link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAJF14LwxCM)
Quote from: Tucker CarlsonAuthoritarianism. That's what our ruling class says it fears, it says it all the time. Okay. Let's say you were an authoritarian, and wanted to weaken American democracy and impose an oligarchy on the country. How would you go about doing that? Maybe you'd start by trying to control what people say and think.. You would work to disarm the population, take their guns away. That way, they would be entirely dependent on you for their safety, not to mention unable to resist your plans for them.
Then, just to make sure you've quelled all opposition to your power, you'd systematically target any institution that might oppose or put brakes on your power. You'd be especially concerned about churches, the family, and independent businesses, you'd be determined to crush those using laws and relentless propaganda.
If, despite all of that, elections still didn't go your way, use an entrenched, unelected bureaucracy to neuter any leader you hadn't hand-picked yourself. You'd be shaken by an election like that. You'd resolve never to allow one again. To make sure of that, you'd work tirelessly to replace the old and ungrateful population with a new and more obedient one.
Sound familiar? We're not talking about Donald Trump. For all his faults, Trump isn't doing any of that. Our ruling class is. And that's what all these issues are really about. The speech codes, the calls for gun control, the relentless attacks on the nuclear family, the demand for unlimited mass immigration. None of that is designed to help you. None of that will make you happier or more prosperous. That's not the point. The point is to make you more dependent on the people who are yelling at you right now on cable television They're the authoritarians.
Trump is part of the ruling class. But rogue ... not maverick like $&$^ McCain.
You are all owned, like Uncle Tom ... trapped in your log cabin down on the plantation, thinking that an iPhone will free you.
Carlson's just using strawmen and whataboutisms.
I do think Trump is a Russian spy bent on destroying America. But then, I'm a cynical pessimist, so what I think doesn't count.
Point is if you were trying to slow-creep authoritarianism that would be the way to do it.
And let's look at this from a simpler, "cui bono" perspective.
Who benefits from unlimited mass migration? Could it be that this migrant population has different voting patterns from the existing population?
Who benefits from, or even requires a mass disarmament of the population?
Does democracy/general liberty benefit from a general neutering of independent institutions?
Quote from: orcus on July 14, 2018, 05:28:11 PM
Who benefits from, or even requires a mass disarmament of the population?
That's a good question, since I know of no one who's trying to do that. But I know the Democratic party has been constantly
accused by the right-wing meme machine of wanting to "take our guns!" It's a bullshit accusation, though. Asking for tighter controls on the selling of weapons of mass destruction so that maniacs won't be as likely to kill dozens of victims at a time is most definitely NOT asking for "mass disarmament of the population."
That's what I meant when I mentioned strawmen.
he's got a weird face.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 14, 2018, 01:55:14 PM
Carlson's just using strawmen and whataboutisms.
I do think Trump is a Russian spy bent on destroying America. But then, I'm a cynical pessimist, so what I think doesn't count.
I don't think he's intelligent enough to be a useful spy. He's just a brainless and easily manipulated tool in Vlad
the Impaler Putin's hands.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 14, 2018, 01:55:14 PM
Carlson's just using strawmen and whataboutisms.
I do think Trump is a Russian spy bent on destroying America. But then, I'm a cynical pessimist, so what I think doesn't count.
This is pessimism ... that the US was the bad guy all along ... I don't think so, but I think Shiranu does.
What do you have against Russians ... are you bigoted?
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 14, 2018, 05:34:25 PM
That's a good question, since I know of no one who's trying to do that. But I know the Democratic party has been constantly accused by the right-wing meme machine of wanting to "take our guns!" It's a bullshit accusation, though. Asking for tighter controls on the selling of weapons of mass destruction so that maniacs won't be as likely to kill dozens of victims at a time is most definitely NOT asking for "mass disarmament of the population."
That's what I meant when I mentioned strawmen.
Actually the D party (not all D voters) ... want the same thing Attila wants ... rape, plunder and murder. All political parties want that. Politics is how we virtue signal our evil made legal. Everything Hitler did was legal ...
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 14, 2018, 05:34:25 PM
That's a good question, since I know of no one who's trying to do that. But I know the Democratic party has been constantly accused by the right-wing meme machine of wanting to "take our guns!" It's a bullshit accusation, though. Asking for tighter controls on the selling of weapons of mass destruction so that maniacs won't be as likely to kill dozens of victims at a time is most definitely NOT asking for "mass disarmament of the population."
That's what I meant when I mentioned strawmen.
You should pull your head out of your you-know-what sometimes and look around. I saw this shit in the 60s, and 50 years later, here it is again. Communists under every bed ... though I happen to agree, that automatic weapons should be illegal.
(D)'s want guns to be illegal so that when the looting begins in earnest their enemies won't be able to defend themselves. Leftism in the long term is nothing but a pretext for widespread looting and theft. Did you know that one of the biggest preoccupations of the French Republic was "requisitioning" grain from farmers? People talk in abstracts to make these "democratic" people seem benevolent but once you get down to brass tacks things don't look so good.
Quote from: orcus on July 15, 2018, 08:29:15 AM
(D)'s want guns to be illegal so that when the looting begins in earnest their enemies won't be able to defend themselves. Leftism in the long term is nothing but a pretext for widespread looting and theft. Did you know that one of the biggest preoccupations of the French Republic was "requisitioning" grain from farmers? People talk in abstracts to make these "democratic" people seem benevolent but once you get down to brass tacks things don't look so good.
This is why regular revolutions (not the American kind) are not fun. It is the general public going feral. Or in the case of the American colonies, about 25% feral, 25% loyal and 50% get out of my log cabin. In the French revolution, except for a few folks going exile ... the majority of the combatants had no place to go, they had to stand and fight, and die. Until the military dictatorship ended it ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzYrLNcspNU
Royalist counter-revolutionaries under every bed ... gotta kill them!
Quote from: trdsf on July 14, 2018, 10:02:00 PM
I don't think he's intelligent enough to be a useful spy. He's just a brainless and easily manipulated tool in Vlad the Impaler Putin's hands.
I think he's more of an operative than a spy, actually. A spy just gathers intelligence, whereas an operative actually does stuff. And Trump's doing plenty. I'm beginning to think his brainless appearance may be an act.
Quote from: Baruch on July 14, 2018, 10:29:00 PM
This is pessimism ... that the US was the bad guy all along ... I don't think so, but I think Shiranu does.
What do you have against Russians ... are you bigoted?
Yes, I'm bigoted against anyone who would manipulate our election process in order to place their hand-picked operative in our most important political office.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 15, 2018, 05:31:37 PM
Yes, I'm bigoted against anyone who would manipulate our election process in order to place their hand-picked operative in our most important political office.
Every Intelligence Service does that in every election, in every country. Life isn't fair, and if you don't vote the right way, it doesn't count. I bet you had bullies as a child, who took your glasses and stomped on them!
Yes, Trump is just acting (he had a TV show just like Ronald Reagan). All our leaders are modest geniuses, just like Ronald ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5wfPlgKFh8
Quote from: Baruch on July 15, 2018, 06:27:25 PM
Every Intelligence Service does that in every election, in every country.
No, I don't believe they do. Got any evidence that the do?
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 15, 2018, 06:28:42 PM
No, I don't believe they do. Got any evidence that the do?
You are a Know Nothing ... so you must be about 150 years old or older ...
Oh, good, an ad hominem attack instead of simply supporting your position with evidence. Then apparently you have no evidence to support your position.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 15, 2018, 06:45:08 PM
Oh, good, an ad hominem attack instead of simply supporting your position with evidence. Then apparently you have no evidence to support your position.
So, part of the coverup, eh? Have you seen the REAL Zapruder film? Well I probably don't want to see you naked, so a coverup isn't a bad idea.
You think that reality doesn't exist ... aka nihilism. Which if you accept Descartes anyway, that means you are a solipsist QED. The ultimate narcissist.
If a secret government operation isn't on your video camera, it didn't happen, right?
Quote from: Baruch on July 15, 2018, 06:59:52 PM
Well I probably don't want to see you naked, so a coverup isn't a bad idea.
I'll have you know that I look very good naked! ;-D
QuoteYou think that reality doesn't exist ... aka nihilism. Which if you accept Descartes anyway, that means you are a solipsist QED. The ultimate narcissist.
That's not what
I mean by the term nihilism. I've never said that reality doesn't exist. Why must you put words in the mouths (or fingers, as the case may be) of posters?
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 15, 2018, 07:06:20 PM
I'll have you know that I look very good naked! ;-D
That's not what I mean by the term nihilism. I've never said that reality doesn't exist. Why must you put words in the mouths (or fingers, as the case may be) of posters?
My confusion is just like other people, it is the way we roll. But since you played the "if it falls and nobody hears it" card ... it seemed the right response at the time.
Give me proof that Kennedy was assassinated? You can't, if you just keep raising the stakes on what is proof. Easy denial that way.
Quote from: Baruch on July 15, 2018, 07:26:29 PM
But since you played the "if it falls and nobody hears it" card ... it seemed the right response at the time.
Uh...what? When did I do that?
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 15, 2018, 07:34:52 PM
Uh...what? When did I do that?
We all do, at one time or another. Unconscious rhetorical gambit. Ask for proof ... I respond bluntly ...
If I had someone meet you face to face, who was "there" an eye-witness ... if they didn't confirm your bias, you would ask them for proof ;-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_electoral_intervention
Yeah, fake news ...
Well, I didn't say Americas is completely innocent of such political tactics(Iran 1953, Shah, for example)
Quote from: Baruch on July 15, 2018, 07:39:30 PM
We all do, at one time or another. Unconscious rhetorical gambit.
I play gambits in chess, not conversations.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 15, 2018, 07:44:34 PM
Well, I didn't say Americas is completely innocent of such political tactics(Iran 1953, Shah, for example)
I play gambits in chess, not conversations.
You could have fooled me ... many have tried, and failed ;-)
So I don't understand your original denial. Are you saying that only American regimes are evil?
Quote from: Baruch on July 15, 2018, 06:27:25 PM
Every Intelligence Service does that in every election, in every country.
I don't think
every country resorts to such tactics even if
some do.
Quote from: orcus on July 15, 2018, 08:29:15 AM
(D)'s want guns to be illegal so that when the looting begins in earnest their enemies won't be able to defend themselves.
You got me. Alas, my devious plot of white genocide has been discovered by the intelligent, ever-wary defenders of liberty - American conservatives.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 16, 2018, 02:06:16 PM
I don't think every country resorts to such tactics even if some do.
Not every human has four limbs, some are born that way, some are amputees. Does that disprove the common sense notion of what a human is like? Only if you are a sophist, who builds a worm hole of semantic self reference.
No, only Russia is evil, only America is virtuous ... under Obama only.
Quote from: Hydra009 on July 16, 2018, 03:43:02 PM
You got me. Alas, my devious plot of white genocide has been discovered by the intelligent, ever-wary defenders of liberty - American conservatives.
Nobody is in favor of liberty ... that is a straw man. All political positions are straw men. If it helps you win an argument, it is necessarily true.
Democrats were and still are ... the party of over-immigration, of oppression, or war mongering. If I had understood that when I was 18, I would never have voted for any of their candidates. That and because HH failed to get elected in 1968, the Democrats went full Ho Chi Minh communist under McGovern in 1972. Another reason to never ever vote for them.
Quote from: orcus on July 14, 2018, 05:28:11 PM
Point is if you were trying to slow-creep authoritarianism that would be the way to do it.
And let's look at this from a simpler, "cui bono" perspective.
Who benefits from unlimited mass migration? Could it be that this migrant population has different voting patterns from the existing population?
Who benefits from, or even requires a mass disarmament of the population?
Does democracy/general liberty benefit from a general neutering of independent institutions?
So what are your answers to your own questions?
Quote from: orcus on July 14, 2018, 12:01:00 PM
link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAJF14LwxCM)
Felt like I'm watching V for Vendetta.
Quote from: Sylar on July 17, 2018, 03:51:12 PM
Felt like I'm watching V for Vendetta.
Well, the adult comic book is better than the movie, of course ;-)
Quote from: Cavebear on July 17, 2018, 02:46:31 AM
So what are your answers to your own questions?
FOR LAZY/STRAIGHT UP STUPID FUCKS
QuoteWho benefits from unlimited mass migration? Could it be that this migrant population has different voting patterns from the existing population?
Large-scale farmers and businesspeople who want to use them as cheap/subsidized labor. Left wing politicians and professors who think they'll be easy targets for indoctrination, who will serve as a private army in the voting booths and, if necessary, in the streets.
QuoteWho benefits from, or even requires a mass disarmament of the population?
Anyone promoting unpopular and even destructive policies. Tyrants.
QuoteDoes democracy/general liberty benefit from a general neutering of independent institutions?
No.
Quote from: orcus on July 19, 2018, 12:46:42 AM
FOR LAZY/STRAIGHT UP STUPID FUCKS
Large-scale farmers and businesspeople who want to use them as cheap/subsidized labor. Left wing politicians and professors who think they'll be easy targets for indoctrination, who will serve as a private army in the voting booths and, if necessary, in the streets.
Anyone promoting unpopular and even destructive policies. Tyrants.
No.
It is always good to see crazy people who think they would beat the US army if there ever WAS an attempted takeover from either side. Not that the US army would.
And BTW, it seems like you are arguing both for and against immigration...
According to this guy the Army has run all kinds of war games that prove that your (D) party fantasies of unconditional State omnipotence are just that, fantasies.
(https://imgur.com/BwMRMuz.png)
If the President is D, the military will support any lawful orders. If the President is an R, the military will support any lawful orders. The military (who I work with every day) follow orders ... provided that it is Constitutional. The problem in 1861, is the moronic South didn't get a secession amendment added to the Constitution when they could have. However, Southerners like Andrew Jackson, would have considered that treason anyway. Jackson kept slaves where he lived in Tennessee. When states ignore valid Federal law as California threatens, nullification ... that is something that Andrew Jackson would have gone to war over, same as Abraham Lincoln. General Sherman loved Southern culture and hated Blacks, but he burned Georgia down. Why? Because secession was treason to him.
So no, please don't start a civil war. It won't be nice, won't end nicely. It was Russia BTW, that protected the US from European interference during the US civil war. GB wanted to intervene, to reclaim their colonies. France violated the Monroe Doctrine (it isn't French law) by invading Mexico. As soon as the US civil war was over, they had to abandon their colony there. But earlier, without French/Spanish/Dutch/Danish assistance, the US would never have happened. We get foreign interference every day, not just if we have a civil war. That is what the current trade war is all about.
Quote from: Baruch on July 22, 2018, 08:01:52 AM
If the President is D, the military will support any lawful orders. If the President is an R, the military will support any lawful orders. The military (who I work with every day) follow orders ... provided that it is Constitutional. The problem in 1861, is the moronic South didn't get a secession amendment added to the Constitution when they could have. However, Southerners like Andrew Jackson, would have considered that treason anyway. Jackson kept slaves where he lived in Tennessee. When states ignore valid Federal law as California threatens, nullification ... that is something that Andrew Jackson would have gone to war over, same as Abraham Lincoln. General Sherman loved Southern culture and hated Blacks, but he burned Georgia down. Why? Because secession was treason to him.
So no, please don't start a civil war. It won't be nice, won't end nicely. It was Russia BTW, that protected the US from European interference during the US civil war. GB wanted to intervene, to reclaim their colonies. France violated the Monroe Doctrine (it isn't French law) by invading Mexico. As soon as the US civil war was over, they had to abandon their colony there. But earlier, without French/Spanish/Dutch/Danish assistance, the US would never have happened. We get foreign interference every day, not just if we have a civil war. That is what the current trade war is all about.
I sort of agree, but will note that Europe did not quite understand that at the end of the US Civil War, the US had the best army and military manufacturing in the world. Something we (thankfully) didn't have to replicate until WWI and WWII.
Quote from: Cavebear on July 25, 2018, 05:56:34 AM
I sort of agree, but will note that Europe did not quite understand that at the end of the US Civil War, the US had the best army and military manufacturing in the world. Something we (thankfully) didn't have to replicate until WWI and WWII.
Historically correct. You didn't learn only academic propaganda. By 1865, I am sure the world wanted the US to demobilize. Given Grant and Sherman ;-(
Quote from: Baruch on July 25, 2018, 06:18:14 AM
Historically correct. You didn't learn only academic propaganda. By 1865, I am sure the world wanted the US to demobilize. Given Grant and Sherman ;-(
You are being unusually agreeable. And I do appreciate that. Well, the US Civil War has always been a great interest since I lived 5 years in my teens on a battlefield (Petersburg) and have a dozen minnie balls ( a French invention). I would have a bucketful, but we kids sold them to the local museum (Fort Hell). The best one was 3 Minnie balls all in collision. I sure wish I had kept that one. And the creek across the street was actually a battlefield trench. My friend found a dozen untouched Minnie-balls all stacked ready for use.
The Union ironclad monitors really changed things in England and France. It wasn't just anti-slavery And Gettysburg that made them hesitate to support the South. They were terrified the US Union would sail into their harbors with unsinkable little ships.
Quote from: Cavebear on July 25, 2018, 06:30:24 AM
You are being unusually agreeable. And I do appreciate that. Well, the US Civil War has always been a great interest since I lived 5 years in my teens on a battlefield (Petersburg) and have a dozen minnie balls ( a French invention). I would have a bucketful, but we kids sold them to the local museum (Fort Hell). The best one was 3 Minnie balls all in collision. I sure wish I had kept that one. And the creek across the street was actually a battlefield trench. My friend found a dozen untouched Minnie-balls all stacked ready for use.
The Union ironclad monitors really changed things in England and France. It wasn't just anti-slavery And Gettysburg that made them hesitate to support the South. They were terrified the US Union would sail into their harbors with unsinkable little ships.
We can agree on facts, even facts of history. But history is often slathered in a think layer of propaganda. Yes, France saw the USS Kearsarge sink the CSS Alabama off of the French coast.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Kearsarge_(1861)#/media/File:Édouard_Manet-Kearsarge-Alabama2.jpg
The CSS Alabama was the only Civil War era model ship I built as a boy.
Quote from: Baruch on July 25, 2018, 06:36:44 AM
We can agree on facts, even facts of history. But history is often slathered in a think layer of propaganda. Yes, France saw the USS Kearsarge sink the CSS Alabama off of the French coast.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Kearsarge_(1861)#/media/File:Édouard_Manet-Kearsarge-Alabama2.jpg
The CSS Alabama was the only Civil War era model ship I built as a boy.
I appreciate facts. And when you use them, I love it.
Impressed by the CSS Alabama model. I built a USS Nautilus with hundreds of tiny pieces in the half-section. Real tweezer stuff. I went nearly crazy doing it. Did you do all the rigging? I found a picture, and it was impressive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSS_Alabama#/media/File:CSSAlabama.jpg
Quote from: Cavebear on July 25, 2018, 07:06:45 AM
I appreciate facts. And when you use them, I love it.
Impressed by the CSS Alabama model. I built a USS Nautilus with hundreds of tiny pieces in the half-section. Real tweezer stuff. I went nearly crazy doing it. Did you do all the rigging? I found a picture, and it was impressive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSS_Alabama#/media/File:CSSAlabama.jpg
I was never big on rigging, I cheated with just plastic sails. I did build one Polaris class nuke sub model.
Quote from: Baruch on July 25, 2018, 07:16:17 AM
I was never big on rigging, I cheated with just plastic sails. I did build one Polaris class nuke sub model.
So much for "ships in a bottle" for either of us, LOL!
Quote from: Cavebear on July 25, 2018, 07:18:06 AM
So much for "ships in a bottle" for either of us, LOL!
The wooden models with metal parts and full rigging, even to scale, would take a big bottle!
Quote from: Baruch on July 25, 2018, 01:06:17 PM
The wooden models with metal parts and full rigging, even to scale, would take a big bottle!
I thought "they" made bottles just for that purpose.
Quote from: Cavebear on July 25, 2018, 01:08:34 PM
I thought "they" made bottles just for that purpose.
Actual ones I have seen ... glass cabinets with wooden frames.
Quote from: Baruch on July 25, 2018, 01:09:31 PM
Actual ones I have seen ... glass cabinets with wooden frames.
I actually tried to find the large glass bottles for a ship. No luck.
Quote from: Cavebear on July 25, 2018, 02:29:08 PM
I actually tried to find the large glass bottles for a ship. No luck.
Multi gallon water jugs from water coolers?
Quote from: Baruch on July 25, 2018, 07:56:57 PM
Multi gallon water jugs from water coolers?
The ones I have seen are all plastic. A true glass water cooler jug would be good.
There are points where I think, "You know, maybe pr is right... maybe attacking the source's legitimacy is wrong, and I should only focus on the content."
Then I see people post Tucker Carlson and I say, "Nah, fuck that. Quoting the TC is an instant L."
Quote from: Shiranu on August 01, 2018, 02:31:14 AM
There are points where I think, "You know, maybe pr is right... maybe attacking the source's legitimacy is wrong, and I should only focus on the content."
Then I see people post Tucker Carlson and I say, "Nah, fuck that. Quoting the TC is an instant L."
The source matters. A source dedicated to one view is not to be trusted.
QuoteA source dedicated to one view is not to be trusted.
Sounds nice in theory, but is it practicable? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGscoaUWW2M)
Quote from: Shiranu on August 01, 2018, 02:31:14 AM
There are points where I think, "You know, maybe pr is right... maybe attacking the source's legitimacy is wrong, and I should only focus on the content."
Then I see people post Tucker Carlson and I say, "Nah, fuck that. Quoting the TC is an instant L."
A true skeptic attacks everything, except himself. Don't stop now!
Quote from: Cavebear on August 01, 2018, 02:47:30 AM
The source matters. A source dedicated to one view is not to be trusted.
If you rely on any authority, other than your own, you might as well live at the Vatican.
Quote from: Baruch on August 01, 2018, 01:09:25 PM
If you rely on any authority, other than your own, you might as well live at the Vatican.
I don't, though I do think science is build incrementally and that IS a sort of authority. Like F=MA...
Quote from: Cavebear on August 04, 2018, 02:38:28 AM
I don't, though I do think science is build incrementally and that IS a sort of authority. Like F=MA...
Yes. Useful pragmatic formulas, that don't ever claim to be ultimate truth (except by scientist wannabes). It is advisable to not ignore physical reality, particularly when jumping off the roofs of barns in a doomed attempt to fly.