my list; I have no doubt many of my documentary choices are not high on yours. ;) Last thing I went and saw, though, was the remastered
Yellow Submarine -- recommended for lovers of the Beatles and of psychedelic animation. And wordplay.
Quote from: Hydra009 on July 19, 2018, 01:02:53 PM
Yeah, yeah, theology and all that, but dammit tacos are a much more pressing concern.
Mankind's greatest invention. Endlessly adaptable, portable, and satisfying from first bite to last. A perfect melding of form and function; lofty aesthetics and earthly practicality perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
So I'll ask again. Do you prefer soft or crunchy? Why?
Why not both? Doesn't Taco Bell offer one that combines a soft wrapped around a crispy?
https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/taco-bell-launches-1-double-stacked-tacos
False dichotomy much?
Thea-atheist or Athe-theist?
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 19, 2018, 01:25:59 PM
I enjoy reading and watching tvðŸ™, And a cute movie
I am going Saturday to the local theater production of Young Frankenstein. Trdsf will be there two ;-)
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 19, 2018, 01:39:28 PM
Comedy, and an average amount of animation. I enjoy watching a movie with a Faith view too.
I enjoy fiction... however, non-fiction, too! ðŸ˜,
Did you enjoy Joshua (the 2002 movie)?
Quote from: Baruch on July 19, 2018, 07:16:44 PM
Did you enjoy Joshua (the 2002 movie)?
I haven't gotten the chance to watch that one! I might have to watch it!
Wings,
the three places one can read the OT 10 commandments:
Ex 31:18
Ex 25:21
Deu 10:2
Read them--what do you think?
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 19, 2018, 09:32:48 PM
Wings,
the three places one can read the OT 10 commandments:
Ex 31:18
Ex 25:21
Deu 10:2
Read them--what do you think?
What I think..?
I think I want to learn more! ðŸ™,
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 19, 2018, 10:14:37 PM
What I think..?
I think I want to learn more! ðŸ™,
Read those three sections of the OT. It may turn out to be a bit puzzling for you, but I will discuss it if you like. In fact, I guarantee a bit of a shock for you.
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 19, 2018, 09:15:37 PM
I haven't gotten the chance to watch that one! I might have to watch it!
Joshua (2002) Several movies of the same name. That is the best Christian movie of recent times (from an American perspective). If that Jesus was real, I would certainly support him.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 18, 2018, 02:11:06 PM
255. Was Jacob's renaming irrevocable?
Yes
Gen 32:28
Gen 35:10
No
Gen 46:2
[note: and hundreds of other verses continue to call him Jacob. In fact,Yahweh is known as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - not Abraham, Isaac, and Israel...]
From Biblical Contradictions - by category: History - Old Testament (http://nullgod.com/index.php/topic,5.msg16.html#msg16)
Jacob Israel.
His children kept his surname!
:cool:
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 18, 2018, 03:06:10 PM
How does one win a wrestling match with the God of the universe in the first place? It's such a bizarre story, and no one seems to have a good answer. It'd be like if the Pencil Pusher (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fairlyoddparents/images/2/2d/OddJobs091.png/revision/latest?cb=20110331225156&path-prefix=en) beat Superman in a fight, only even more ridiculous. The only explanation I can think of that makes sense is to take it from a fictional perspective. The early Old Testament folks didn't conceive of Yahweh being the omnipotent being he is today. After all, God was afraid to send his troops into battle because the enemy had iron (the bane of magical creatures). So this weaker version of God could conceivably lose in a fight.
Only ridiculous if you believe that YHWH can not enter into His creation as a man.
Ask Baruch, he will tell you about the Jewish scriptures calling this Angel that came to Earth the Metatron.
The Christians call this the Word of YHWH.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 18, 2018, 07:10:03 PM
Yeah, pious lies have been the mainstay of religions from ancient times to modern:
Pious Lies (http://nullgod.com/index.php?topic=49.0)
And Atheists are the only truthful ones.
They dont even lie to them self.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 19, 2018, 08:59:41 AM
I offer this one little series of thoughts to explain why I am an atheist. I remember as a child reading parts of the OT (in bible school) and it says in a couple of places, thou shalt not kill. Don't know why I settled on that but it got me to thinking. God is supposed to be the creator of all--everything, past, present and future. And the bible is part of that creation. So, the bible is the handbook of how to live as god wants us to. He demanded that we not kill. He also crafted nature. All animals (including humans) have to kill to eat and we must eat to gather energy to live. Even a strict vegan must kill to live. Yet plants do not. They have photosynthesis that allows them to gather energy from the sun. So, god instructs us to not kill, yet makes it so we must. Yet he demonstrates with plants that he created a way not to kill to live--solar energy. That strikes me as not being a very nice guy--to say the least. This is not the only reason I think god (any and all) are created by man, not the other way around. God is a handy fiction to supply the 'why' we humans love to seek and for a small group of people to control the larger group.
And perhaps you read the Bible, but forgot what you read a few chapters ago where YHWH clearly stated that He created Man as an immortal being that can not die and lived in a body covered with light because they did not need clothes.
Then this same chapters gives you an explanation of how Satan deceived Man to disobey God, and they lost their immortality and light covered bodies, and started to age, and eventually they died.
Now, you yourself are half dead, like all of us, and we will die.
Not because YHWH created us to die, but because of the mortal bodies our spirit lives in.
I can never understand why Atheists, especially, would blame God for sickness, death and pain.
He never created us in this way in the first instance.
But, this accusation you gave straight out of the Bible is therefore incorrect.
You claimed something clearly not described in the Bible.
If you would claim this on the Moral of YHWH, without using the Biblical description, you are then obviously speaking of another God than what I know.
Quote from: Mousetrap on July 20, 2018, 07:15:44 AM
If you would claim this on the Moral of YHWH, without using the Biblical description, you are then obviously speaking of another God than what I know.
That problem is inherent in the case of any non-existent god. No one has witnessed him in person or witnessed him doing anything. That's why Christians cannot agree on what God is or what he does or does not do. Like atheists, theists have no clear knowledge of God, so no two theists are in complete agreement of who he is. Sometimes they agree and support each other when they do agree on a thing, but when they don't, they leap over the contradiction and act as if there is no disagreement. Your intimate knowledge of God contradicts other speculations about God as much as the speculations of others contradict yours.
Your contradiction of Mike's interpretation is based on your personal bias and desires. That is why you and other theists also contradict Biblical scholars as well. And when it's convenient, you contradict literal interpretations of the Bible itself. Individual's knowledge of God is always personal and tainted by personal emotions and bias. This is true of Biblical scholars as well as armchair amateurs such as yourself. It's true of atheists as well, because they live in a theist world, and the only information they have about God are the hand-me-downs given them in the theist world. And what would you expect when a god's existence is dependent on lack of evidence or knowledge? His existence is dependent on the claims of man, even if they contradict other claims of man. The contradictions themselves support his existence, because who would be so foolish as to disagree about the qualities of something that does not exist?
That's how theists get caught in their own mousetrap, and the only way to escape is by letting go of unfounded beliefs which are therefore irrelevant and don't matter. But this is hard to do.
Quote from: Mousetrap on July 20, 2018, 07:15:44 AM
And perhaps you read the Bible, but forgot what you read a few chapters ago where YHWH clearly stated that He created Man as an immortal being that can not die and lived in a body covered with light because they did not need clothes.
Then this same chapters gives you an explanation of how Satan deceived Man to disobey God, and they lost their immortality and light covered bodies, and started to age, and eventually they died.
Now, you yourself are half dead, like all of us, and we will die.
Not because YHWH created us to die, but because of the mortal bodies our spirit lives in.
I can never understand why Atheists, especially, would blame God for sickness, death and pain.
He never created us in this way in the first instance.
But, this accusation you gave straight out of the Bible is therefore incorrect.
You claimed something clearly not described in the Bible.
If you would claim this on the Moral of YHWH, without using the Biblical description, you are then obviously speaking of another God than what I know.
That is all just your opinion and nothing more. I have my opinion. Your creator god created everything and must have been satisfied with it. Even your satan was created by your god. So, to blame anything on satan is to make your god seem quite incompetent, at best. Satan is as god wants him. Even if satan is responsible for sickness and pain, god made him that way. God is responsible more than satan or his minions--which were created by god. Either your god created everything or he didn't. If he didn't then he is not much of a creator god. Clearly your god and all of what you say he created is simply fiction. You can continue to believe whatever it is you believe---any fiction you want. I know your god is fake--a fiction--for nothing could be that evil.
Quote from: Mousetrap on July 20, 2018, 07:15:44 AM
Then this same chapters gives you an explanation of how Satan deceived Man to disobey God, and they lost their immortality and light covered bodies, and started to age, and eventually they died.
Where does it say that the serpent is Satan?
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 20, 2018, 02:03:32 PM
Where does it say that the serpent is Satan?
You mean it was only a talking serpent? OK, I suppose, but really; A talking serpent?
You can have all kinds of silly things when you're just making shit up.
Well, the book of Revelation does mention a serpent as being Satan, but nowhere does it say that it's the same serpent as the one in Genesis:
Revelation 12:9
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Revelation 20:2
"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 20, 2018, 02:23:26 PM
Well, the book of Revelation does mention a serpent as being Satan, but nowhere does it say that it's the same serpent as the one in Genesis:
Revelation 12:9
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Revelation 20:2
"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"
So the serpent was a dragon. OK, I guess that resolves one issue; But a dragon? And a talking one at that?
Yeah, like the dragon in Sagan's garage.
I doubt if we will ever find a fossilized dragon. I'll guess that the species was not prominent enough to leave behind much evidence, but who knows? Maybe someday we will find one, but how this proves God exists will have to wait for word from a reputable source. Ken Hamm, maybe.
You shouldn't cast your pearls before swine...
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 20, 2018, 02:23:26 PM
Well, the book of Revelation does mention a serpent as being Satan, but nowhere does it say that it's the same serpent as the one in Genesis:
Revelation 12:9
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Revelation 20:2
"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"
The bible just can't get it right. A dragon is not a serpent--just ask the Dragon Rides Of Pern!!
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 20, 2018, 02:23:26 PM
Well, the book of Revelation does mention a serpent as being Satan, but nowhere does it say that it's the same serpent as the one in Genesis:
Revelation 12:9
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Revelation 20:2
"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"
Serpent and dragon in both cases. But in Gematria ... dragon/serpent = Messiah
It is not a coincidence that Jewish opponents of Jesus are made to say he is Ba'alzebub. False messiahs are always satanic.
Quote from: SGOS on July 20, 2018, 02:11:49 PM
You mean it was only a talking serpent? OK, I suppose, but really; A talking serpent?
Bad guy from The Jungle Book aka Greatest I Am who posts here.
SGOS
I doubt if we will ever find a fossilized dragon.
Not so fast. African or European dragon?
Quote from: ferdmonger on July 20, 2018, 08:33:33 PM
SGOS
I doubt if we will ever find a fossilized dragon.
Not so fast. African or European dragon?
The American dragon of course. The Americanis Titanis.
Quote from: ferdmonger on July 20, 2018, 08:33:33 PM
SGOS
I doubt if we will ever find a fossilized dragon.
Not so fast. African or European dragon?
I bet we find one on Pern.
Pern: I had to look that one up. I'd never heard of it before.
Quote from: SGOS on July 20, 2018, 10:39:39 PM
Pern: I had to look that one up. I'd never heard of it before.
Dude! An entire planet of atheists and you've never heard of it? For shame! Get the Dragonflight trilogy, followed by The Master Harper of Pern and the Harper Hall trilogy.
Quote from: SGOS on July 20, 2018, 10:39:39 PM
Pern: I had to look that one up. I'd never heard of it before.
Start with the Dragon Riders of Pern--if you like it, then follow up with one of the next 24 in the whole issue. It has been so long that I think I may read that one myself and then keep on going.
Quote from: SGOS on July 20, 2018, 02:11:49 PM
You mean it was only a talking serpent? OK, I suppose, but really; A talking serpent?
The book of Revelation kind of retconned the serpent and replaced him with the devil in the form of a serpent. But the story makes no sense in that context. The snake was punished by having his legs removed and forced to "eat dirt." That part of the story was meant to explain why snakes are shaped so weird. So if the snake was the devil disguised as an animal, God punished all snakes because of his deception. Why would he do that? Then again, this is the same god who's solution for the bad people in the world was to drown every single thing on the planet that wasn't on a boat.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 20, 2018, 11:54:26 PM
The book of Revelation kind of retconned the serpent and replaced him with the devil in the form of a serpent. But the story makes no sense in that context. The snake was punished by having his legs removed and forced to "eat dirt." That part of the story was meant to explain why snakes are shaped so weird. So if the snake was the devil disguised as an animal, God punished all snakes because of his deception. Why would he do that? Then again, this is the same god who's solution for the bad people in the world was to drown every single thing on the planet that wasn't on a boat.
Part of the witches + familiars. Which reappears in Golden Compass.
Quote from: Baruch on July 17, 2018, 07:22:18 PM
Welcome. I am a token theist. Maybe a Tolkien theist ;-)
I sometimes think the beginning of the Silmarillion is the best version of creationism that was ever written. I don't agree of course, but it is is well-written.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 20, 2018, 11:54:26 PM
The book of Revelation kind of retconned the serpent and replaced him with the devil in the form of a serpent. But the story makes no sense in that context. The snake was punished by having his legs removed and forced to "eat dirt." That part of the story was meant to explain why snakes are shaped so weird. So if the snake was the devil disguised as an animal, God punished all snakes because of his deception. Why would he do that? Then again, this is the same god who's solution for the bad people in the world was to drown every single thing on the planet that wasn't on a boat.
I always did think the snake got the worst part of the story. I rather like snakes myself. Watched one at my pond spend a half hour struggling to swallow a complaining frog it grabbed badly. I watched with some curiosity as the snake slowly got the frog in its mouth and eventually into its gut.
Well, there were a LOT of frogs around...
Quote from: Cavebear on July 21, 2018, 06:54:41 AM
I always did think the snake got the worst part of the story. I rather like snakes myself. Watched one at my pond spend a half hour struggling to swallow a complaining frog it grabbed badly. I watched with some curiosity as the snake slowly got the frog in its mouth and eventually into its gut.
Well, there were a LOT of frogs around...
I was fishing for trout six miles by foot into a wilderness area at a glacier fed lake in Montana. I had with me a purse sized canvas bag for my fishing gear, and place to put the fish. I can't remember why, but I unslung the bag from my shoulder and laid it on the shore, and pushed through some brush to a different spot to cast from.
When I got back to my bag to add another trout to my catch, a snake slithered out of the bag with one of my fish. I chased the snake. I don't know why, because the idea of eating a fish that had been in the mouth of a snake is repulsive. As I chased the snake down the shore, a mink jumped out of the brush and pounced on the snake, took the fish, and disappeared back into the brush.
I related the incident to my hiking companion back at the campsite, and he said it sounded like one of Outdoor Life Magazine's "True Life Adventures." While I thought the story was of some interest, the overall experience for me was disgusting and revolting, although I did actually cheer for the mink when he wrestled the fish from the snake. But the thought that some snake had been slithering around in my bag full of fish is enough to create a gag reflex in me.
Quote from: SGOS on July 21, 2018, 07:23:07 AM
I was fishing for trout six miles by foot into a wilderness area at a glacier fed lake in Montana. I had with me a purse sized canvas bag for my fishing gear, and place to put the fish. I can't remember why, but I unslung the bag from my shoulder and laid it on the shore, and pushed through some brush to a different spot to cast from.
When I got back to my bag to add another trout to my catch, a snake slithered out of the bag with one of my fish. I chased the snake. I don't know why, because the idea of eating a fish that had been in the mouth of a snake is repulsive. As I chased the snake down the shore, a mink jumped out of the brush and pounced on the snake, took the fish, and disappeared back into the brush.
I related the incident to my hiking companion back at the campsite, and he said it sounded like one of Outdoor Life Magazine's "True Life Adventures." While I thought the story was of some interest, the overall experience for me was disgusting and revolting, although I did actually cheer for the mink when he wrestled the fish from the snake. But the thought that some snake had been slithering around in my bag full of fish is enough to create a gag reflex in me.
Wow! Any idea what kind of snake that was? I've never seen a snake eat a fish.
My dad liked to camp in out of way places when I was young. We were camping at a place near Bend Oregon, trying to fish for trout. The trout wouldn't bite, they must have been on a mission to spawn. I nearly stepped on one while wading across the river. Watch before you find a place to take a dump in nature. My dad was doing a dump, under a tree, but before he finished, he looked up, and there was a porcupine in that tree. He finished his business very carefully!
Quote from: Baruch on July 21, 2018, 09:15:12 AM
My dad liked to camp in out of way places when I was young. We were camping at a place near Bend Oregon, trying to fish for trout. The trout wouldn't bite, they must have been on a mission to spawn. I nearly stepped on one while wading across the river. Watch before you find a place to take a dump in nature. My dad was doing a dump, under a tree, but before he finished, he looked up, and there was a porcupine in that tree. He finished his business very carefully!
Just out of curiosity, how did he wipe his butt?
Quote from: Cavebear on July 21, 2018, 09:20:06 AM
Just out of curiosity, how did he wipe his butt?
The porcupine didn't volunteer, and my dad didn't ask him!!
OK then a wilderness porcupine story then. Once again in the same wilderness, I had one especially odd porcupine encounter, porcupines being the most waddling sluggish creates in nature outside of the sloth. I was walking rather briskly up the trail when a porcupine came galloping down the trail from the opposite direction. I'd never seen a porcupine traveling so fast. Something must have spooked it on the trail above. My first reaction was to freeze. But porcupines have notoriously bad eyesight, or so I've been told, and he just kept galloping toward me. When he was about four yards away, my next reaction was to take a step or two backwards, but I lost my footing stepping backwards down a steep although short section of the trail, and fell flat on my back with my head down hill in the most awkward position, and porky was still running toward me. So I'm laying there thinking, "Oh great, I'll end up lying here flat on my back with a porcupine sitting on my chest." But suddenly the porcupine became aware of presence, a turned and ran back up the trail.
There was no reason to be embarrassed. I was by myself, and the nearest person might be 10 miles away. Never-the-less, I was still embarrassed.
Quote from: SGOS on July 21, 2018, 09:33:32 AM
OK then a wilderness porcupine story then. Once again in the same wilderness, I had one especially odd porcupine encounter, porcupines being the most waddling sluggish creates in nature outside of the sloth. I was walking rather briskly up the trail when a porcupine came galloping down the trail from the opposite direction. I'd never seen a porcupine traveling so fast. Something must have spooked it on the trail above. My first reaction was to freeze. But porcupines have notoriously bad eyesight, or so I've been told, and he just kept galloping toward me. When he was about four yards away, my next reaction was to take a step or two backwards, but I lost my footing stepping backwards down a steep although short section of the trail, and fell flat on my back with my head down hill in the most awkward position, and porky was still running toward me. So I'm laying there thinking, "Oh great, I'll end up lying here flat on my back with a porcupine sitting on my chest." But suddenly the porcupine became aware of presence, a turned and ran back up the trail.
There was no reason to be embarrassed. I was by myself, and the nearest person might be 10 miles away. Never-the-less, I was still embarrassed.
Lucky what spooked him was spooked by you too.
Quote from: Baruch on July 21, 2018, 09:36:52 AM
Lucky what spooked him was spooked by you too.
From Google:
Quote
Through stomach and scat analysis, six carnivores are known to occasionally kill porcupines. Wolves, mountain lions, lynx, coyote, bobcats and fishers as possible suspects.
All six of these are abundant where I'm from, although I've never seen a lynx. I should qualify that in the case of wolves and lynx, "relatively abundant when compared to other places" would be a better description.
Quote from: Cavebear on July 21, 2018, 08:57:49 AM
Wow! Any idea what kind of snake that was? I've never seen a snake eat a fish.
It was just a common garden variety garter snake which are encountered all the time sunning themselves on the trails.
Quote from: SGOS on July 21, 2018, 09:33:32 AM
OK then a wilderness porcupine story then. Once again in the same wilderness, I had one especially odd porcupine encounter, porcupines being the most waddling sluggish creates in nature outside of the sloth. I was walking rather briskly up the trail when a porcupine came galloping down the trail from the opposite direction. I'd never seen a porcupine traveling so fast. Something must have spooked it on the trail above. My first reaction was to freeze. But porcupines have notoriously bad eyesight, or so I've been told, and he just kept galloping toward me. When he was about four yards away, my next reaction was to take a step or two backwards, but I lost my footing stepping backwards down a steep although short section of the trail, and fell flat on my back with my head down hill in the most awkward position, and porky was still running toward me. So I'm laying there thinking, "Oh great, I'll end up lying here flat on my back with a porcupine sitting on my chest." But suddenly the porcupine became aware of presence, a turned and ran back up the trail.
Hurray for a quilless encounter!
There was no reason to be embarrassed. I was by myself, and the nearest person might be 10 miles away. Never-the-less, I was still embarrassed.
Quote from: SGOS on July 21, 2018, 09:54:07 AM
From Google:All six of these are abundant where I'm from, although I've never seen a lynx. I should qualify that in the case of wolves and lynx, "relatively abundant when compared to other places" would be a better description.
Cats are usually nocturnal. Smart predators usually are.
Quote from: Baruch on July 21, 2018, 10:00:53 AM
Cats are usually nocturnal. Smart predators usually are.
Crepuscular...
Quote from: Cavebear on July 21, 2018, 06:54:41 AM
I always did think the snake got the worst part of the story.
Yeah, especially since it was the serpent who told the truth, and God that lied his ass off - if God can be said to have an ass. Presumably he does though, since Moses could only see his "back parts", and not his face...
QuoteAnd it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Exodus 33:22-23
Actually, I just read chapter 3:1, which says, "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made." So there you go. The serpent was an animal created by God, and not at all the devil. Case closed. Also, apparently animals can talk, unless Adam speaks Parseltongue. But this wouldn't be the only time animals have talked for no explained reason...
Numbers 22:28-30 - "Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?"
Balaam answered the donkey, "You have made a fool of me! If only I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now."
The donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?"
"No," he said."
I like how the guy doesn't even bat an eye. If a donkey just starting talking to me, I'd be like, "Whoa! WTF?" But this guy is like, "The animals are talking. Is it Tuesday again already?"
Even a jackass is better than a pagan prophet ;-) The donkey did him a favor (guess he liked his stall and feed).
So did you protest any other fantasy literature ... Harry Potter perhaps?
Quote from: Baruch on July 21, 2018, 10:06:42 PM
Even a jackass is better than a pagan prophet ;-) The donkey did him a favor (guess he liked his stall and feed).
So did you protest any other fantasy literature ... Harry Potter perhaps?
If Hedwig suddenly started talking and Harry Potter didn't question it, and people claimed the Harry Potter books to be literally true, I absolutely would protest it. lol
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 21, 2018, 10:29:25 PM
If Hedwig suddenly started talking and Harry Potter didn't question it, and people claimed the Harry Potter books to be literally true, I absolutely would protest it. lol
In Britain, people can list Jedi as their religion. You are being rationalist. A distinct minority among the monkey population.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 21, 2018, 10:29:25 PM
If Hedwig suddenly started talking and Harry Potter didn't question it, and people claimed the Harry Potter books to be literally true, I absolutely would protest it. lol
And if they were vying for supremacy on the national and global stage. Then we'd worry about their "holy" books.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 22, 2018, 06:02:21 PM
And if they were vying for supremacy on the national and global stage. Then we'd worry about their "holy" books.
They are ... but you are hypnotized by CNN and BBC to ignore the Daleks among us ;-)
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 18, 2018, 02:09:14 PM
I understand. Looking around... it can be hard to believe, or even want to. However, that's actually part of what I've come through. I had an amazing family and, unfortunately, a pretty rough childhood. And yet, I am beginning to understand why.. even if only a little...
However, I understand that this is still personal evidence. ðŸ™,
Don't think you're the only one.
I was chased down the road being hit with a board when I was 14 years old. My father was a a staunch Catholic. He always said a man should never raise a hand to his wife. His children were a completely different matter.
I vowed that I would break the cycle, and not strike my children. My wife is also an atheist (which helps in the grand scheme of things), and we raised our kids corporal punishment free. and we have very nice responsible kids.
My father is one of the reasons I'm atheist.
Quote from: SGOS on July 21, 2018, 07:23:07 AM
I was fishing for trout six miles by foot into a wilderness area at a glacier fed lake in Montana. I had with me a purse sized canvas bag for my fishing gear, and place to put the fish. I can't remember why, but I unslung the bag from my shoulder and laid it on the shore, and pushed through some brush to a different spot to cast from.
When I got back to my bag to add another trout to my catch, a snake slithered out of the bag with one of my fish. I chased the snake. I don't know why, because the idea of eating a fish that had been in the mouth of a snake is repulsive. As I chased the snake down the shore, a mink jumped out of the brush and pounced on the snake, took the fish, and disappeared back into the brush.
I related the incident to my hiking companion back at the campsite, and he said it sounded like one of Outdoor Life Magazine's "True Life Adventures." While I thought the story was of some interest, the overall experience for me was disgusting and revolting, although I did actually cheer for the mink when he wrestled the fish from the snake. But the thought that some snake had been slithering around in my bag full of fish is enough to create a gag reflex in me.
I'm still catching up to this thread, but this provoked memories from long ago.
I was hunting grouse and knew there were some ahead, when I heard a faint thumping sound from behind.
A timber wolf -and I'm not exaggerating - loped past not six feet to my right. It had not a clue I was there, as the wind was at its back, and I was crouched in the scrum.
This was a massive animal and I was scared shit-less.
I told the story to a warden who said I saw a brush wolf. Yeah. A 150 lb black and white brush wolf.
It never had a clue I was there, and I got to see a timber-wolf up close.
Cool as hell. (Not at the time though.)
Quote from: ferdmonger on July 22, 2018, 10:58:30 PM
A timber wolf -and I'm not exaggerating - loped past not six feet to my right. It had not a clue I was there, as the wind was at its back, and I was crouched in the scrum.
Those experiences alone in the woods at odd hours of the day can sometimes seem like being in another world detached from bustle of society. Just to have one of those is to experience a completely different side of life. OK, you will think I'm making this one up, but I swear it's true:
I was bow hunting and I had set up a portable tree stand a few hundred yards down a game trail from my truck. I couldn't see in every direction as it was right at the interface of tall dense brush and a more open viewing area in front of me. As twilight approached, I heard an intermittent rustling in the brush behind me. I turned my head but it was impossible to see anything. This went on for a few minutes, and all of a sudden a mountain lion appeared out of the brush. Not only that. He was exactly below my tree stand 8 feet under me. I could have spit on him. I was nervous, but not terrified. I just sat quietly, and watched him proceed up the game trail toward my truck, and eventually out of sight. He never saw me. I had been in Montana 30 years by that time, and this was the first mountain lion I ever saw. After that, they started showing up, and I ended up seeing five in my lifetime, but nothing as magical as the first one.
I've seen one mountain lion up close and personal, and it didn't see me until I spoke to it.
I was watching a pile of brush we were burning, and was sitting in a folding chair in the middle of a dirt road (this was just outside of Willits, Ca.), when I looked up and saw coming toward me the aforementioned mountain lion, walking down the dirt road, which was looking off toward the fire, so it didn't know I was there. but it was walking exactly toward where I was sitting! So I just said "hey buddy, I'm here too." It looked up at me, but since I wasn't moving it may not have even been able to seem me well. So after staring in my direction for a few seconds it went off into the adjoining wooded area and went about it's own business. I was never really scared, since I've been around a lot of wildlife, but I was kind of stoked that I'd been that close to such a magnificent creature. It really made my day!
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 23, 2018, 01:29:08 PM
I was never really scared, since I've been around a lot of wildlife, but I was kind of stoked that I'd been that close to such a magnificent creature. It really made my day!
They are breath taking moments for me too. The first time my father took me bow hunting around the age of 16, I had a couple of those moments the first weekend. It was surprising because I had never made an effort to sit quietly by myself in the woods before then. I was always walking or thrashing about or gabbing with a partner. I remember a few years after that first hunt. In mid summer, I decided to spend a afternoon sitting quietly in the woods. I don't think I was sitting more than 15 minutes before a buck walked right by me. I wonder how many different animals are watching from behind a tree when you are busy making noise. It's most exciting when they don't know you are there. Sometimes they get within 5 yards before they take notice. I get so excited I feel like screaming, not out of fear, just from the experience.
And with a rare sighting like a lion or bear up close, the excitement is magnified by the uniqueness: "Can this really be happening?" It's like being part of another world for a brief time." It's actually hard to explain what the experience is like. You can talk about it intellectually, but you can't share the emotional experience other than through words, which is a poor substitute.
One morning, on Thanksgiving (this was also in Willits), I was doing a bit of dawn hiking, and at one point I was standing among some bushes just looking around, when a doe approached me. I stood perfectly still, and the doe came right up and sniffed at me! Then she just turned to the bush and started eating the leaves, for about five minutes. I could see a buck on the other side of the bush, and he seemed to sense my presence, but he didn't seem to be at all afraid of me. I just stood stock still until the doe and buck wandered far enough away that my moving wouldn't startle them. Best Thanksgiving I've ever had!
When I came upon a doe in a small clearing, when I was 14 was great. When my dad and I were covered with ticks when I was 16, not so great.
Been to Willits several times. Twice by steam train from Ft Bragg.
Quote from: Baruch on July 23, 2018, 09:37:10 PM
When I came upon a doe in a small clearing, when I was 14 was great. When my dad and I were covered with ticks when I was 16, not so great.
Been to Willits several times. Twice by steam train from Ft Bragg.
That's called the Skunk Train--quite the ride! but then, the road from Willits to Ft. Bragg is quite the ride, as well. I taught at a continuation school in Lakeport for four years and one of those years we had a teacher named Gabe. He lived in Willits and drove that return trip daily. He lived in a commune and his home was a teepee. Yes, an actual teepee; he and his daughter. He gave all his earnings to that commune who then supplied all he needed. I was able to visit the commune once and I must admit I was not much impressed. And Gabe did caution us to stay within said commune, as wandering too far into the forest could be dangerous--marijuana plots were everywhere and often watched over by armed men. But that was many, many, many moons ago.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 21, 2018, 01:40:06 PM
Yeah, especially since it was the serpent who told the truth, and God that lied his ass off - if God can be said to have an ass. Presumably he does though, since Moses could only see his "back parts", and not his face...
Exodus 33:22-23
THat actually seems like a fun question to ask a preacher or priest. "Does God have an ass"? Does that mean he has to eat? Why? And where does his shit go (surely it can't sit around in heaven, HE has been there a long time and that would be worse than PR's SF complaint about feces), right? Or is that what "manna from Heaven" is? What does HE wipe HIS butt on? Clouds? Etc, etc. etc...
Quote from: Cavebear on July 25, 2018, 11:06:03 AM
THat actually seems like a fun question to ask a preacher or priest. "Does God have an ass"? Does that mean he has to eat? Why? And where does his shit go (surely it can't sit around in heaven, HE has been there a long time and that would be worse than PR's SF complaint about feces), right? Or is that what "manna from Heaven" is? What does HE wipe HIS butt on? Clouds? Etc, etc. etc...
"At the turn of the twentieth century, Arabs of the Sinai Peninsula were selling resin from the tamarisk tree as man es-simma, roughly meaning "heavenly manna".[15] Tamarisk trees (particularly Tamarix gallica) were once comparatively extensive throughout the southern Sinai, and their resin is similar to wax, melts in the sun, is sweet and aromatic (like honey), and has a dirty-yellow color, fitting somewhat with the Biblical descriptions of manna."
Not that a countless mob of people could have lived off of it. But stories are just stories. If you want to know something about the Bible, best to ask an Arab who actually lives in the area. But there were historically, refugees escaping from Egypt into the Sinai, and memories of that could have been incorporated into the fictional Exodus story (which was written sometime before 600 BCE). The Arabs and the tamarisk trees were there then too, not just earlier.
Quote from: Baruch on July 25, 2018, 12:56:31 PM
"At the turn of the twentieth century, Arabs of the Sinai Peninsula were selling resin from the tamarisk tree as man es-simma, roughly meaning "heavenly manna".[15] Tamarisk trees (particularly Tamarix gallica) were once comparatively extensive throughout the southern Sinai, and their resin is similar to wax, melts in the sun, is sweet and aromatic (like honey), and has a dirty-yellow color, fitting somewhat with the Biblical descriptions of manna."
Not that a countless mob of people could have lived off of it. But stories are just stories. If you want to know something about the Bible, best to ask an Arab who actually lives in the area. But there were historically, refugees escaping from Egypt into the Sinai, and memories of that could have been incorporated into the fictional Exodus story (which was written sometime before 600 BCE). The Arabs and the tamarisk trees were there then too, not just earlier.
I have never doubted that most stories in all religious texts had some part of truth to them. I've always viewed the bible as the struggle of some nomadic tribes to adapt to farming, personally. And some logical rules to adapting to living in larger communities with the complications that arose with it.
Quote from: Cavebear on July 25, 2018, 06:12:46 PM
I have never doubted that most stories in all religious texts had some part of truth to them. I've always viewed the bible as the struggle of some nomadic tribes to adapt to farming, personally. And some logical rules to adapting to living in larger communities with the complications that arose with it.
Successful propaganda usually contains some truth. Kernels of truth that by proximity add a bit of credibility to the whole. Not to say it makes a lie more logical, but for the unwary, it makes it seem more like truth. Caesar did exist, and so did the Egyptians. Some parts of the Bible are wholly made up and nothing about them is true. Adam and Eve! No one else was there to see it. I suppose Eve could have related the story to her great great grand niece, who started an oral tradition that passed on down the line until writing was invented. But there's a stretch of apologetics that would make the Pope proud. The part about the talking donkey was most likely pulled out of someone's ass, and the only truth was that one time some guy whipped his donkey for no particular reason, but that even less than a kernel.
Quote from: Cavebear on July 25, 2018, 06:12:46 PM
I have never doubted that most stories in all religious texts had some part of truth to them. I've always viewed the bible as the struggle of some nomadic tribes to adapt to farming, personally. And some logical rules to adapting to living in larger communities with the complications that arose with it.
Correct. Though Huckleberry Finn is also about boyhood in the US circa 1850. Most read it for entertainment though. Since there are no native speakers of Biblical Hebrew ... their natural fans are extinct. But it lives on thru more or less bad translations. Theology ... think of that as Cliff Notes for lazy kids.
Quote from: Baruch on July 25, 2018, 07:38:46 PM
Correct. Though Huckleberry Finn is also about boyhood in the US circa 1850. Most read it for entertainment though. Since there are no native speakers of Biblical Hebrew ... their natural fans are extinct. But it lives on thru more or less bad translations. Theology ... think of that as Cliff Notes for lazy kids.
Wrong again. Theology=tools of dictators.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 25, 2018, 08:05:20 PM
Wrong again. Theology=tools of dictators.
Ideology=tools of corporations
Quote from: Baruch on July 25, 2018, 08:20:27 PM
Ideology=tools of corporations
Actually, I should have said theology=tool of totalitarian dictator.
Corps don't have ideologies, they only have greed.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 25, 2018, 08:54:27 PM
Actually, I should have said theology=tool of totalitarian dictator.
Corps don't have ideologies, they only have greed.
You apparently have never read corporate vision statements ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on July 25, 2018, 09:33:33 PM
You apparently have never read corporate vision statements ;-)
vision=greed--maximize profits
Quote from: WingsofRefuge on July 17, 2018, 06:49:50 PM
Hi! I'm in the minority on this forum because of my Faith, yet I don't mind. I probably wouldn't be writing this if I did. Thanks for allowing me.
Welcome to the forum :)
Please excuse the mess, but it's Baruch's turn to vacuum.
Or, in other words, to be vacuous.
Quote from: SGOS on July 23, 2018, 02:11:48 PM
They are breath taking moments for me too. ...
And with a rare sighting like a lion or bear up close, the excitement is magnified by the uniqueness:
When I was a young boy I got my first slingshot. Out into the woods I tromped, at one spot pushing over a dead tree and there.....was a nest of baby mice. Naturally being a piece of shit male human I launched a bee-bee into the nest...maybe...probably killing one or two...don't know because immediately after the shot made a sound the parent mouse...didn't notice the genitalia, launched itself onto my leg, sending me screaming and writhing into the woods, dropping the slingshot (never to be found again) somewhere from A to Q and forever more...finding mice more terrifying than other forrest animals.
Mouse 1
aitm 0
Quote from: aitm on July 27, 2018, 06:55:01 PM
When I was a young boy I got my first slingshot. Out into the woods I tromped, at one spot pushing over a dead tree and there.....was a nest of baby mice. Naturally being a piece of shit male human I launched a bee-bee into the nest...maybe...probably killing one or two...don't know because immediately after the shot made a sound the parent mouse...didn't notice the genitalia, launched itself onto my leg, sending me screaming and writhing into the woods, dropping the slingshot (never to be found again) somewhere from A to Q and forever more...finding mice more terrifying than other forrest animals.
OK, that IS truly bizarre! I had to step in a rock wall that gave way to a yellow jacket nest to make me react like that. And I wasn't trying to bother them. And yes, yellow jackets give me the "willies" to this day.
Was playing catch with my son in 2001 in the yard.
Early November. Suddenly got a pain in my left thumb. Had to rip the glove off.
A yellow-jacket stung me under the left thumbnail. He'd been relaxing in the glove until I woke/disturbed him.
Don't ever get stung by a yellow-jacket directly under the thumbnail. Save time and shove a red-hot poker under your thumbnail.
Did we scare WingsofRefuge away?
Quote from: Blackleaf on August 02, 2018, 12:21:33 PM
Did we scare WingsofRefuge away?
The first rule of Fight Club, is don't talk about Fight Club.
Quote from: ferdmonger on August 01, 2018, 09:31:52 PM
Was playing catch with my son in 2001 in the yard.
Early November. Suddenly got a pain in my left thumb. Had to rip the glove off.
A yellow-jacket stung me under the left thumbnail. He'd been relaxing in the glove until I woke/disturbed him.
Don't ever get stung by a yellow-jacket directly under the thumbnail. Save time and shove a red-hot poker under your thumbnail.
Welcome.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on September 26, 2018, 11:36:36 PM
Did you forget your password?
No, this is the first time I've been here. I was just welcoming Thumpalumpacus.
I made my own introduction thread.
Quote from: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 05:10:03 PM
No, this is the first time I've been here. I was just welcoming Thumpalumpacus.
I made my own introduction thread.
You Necro'd the thread
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on September 27, 2018, 11:48:41 PM
You Necro'd the thread
I didn't see a Necro warning on any thread. Which thread did I necro? This one or my own?
My own was recent and this one was replied to by Thumpalumpacus himself recently only slightly before I replied to it myself.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on September 27, 2018, 11:48:41 PM
You Necro'd the thread
Odd. I don't know why my post saying "Welcome" is even in here. That was supposed to only be in Thumpalumpacus's thread.
Quote from: luckswallowsall on October 04, 2018, 11:27:57 AM
Odd. I don't know why my post saying "Welcome" is even in here. That was supposed to only be in Thumpalumpacus's thread.
This thread is sort of pooched. I just noticed I posted a quote with no content, LOL! Some days just go like that.