https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1ZZeCDGHJE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1ZZeCDGHJE)
This made me understand my childhood so much more, and it's crazy to think that things from 1900 years ago (like getting your foreskin removed before modern medicine) effected my life today, but also what culture the Western world would be today (Roman pagan vs Christian trinity).
I know all about that stuff, but I appreciated the video being posted. Some people could use it...
Shiranu - this might help
Cavebear - I already know everything
Often that series of animations on history are both to the point, and fairly accurate (but the Mongols are always the exception).
There was no unified Christianity before Constantine, and even for him, there was violent schism between Christians in Alexandria, 100 years before Hypatia. The Arian controversy went on for 100 years. But really it was about ... which bishop has the biggest prick. St Cyril of Alexandria ultimately showed he was the biggest prick. Pope Damasus was a pretty big prick too, a contested Papal election led to his followers murdering over a hundred supporters of another candidate in a neighboring church. Pope Damasus represented the upper class, the other guy represented the people and lower clergy. A council in Rome, in his anti-pontificate (which has invalidated all subsequent Popes IMHO), the RC determined for itself, the official Bible canon. And in his Pontificate, the Emperor in Constantinople, supported anti-Semitism and made his own Christianity the only legal religion.
Quote from: Baruch on July 17, 2018, 06:29:52 AM
Shiranu - this might help
Cavebear - I already know everything
Often that series of animations on history are both to the point, and fairly accurate (but the Mongols are always the exception).
There was no unified Christianity before Constantine, and even for him, there was violent schism between Christians in Alexandria, 100 years before Hypatia. The Arian controversy went on for 100 years. But really it was about ... which bishop has the biggest prick. St Cyril of Alexandria ultimately showed he was the biggest prick. Pope Damasus was a pretty big prick too, a contested Papal election led to his followers murdering over a hundred supporters of another candidate in a neighboring church. Pope Damasus represented the upper class, the other guy represented the people and lower clergy. A council in Rome, in his anti-pontificate (which has invalidated all subsequent Popes IMHO), the RC determined for itself, the official Bible canon. And in his Pontificate, the Emperor in Constantinople, supported anti-Semitism and made his own Christianity the only legal religion.
Hey, just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I don't know history.
But Hypatia, there's a rub of anger. Cyril mounted a mob against her and they flayed the flesh off her bones, before burning the Library of Alexandria. She, a scholar was skinned to death, and he was made a saint.
One of the many reasons to not quite love the Christian church in its actuality.
Quote from: Cavebear on July 25, 2018, 12:36:34 PM
Hey, just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I don't know history.
But Hypatia, there's a rub of anger. Cyril mounted a mob against her and they flayed the flesh off her bones, before burning the Library of Alexandria. She, a scholar was skinned to death, and he was made a saint.
One of the many reasons to not quite love the Christian church in its actuality.
Alexandrian politics was dirty and for keeps. Think of the Jews, Pagans and Christians in the city then as competing mafias.
Quote from: Baruch on July 25, 2018, 12:57:38 PM
Alexandrian politics was dirty and for keeps. Think of the Jews, Pagans and Christians in the city then as competing mafias.
Yeah, but a LIBRARIAN? AND ABALONE SHELLS?
Abominably twisted from The Music Man':
"Hypatia...Hypatia Librarian
What can I say, my dear, to catch your ear I love you madly, madly
Madam Librarian...
Hypatia Heaven help us if the library caught on fire
And the Volunteer Hose Brigademen
Had to whisper the news to Hypatia...
Madam Librarian
What can I say, my dear, to make it clear I need you badly, badly,
Madam Librarian...
Hypatia If I stumbled and I busted my what-you-may-call-it
I could lie on your floor unnoticed
'Till my body had turned to carrion...Madam Librarian..."Forgive me...
Sex starved celibates behave bizarrely.
Quote from: Baruch on July 25, 2018, 07:40:36 PM
Sex starved celibates behave bizarrely.
I suppose. But it is always good to get word from those who know... Thank you.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 01, 2018, 08:06:52 AM
I suppose. But it is always good to get word from those who know... Thank you.
So, still butt hurt about things that happened over 1000 years ago? Well, that makes you fit to be ... religious ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on August 01, 2018, 12:40:37 PM
So, still butt hurt about things that happened over 1000 years ago? Well, that makes you fit to be ... religious ;-)
The importance of what happened 1,000 years ago depends on the location...
World History 1000-1100 AD
Basil II Defeats Bulgarians, Canute II Rules England, Boleslav-King Of Poland, Ommiad Caliphate Of Spain Dissolved, Byzantine Empress Poison Husband, Sejuk Turks Take Bagdhad, Battle Of Hasting, Anwratha - Burma United, Tower Of London, Kingdom Of Ghana, Alfonso VI Conquers Toledo, El Cid Takes Valencia, First Crusades
1014 AD Basil II Defeats Bulgarians-The Byzantine Emperor Basil II routed the Bulgarians at the Battle of Cimbalugu. Basil killed most of the Bulgarian army, and then blinded 24,000 Bulgarian captives. The Bulgarians were forced to submit to Byzantine rule.
1016 AD Canute II Rules All Of England- On the death of Ethelred II the King of England, Edmund II succeeded to the throne. Canute II, a Dane, was chosen by the Witan- the advisory council to the King. Canute II battled Edmund at Ashington and defeated him. This led to Caunute II being crowned King of all England.
1025 AD Boleslav- First King Of Poland- Poland gained independence from the Holy Roman Empire when Boleslav I was crowned the first Polish King at Gniezno in 825. Poland quickly emerged as one of Europe's most powerful nations, extending from the Bugthe to the Elbe and from the Danube River to the Baltic Sea.
1031 AD The Ommiad Caliphate Of Spain Dissolved - After 30 years of anarchy, the Omayyad Caliphate of Spain dissolved on the death of Hisham III. Spain was divided into a number of small Muslim states.
1034 AD Byzantine Empress Poison Husband The Byzantine Empress Zoe poisoned her husband, Romanus III. She went on to marry Michael IV of Paphiagonia and then reigned together with him until 1041.
1055 AD Sejuk Turks Take Bagdhad- Seljuk Turks, under the command of Togrul, captured Baghdad. They ousted the Persian Buwayhid Dynasty. The Abbasides looked upon the Seljuks as liberators and supported them. The Seljuk Empire would reach it's zenith under Malik Shah who expanded the Empire to the point that it seriously threatened the Byzantine Empire's continued existence.
1057 AD Anwratha - Burma United - Anawratha, the Burmese king of Paga, conquered the Mon Kingdom of Thaton. For the first time, all of Burma was under unified rule.
Battle Of Hasting- At the Battle of Hastings, the Norman, William the Conqueror defeated Harold II, King of England. The victory led to the complete domination of England by the Normans. On December 25th, William was crowned King of England at Westminster Abbey.
1066 AD Tower Of London Constructed- William the Conquerer began building the Tower of London in 1066. It stands to this day.
1076 AD Kingdom Of Ghana Defeated- The Berber Almoravids conquered the Kingdom of Ghana. The capital Kumbi Saleh was sacked. The Ghanaian empire fell apart.
1085 AD Alfonso VI Conquers Toledo- Alfonso VI, the Christian King of Leon and Castile, captured Toledo from the Almoravids and made it his capital.
1094 AD El Cid Takes Valencia- Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar known as El Cid, captured the Moorish Kingdom of Valencia after a nine-month siege. Violating the terms of the surrender, El Cid had the Cadi ibn Djahaff burned alive.
1096 - 1099 First Crusades- The First Crusade began with a call By Alexius I in 1095 for assistance from other Christian states to counter repeated attacks made by Seljuk Turks. He also decried Muslim control of the Holy Land.
His call was echoed by the Pope. As many as 30,000 people responded and joined the Crusade. The Seljuk Muslims are easily defeated in Syria. In 1099, the Crusaders arrive in Jerusalem. They lay siege to the city, capture it and thoroughly sack it killing thousands of Muslims and Jews indiscriminately.
-------
Amazing...
Yeah, they used to have fun in the "good old days". It is always a good time to kill Jews.
Quote from: Baruch on August 04, 2018, 08:11:32 AM
Yeah, they used to have fun in the "good old days". It is always a good time to kill Jews.
And mostly everyone else, too. "Let God sort them out", as if being killed was a minor matter. What inane butchery...
Quote from: Cavebear on August 04, 2018, 08:16:53 AM
And mostly everyone else, too. "Let God sort them out", as if being killed was a minor matter. What inane butchery...
Read the specifics of where that quote comes from. Papal legate, at the sacking of Beziers France about 1209. That is also where "dogs of war" come from. They were ferrel teenage boys, not dogs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Béziers
The Catholic Church doesn't tolerate opposition (anti-Cathar Crusade). Some of the Crusades were against fellow Europeans. And the King of France (Paris and surrounds) was looking to extend his measly territory.
The heresies of the early days were more interesting.
Jesus was only divine
Jesus was only man
John was the messiah, not Jesus
The various Gnostic heresies
Today all we get is Creationism.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on August 15, 2018, 11:46:23 PM
The heresies of the early days were more interesting.
Jesus was only divine
Jesus was only man
John was the messiah, not Jesus
The various Gnostic heresies
Today all we get is Creationism.
Don't forget ..
Jesus is Jewish
Jesus is universal
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on August 15, 2018, 11:46:23 PM
The heresies of the early days were more interesting.
Jesus was only divine
Jesus was only man
John was the messiah, not Jesus
The various Gnostic heresies
Today all we get is Creationism.
Evidence of the existence of Jesus would be a good start to your supposition. Proof of divinity would be good too. Same about John (does that make you a "Johnist")?
Quote from: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 04:03:59 AM
Evidence of the existence of Jesus would be a good start to your supposition. Proof of divinity would be good too. Same about John (does that make you a "Johnist")?
Skepticism is good. There are lots of guys in Mexico named Jesus, today. Same with Anglos named John. And I lowered the bar on divinity.
Quote from: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 04:03:59 AM
Evidence of the existence of Jesus would be a good start to your supposition. Proof of divinity would be good too. Same about John (does that make you a "Johnist")?
He was only referencing early "heresies" not saying he believes any of them.
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 08, 2018, 02:26:29 PM
He was only referencing early "heresies" not saying he believes any of them.
I know. But I have to have some fun too. He DID kind of invite the "Johnism" reference. ;)
Quote from: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 02:31:23 PM
I know. But I have to have some fun too. He DID kind of invite the "Johnism" reference. ;)
Actually, Johnism is a thing. They are called Mandeans:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhP4n3SMs0w
If you aren't ignorant of Judaism etc, one will recognize this liturgical clothing with Jews on Yom Kippur (and burial customs), Muslims at Hajj and burial, Zoroastrians, early Christian baptisms. This is all part of comparative anthropology. Of course there have always been scoffers and the libertines.
People here are like colonialists gawking at pictures of women in the Amazon who don't wear a bra. We are the uber-mensch.
I thank God every day that I'm an unbeliever!
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 08, 2018, 02:41:10 PM
I thank God every day that I'm an unbeliever!
That way, you never have to take a bath ;-))
Quote from: Baruch on August 04, 2018, 08:11:32 AM
Yeah, they used to have fun in the "good old days". It is always a good time to kill Jews.
Quote from: Baruch on August 04, 2018, 08:11:32 AM
Yeah, they used to have fun in the "good old days". It is always a good time to kill Jews.
https://youtu.be/aIlJ8ZCs4jY (https://youtu.be/aIlJ8ZCs4jY)
So? - Dick Cheney, US President 2001 - 2009.
"Cassius Clay and Mrs. Wallace dancing cheek to cheek..."
What a lovely image!
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 09, 2018, 05:28:29 PM
"Cassius Clay and Mrs. Wallace dancing cheek to cheek..."
What a lovely image!
Don't incite race war, unless you are scalping tickets, and grubstaking the concessions.
I was hoping this thread would document the earliest schism among Christians - between Polycarp (and the Quartodecimans) and Victor and the western churches that rejected Nisan 14 as the date of the last supper.
My religion believes as did Polycarp and the Quartodecimans that Jesus observed the last supper on Passover night, Nisan 14.
But most religions in Christendom do not.
See:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Quartodecimanism
[Note - the Passover is mentioned repeatedly in the Bible but the Greek word is mistranslated Easter in one verse in KJV. Those of my religion have only one holy day - Nisan 14 - the Memorial of Christ's death (and the last supper - Jewish days begin and end with sunset)]
Quote from: Newtonian on March 21, 2020, 05:26:01 PM
I was hoping this thread would document the earliest schism among Christians - between Polycarp (and the Quartodecimans) and Victor and the western churches that rejected Nisan 14 as the date of the last supper.
My religion believes as did Polycarp and the Quartodecimans that Jesus observed the last supper on Passover night, Nisan 14.
But most religions in Christendom do not.
See:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Quartodecimanism
[Note - the Passover is mentioned repeatedly in the Bible but the Greek word is mistranslated Easter in one verse in KJV. Those of my religion have only one holy day - Nisan 14 - the Memorial of Christ's death (and the last supper - Jewish days begin and end with sunset)]
Correct, by the 3rd century CE ... the Western church, in its parochialism and anti-semitism moved away from the Jewish calendar. The Eastern church kept the Jewish calendar, though their reset of the calendar (as required by the rabbinic system) was under episcopal authority, not rabbinic. And even the rabbinic calendar was fully systematizes in the mid 4th century CE ... so that it no longer depended on Kohens in Palestine or Babylonia.
The Arab Muslims avoided all this, by sticking to a pure Lunar calendar, while the Romans kept to a pure Solar calendar (until the Gregorian reform) borrowed from Egypt, as Julius Caesar was influenced by Cleopatra ;-)
The Jewish/Muslim system of time also counts midnight as the start of the next day. So Jewish Sabbath starts at sundown Friday, and goes until sundown Saturday. Nobody used midnight as the start of the day, until modern times.
Schism....always cordial till they disagree, then the swords come out and whoever kills the most gets the win. Gotta love religion.
Quote from: aitm on March 21, 2020, 06:07:21 PM
Schism....always cordial till they disagree, then the swords come out and whoever kills the most gets the win. Gotta love religion.
So unlike politics.
Politics? No so much. Regimes...Kingdoms...Caliphate? Plenty of history there.
Quote from: aitm on March 21, 2020, 06:12:24 PM
Politics? No so much. Regimes...Kingdoms...Caliphate? Plenty of history there.
Difference without distinction. The man with the gold rules the economy. The man with the gun rules the man with the gold.
Quote from: Baruch on March 21, 2020, 06:03:30 PM
Correct, by the 3rd century CE ... the Western church, in its parochialism and anti-semitism moved away from the Jewish calendar. The Eastern church kept the Jewish calendar, though their reset of the calendar (as required by the rabbinic system) was under episcopal authority, not rabbinic. And even the rabbinic calendar was fully systematizes in the mid 4th century CE ... so that it no longer depended on Kohens in Palestine or Babylonia.
The Arab Muslims avoided all this, by sticking to a pure Lunar calendar, while the Romans kept to a pure Solar calendar (until the Gregorian reform) borrowed from Egypt, as Julius Caesar was influenced by Cleopatra ;-)
The Jewish/Muslim system of time also counts midnight as the start of the next day. So Jewish Sabbath starts at sundown Friday, and goes until sundown Saturday. Nobody used midnight as the start of the day, until modern times.
True, but this schism started in the 2nd century and is the first schism that I know of.
From:
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Polycarp
"Pol·y·carp (pÅl′Ä"-kärp′), Saint ad 69?-155?
Christian martyr. A student of the Apostle John, he was burned at the stake during a period of persecution of Christians in Smyrna."
Note that Polycarp was a student of the apostle John- the claim that there is a gap in history is not factual. Victor was the apostate, not Polycarp who stuck with apostolic beliefs.
Yes, this schism lasted a long time. It actually still exists!
Quote from: Baruch on March 21, 2020, 06:14:05 PM
Difference without distinction. The man with the gold rules the economy. The man with the gun rules the man with the gold.
Exactly.
The first schism (per Eusebius) was Peter vs James. Later Paul vs Peter. This was all 1st century. Polycarp was 2nd century. There were many heresiarchs by that time.
A case can be made that the Gospel of John is closest to Paul. The Synoptics are closest to Peter (and Mark). Later Christian theology was divided between Rome, Antioch and Alexandria (proto-patriarchs). The Jewish Church (and Jewish messianism) was discredited by the 3rd Jewish-Roman war (Bar Kochba). The three Jewish-Roman wars led to huge anti-semitism in the Pauline churches (which were pro-Roman). From 135 CE, the churches were mostly Pauline but distrustful of pentecostalism and millennialism (anti-Montanus). The Roman church used the Greek Bible until the mid 3rd century, by which time the majority of congregants were Latin speaking. Latin wasn't common in the Western Church until after that, and got solidified in the mid-4th century by the Jerome Vulgate (which took centuries to become standard).
Quote from: Baruch on March 21, 2020, 09:04:26 PM
The first schism (per Eusebius) was Peter vs James. Later Paul vs Peter. This was all 1st century. Polycarp was 2nd century. There were many heresiarchs by that time.
A case can be made that the Gospel of John is closest to Paul. The Synoptics are closest to Peter (and Mark). Later Christian theology was divided between Rome, Antioch and Alexandria (proto-patriarchs). The Jewish Church (and Jewish messianism) was discredited by the 3rd Jewish-Roman war (Bar Kochba). The three Jewish-Roman wars led to huge anti-semitism in the Pauline churches (which were pro-Roman). From 135 CE, the churches were mostly Pauline but distrustful of pentecostalism and millennialism (anti-Montanus). The Roman church used the Greek Bible until the mid 3rd century, by which time the majority of congregants were Latin speaking. Latin wasn't common in the Western Church until after that, and got solidified in the mid-4th century by the Jerome Vulgate (which took centuries to become standard).
There is no difference in the teachings of any of the apostles. Polycarp was a student of the apostle John and was loyal to apostolic teachings. Also, Polycarp lived between 70 and 155 CE - hence BOTH 1st and 2nd centuries.
Remember, Jesus did not start a new religion and Jesus was Jewish, as were all of the apostles. However, Jesus claimed to be the Messiah as per many messianic prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures. For example, being born in Bethlehem - Micah 5:2.
All of the apostles and Christian Greek Scripture (aka NT) writers taught the same as Jesus taught.
Btw - Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus was/is the Messiah.
Did you have some specific teaching in mind?
Quote from: Newtonian on March 23, 2020, 09:07:47 AM
There is no difference in the teachings of any of the apostles. Polycarp was a student of the apostle John and was loyal to apostolic teachings. Also, Polycarp lived between 70 and 155 CE - hence BOTH 1st and 2nd centuries.
Remember, Jesus did not start a new religion and Jesus was Jewish, as were all of the apostles. However, Jesus claimed to be the Messiah as per many messianic prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures. For example, being born in Bethlehem - Micah 5:2.
All of the apostles and Christian Greek Scripture (aka NT) writers taught the same as Jesus taught.
Btw - Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus was/is the Messiah.
Did you have some specific teaching in mind?
That is apologetics. Not history. Not that it is wrong to be semi-orthodox.