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Arts and Entertainment => Film, Music, Sports, and more => Topic started by: GSOgymrat on July 12, 2018, 02:59:05 PM

Title: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: GSOgymrat on July 12, 2018, 02:59:05 PM
Sixty-two years after its debut it appears that the movie "Forbidden Planet" got the sounds right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWHLCHv4PiI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj6lUC6K4VQ
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Munch on July 12, 2018, 03:11:21 PM
Spooky. I remember watching a documentary that explained the physics of Saturn and Jupiter, how though there is no solid surface, the immense gravity at its core is so heavy the molecules of its gases become so dense it's like a solid mass. Though nothing could get near its core due to this immense mass crushing anything the deeper it goes
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on July 12, 2018, 04:32:51 PM
"
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Spooky. I remember watching a documentary that explained the physics of Satan and Jupiter, ...
That would be no shit spooky.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Munch on July 12, 2018, 04:47:13 PM
Apparently my auto correct was set to christian mode
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Cavebear on July 13, 2018, 03:45:58 AM
It seems that all the planets bey9nd Earth have some body of liquid water in or at their moons due to internal or tidal forces.  That increases the possibility of simple life everywhere unless our solar system is unique and I doubt that.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Blackleaf on July 15, 2018, 09:44:38 AM
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It seems that all the planets bey9nd Earth have some body of liquid water in or at their moons due to internal or tidal forces.  That increases the possibility of simple life everywhere unless our solar system is unique and I doubt that.

I'm almost completely certain that there is alien life somewhere out there in this vast universe. The question is, can we find it or is the hay stack too big for us to find the needle? And even if we could find a life-bearing planet, could we even observe or interact with it? Because of how long it takes for light to reach us, any life bearing planet we discover could already be desolate by the time we see it.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on July 15, 2018, 10:10:57 AM
Two trillion galaxies, one hundred billion stars per galaxy. That's ... many ... system that might harbor life. If one in a billion had intelligent life we still would be too far away to hear from them before they passed into history. Many probably already have.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on July 15, 2018, 10:12:15 AM
BTW, I told that to one of my cousins and he replied that he'd heard of billionaires, but not trillionaires, so I must be making that one up.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Baruch on July 15, 2018, 01:04:10 PM
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BTW, I told that to one of my cousins and he replied that he'd heard of billionaires, but not trillionaires, so I must be making that one up.

Not really, the Rothschilds, the Pope, and the Queen may be ... trillionaires.  They don't have to report to the IRS.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: trdsf on July 16, 2018, 01:24:13 PM
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I'm almost completely certain that there is alien life somewhere out there in this vast universe. The question is, can we find it or is the hay stack too big for us to find the needle? And even if we could find a life-bearing planet, could we even observe or interact with it? Because of how long it takes for light to reach us, any life bearing planet we discover could already be desolate by the time we see it.
Everything we know about life just from our own one example here on Earth is that once it gets started, it gets into everything.  Think about some of the extreme environments that even within the last twenty five years or so, biologists would have all but ruled out as habitats -- and yet they host microorganisms.  Where we used to have a very specific list for life: CHONPS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHON), liquid water, temperatures within a particular range, solar/tidal/geothermal energy sources.  Now it's beginning to look like a solvent (not necessarily water) and an energy source could be all it takes to build an environment.

So I'm bullish on (very simple) life within our own solar system.  I'm optimistic for the depths of Hellas Basin, where Martian atmospheric pressures just allow for the presence of liquid water.  I'm also optimistic about the remains of the Martian Oceanus Borealis (if it proves to have existed; there are tantalizing clues but nothing definitive), and Martian permafrost, and the Martian polar caps.  Got to go where the water is, at least on Mars.

But Mars is kind of low-hanging fruit, life-wise.  Enough material has transferred between the Earth and Mars over geologic time that it would not be surprising to find Martian life is DNA based either because it was contaminated by Earth life... or that Earth life started on Mars and found a more stable and suitable environment here.

So the really interesting places are Ganymede and Europa at Jupiter, and Enceladus at Saturn, because any life there would almost have had to independently start there.  While it's relatively easy to get impact ejecta from Earth to Mars, it's all but impossible to get it much further out, or get it from there to here.  I know I had an article on that, but I can't find it and I will keep up the search until I do.

Target Number One must be Enceladus.  It's effectively isolated from interplanetary contamination from Earth (and Mars), and thanks to Cassini's flythrough of the Enceladan geysers, we're confident there should be active black or white smokers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrothermal_vent) there (or something very like them), and we know those are viable habitats.  Europa is close enough to Jupiter that it is expected to have them too, as a result of tidal flexing, but Enceladus so far as I know is the only extraterrestrial place we have direct evidence to indicate them.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Cavebear on July 17, 2018, 04:10:44 AM
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Everything we know about life just from our own one example here on Earth is that once it gets started, it gets into everything.  Think about some of the extreme environments that even within the last twenty five years or so, biologists would have all but ruled out as habitats -- and yet they host microorganisms.  Where we used to have a very specific list for life: CHONPS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHON), liquid water, temperatures within a particular range, solar/tidal/geothermal energy sources.  Now it's beginning to look like a solvent (not necessarily water) and an energy source could be all it takes to build an environment.

So I'm bullish on (very simple) life within our own solar system.  I'm optimistic for the depths of Hellas Basin, where Martian atmospheric pressures just allow for the presence of liquid water.  I'm also optimistic about the remains of the Martian Oceanus Borealis (if it proves to have existed; there are tantalizing clues but nothing definitive), and Martian permafrost, and the Martian polar caps.  Got to go where the water is, at least on Mars.

But Mars is kind of low-hanging fruit, life-wise.  Enough material has transferred between the Earth and Mars over geologic time that it would not be surprising to find Martian life is DNA based either because it was contaminated by Earth life... or that Earth life started on Mars and found a more stable and suitable environment here.

So the really interesting places are Ganymede and Europa at Jupiter, and Enceladus at Saturn, because any life there would almost have had to independently start there.  While it's relatively easy to get impact ejecta from Earth to Mars, it's all but impossible to get it much further out, or get it from there to here.  I know I had an article on that, but I can't find it and I will keep up the search until I do.

Target Number One must be Enceladus.  It's effectively isolated from interplanetary contamination from Earth (and Mars), and thanks to Cassini's flythrough of the Enceladan geysers, we're confident there should be active black or white smokers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrothermal_vent) there (or something very like them), and we know those are viable habitats.  Europa is close enough to Jupiter that it is expected to have them too, as a result of tidal flexing, but Enceladus so far as I know is the only extraterrestrial place we have direct evidence to indicate them.

The slightest RNA type molecule in any spot on a body of water, and evolution is on its way.  And there are so MANY places that can have liquid water that the numbers are staggering.  And who says it needs water...?
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on July 17, 2018, 06:11:53 AM
Nobody is saying you can't have life unless liquid water is present, just that everywhere we've studied we've found that liquid water has life in it.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Baruch on July 17, 2018, 07:29:34 PM
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Nobody is saying you can't have life unless liquid water is present, just that everywhere we've studied we've found that liquid water has life in it.

Covalent bonds are very useful.  Crystalline life forms like what Lohr assisted, are too rigid to count as life itself, more like a virus that uses other life forms.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Cavebear on July 21, 2018, 07:18:59 AM
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Nobody is saying you can't have life unless liquid water is present, just that everywhere we've studied we've found that liquid water has life in it.

Well, I generally agree of course.  Water-based life makes a lot of sense as it has a lot of advantages.  But there are some other possilbilities.  One is here.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry

I don't pretend to understand the details, but I can slightly see some connections in a few other systems.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on July 21, 2018, 07:23:15 AM
I don't get the "but". I wasn't preaching water exclusivity.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Cavebear on July 21, 2018, 07:49:45 AM
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I don't get the "but". I wasn't preaching water exclusivity.

We are all water oriented.  The "but" was just about thinking of other possibilities that feel odd "but" are possible in ways we have not thought enough about yet.

I am equally torn between water-based that I understand an know is possible and possible biochemistry we have not understood yet.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Baruch on July 21, 2018, 10:28:48 AM
Both of you are "all wet" ;-)
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Cavebear on July 21, 2018, 12:21:59 PM
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Both of you are "all wet" ;-)

Ah, grasshopper, not all that is liquid is "wet" in the way you think...
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Baruch on July 21, 2018, 02:42:11 PM
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Ah, grasshopper, not all that is liquid is "wet" in the way you think...

Polywater?  Only when your parrot takes a piss.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: trdsf on July 21, 2018, 10:03:27 PM
Carl Sagan declared himself a carbon and water chauvinist in Cosmos, and his reasoning is... well, reasonable.  There aren't any known plausible molecules that chain like carbon compounds, or that exist in water analogues like liquid methane, and there aren't any comparable liquids to water that are liquid over a similar temperature range.  Colder liquids will slow the process of evolution and even once that gets started implies slow metabolisms.  Hotter liquids will retard the rise of life because it will tend to break up the long molecules that life appears to need in order to pass along genetic information.

Of course, he didn't go so far as to declare it impossible, but I tend to agree that carbon based life is more likely than other forms and water-based is more likely than other solvents, and that when we get to the point of sampling other worlds, I think we'll find that to be the case.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Baruch on July 21, 2018, 10:38:30 PM
Since materialists can't separate living from non-living, it goes without even a thought, that lots of things are living, we just don't recognize it.  Or is it that lots of people are non-living, and are in denial?
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on July 22, 2018, 06:09:12 AM
Water has been called "the universal solvent". Handy feature to have.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Unbeliever on July 22, 2018, 05:52:47 PM
What a coincidence that hydrogen, helium, carbon and oxygen are the four most abundant elements in the interstellar medium! Fancy that!
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Baruch on July 22, 2018, 06:04:56 PM
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What a coincidence that hydrogen, helium, carbon and oxygen are the four most abundant elements in the interstellar medium! Fancy that!

Yes, the more prevalent life form in the universe are sentient water balloons that speak in a high pitched voice ;-))
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Cavebear on July 25, 2018, 11:30:32 AM
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Polywater?  Only when your parrot takes a piss.

Put a potato chip in pure alcohol and it doesn't get "wet" (I think).  Might be liquid CO2.  Or both.  I forget.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: trdsf on July 25, 2018, 01:22:44 PM
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Put a potato chip in pure alcohol and it doesn't get "wet" (I think).  Might be liquid CO2.  Or both.  I forget.
Methanol or ethanol?  I think you're right about CO2
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Cavebear on July 25, 2018, 03:15:58 PM
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Methanol or ethanol?  I think you're right about CO2

Which-Ever (LOL!)  The point was that not everything has to revolve around water.  Silicon with ammonia and ethane or methane has chemical possibilities.  Also, there are possibilities for silicon or geranium.  Farter along (literally, there is sulphur involved), there are silicon oxides which has some flexible connections to hydrogen.  Call it "bad water" but if that's all you have, it might works.  And that's as far as I can push my college chemistry.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: trdsf on July 25, 2018, 11:23:30 PM
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Which-Ever (LOL!)  The point was that not everything has to revolve around water.  Silicon with ammonia and ethane or methane has chemical possibilities.  Also, there are possibilities for silicon or geranium.  Farter along (literally, there is sulphur involved), there are silicon oxides which has some flexible connections to hydrogen.  Call it "bad water" but if that's all you have, it might works.  And that's as far as I can push my college chemistry.
I think silicon is unlikely as an analogue for carbon -- it doesn't chain in quite the same way.  However, carbon chains in ammonia, ethane, methane, or any other clement liquid remain a perfectly reasonable option.  Carbon really is an element like no other; that's why we have organic chemistry based on carbon, but no analogous chemistry for silicon.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Baruch on July 26, 2018, 12:20:47 AM
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I think silicon is unlikely as an analogue for carbon -- it doesn't chain in quite the same way.  However, carbon chains in ammonia, ethane, methane, or any other clement liquid remain a perfectly reasonable option.  Carbon really is an element like no other; that's why we have organic chemistry based on carbon, but no analogous chemistry for silicon.

Silicon and carbon can have 4 bonds ... but the carbon bonds lie flat, but the silicon bonds are at odd angles.  DNA works because of the flatness of the components of the helix.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Cavebear on August 01, 2018, 03:38:46 AM
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Silicon and carbon can have 4 bonds ... but the carbon bonds lie flat, but the silicon bonds are at odd angles.  DNA works because of the flatness of the components of the helix.

When you talk serious like that, you are great!  Stick to it.  So the carbon bonds lay flat for us.  Could a non-flat silicon 3-helix silicon structure replicate?
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Baruch on August 01, 2018, 08:17:06 PM
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When you talk serious like that, you are great!  Stick to it.  So the carbon bonds lay flat for us.  Could a non-flat silicon 3-helix silicon structure replicate?

Because of the twist that a silicon DNA would have, it would only replicate short segments.  Otherwise nearby atoms get in the way (overlap of orbitals).  I actually studied the possibility of non-carbon replication ... when I was 19.  Don't know about a 3-helix, only studied the usual two-strand.  Certainly a third strand might add quite a wild card to the poker game.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: trdsf on August 02, 2018, 01:42:34 PM
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When you talk serious like that, you are great!  Stick to it.  So the carbon bonds lay flat for us.  Could a non-flat silicon 3-helix silicon structure replicate?
In principle, maybe?  It would require a very odd planetary chemistry, though.  Using the principle of mediocrity, let's take the elemental abundances in our own stellar system as being representative:

ElementMass fraction
(ppm)
Atom fraction
(ppm)
Hydrogen705,723909,979
Helium275,23588,729
Oxygen9,592477
Carbon3,069330
Neon1,756112
Nitrogen1,105102
Silicon71033

Assuming this is typical of a planetary system around a third-generation star, it's pretty clear that there's going to be a lot more carbon to work with than silicon, even though both are essentially trace elements compared to hydrogen and helium (99.87% of all atoms in our solar system being one of these two).  Silicon is also likely to be tied up in very stable rocks, from which it's not easy to liberate, unlike carbon, which has multiple sources, not all of which are tightly bound.

So biological silicon is likely to be special purpose, as in diatom shells (seashells are calcium carbonate, not any form of silicate) or as a trace mineral.  It would take a very different sort of local elemental makeup for silicon to do more than that in a biosystem.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 02, 2018, 07:41:00 PM
Do we have recordings of Satan's voice?
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Unbeliever on August 02, 2018, 07:53:26 PM
Yeah, he just held a rally in Floriduh.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on August 03, 2018, 07:35:09 AM
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Yeah, he just held a rally in Floriduh.
Explains the "Floridaman" phenomenon nicely.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Cavebear on August 04, 2018, 03:26:44 AM
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In principle, maybe?  It would require a very odd planetary chemistry, though.  Using the principle of mediocrity, let's take the elemental abundances in our own stellar system as being representative:

ElementMass fraction
(ppm)
Atom fraction
(ppm)
Hydrogen705,723909,979
Helium275,23588,729
Oxygen9,592477
Carbon3,069330
Neon1,756112
Nitrogen1,105102
Silicon71033

Assuming this is typical of a planetary system around a third-generation star, it's pretty clear that there's going to be a lot more carbon to work with than silicon, even though both are essentially trace elements compared to hydrogen and helium (99.87% of all atoms in our solar system being one of these two).  Silicon is also likely to be tied up in very stable rocks, from which it's not easy to liberate, unlike carbon, which has multiple sources, not all of which are tightly bound.

So biological silicon is likely to be special purpose, as in diatom shells (seashells are calcium carbonate, not any form of silicate) or as a trace mineral.  It would take a very different sort of local elemental makeup for silicon to do more than that in a biosystem.

Well perhaps there are planets here conditions are different and other elements are more adherent to others than on Earth.  I'm not proposing that, just keeping my thoughts open. 

I'm still expecting that, if we ever find life elsewhere, it will be similar to what we know.  But, you never know...
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Blackleaf on August 04, 2018, 10:08:19 AM
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Well perhaps there are planets here conditions are different and other elements are more adherent to others than on Earth.  I'm not proposing that, just keeping my thoughts open. 

I'm still expecting that, if we ever find life elsewhere, it will be similar to what we know.  But, you never know...

Well, even here on Earth, we have evidence of convergent evolution. That is, multiple species in similar environments independently developing similar traits. It's especially apparent after a mass extinction leaves most of Earth's species extinct. At that point, new species come and fill the void. It seems there are certain niches in nature, and when a niche is unclaimed, nature quickly finds a new species to fill it. I expect if we ever discover alien life, it'll follow the same rules and they'll be both similar and different.

What would be really interesting, though, would be to see if any species like humans ever independently evolved. We're the only ones like us on Earth that have ever existed, so we may just be a cosmic fluke.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Cavebear on August 04, 2018, 10:28:13 AM
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Well, even here on Earth, we have evidence of convergent evolution. That is, multiple species in similar environments independently developing similar traits. It's especially apparent after a mass extinction leaves most of Earth's species extinct. At that point, new species come and fill the void. It seems there are certain niches in nature, and when a niche is unclaimed, nature quickly finds a new species to fill it. I expect if we ever discover alien life, it'll follow the same rules and they'll be both similar and different.

What would be really interesting, though, would be to see if any species like humans ever independently evolved. We're the only ones like us on Earth that have ever existed, so we may just be a cosmic fluke.

Nature abhors a vacant niche.  A pair of parrots night become an ostritch... Well, a falcon.  Yes, actually, a falcon...  Parrots and falcons are on the same bird branch.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Baruch on August 04, 2018, 01:07:34 PM
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Well, even here on Earth, we have evidence of convergent evolution. That is, multiple species in similar environments independently developing similar traits. It's especially apparent after a mass extinction leaves most of Earth's species extinct. At that point, new species come and fill the void. It seems there are certain niches in nature, and when a niche is unclaimed, nature quickly finds a new species to fill it. I expect if we ever discover alien life, it'll follow the same rules and they'll be both similar and different.

What would be really interesting, though, would be to see if any species like humans ever independently evolved. We're the only ones like us on Earth that have ever existed, so we may just be a cosmic fluke.

Old scifi ... humans evolved before, but self destructed.  We are Human 2.0.  New scifi ... dinosaurs evolved and escaped into space 65 million years ago.
Title: Re: The sounds of Saturn
Post by: Baruch on August 04, 2018, 01:08:10 PM
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Nature abhors a vacant niche.  A pair of parrots night become an ostritch... Well, a falcon.  Yes, actually, a falcon...  Parrots and falcons are on the same bird branch.

And the parrots have to eye the falcons distrustfully ;-)