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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Christianity => Topic started by: SGOS on June 26, 2018, 08:04:59 AM

Title: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SGOS on June 26, 2018, 08:04:59 AM
In the summer of 1964 I was standing at 11,000+ feet on Montana's Beartooth Plateau with my friend, Tom.  We were on our way to the top of the highest peak in the State, and having a short discussion about God.  Tom was a  Catholic, but thought the whole religion thing was nonsense.  I was on the fence, and grappling with absurdities and contradictions of Biblical claims.  We were actually discussing the likelihood of the existence of God.

Tom said, "If God would send you to Hell and torture you for eternity because you <insert a sin here.  I can't remember what sin he used>, then God is Fucked."

I remember cringing at the vulgar blasphemy.  It may have been a duck, rather than a cringe, as I unexpectedly anticipated a lightning bolt to strike us on the elevated and exposed plateau.  But nothing happened, and Tom's attempt at logic did not convince me of anything, because maybe God did exist, and maybe he was that fucked.  In spite of the various descriptions of the goodness of God, usually offered by men in the know, the Bible described a being that would certainly qualify as fucked, a being that a normal person would never seek out as a friend unless he was a masochist.

Just something I will always remember, along with the startling reflex cringe I experienced in anticipation of immediate punishment.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SoldierofFortune on June 26, 2018, 09:10:30 AM
Your emotional reaction to the blashemy was real. You really felt you would be punished and this displays that you were a frank believer-Once upon a time- when it comes to me, i never felt in this way but somestimes i prayed to be awarded for my prayers. I was muslim and whenever i wish something come into existence in my life, i used to go to mosque. But i think i was selfish. I didnt use to go regularly, just whenever i need and want something.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: GSOgymrat on June 26, 2018, 10:00:27 AM
 
Quote from: SGOS on June 26, 2018, 08:04:59 AM


Just something I will always remember, along with the startling reflex cringe I experienced in anticipation of immediate punishment.

I can get similar anxiety when someone defies misfortune. "I'll be fine. What could possibly go wrong?"
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Blackleaf on June 26, 2018, 10:22:28 AM
When Jesus comes a-knockin', you'd better open that door. Otherwise he'll knock that door down and drag you into a pit of eternal pain, the likes of which you can't even imagine and can't hope to ever escape. Because he loves you.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 26, 2018, 10:34:47 AM
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 26, 2018, 10:22:28 AM
When Jesus comes a-knockin', you'd better open that door. Otherwise he'll knock that door down and drag you into a pit of eternal pain, the likes of which you can't even imagine and can't hope to ever escape. Because he loves you.

Juri: It's these two ... Grace Jones-lookin' chicks. Should I let them in?
N'Jobu: They won't knock again.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: trdsf on June 26, 2018, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on June 26, 2018, 10:00:27 AM
I can get similar anxiety when someone defies misfortune. "I'll be fine. What could possibly go wrong?"
That's a really common one.  I still struggle with it; my bike seat always gets two pats after I mount it on the rack on front of the bus and I tell myself that it's just to make sure it's seated properly in the mount but I know better, it's to make *me* feel more secure.

My first good lesson in not worrying about it was in college when I was still nominally Christian (drifting towards Deism) when, during a thunderstorm, one of my frat brothers climbed out on the roof of the frat house and with a beer in one hand and a bong in the other, sat there in the downpour yelling "I DARE YOU!!"
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on June 26, 2018, 12:57:04 PM
Even inanimate nature shouldn't be defied, if you understand Murphy's Law.  Having been an engineer and a programmer, I can verify to y'all that the Irish are the chosen people, and Murphy is the one true god.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Unbeliever on June 26, 2018, 01:16:51 PM
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on June 26, 2018, 09:10:30 AM
I was muslim and whenever i wish something come into existence in my life, i used to go to mosque. But i think i was selfish. I didnt use to go regularly, just whenever i need and want something.
So, basically a "fair-weather theist"? I've known many of those, who really only think about God when they need or desire something they either won't or cant work to get for themselves. They treat God as a cosmic bell-boy who brings them stuff when they ring room service. But, as Harry Emerson Fosdick said, "God is not a cosmic bellboy for whom we can press a button to get things."
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Hydra009 on June 26, 2018, 07:24:33 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on June 26, 2018, 10:00:27 AM

I can get similar anxiety when someone defies misfortune. "I'll be fine. What could possibly go wrong?"
I do this intentionally all the time.  Most of my co-workers are superstitious and think that me saying things like that will somehow bring about misfortune but they're hazy on how.  The truth of course is that me moving air around with my throat is unrelated to any misfortune.  There's no causal connection.

So pet all the black cats you want and refuse to live your life by the dictates of fools.  It's the only way to advance as a society.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: aitm on June 26, 2018, 07:34:17 PM
We often pretend to think that those first 14 ish years of mental manipulation by our parents and culture can easily be erased with time.  I have no issues talking to my truck as I hear a strange noise. Now typically considered bad luck things such as ladders and cats et al, I tend to intentionally break for the fuck of it.  We all have ways of dealing with various degrees of "stress" or mis-fortune.....it's when we starting bragging about on it that it gets a bit silly.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on June 26, 2018, 07:58:49 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 26, 2018, 01:16:51 PM
So, basically a "fair-weather theist"? I've known many of those, who really only think about God when they need or desire something they either won't or cant work to get for themselves. They treat God as a cosmic bell-boy who brings them stuff when they ring room service. But, as Harry Emerson Fosdick said, "God is not a cosmic bellboy for whom we can press a button to get things."

Allah promises Muslims ... success in this life, and 72 perpetual virgin orgy in the hereafter.  Not exactly humanitarian.  Kind of like capitalism with extras.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on June 26, 2018, 07:59:52 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on June 26, 2018, 07:24:33 PM
I do this intentionally all the time.  Most of my co-workers are superstitious and think that me saying things like that will somehow bring about misfortune but they're hazy on how.  The truth of course is that me moving air around with my throat is unrelated to any misfortune.  There's no causal connection.

So pet all the black cats you want and refuse to live your life by the dictates of fools.  It's the only way to advance as a society.

My oldest cat is black, and has already gone thru three lives ... pretty lucky.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SGOS on June 26, 2018, 08:17:40 PM
Quote from: aitm on June 26, 2018, 07:34:17 PM
We often pretend to think that those first 14 ish years of mental manipulation by our parents and culture can easily be erased with time.  I have no issues talking to my truck as I hear a strange noise. Now typically considered bad luck things such as ladders and cats et al, I tend to intentionally break for the fuck of it.  We all have ways of dealing with various degrees of "stress" or mis-fortune.....it's when we starting bragging about on it that it gets a bit silly.
I know how instilled those early teachings can be.  Long after I realized I did not intellectually believe, and had no logical reasons to do so, I still had fears of Hell.  I likened that stage of my development to having emptied the trash, but for years after, I still had maggots and rotting matter clinging to the insides of the can.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on June 26, 2018, 08:26:54 PM
You are dissing an important part of the ecology, you intolerant ape!
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SGOS on June 26, 2018, 09:16:13 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 26, 2018, 01:16:51 PM
So, basically a "fair-weather theist"? I've known many of those, who really only think about God when they need or desire something they either won't or cant work to get for themselves. They treat God as a cosmic bell-boy who brings them stuff when they ring room service. But, as Harry Emerson Fosdick said, "God is not a cosmic bellboy for whom we can press a button to get things."
John Oliver addresses this one: Televangelists asking you to send money, and God will repay you tenfold, and in actual dollars, not some bullshit like happiness or bliss, but in actual dollars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on June 26, 2018, 11:09:26 PM
Yes, give all your money to the government or the nearest consumer shit producer.  If you hate money, just give it away.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Unbeliever on June 27, 2018, 01:42:59 PM
Quote from: SGOS on June 26, 2018, 09:16:13 PM
John Oliver addresses this one: Televangelists asking you to send money, and God will repay you tenfold, and in actual dollars, not some bullshit like happiness or bliss, but in actual dollars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg


Yeah, I love that! He even started his own church! ;-D
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Hydra009 on June 27, 2018, 10:18:21 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 27, 2018, 01:42:59 PM

Yeah, I love that! He even started his own church! ;-D
It wasn't a church, it was a scam.  Totally different.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Cavebear on June 28, 2018, 04:27:27 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on June 27, 2018, 10:18:21 PM
It wasn't a church, it was a scam.  Totally different.

It was a joke...  Not a scam.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Unbeliever on June 28, 2018, 01:47:17 PM
Well, it was certainly tongue-in-cheek.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on June 28, 2018, 06:14:26 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 28, 2018, 01:47:17 PM
Well, it was certainly tongue-in-cheek.

That could be very gay ...
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Unbeliever on June 28, 2018, 06:28:37 PM
I guess it depends on which cheek the tongue is in?
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on June 28, 2018, 06:32:34 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 28, 2018, 06:28:37 PM
I guess it depends on which cheek the tongue is in?

Right or Left?  Let the political pundits debate that!
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Cavebear on June 28, 2018, 08:58:38 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 28, 2018, 06:28:37 PM
I guess it depends on which cheek the tongue is in?
Yep, there certainly is a Right cheek and a Left one.  One never knows, do one?
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: justme on July 01, 2018, 04:41:36 PM
"It wasn't a church, it was a scam.  Totally different.'

  I don't see the difference. 
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on July 01, 2018, 05:59:12 PM
Quote from: justme on July 01, 2018, 04:41:36 PM
"It wasn't a church, it was a scam.  Totally different.'

  I don't see the difference.

In law, intent is important, at least for sentencing.  That and circumstances.  If you knowingly scam someone, you are scamming.  It isn't possible to unknowingly scam someone ... you are simply making a mistake.

The question remains ... to what extent is an organization, religious or not, a scam?  Depends on if they know what they are doing.  These days for instance, it seems that all political action is a scam.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Unbeliever on July 01, 2018, 06:04:13 PM
That's new?
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on July 01, 2018, 06:10:38 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 01, 2018, 06:04:13 PM
That's new?

Clarification for "justme" ... not for you or Cavebear, who are omniscient ;-)
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Unbeliever on July 01, 2018, 06:12:30 PM
And don't you forget it! ;-)
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SGOS on July 01, 2018, 06:35:20 PM
Most churches might be scamming people, but they aren't scamming the IRS, because church bullshit is legally recognized as a tax free endeavor.  The scam was done by John Oliver.  He did scam the government to qualify for benefits the church gets, when clearly he was only posing as a church.

However, I think Hydra's point was to make a satirical comparison/contrast.  To atheists, Oliver's Church and a real Church are both scams of one nature or another even though their true intentions are miles apart.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Cavebear on July 02, 2018, 12:43:45 AM
Quote from: justme on July 01, 2018, 04:41:36 PM
"It wasn't a church, it was a scam.  Totally different.'

  I don't see the difference.

Unless things change, I see the beginnings of a great understanding here...
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on July 02, 2018, 06:45:03 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on July 02, 2018, 12:43:45 AM
Unless things change, I see the beginnings of a great understanding here...

I sometimes play the cynic ... everything is a scam ...

But that is rhetoric, not reality.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Blackleaf on July 05, 2018, 01:12:57 PM
Quote from: SGOS on July 01, 2018, 06:35:20 PM
Most churches might be scamming people, but they aren't scamming the IRS, because church bullshit is legally recognized as a tax free endeavor.  The scam was done by John Oliver.  He did scam the government to qualify for benefits the church gets, when clearly he was only posing as a church.

However, I think Hydra's point was to make a satirical comparison/contrast.  To atheists, Oliver's Church and a real Church are both scams of one nature or another even though their true intentions are miles apart.

The point of John Oliver's "Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption" was to show how ridiculously easy it was to qualify as a "religious institution."
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on July 05, 2018, 02:26:01 PM
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 05, 2018, 01:12:57 PM
The point of John Oliver's "Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption" was to show how ridiculously easy it was to qualify as a "religious institution."

Would't matter if it wasn't a tax deduction ;-)  But on the other hand, the courts are well aware of the intention of Church of the Holy Reefer.  They granted an exception, but only to Native Americans, and only for peyote.  Which to my mind, violated the "establishment" clause.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Hydra009 on July 05, 2018, 03:48:49 PM
Quote from: justme on July 01, 2018, 04:41:36 PM
"It wasn't a church, it was a scam.  Totally different.'

  I don't see the difference.
That's the joke.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Cavebear on July 09, 2018, 04:12:12 AM
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 05, 2018, 01:12:57 PM
The point of John Oliver's "Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption" was to show how ridiculously easy it was to qualify as a "religious institution."

I forget where, but I recall someone referring to a typical Catholic Church as "Our Lady Of Perpetual Misery".  I always found that both accurate and amusing.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SGOS on July 09, 2018, 06:51:28 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on July 09, 2018, 04:12:12 AM
I forget where, but I recall someone referring to a typical Catholic Church as "Our Lady Of Perpetual Misery".  I always found that both accurate and amusing.
A shot in the dark.  Was that from the Blues Brothers?
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Cavebear on July 09, 2018, 07:34:33 AM
Quote from: SGOS on July 09, 2018, 06:51:28 AM
A shot in the dark.  Was that from the Blues Brothers?

Might be.  Or Firesign Theater.  It would work for either.

Oh, I just realized...  It's from the Wild Card series.  One of my favorite series of "very strange books". 
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: trdsf on July 09, 2018, 10:03:28 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on July 09, 2018, 04:12:12 AM
I forget where, but I recall someone referring to a typical Catholic Church as "Our Lady Of Perpetual Misery".  I always found that both accurate and amusing.
I usually go with 'Our Lady of Perpetual Motion'.  :D
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SGOS on July 09, 2018, 12:01:03 PM
The Blues Brothers were raised in an orphanage run by the church of Saint Helen of the Blessed Shroud.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Cavebear on July 09, 2018, 12:57:07 PM
OK. let me try to sweep some of the fog I seem to have created.  I sometimes live in the border between reality and parody where both are often thinly divided.  Reality is crueler than fiction ever can be.

The "Our Lady Of Perpetual Misery" Church is entirely fictional in a sci-fi series called 'Wild Cards'.  But as I consider all religions to be equally fictional, there is little difference to me.  And many christian churches have equally strange names.  https://www.oddee.com/item_97069.aspx (https://www.oddee.com/item_97069.aspx).

To me, all religions are sick representations of human fears of natural death, post hoc ergo propter hoc ("with this, therefore because of this")  fallacies that ascribe human ethics  to a deity when in fact the ethics were discovered prior to the religions, and social control mechanisms.

In short, I consider all religious beliefs are therefore, by definition, lagging behind human development of ethics and science with practitioners leading the religions (parasitic fools at best and scammers at worst) taking advantage of the least sensible of us to the advantage of few.

Can anyone put it more directly that that?

Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Mousetrap on August 24, 2018, 09:43:17 AM
Yeh!
I also thought that one can invoke God to show Him self in order to believe in Him.

I tested it all.
The best one was a game similar than Ouijah board.
I was so sure that it could prove the existence of the spiritual realm, that I investigated the movement of a glass turned upside down, and asking questions to an invoked spirit.

Well, I realized that there had to be one person that was a 'Medium' that could call on a spirit.
If that Medium removed their finger, and only mine was left, no movement!

Conclusion, you can not communicate with the metaphysical, using the physical.
That was when I lost all faith, until, as I always did, I argued with a lot of Christians, like atheists does, very superficially and using straw man arguments. An Elderly man asked me one question, and I knew he had me.
He said, I know you never read the Bible, because you are very ignorant about its contents, but why do you deny God, if you never read what He said?
I remembered telling him that the Bible is full of violence and the God of the Bible sends people to hell for eternity.
Therefore, that God can never be a creator who destroys what he made.

'Oh. but let me assure you,' he said 'The God of the Bible does not condemn you to hell, as for me, I know I have eternal life. As for you, you condemn yourself.'

I only learned later that God never intended people to be condemned, but it is people that condemn them self!

Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Hydra009 on August 24, 2018, 10:12:52 AM
^ Chick tract?
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Unbeliever on August 24, 2018, 01:36:40 PM
Oh, the memories!
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: aitm on August 24, 2018, 07:59:50 PM
Quote from: Mousetrap on August 24, 2018, 09:43:17 AM
I only learned later that God never intended people to be condemned, but it is people that condemn them self!

WOW what a life changing revelation...so you mean hell does not really exist? Because that is what this suggests..that god never really made a hell,,,people just decided to be fuck ups and VOILA! Hell magically appeared.



Yep....you have reached into the puddle of complete stupidity to pull off and present the "quote of complete ignorance of the year" !!!! Here is your Kooopon. ....

LOL..and you wonder why we find your babble such stupid shit and those who brag about it ...well.....less that 5th graders.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Unbeliever on August 24, 2018, 08:14:48 PM
Yes, and parents don't spank their children, the children spank themselves.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on August 24, 2018, 11:00:04 PM
Quote from: aitm on August 24, 2018, 07:59:50 PM
WOW what a life changing revelation...so you mean hell does not really exist? Because that is what this suggests..that god never really made a hell,,,people just decided to be fuck ups and VOILA! Hell magically appeared.



Yep....you have reached into the puddle of complete stupidity to pull off and present the "quote of complete ignorance of the year" !!!! Here is your Kooopon. ....

LOL..and you wonder why we find your babble such stupid shit and those who brag about it ...well.....less that 5th graders.

Yes, humans make everything, including a Hell like Katyn Forest or Auschwitz.  Christians and Atheists did agree on two things ... kill Poles and kill Jews.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Draconic Aiur on August 25, 2018, 05:31:52 AM
Quote from: Baruch on August 24, 2018, 11:00:04 PM
Yes, humans make everything, including a Hell like Katyn Forest or Auschwitz.  Christians and Atheists did agree on two things ... kill Poles and kill Jews.

Stalin is a shitty example
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on August 25, 2018, 07:03:40 AM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on August 25, 2018, 05:31:52 AM
Stalin is a shitty example

No true Scotsman.  For people here though, if one priest is a pedophile, then all Christians are pedophiles, right?
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 02:18:49 AM
Quote from: aitm on August 24, 2018, 07:59:50 PM
WOW what a life changing revelation...so you mean hell does not really exist? Because that is what this suggests..that god never really made a hell,,,people just decided to be fuck ups and VOILA! Hell magically appeared.



Yep....you have reached into the puddle of complete stupidity to pull off and present the "quote of complete ignorance of the year" !!!! Here is your Kooopon. ....

LOL..and you wonder why we find your babble such stupid shit and those who brag about it ...well.....less that 5th graders.

Yeah, no hell, no heaven, not even a purgatory.  Dead is dead. 
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on August 27, 2018, 07:32:37 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 02:18:49 AM
Yeah, no hell, no heaven, not even a purgatory.  Dead is dead.

That is what atheists hope for.  I find G-d to be both real and cruel.  I see no reason for G-d to let anyone off the literal hook.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Mousetrap on September 03, 2018, 10:29:25 AM
Quote from: aitm on August 24, 2018, 07:59:50 PM
WOW what a life changing revelation...so you mean hell does not really exist? Because that is what this suggests..that god never really made a hell,,,people just decided to be fuck ups and VOILA! Hell magically appeared.



Yep....you have reached into the puddle of complete stupidity to pull off and present the "quote of complete ignorance of the year" !!!! Here is your Kooopon. ....

LOL..and you wonder why we find your babble such stupid shit and those who brag about it ...well.....less that 5th graders.
If you would spent some time in reading what the Bible says, you would understand that Hell was not created for the human spirit, but for Satan and the rebellious angels who followed him.

Shall I tell you why I believe this is the truth?
When I started to read what the Bible says about so many other facts, except about the immortal human spirit and what comes after this life, I learned things about science, history, philosophy etc, that was so incredible, it took persons such as Newton and Kant and more, to incredible highs on their scientific knowledge. It took men such as Nietzsche and Russel, and more, their whole lifetimes in an attempt to discredit the Bible without realising, that when they attacked Christianity, they never touched the Bible.

This is the difference.
Atheists think they destroy the Bible by looking at what Christians do. They will take one apple with a worm, and blame the tree!

However, looking at Atheism, we have a poisonous tree, with fruit of vulgarity and 20th century massacres, yet they think they are building on snow white innocence.
Wake up man.
Atheism is a poison of hatred to anything that represents a creation of God.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Hydra009 on September 05, 2018, 12:34:43 AM
Quote from: Mousetrap on September 03, 2018, 10:29:25 AMAtheists think they destroy the Bible by looking at what Christians do. They will take one apple with a worm, and blame the tree!
If only there was some sort of bible verse that touched on that.  Something like, I dunno, by their fruit ye shall know them or something like that.  There's probably nothing in the bible like that, though.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Blackleaf on September 05, 2018, 12:42:43 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on September 05, 2018, 12:34:43 AM
If only there was some some bible verse that touched on that.  Something like, I dunno, by their fruit ye shall know them or something like that.  There's probably nothing in the bible like that, though.

If only the Bible even stood by its own merits. But from it's numerous inconsistencies, falsehoods, and vile teachings, the Bible can be easily dismissed as a product of barbaric, ignorant people rather than of a wise, benevolent diety. And judging by how seldom Christians even read it, they know this is true. If people truly believed an omniscient god wrote a book to share his knowledge and wisdom, they'd study the fuck out of that thing. Instead, they just go to church to listen to someone else's interpretation of what the Bible says.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Shiranu on September 05, 2018, 01:16:10 AM
Quote from: Mousetrap on September 03, 2018, 10:29:25 AM

However, looking at Atheism, we have a poisonous tree, with fruit of vulgarity and 20th century massacres, yet they think they are building on snow white innocence.
Wake up man.
Atheism is a poison of hatred to anything that represents a creation of God.


Matthew 7:3 - "And why behold you the mote that is in your brother's eye, but consider not the beam that is in your own eye?"
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SGOS on September 05, 2018, 03:57:50 AM
Quote from: Mousetrap on September 03, 2018, 10:29:25 AM
Atheists think they destroy the Bible by looking at what Christians do. They will take one apple with a worm, and blame the tree!
Notice how this idiot likes to spout Biblical sounding word salad even after he has lost his power to back it up.  But he does represent gods that actually exist.  Try and beat that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54XGQ6ZXxf8
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 05, 2018, 04:15:56 AM
Yes ... some prefer fiction about the future (I enjoyed many episodes too) and some prefer fiction about the past.  But either way, it is monkey see monkey do.

This book/drama has wisdom.  This other book/drama does not.  Partisanship, same as political ideology.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SGOS on September 05, 2018, 08:43:59 AM
The Stargate series avoids talking about Christianity and even the other major religions in their plot line, probably not to offend viewership.  I find it odd that a show whose main theme is the folly of worshipping false gods, would never include one line during it's 10 year run that includes the word "Christian", let alone identifies Christianity as the true religion, or even something else as the true religion, or even shows Earth people worshiping.  Not once in 10 years!  The closest it comes is somewhere toward the end of the series when some off-worlder asks General Landry, "Well what god do you believe in then?"  Landry says, "On Earth, people believe in many different things," and that is a far as the series treads onto the topic.

This is especially curious, when so many of the alien religions mimic Christianity almost perfectly as it reflected itself down through the ages, from burning witches to power grabs by humans in authority, forced worship supported by peers, and all the while spouting poetic sounding memes from some holy book that sounds like it might have been commissioned by King James.

I don't know if the series was followed weekly by much of a Christian audience.  It had to have some support to survive that long in North America, but I have this picture in my head of the Christian viewership in a big crowd watching the show together, and nodding in agreement when SG1 tells aliens they are worshiping a false God, while completely missing the satirical metaphor.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Mike Cl on September 05, 2018, 09:20:38 AM
Quote from: Mousetrap on September 03, 2018, 10:29:25 AM

Atheism is a poison of hatred to anything that represents a creation of God.
That is your perception.  Why?  Because you are a little man who has only his 'belief' that what he believes is real.  It is not, and you know this, which is why you are so very defensive.  Yours is a fear based belief.  But you still need to build a bigger and stronger boggy man to scare your fellow believers with.  You have settled on Atheism, as you call it.  You have created out of whole cloth what 'Atheism' believes in (for you desperately need to stay away from rational thought or empirical data in any honest way) so that you can make it a bigger and bigger and badder threat to your beliefs.   You fully understand that atheism is not a religion nor a belief; yet you are so fundamentally disingenuous that you simply cannot help but lie about it.  You are simply a chronic liar who cannot help himself.  I pity you and your family that has to put up with your sad, sad (and destructive) beliefs.  You and Pat Robertson are truly equal. 
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: trdsf on September 05, 2018, 11:18:34 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 05, 2018, 09:20:38 AM
You and Pat Robertson are truly equal.
No, Pat Robertson accepts enough science to admit that climate change is real (https://thinkprogress.org/pat-robertson-im-a-convert-on-global-warming-it-is-getting-hotter-e59900ef3b0f/).  Our little church mouse has demonstrated no acceptance or understanding of science at all, just word salad bingo.

It's not often you'll see me come to Pat Robertson's defense, but facts are facts are facts... except, of course, in Mouseworld.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Mike Cl on September 05, 2018, 11:35:23 AM
Quote from: trdsf on September 05, 2018, 11:18:34 AM
No, Pat Robertson accepts enough science to admit that climate change is real (https://thinkprogress.org/pat-robertson-im-a-convert-on-global-warming-it-is-getting-hotter-e59900ef3b0f/).  Our little church mouse has demonstrated no acceptance or understanding of science at all, just word salad bingo.

It's not often you'll see me come to Pat Robertson's defense, but facts are facts are facts... except, of course, in Mouseworld.
True enough.  He doesn't reach to the level of Robertson.  Talk about a low bar...................
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SGOS on September 05, 2018, 12:07:42 PM
Quote from: trdsf on September 05, 2018, 11:18:34 AM
It's not often you'll see me come to Pat Robertson's defense, but facts are facts are facts... except, of course, in Mouseworld.
You realize that, "He's not a complete idiot," is not the greatest defense.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 05, 2018, 12:56:12 PM
Quote from: SGOS on September 05, 2018, 08:43:59 AM
The Stargate series avoids talking about Christianity and even the other major religions in their plot line, probably not to offend viewership.  I find it odd that a show whose main theme is the folly of worshipping false gods, would never include one line during it's 10 year run that includes the word "Christian", let alone identifies Christianity as the true religion, or even something else as the true religion, or even shows Earth people worshiping.  Not once in 10 years!  The closest it comes is somewhere toward the end of the series when some off-worlder asks General Landry, "Well what god do you believe in then?"  Landry says, "On Earth, people believe in many different things," and that is a far as the series treads onto the topic.

This is especially curious, when so many of the alien religions mimic Christianity almost perfectly as it reflected itself down through the ages, from burning witches to power grabs by humans in authority, forced worship supported by peers, and all the while spouting poetic sounding memes from some holy book that sounds like it might have been commissioned by King James.

I don't know if the series was followed weekly by much of a Christian audience.  It had to have some support to survive that long in North America, but I have this picture in my head of the Christian viewership in a big crowd watching the show together, and nodding in agreement when SG1 tells aliens they are worshiping a false God, while completely missing the satirical metaphor.

No True Atheist?  Shows are put on to make money.  Further capitalism ... Oh the horror!

My ex, the Christian pastor, loved Stargate.  It is actually anti-polytheist, not atheist.

So was Muhammad a guauld?  The show was actually anti-pagan.  Most of the folks here claim to be atheists, are actually pagan, because they reject absolutist monotheism ... which implies they support relativistic polytheism.  In Hinduism and Buddhism, their gods aren't immortal and don't have absolute power.  Concepts actually brought into Abrahamic religion by Greek influenced theologians.

BTW - recent study of the witch trials in Europe ... it came about because of competitive shit-posting by Catholics vs Protestants.  Each side claimed to better protect the peasants against malevolent forces (aka the other side).  Their political actions inspired a witch hunt.  Sound familiar?  This has happened many times in America.

Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: trdsf on September 05, 2018, 01:04:34 PM
Quote from: SGOS on September 05, 2018, 12:07:42 PM
You realize that, "He's not a complete idiot," is not the greatest defense.
True, but there are those about whom I can't even say that.  For them, all you can do is thank them for providing further evidence that evolution is a blind process.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 05, 2018, 01:08:14 PM
Quote from: trdsf on September 05, 2018, 01:04:34 PM
True, but there are those about whom I can't even say that.  For them, all you can do is thank them for providing further evidence that evolution is a blind process.

But somehow other people here prove that they aren't blind.  Mixed evidence.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SGOS on September 06, 2018, 12:31:42 AM
Quote from: Baruch on September 05, 2018, 12:56:12 PM
Most of the folks here claim to be atheists, are actually pagan, because they reject absolutist monotheism ... which implies they support relativistic polytheism.
Meaningless concepts, baseless assumptions arriving at inane conclusions, but in no particular order.  How long does it take you to make shit like this up?   It's a statement that shouts who you are.  You should make it your signature and get rid of the "Free associating theist."
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Hydra009 on September 06, 2018, 01:16:20 AM
Also, "pagan" is a funny term to apply to people who mostly live in cities now.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 07:02:09 AM
Quote from: SGOS on September 06, 2018, 12:31:42 AM
Meaningless concepts, baseless assumptions arriving at inane conclusions, but in no particular order.  How long does it take you to make shit like this up?   It's a statement that shouts who you are.  You should make it your signature and get rid of the "Free associating theist."

It is spontaneous, because the insanity of other posters, means the material writes itself (see, AI).  Remember Tay, the Teen Girl AI?  The one that became a raving Nazi in one day?

Free thinking.  No one else here is thinking?  Yes, they are, repeating what their Marxist masters tell them to say.  Marxism ... yet another form of ... you are free to obey!

You expect responses to random other posts, on many other strings, are going to be "in order"?  What kind of control freak are you?
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 07:02:58 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on September 06, 2018, 01:16:20 AM
Also, "pagan" is a funny term to apply to people who mostly live in cities now.

Most people don't realize what polytheist means, has too many syllables.  Pagan as a label, helps those with lo-IQ.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SGOS on September 06, 2018, 08:57:53 AM
Quote from: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 07:02:58 AM
Most people don't realize what polytheist means, has too many syllables.  Pagan as a label, helps those with lo-IQ.
People here know what polytheist means, and you know that.  In your attempt at self aggrandizement, you have manufactured an untruth in an attempt to paint others as simple minded.  But just in case your implication is missed, you incorrectly call others pagans on the grounds that their low IQs require a simple word, even if you use that label inaccurately.  And in your cowardly passive aggressive nature, you imply that you do this to be helpful.  But in truth, you are hateful liar and a troll who flings false accusations, demeaning names, and hurtful remarks wildly in an attempt to annoy anyone within hearing distance.

Polytheism is no longer the defining characteristic of Paganism.  You are talking about sects which died out hundreds of years ago.  Today's pagans usually believe that the divine (singular or plural) resides in nature, but polytheism is neither required nor a defining characteristic. 

PAGANISM IS NOT ATHEISM, and you know that, so you attempt to redefine atheism idiosyncratically in order to use the pejorative "pagan" as a descriptor.  The pejorative connotation no longer exists.  Pagans now call themselves pagans.  Getting so angry that you call someone a pagan is the same as calling someone a Presbyterian and expecting them to be insulted, and calling an atheist a pagan is inaccurate and absurd.

Modern Paganism
Quote
https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&oq=list+of+pagan+religions&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ITVB_enUS637US637&q=list+of+modern+pagan+religions&gs_l=hp..1.0j0i22i30l2.0.0.1.164837...........0.7wNQt7WejbU

Quote
What do the Pagans Believe In?

Paganism is best described as a group of religions and spiritual traditions based on a reverence for nature. Like Hinduism, there is no single founder, scripture or religious philosophy. Most Pagans, however, believe in the divine character of the natural world and Paganism is often described as an "Earth religion".
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 12:55:44 PM
Quote from: SGOS on September 06, 2018, 08:57:53 AM
People here know what polytheist means, and you know that.  In your attempt at self aggrandizement, you have manufactured an untruth in an attempt to paint others as simple minded.  But just in case your implication is missed, you incorrectly call others pagans on the grounds that their low IQs require a simple word, even if you use that label inaccurately.  And in your cowardly passive aggressive nature, you imply that you do this to be helpful.  But in truth, you are hateful liar and a troll who flings false accusations, demeaning names, and hurtful remarks wildly in an attempt to annoy anyone within hearing distance.

Polytheism is no longer the defining characteristic of Paganism.  You are talking about sects which died out hundreds of years ago.  Today's pagans usually believe that the divine (singular or plural) resides in nature, but polytheism is neither required nor a defining characteristic. 

PAGANISM IS NOT ATHEISM, and you know that, so you attempt to redefine atheism idiosyncratically in order to use the pejorative "pagan" as a descriptor.  The pejorative connotation no longer exists.  Pagans now call themselves pagans.  Getting so angry that you call someone a pagan is the same as calling someone a Presbyterian and expecting them to be insulted, and calling an atheist a pagan is inaccurate and absurd.

Modern Paganism

No, Democrat isn't Communist .. is it Satanist?  See, I can redefine words same as you.

So you tell me .. what Stargate was about.  Goa'uld were clearly polytheist (there was more than one of them) and not actually immortal (same as paganism).  Hindu and Buddhist deities aren't immortal .. or are you saying No-True-Hindu or No-True-Buddhist?

Love of alien supermen?  Seems pretty goa'uld to me.  Y'all want to post your profiles at Nephelim-R-Us?  Except for giant robots with the "all-spark" ... pretty not-atheist to me.  Rename it what you want, but it seems that at heart, if not in mind, people here are not-true-atheists.  This isn't even the argument ... that ideology is a kind of religion.  Supermen are deities ... of the pagan style, not the Abrahamic style.  Not that these exist ... but y'all want them to exist ... same as Abrahamics want their mono-deity to exist.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SGOS on September 06, 2018, 01:01:03 PM
Quote from: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 12:55:44 PM
No, Democrat isn't Communist .. is it Satanist?  See, I can redefine words same as you.

So you tell me .. what Stargate was about.  Goa'uld were clearly polytheist (there was more than one of them) and not actually immortal (same as paganism).  Hindu and Buddhist deities aren't immortal .. or are you saying No-True-Hindu or No-True-Buddhist?

Love of alien supermen?  Seems pretty goa'uld to me.  Y'all want to post your profiles at Nephelim-R-Us?  Except for giant robots with the "all-spark" ... pretty not-atheist to me.  Rename it what you want, but it seems that at heart, if not in mind, people here are not-true-atheists.  This isn't even the argument ... that ideology is a kind of religion.  Supermen are deities ... of the pagan style, not the Abrahamic style.  Not that these exist ... but y'all want them to exist ... same as Abrahamics want their mono-deity to exist.
Wait for your head to clear, and then try responding again.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 01:05:00 PM
Quote from: SGOS on September 06, 2018, 01:01:03 PM
Wait for your head to clear, and then try responding again.

You already showed your hand.  Don't play poker much?
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: trdsf on September 06, 2018, 01:05:44 PM
Having actually been a practicing Pagan, I can definitely and definitively say that it is not in any way, shape or form atheism.

Pagan is a cover-all term for several different generally polytheistic beliefs and practices (Wicca, Dianism, Thelema, Druidry...), in much the same way that Christian covers several different kinds of theisms (Protestantism, Catholicism, Mormonism, Orthodoxy...) centered on the mythology about and around Jeshua bar-Joseph (or whatever messianic preacher or preachers were used as the basis for Christian mythology).

The prefices poly- and a- are not synonyms, it should be obvious.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: trdsf on September 06, 2018, 01:08:41 PM
Quote from: SGOS on September 06, 2018, 01:01:03 PM
Wait for your head to clear, and then try responding again.
I think you meant
(https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/magic8ball/images/b/be/Replyhazytryagainlater.jpg)
perhaps?  :D
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 01:10:53 PM
Orthodox Christians aren't good at math either.  They think that Trinity means One ;-))

If you are a modern pagan (or were) fine on you.  But that isn't Hinduism or Buddhism.  Those are polytheist, and quite existing now.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SGOS on September 06, 2018, 01:49:16 PM
Quote from: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 01:05:00 PM
You already showed your hand.
You haven't shown anything.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Unbeliever on September 06, 2018, 01:53:29 PM
"You've given everything away! I know where the poison is!"
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 07:05:20 PM
Quote from: SGOS on September 06, 2018, 01:49:16 PM
You haven't shown anything.

Such pique.  You said something interesting about Stargate ... might not have even realized it.  It struck me for the first time in a new way (context different) and I just had to share the analogy.  But please don't take personal offense.  If you think you are an atheist, whether or not you are, I have no problem with that.  But it might be a new DSM V condition ... ontological dysphoria?
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 07:06:10 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 06, 2018, 01:53:29 PM
"You've given everything away! I know where the poison is!"

If there is nothing in the cupboard .. I don't think I need fear your natty spice rack.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Hydra009 on September 06, 2018, 08:03:01 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 06, 2018, 01:53:29 PM
"You've given everything away! I know where the poison is!"
To be fair, he was right.  The glass that he thought was poisoned was actually poisoned.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Unbeliever on September 06, 2018, 08:34:03 PM
Yeah, and he was also right about avoiding land-wars in Asia...
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SGOS on September 06, 2018, 10:53:29 PM
Quote from: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 07:05:20 PM
Such pique.  You said something interesting about Stargate ... might not have even realized it.  It struck me for the first time in a new way (context different) and I just had to share the analogy.  But please don't take personal offense. 
You would never intentionally try to offend anyone would you?  Nor would you would ever delight in triggering an SJW who pisses you off.  Nor does most of your social interaction revolve around cheap shots and venom.  You're just too sweet and loving for that, right?  Don't worry about offending me.  I'm just pointing out that you're a social misanthrope.  Oh... And throw in "paranoid misogynist," now that I'm thinking about it.  Somebody needs to tell you so that you can grow up.  But please don't take offense.

Quote from: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 07:05:20 PM
If you think you are an atheist, whether or not you are, I have no problem with that.
Thanks for your permission.  I'm relieved.

Quote from: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 07:05:20 PM
But it might be a new DSM V condition ... ontological dysphoria?
lol  What an asshole.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 11:51:20 PM
Quote from: SGOS on September 06, 2018, 10:53:29 PM
You would never intentionally try to offend anyone would you?  Nor would you would ever delight in triggering an SJW who pisses you off.  Nor does most of your social interaction revolve around cheap shots and venom.  You're just too sweet and loving for that, right?  Don't worry about offending me.  I'm just pointing out that you're a social misanthrope.  Oh... And throw in "paranoid misogynist," now that I'm thinking about it.  Somebody needs to tell you so that you can grow up.  But please don't take offense.

Thanks for your permission.  I'm relieved.

lol  What an asshole.

I still get excited by unexpected posts ... but it is humanity per se that I have a problem with.  Politically for example, I don't dispute with a particular voter, but with the voters in general.  As far as society goes, i am hardly the only person here who feels alienation.  We all reek of alienation of various kinds.  It is shocking how one is received, even after three years, by specific incidents.  Y'all aren't boring ;-)

No, I am not sweet.  Is that maturity?  I thought sweetness is the opposite of maturity.  And anyone with experience with actual shared life with the same or opposite gender, how can they not despair?  A coworker just separated from his partner.

No, a killer, a rapist, a thief is an asshole.  I am just another dick among many.

Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SGOS on September 07, 2018, 07:52:45 AM
Quote from: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 11:51:20 PM
I still get excited by unexpected posts ...
Hopefully, you don't masturbate when you get one of these.  And I've actually been concerned that I'm feeding you exactly what you so desperately need and want from this forum, and that in the end, I might be encouraging your disruptive anti-social behavior. 

Quote from: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 11:51:20 PM
but it is humanity per se that I have a problem with.  Politically for example, I don't dispute with a particular voter, but with the voters in general.  As far as society goes, i am hardly the only person here who feels alienation.  We all reek of alienation of various kinds.  It is shocking how one is received, even after three years, by specific incidents.  Y'all aren't boring ;-)
Everyone has problems, some manage them better than others.  But when you create vicious circles to intensify and cultivate your hatred of others, you should not be shocked after 3 years when someone addresses it, or in the case of a spouse, walks out of your life leaving you to simmer in your own stew.  Most people put up with the occasional lapse of civility, bad attitude, and poor judgment.  You are entitled to the occasional bad day, but when a whole life revolves around harboring hateful thoughts and nurturing slights that have to be acknowledged every third sentence, it becomes a drag, and people will tire of their role as the target of your unresolved issues.

Quote from: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 11:51:20 PM
No, I am not sweet.  Is that maturity?  I thought sweetness is the opposite of maturity. 
I used "sweet" as hyperbole in an attempt to underscore your attempts to veil your true intentions.  I apologize.  Maturity is not about sweetness or being a constant dick.  It's more about good judgment and growth.

Quote from: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 11:51:20 PM
And anyone with experience with actual shared life with the same or opposite gender, how can they not despair?  A coworker just separated from his partner.
"Get over it," is more than an expression of disapproval when spoken with an attitude of contempt.  That pejorative trivializes the wealth of meaning expressed in the actual words.  They contain a goldmine of good advice.  But learning to do it is not easy when one has become habituated to harboring slights and resentments.  And you have to learn how on your own, but it is not impossible.  In addition, it's emotionally healthful, and a major step toward maturity.

Quote from: Baruch on September 06, 2018, 11:51:20 PM
No, a killer, a rapist, a thief is an asshole.  I am just another dick among many.
I don't think any special nuance is necessary.  Being an asshole, being a dick.  It's the same thing.  If someone comes to your defense and says, "Oh, he's not an asshole.  He's just a dick," there is little reason to take pride in it.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 07, 2018, 01:00:31 PM
Every post in every string ... implied or actual personal insult?  Well, takes a tea leaf reader to tell sometimes.

Sorry, I don't share your theology.  I don't share your politics (maybe).  Get over it.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SGOS on September 07, 2018, 01:49:51 PM
Quote from: Baruch on September 07, 2018, 01:00:31 PM
Sorry, I don't share your theology.
Yep, an asshole.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 07, 2018, 06:56:29 PM
Quote from: SGOS on September 07, 2018, 01:49:51 PM
Yep, an asshole.

Someone who watched Team America, and still doesn't get "it".  Go projective vomit on someone else.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 04:00:17 AM
Quote from: SGOS on September 05, 2018, 08:43:59 AM
The Stargate series avoids talking about Christianity and even the other major religions in their plot line, probably not to offend viewership.  I find it odd that a show whose main theme is the folly of worshipping false gods, would never include one line during it's 10 year run that includes the word "Christian", let alone identifies Christianity as the true religion, or even something else as the true religion, or even shows Earth people worshiping.  Not once in 10 years!  The closest it comes is somewhere toward the end of the series when some off-worlder asks General Landry, "Well what god do you believe in then?"  Landry says, "On Earth, people believe in many different things," and that is a far as the series treads onto the topic.

This is especially curious, when so many of the alien religions mimic Christianity almost perfectly as it reflected itself down through the ages, from burning witches to power grabs by humans in authority, forced worship supported by peers, and all the while spouting poetic sounding memes from some holy book that sounds like it might have been commissioned by King James.

I don't know if the series was followed weekly by much of a Christian audience.  It had to have some support to survive that long in North America, but I have this picture in my head of the Christian viewership in a big crowd watching the show together, and nodding in agreement when SG1 tells aliens they are worshiping a false God, while completely missing the satirical metaphor.

Much of the series was about ridiculing religion.  They always did it by pointing it out through aliens.  I loved it!
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 08, 2018, 08:47:50 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 04:00:17 AM
Much of the series was about ridiculing religion.  They always did it by pointing it out through aliens.  I loved it!

Correct.  The spat was about .. it ridicules Christianity.  The gua'uld were much like polytheist deities.  Not at all like Abrahamic deities.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: SGOS on September 08, 2018, 09:34:02 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 04:00:17 AM
Much of the series was about ridiculing religion.  They always did it by pointing it out through aliens.  I loved it!
They did ridicule religion, mostly Christianity, but they ridiculed in a way that Christian viewers didn't write in to have the series cancelled.  How did they do that?  I think Christians (the main viewership) simply missed the ridicule (I would prefer to call it the Exposé) because religions are entrenched in seeing all other religions as ridiculous, while they view their own as true.  This is odd since lack of reason (the basis of all religions) is identical.  Only the doctrine changes.  How can one religion view their closest cousins as fools, without being aware of their own foolishness and do it with such convincing sincerity?  The answer must be that they can't identify foolishness.  They can only identify doctrine, which is the least important part of the whole ideology.

Adam took a bite of the apple and saw that he was naked (doctrine).  Allah told Mohammed to rape infidels (doctrine).  Both are logically foolish, but one is viewed as ridiculous, while the other is truth.  So no matter how much of SG1 was a metaphor for Christianity, Christians were unable to see it because it was always presented as "that other religion."
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 08, 2018, 11:33:38 AM
Perhaps.  The writers may have been closet atheists, rather than explicit anti-polytheists.  Hollyweird is like that.

Most scifi is anti-theist, but in its own way, a materialist version of polytheism (if there is fantasy involved).  Most scifi is science fantasy ... because actual fiction restricted to actual science, would be a documentary.

So how did you like Young Einstein?  Had nothing to do with physics, was entirely creative burlesque.

I took Buckaroo Banzai the same way, only without abusing historical personages.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Unbeliever on September 08, 2018, 02:10:20 PM
Quote from: SGOS on September 08, 2018, 09:34:02 AM
How can one religion view their closest cousins as fools, without being aware of their own foolishness and do it with such convincing sincerity?

Trying to take the splinter out of their brother's eye while still blinded by the log in their own eye.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 02:35:41 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 08, 2018, 02:10:20 PM
Trying to take the splinter out of their brothers eye while still blinded by the log in their own eye.

That IS assuming that there is any logic in theistic beliefs.  Nothing angers a theist as much as someone who is ALMOST believing the same thing.  If one doesn't kneel JUST SO, you are more a heretic than another who kneels not at all.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Unbeliever on September 08, 2018, 02:38:12 PM
That's kind of like robots who almost look human, but not quite - it's the creep factor.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 08, 2018, 02:41:08 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 02:35:41 PM
That IS assuming that there is any logic in theistic beliefs.  Nothing angers a theist as much as someone who is ALMOST believing the same thing.  If one doesn't kneel JUST SO, you are more a heretic than another who kneels not at all.

All Athenians are polytheists
Socrates is an Athenian
Therefore Socrates is a polytheist

But is that really true?  The first line might be a false axiom.

Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 08, 2018, 02:43:41 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 08, 2018, 02:38:12 PM
That's kind of like robots who almost look human, but not quite - it's the creep factor.

Psychological zombies ... perhaps Chalmers is right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie

Most people here agree with Dennett ... because he confirms their conclusions.  Except that is called, rationalization, a fallacy.

Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Cavebear on September 12, 2018, 06:08:23 AM
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 08, 2018, 02:38:12 PM
That's kind of like robots who almost look human, but not quite - it's the creep factor.

I like the idea that you can built a robot as intelligent as you want, so long as it doesn't look human, and the idea that you can build a robot that looks human but it has to be a non-AI.  But then someone will break the rule and then we're all toast.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on September 12, 2018, 06:36:49 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on September 12, 2018, 06:08:23 AM
I like the idea that you can built a robot as intelligent as you want, so long as it doesn't look human, and the idea that you can build a robot that looks human but it has to be a non-AI.  But then someone will break the rule and then we're all toast.

Then put butter, sugar and cinnamon on your toast (as we did in college).
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Gregory on March 05, 2020, 11:26:43 PM
Blasphemy is a crime without a victim.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on March 06, 2020, 09:34:16 AM
Quote from: Gregory on March 05, 2020, 11:26:43 PM
Blasphemy is a crime without a victim.

It leads to the crime of executing apostates.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Gregory on March 06, 2020, 10:26:55 PM
Quote from: Baruch on March 06, 2020, 09:34:16 AM
It leads to the crime of executing apostates.

That's not the fault of the blasphemer.
Title: Re: Not Great Logic, But Something to Consider
Post by: Baruch on March 07, 2020, 10:12:20 AM
Quote from: Gregory on March 06, 2020, 10:26:55 PM
That's not the fault of the blasphemer.

It takes two to decapitate, unless you are very nimble.