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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Topic started by: Blackleaf on June 30, 2018, 12:01:12 PM

Title: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Blackleaf on June 30, 2018, 12:01:12 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tcquI2ylNM

Theists: "Subjective morality based on feelings doesn't feel right to me, so I reject the notion that feelings are a basis for morality based on my feelings."

"Atheists can't have a basis for objective morality because their ideas of right and wrong vary from person to person. I mean, theists disagree on matters of morality all the time, but people who disagree with my personal religious beliefs don't count."
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Baruch on June 30, 2018, 12:22:42 PM
True.  The claim by either side that morality is objective ... including natural or evolutionary law ... is specious.  As a predatory species, predation is moral (even if we don't like it much).
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Sal1981 on June 30, 2018, 03:45:41 PM
I think morality is ultimately subjective, but that doesn't mean we're unable to guide through life with such a subjective outlook. It just means that moral decisions and actions are down to the individual.
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Baruch on June 30, 2018, 05:28:28 PM
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I think morality is ultimately subjective, but that doesn't mean we're unable to guide through life with such a subjective outlook. It just means that moral decisions and actions are down to the individual.

We can choose when, where, how ... we predate, and against who and why.
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Munch on June 30, 2018, 08:00:20 PM
Sometimes I wonder where the correlation is between intellect and morality. I've often looked at empathy as a developed mental state that works on its own degree of development in the same way the capacity for knowledge does, infact its been identified within the brain as the anterior insular cortex, so its possible this area can be more or less developed in each person, maybe even it being less developed in some who have higher developed parts.

As such I think empathy can play a strong role in approach to morality, though its possible it could work against it too, what feels right to what is morally right.

I do think though that morality comes from some more then others on the basis of this kind of development.
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: aitm on July 01, 2018, 12:31:05 PM
As we see more and more evidence that animals that are naturally predator/prey can and are cohabiting with varying degrees of actual "friendship" it suggests that perhaps the idea of what is hereditary and what is learned needs to be re-evaluated. If by not teaching a lion cub to kill means it can walk and play among the antelope without any intention of killing it suggests that learned behavior is far more the driving force on personality.

Being raised to be brutal against others would not present moral issues to said individual who sees no "issues" to be "moral" about.
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Baruch on July 01, 2018, 12:51:01 PM
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As we see more and more evidence that animals that are naturally predator/prey can and are cohabiting with varying degrees of actual "friendship" it suggests that perhaps the idea of what is hereditary and what is learned needs to be re-evaluated. If by not teaching a lion cub to kill means it can walk and play among the antelope without any intention of killing it suggests that learned behavior is far more the driving force on personality.

Being raised to be brutal against others would not present moral issues to said individual who sees no "issues" to be "moral" about.

Not all animals can be tamed.  Sheep can, lions cannot.  It remains to be seen, in the experiment we call human culture, if humans can be tamed.  So far the answer is no (it is a genetic thing in the animals, why not in humans too?).
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Cavebear on July 02, 2018, 01:18:45 AM
As I understand it, "morality" is following religious commandments.  I prefer "ethics", which are human in origin and reflect what is required for people to get along in large groups.  And I will say that most religious books are merely reflections of what human society requires to survive, rather than what some deity-oriented rules demand.

The religious rules that make sense to most people are the ones that actually apply to people.  Don't Murder, Don't Steal, Honor the Elders.  The ones that make no particular sense are the most religious ones. 

Honor a one day of the week (why)?  Do not blaspheme (why the god-damn Jesus, Mohhamed, Erhu, Odin, hell not?)  No gods before me (would a deity be THAT insecure)?  Make no graven image (right, no Mona Lisa, no David, no Botticelli 'The Birth Of Venus' in our world).

I pay no attention to any theisitic rules...  They are all unsensible and anti-human.
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Baruch on July 02, 2018, 12:53:15 PM
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As I understand it, "morality" is following religious commandments.  I prefer "ethics", which are human in origin and reflect what is required for people to get along in large groups.  And I will say that most religious books are merely reflections of what human society requires to survive, rather than what some deity-oriented rules demand.

The religious rules that make sense to most people are the ones that actually apply to people.  Don't Murder, Don't Steal, Honor the Elders.  The ones that make no particular sense are the most religious ones. 

Honor a one day of the week (why)?  Do not blaspheme (why the god-damn Jesus, Mohhamed, Erhu, Odin, hell not?)  No gods before me (would a deity be THAT insecure)?  Make no graven image (right, no Mona Lisa, no David, no Botticelli 'The Birth Of Venus' in our world).

I pay no attention to any theisitic rules...  They are all unsensible and anti-human.

Yes, ethics is the secular term, morality is the religious one.  But I will take ethics in a pinch.  Though sometimes people restrict this to "professional ethics" ... but I think that is too narrow.  Ethics applies to everyone, even if morality does not.
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 07:09:34 AM
I don't think any kind of morality is subjective. I think it's all objective. Some people get the answers right more than others... and theists on the whole tend to get the answers right less often . . . due to basing their answers on an imaginary entity.
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Baruch on September 27, 2018, 12:42:51 PM
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I don't think any kind of morality is subjective. I think it's all objective. Some people get the answers right more than others... and theists on the whole tend to get the answers right less often . . . due to basing their answers on an imaginary entity.

OK per Pythagoras or Thales ... derive ethics from math or physics.
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: luckswallowsall on September 27, 2018, 05:00:07 PM
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OK per Pythagoras or Thales ... derive ethics from math or physics.

That would be silly. Math and physics are both bootstrapped from logic... why shouldn't ethics be?
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: SoldierofFortune on September 27, 2018, 06:27:02 PM
etik orders the being interconnekted of the people. it is about social order.
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Baruch on September 27, 2018, 07:15:08 PM
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That would be silly. Math and physics are both bootstrapped from logic... why shouldn't ethics be?

After you explain Modal Logic to me (I am having trouble there) .. maybe we can talk about this.  Simple predicate logic won't help ...

All Athenians are aardvarks
Socrates is an Athenian
Therefore ... Socrates is an aardvark.

Perfect logic, but bad first premise, because it violates empirical reality.
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: luckswallowsall on October 04, 2018, 11:25:46 AM
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After you explain Modal Logic to me (I am having trouble there) .. maybe we can talk about this.  Simple predicate logic won't help ...

Modal logic refers to what is possible in other universes. You were the one who brought it up first, not me.


Quote
All Athenians are aardvarks
Socrates is an Athenian
Therefore ... Socrates is an aardvark.

Perfect logic, but bad first premise, because it violates empirical reality.

True and irrelevant to my points.
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2018, 12:39:25 PM
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Modal logic refers to what is possible in other universes. You were the one who brought it up first, not me.


True and irrelevant to my points.

Not exactly ie Modal Logic.  But you don't have to take up my original suggestion, in that context.  We aren't a slave web site, yet.
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Cavebear on October 04, 2018, 02:43:19 PM
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After you explain Modal Logic to me (I am having trouble there) .. maybe we can talk about this.  Simple predicate logic won't help ...

All Athenians are aardvarks
Socrates is an Athenian
Therefore ... Socrates is an aardvark.

Perfect logic, but bad first premise, because it violates empirical reality.

Forgive me for this...

How do you know he wasn't an aardvark?  Were you there?
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Baruch on October 05, 2018, 12:23:55 PM
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Forgive me for this...

How do you know he wasn't an aardvark?  Were you there?

Good point.  If anyone claims to know anything, you know it is BS.  Then the correctness of the syllogism doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 06:07:58 AM
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Good point.  If anyone claims to know anything, you know it is BS.  Then the correctness of the syllogism doesn't matter.

No, that's the opposite of my point.  There is evidence to "know" some things.  Science depends on evidence, faith does not.
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 01:27:22 PM
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No, that's the opposite of my point.  There is evidence to "know" some things.  Science depends on evidence, faith does not.

To know something scientifically, is conditional to the theory being used, and the skillfulness of instrumental use.  In common parlance, "to know" means many things ... even "to know a woman".

Because I seem to know you well, I have "trust" that you are telling the truth, when you describe your government service.  In that case I have "faith" in you (that you are trustworthy).
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 02:44:22 PM
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To know something scientifically, is conditional to the theory being used, and the skillfulness of instrumental use.  In common parlance, "to know" means many things ... even "to know a woman".

Because I seem to know you well, I have "trust" that you are telling the truth, when you describe your government service.  In that case I have "faith" in you (that you are trustworthy).

This day of Kavanaugh is a bad one to use "know".  In any sense...  Lets give those puns a sad rest...
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 02:46:32 PM
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This day of Kavanaugh is a bad one to use "know".  In any sense...  Lets give those puns a sad rest...

Only men misbehave?  I was thinking of Adam and Eve actually.  Eve started it first!
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Cavebear on October 07, 2018, 03:31:15 PM
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Only men misbehave?  I was thinking of Adam and Eve actually.  Eve started it first!

I was referring to "know" a woman as a euphemism.  Will you drop this?
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Baruch on October 07, 2018, 07:41:34 PM
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I was referring to "know" a woman as a euphemism.  Will you drop this?

So was I.  Are you doing OK tonight?
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Cavebear on October 10, 2018, 04:04:19 AM
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So was I.  Are you doing OK tonight?

No actually.  The computer is giving me fits failing to send comments to blogs I try to visit.  8 of 10 comments I tried to post failed to get through.  I am a more than a BIT annoyed. 
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Baruch on October 10, 2018, 05:18:00 AM
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No actually.  The computer is giving me fits failing to send comments to blogs I try to visit.  8 of 10 comments I tried to post failed to get through.  I am a more than a BIT annoyed.

OK.  But I meant you, not your computer.  Not now, but 3 days ago.
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Cavebear on October 10, 2018, 01:50:47 PM
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OK.  But I meant you, not your computer.  Not now, but 3 days ago.

I am my computer.  WYSIWYG
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Baruch on October 10, 2018, 08:29:51 PM
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I am my computer.  WYSIWYG

Bear-ly Bot.
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Cavebear on October 14, 2018, 09:38:59 AM
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Bear-ly Bot.

Get beyond the jokes...
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Baruch on October 14, 2018, 09:48:36 AM
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Get beyond the jokes...

Life is a joke.  Beyond life is ... death.  Want to be dead already?
Title: Re: Theist Morality is Subjective
Post by: Simon Moon on October 17, 2018, 11:30:38 AM
Matt Dillahunty gives a talk on a secular morality that has an objective basis, that being, the objective facts about reality.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjbdWGre370 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjbdWGre370)