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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Topic started by: PickelledEggs on July 10, 2018, 11:40:50 PM

Title: Christian wins a debate
Post by: PickelledEggs on July 10, 2018, 11:40:50 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJQjpG-lGY4

It's not much of a victory, he's debating Bill Maher, lol.

But even if he was debating someone else, given the topic at hand, I would say this guy might stand his ground. He brings a lot of good points, imo.
Title: Re: Christian wins a debate
Post by: Baruch on July 11, 2018, 12:28:26 AM
Well, still stereotype against stereotype.  Plato against Homer (aka intellectual vs tradition).  Yes, the Christian didn't do a bad job.  Maher just was himself.

Maher was quoting Voltaire .. who was a ferocious anti-Semite (he invented modern anti-Semitism, and part of the Enlightenment that people here love so much, while hiding out in a chateau being a soy-boy).  Voltaire and Rousseau are nothing to hang your hat on, they destroyed France, and ushered in Robespierre.  Like Marx and Engels ushered in Lenin (though there intent was to destroy Germany, but the Nazis stopped that shit).  To misquote Einstein ... "common sense is all the bullshit you learn by the time you are 20, that you spend the rest of your life unlearning".

As I have pointed out regarding Darwinian naturalism, there was nothing wrong that Bin Ladin did ... you are supposed to identify your enemies and kill them.  He should be celebrated, not vilified ... as should Hitler and every other genocidal killer.  Naturalism moostly means to get more girl fuck time to perpetuate your genes.  And Bin Ladin did, though he was crazy to think that the US was interfering in any way with his harem.  But crazy jealous lovers are like that.  Norman Mailer hypothesized that Oswald killed Kennedy, because his Russian wife had the hots for Kennedy.
Title: Re: Christian wins a debate
Post by: Hydra009 on July 11, 2018, 12:53:20 AM
He lost me in the first minute with his claim that "Americans are still as religious as ever" and "people are still as likely to say they believe in god"

(https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/atbudnjfoum5r1qfj_dhdq.png)
Source:  https://news.gallup.com/poll/193271/americans-believe-god.aspx

2007: Do not believe in god 5%
2014: Do not believe in god 9%
Source:  http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/belief-in-god/

There's a lot of other polls with similar declines and growth of the "nones", especially among younger generations.  While belief in God is still very high (especially compared to other industrialized western countries), it's definitely on the decline.

So this guy is factually wrong right out of the gate.
Title: Re: Christian wins a debate
Post by: GSOgymrat on July 11, 2018, 01:28:31 AM
Douthat lost me a couple of times. One was when he presented a dualistic view of human nature: People are inherently "pretty much okay" or "shitty to each other." That is a very Christian way to look at the human experience and one I don't share. The other was when he makes a good point about why people have believed in gods but then says "God intervenes and sort of reveals himself and that's why we have progress in religion," which I don't buy at all. Maher just seems to be reciting his typical atheist arguments. It's hard to have a nuanced discussion of religion in 8 minutes.
Title: Re: Christian wins a debate
Post by: Baruch on July 11, 2018, 01:32:41 AM
I think Douthat was saying ... on the one hand ... on the other hand.  I think he only accepted the "we are shitty" as his own position, one that I share.  But I also disagree that human progress has happened, in religion or anything else.  We reinvent the wheel every generation.
Title: Re: Christian wins a debate
Post by: PickelledEggs on July 11, 2018, 10:00:46 AM
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He lost me in the first minute with his claim that "Americans are still as religious as ever" and "people are still as likely to say they believe in god"

(https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/atbudnjfoum5r1qfj_dhdq.png)
Source:  https://news.gallup.com/poll/193271/americans-believe-god.aspx

2007: Do not believe in god 5%
2014: Do not believe in god 9%
Source:  http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/belief-in-god/

There's a lot of other polls with similar declines and growth of the "nones", especially among younger generations.  While belief in God is still very high (especially compared to other industrialized western countries), it's definitely on the decline.

So this guy is factually wrong right out of the gate.
IMO that wasn't the main point of the conversation
Title: Re: Christian wins a debate
Post by: Hydra009 on July 11, 2018, 12:02:43 PM
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IMO that wasn't the main point of the conversation
True, but it was the opener.  I often use that to gauge the intelligence/honesty of the debater.  And per the usual with religious apologists, this one makes a poor first impression.
Title: Re: Christian wins a debate
Post by: GSOgymrat on July 11, 2018, 01:24:17 PM
Dogs are not intrinsically good or bad, chimpanzees are not intrinsically good or bad and neither are humans. Consequences are good or bad and then that assessment is dependent on "for whom." This is a critical perspective where Christians and I diverge. Christians believe humans are exceptional, that they are more than mammals because they have souls, an element of their being that is supernatural. Christians like Douthat also believe humans are intrinsically "shitty" and can only be truly good through Christ. I think humans are intrinsically many things, such as meaning makers or subject to aging and death, but I don't think they are intrinsically good or bad. Because I don't view humanity through the lens of good or bad, or that humans have supernatural souls, I don't believe in cosmic justice. Because I don't believe in cosmic justice, the sacrifice of Jesus and his forgiveness don't resonate with me because from my perspective there is nothing to be forgiven for.
Title: Re: Christian wins a debate
Post by: PickelledEggs on July 11, 2018, 03:42:24 PM
Yes, I am aware that the facts are that religion and believers are on the decline in numbers, but that doesn't mean he lost the debate.
Many entirely factual stances lose debates because they aren't posed correctly.
I'd also say, given the fact that Maher, as he usually does, immediately and consistently kept moving the goal post to something else and in a way to demonize people of faith with loaded questions, he handled it very well and made sure to keep it as much on topic as possible.... and also civilly.

For those reasons, even though he might not have been factual, he won. He conversed his position the most proper way, even if he was incorrect with his facts.

He didn't stoop to fallacious means, where Maher, almost entirely did
Title: Re: Christian wins a debate
Post by: PickelledEggs on July 11, 2018, 03:46:26 PM
The fact that people don't understand that just being factual isn't how you win a debate is a huge reason why reason doesn't always win in a debate. You need to also focus on communicating clearly and on topic, with also respect and civility.
Title: Re: Christian wins a debate
Post by: GSOgymrat on July 11, 2018, 04:20:07 PM
I thought Douthat came of as congenial and interesting. It made me want to check out his book, which was the purpose of the interview.
Title: Re: Christian wins a debate
Post by: Baruch on July 11, 2018, 07:29:30 PM
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Dogs are not intrinsically good or bad, chimpanzees are not intrinsically good or bad and neither are humans. Consequences are good or bad and then that assessment is dependent on "for whom." This is a critical perspective where Christians and I diverge. Christians believe humans are exceptional, that they are more than mammals because they have souls, an element of their being that is supernatural. Christians like Douthat also believe humans are intrinsically "shitty" and can only be truly good through Christ. I think humans are intrinsically many things, such as meaning makers or subject to aging and death, but I don't think they are intrinsically good or bad. Because I don't view humanity through the lens of good or bad, or that humans have supernatural souls, I don't believe in cosmic justice. Because I don't believe in cosmic justice, the sacrifice of Jesus and his forgiveness don't resonate with me because from my perspective there is nothing to be forgiven for.

Hitler isn't bad, just his policies ;-)
Title: Re: Christian wins a debate
Post by: Cavebear on July 13, 2018, 04:59:15 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJQjpG-lGY4

It's not much of a victory, he's debating Bill Maher, lol.

But even if he was debating someone else, given the topic at hand, I would say this guy might stand his ground. He brings a lot of good points, imo.

I thought Bill Maher made the better points in that debate.  His opponent (forget the name) mainly argued what was said in the bible, was from a deity.  But which Maher suggested was always just the rules sensible people agreed about to form a civil society before the bible was written or conceived.  Yeah, sure, I KNOW, most of the biblical laws were just what sensible people had already agreed worked for their communitities, and later put into their religions.