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Science Section => Science General Discussion => Biology, Psychology & Medicine => Topic started by: GSOgymrat on May 29, 2018, 03:44:28 PM

Title: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: GSOgymrat on May 29, 2018, 03:44:28 PM
While overly simplistic and playing fast and loose with terms, I think this video makes some good points. I wouldn't have said how these elements of modernity are making us "mentally ill" but are a source of worry and dissatisfaction. I tend to avoid pathologizing unless doing so is helpful. Several of these features of modernity share the same root cause: unrealistic expectations.

https://youtu.be/yO0v_JqxFmQ
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Cavebear on May 29, 2018, 04:28:22 PM
Before I watch this video, I bet I am guilty of less than 1/3.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Cavebear on May 29, 2018, 04:44:09 PM
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Before I watch this video, I bet I am guilty of less than 1/3.

OK,  I watched.  There were 6 basic claims.

1.  Meritocracy.  I value that, the video didn't.  The claim is that MOST fail.  I didn't.
2.  Individualism.  I value that, the video didn't.  Because it said most aren't.  Anyone want to say that I'm not?
3. Secularism.  The video said that was bad.  Duh, I'm an atheist and enjoy it.
4. Romantatism.  THe video said that we all have a dream we can't match so we "settle".  I don't and I didn't.  I LOVE living by myself.
5. The Media - The video said the media eats us all up.  I'm not elsewhjere than here, when I choose to be.
6.  Perfection - The video said we fail to achieve the perfection of our minds.  I settled for COMPETANCE.  Ever read the Peter Principle?  It says everyone gets stressed bty beibng promoted beyond their skill,  Not ME!  LOL  I knew exactly what I could do and was happy never goihg a step farther.

I scored 6 of 6!
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Cavebear on May 29, 2018, 04:47:19 PM
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OK,  I watched.  There were 6 basic claims.

1.  Meritocracy.  I value that, the video didn't.  The claim is that MOST fail.  I didn't.
2.  Individualism.  I value that, the video didn't.  Because it said most aren't.  Anyone want to say that I'm not?
3. Secularism.  The video said that was bad.  Duh, I'm an atheist and enjoy it.
4. Romantatism.  THe video said that we all have a dream we can't match so we "settle".  I don't and I didn't.  I LOVE living by myself.
5. The Media - The video said the media eats us all up.  I'm not elsewhjere than here, when I choose to be.
6.  Perfection - The video said we fail to achieve the perfection of our minds.  I settled for COMPETANCE.  Ever read the Peter Principle?  It says everyone gets stressed bty beibng promoted beyond their skill,  Not ME!  LOL  I knew exactly what I could do and was happy never goihg a step farther.

I scored 6 of 6!

On the other hand, I can't type worth a damn..., LOL!  And I don't care.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Baruch on May 29, 2018, 08:17:47 PM
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On the other hand, I can't type worth a damn..., LOL!  And I don't care.

I don't care if you can type either.  It would be more important if I enjoyed the content of what you typed more.

Human beings have always been physically and mentally ill.  It isn't new, just study history.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: trdsf on May 30, 2018, 08:24:03 PM
As soon as he cast secularism as a bad thing, I stopped watching.  My secular outlook is one of the things that keeps me relatively sane in the face of daunting odds -- especially in that outside of religion, I no longer think of my failings as evidence that I've pissed off some "all benevolent" god again, but just "wow, I fucked up, I better fix that".
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: GSOgymrat on May 31, 2018, 07:29:18 AM
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As soon as he cast secularism as a bad thing, I stopped watching.  My secular outlook is one of the things that keeps me relatively sane in the face of daunting odds -- especially in that outside of religion, I no longer think of my failings as evidence that I've pissed off some "all benevolent" god again, but just "wow, I fucked up, I better fix that".

Secularism is one of my sacred cows and as I've said before politically I don't care about atheism, I care about secularism. Secularism is important because it gives individuals the freedom to decide what they value and how they are going to live their life without government intervention. However, secularism isn't really a value system. It gives individuals the freedom to be an atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, Scientologist, Humanist, nihilist, etcetera. Secularism charges individuals with the responsibility of figuring life out on their own, which can be challenging. Secularism is freedom to choose your belief system but then you have to choose what to believe, just as freedom of speech allows you to express yourself but then you have to choose what to say.

Secularism also means you have to tolerate diversity of beliefs and behaviors, basically that we all agree that we are going to disagree. Secularism ensures there will always be non-conformity, that your neighbor may be doing some weird stuff that you believe is wrong. This can be difficult because conformity of values and behaviors is comforting to many people. I enjoy living in a secular society but I recognize it can be challenging.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: SGOS on May 31, 2018, 09:19:34 AM
We hear this a lot: "The modern world is stressful and takes a bigger toll than older simpler times."  But hunting and foraging must have caused a lot of stress along with the feudal/peasant times and all the rest of the bloody dangerous past.

But maybe it's true.  I have wondered about this.  Perhaps modernization presents a different kind of stress, not necessary a bigger stress, but a type of stress that we did not have enough time to evolve to cope with.  Is it worse stressing out about being eaten alive by a saber-toothed tiger, or to die from an ulcer after being crushed and humiliated by a guy who wants nothing more than to take all your money away from you?

Sometimes I think it's the same old trope as "Kids today are worse than they were..."  But I don't actually know that.  I've just wondered.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: GSOgymrat on May 31, 2018, 09:43:47 AM
The world changes but does the human condition fundamentally change? I am not sure. I do think modernity presents some different kinds of stress. For example, be it the year 1018 or 2018, people want to feel validated, but when in history could the average person be either praised or attacked by thousands of strangers from across the global for expressing an opinion while sitting on the toilet?
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Hydra009 on May 31, 2018, 12:23:53 PM
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The world changes but does the human condition fundamentally change? I am not sure. I do think modernity presents some different kinds of stress. For example, be it the year 1018 or 2018, people want to feel validated, but when in history could the average person be either praised or attacked by thousands of strangers from across the global for expressing an opinion while sitting on the toilet?
The human condition has not fundamentally changed.  People still have the same kinds of psychological needs, but the environment has changed drastically.

I've heard a theory that a modern lifestyle lends itself to different sorts of trials and tribulations and therefore different types of psychological unease.

In an earlier age, the stress of near-starvation or deadly disease or war might leave lasting psychological scars on the populace, in modern societies that's a lot less prevalent so people have very different gripes and problems.  They're usually less life-and-death and more of a struggle to achieve a satisfying career or get an ideal romantic partner or kick an addiction like cigarettes or opioids.

I've seen someone flip out over a malfunctioning fax machine and casually wondered how they'd deal with Bleeding Kansas or the plague of Justinian.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: trdsf on May 31, 2018, 11:42:10 PM
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The world changes but does the human condition fundamentally change?
I think it does, but not as quickly as the world changes.  The available information load is way ahead of most people's ability to cope with it, but at least in the developed world, you can't realistically opt out.  I get funny looks just for telling people no, I don't do Twitter or Facebook -- even after the latest revelation of how they've fucked up user security again.  I actually get less grief telling people I don't have cable TV.

Even the option to not engage is taken forcibly away from us: my bus ride to work was an opportunity to get my brain engaged in the morning, or to start winding it down in the afternoon -- but I now the city bus line blasts audio ads loud enough to overwhelm my earbuds even when I have the volume turned up too far, literally every one to two minutes.

So here we sit, possessors of remarkable biological computers inside our skulls finely tuned to make connections and find patterns, and we spend almost all our waking hours in a state of sensory overload.  It becomes like trying to find patterns in static -- and the way we are wired, we can, but we can't tell that accidental patterns are meaningless.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Cavebear on June 01, 2018, 12:07:51 AM
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I don't care if you can type either.  It would be more important if I enjoyed the content of what you typed more.

Human beings have always been physically and mentally ill.  It isn't new, just study history.

Saying that suggests that most humans are ill.  But if so, isn't that the norm?  And if it is the norm, than that is well, "normal".  If you are objecting that we should be "better", well, there is always a "better".  There is no upper end to "better".

Are you always this irrational?
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Blackleaf on June 01, 2018, 12:08:36 AM
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As soon as he cast secularism as a bad thing, I stopped watching.  My secular outlook is one of the things that keeps me relatively sane in the face of daunting odds -- especially in that outside of religion, I no longer think of my failings as evidence that I've pissed off some "all benevolent" god again, but just "wow, I fucked up, I better fix that".

What is with this idea that religion is somehow the source of morality and happiness? Religion has been the route cause of wars, internal violence, abuse, denial of rights... Research has shown that the less religious a country is, the less violence it has. The idea that America is somehow going downhill due to the decline of Christianity is ridiculous.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Cavebear on June 01, 2018, 12:26:27 AM
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I think it does, but not as quickly as the world changes.  The available information load is way ahead of most people's ability to cope with it, but at least in the developed world, you can't realistically opt out.  I get funny looks just for telling people no, I don't do Twitter or Facebook -- even after the latest revelation of how they've fucked up user security again.  I actually get less grief telling people I don't have cable TV.

Even the option to not engage is taken forcibly away from us: my bus ride to work was an opportunity to get my brain engaged in the morning, or to start winding it down in the afternoon -- but I now the city bus line blasts audio ads loud enough to overwhelm my earbuds even when I have the volume turned up too far, literally every one to two minutes.

So here we sit, possessors of remarkable biological computers inside our skulls finely tuned to make connections and find patterns, and we spend almost all our waking hours in a state of sensory overload.  It becomes like trying to find patterns in static -- and the way we are wired, we can, but we can't tell that accidental patterns are meaningless.

I don't do Twitter or Facebook either.  I suspected them from the start.  I visit those places most likely to help me think while also least likely to gather my information. 
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Baruch on June 01, 2018, 04:55:55 AM
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Saying that suggests that most humans are ill.  But if so, isn't that the norm?  And if it is the norm, than that is well, "normal".  If you are objecting that we should be "better", well, there is always a "better".  There is no upper end to "better".

Are you always this irrational?

Illness is another victim status to be used by the Left.  But if we are all ill, then it isn't useful as rhetoric.

No, I have always believed, that "better" is both possible and desirable.  I don't believe in "progress" which is the idea that this is inevitable and that people don't have to actively choose it.  Like Democrats presuppose that demographic change makes their victory in every election, inevitable.

Agree with Cavebear ... rational?  Disagree with Cavebear ... irrational?  Ego plus virtue signaling.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: GSOgymrat on June 01, 2018, 07:53:27 AM
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I don't do Twitter or Facebook either.  I suspected them from the start.  I visit those places most likely to help me think while also least likely to gather my information. 

The only social media I participate in is this forum and I repeatedly question whether doing so is good for me. My reservations have nothing to do with people here but rather whether I should be broadcasting my thoughts publically. I did quit for a year.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: SGOS on June 01, 2018, 09:00:33 AM
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The only social media I participate in is this forum and I repeatedly question whether doing so is good for me. My reservations have nothing to do with people here but rather whether I should be broadcasting my thoughts publically. I did quit for a year.
LOL.  I've wondered the same thing, and this is my only social media also.  I worry about thinking out loud too, but I don't think we are any worse here than people on facebook who spout off in front of people who actually know them.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Baruch on June 01, 2018, 11:36:43 AM
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The only social media I participate in is this forum and I repeatedly question whether doing so is good for me. My reservations have nothing to do with people here but rather whether I should be broadcasting my thoughts publically. I did quit for a year.

I am also currently concerned about security problems here.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 01, 2018, 12:40:57 PM
People say "mental illness" like it's a bad thing. The most interesting people in history tended to be the crazy ones.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: trdsf on June 01, 2018, 01:32:09 PM
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People say "mental illness" like it's a bad thing. The most interesting people in history tended to be the crazy ones.
Or, as I've been known to say, I don't suffer from insanity, I revel in it.  :D
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Baruch on June 01, 2018, 07:32:21 PM
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People say "mental illness" like it's a bad thing. The most interesting people in history tended to be the crazy ones.

Yes, Hitler wasn't boring, was he.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Baruch on June 01, 2018, 07:34:11 PM
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Or, as I've been known to say, I don't suffer from insanity, I revel in it.  :D

When I was a boy, I Revelled in it (model kits).

(https://www.revell.com/product-images/80-5605-lg.jpg)
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: aitm on June 01, 2018, 07:43:30 PM
Consider that 200 years ago, it was relatively common for children to be considered adults in their early teens. I really consider our ancestors to be incredibly strong compared to us today. 3,4,500 years ago ,children were raped and parents killed and sold off into slavery and many escaped and STILL were able to have somewhat normal lives. Millions of stories that will never be heard overcome the few odd-balls that we do. Early american children, like elsewhere in the world were pretty much fighting for their lives as soon as they could walk, working the garden or field or livestock and many died working livestock.

And by the way, had absolutely no power in dealing with employers, and there was no government to really help, and the vast majority of the world had no real authority. Imagine life like that? Fuck that. Let me complain about the bad day I had....
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 01, 2018, 09:23:33 PM
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Or, as I've been known to say, I don't suffer from insanity, I revel in it.  :D
I'm not insane, but I'm a carrier.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 01, 2018, 09:25:45 PM
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Consider that 200 years ago, it was relatively common for children to be considered adults in their early teens. I really consider our ancestors to be incredibly strong compared to us today. 3,4,500 years ago ,children were raped and parents killed and sold off into slavery and many escaped and STILL were able to have somewhat normal lives. Millions of stories that will never be heard overcome the few odd-balls that we do. Early american children, like elsewhere in the world were pretty much fighting for their lives as soon as they could walk, working the garden or field or livestock and many died working livestock.
Dude, they were largely batshit in those days without heavy duty trauma. They believe in witches and spells and incubus/succubus attacks and demon possessions. Just your basic horror show.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: aitm on June 01, 2018, 10:07:47 PM
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Dude, they were largely batshit in those days without heavy duty trauma. They believe in witches and spells and incubus/succubus attacks and demon possessions. Just your basic horror show.

Given the life they suffered, I grant them whatever the fuck they could conceive of to survive. The piss-ant of all of them walk over any of today's Rambo's and laugh at the simplicity.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Baruch on June 01, 2018, 11:27:29 PM
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Dude, they were largely batshit in those days without heavy duty trauma. They believe in witches and spells and incubus/succubus attacks and demon possessions. Just your basic horror show.

Drugs kept them going.  They weren't illegal ... the soy boys hadn't been castrated yet.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Hydra009 on June 02, 2018, 12:45:33 AM
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Dude, they were largely batshit in those days without heavy duty trauma. They believe in witches and spells and incubus/succubus attacks and demon possessions. Just your basic horror show.
In fairness, we have "modern" people who wear tinfoil hats, start moral panics about alleged satanic cults, and think stuff like D&D and Harry Potter are pathways into the occult (implying that the fictional magic therein is somehow real).  Granted, there are no resulting hangings nowadays and this stuff isn't as popular and influential as it used to be, but batshit still has a big checkmark.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 02, 2018, 05:07:45 AM
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Given the life they suffered, I grant them whatever the fuck they could conceive of to survive. The piss-ant of all of them walk over any of today's Rambo's and laugh at the simplicity.
"If you hang long enough, you get used to being hung."
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on June 02, 2018, 05:08:59 AM
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In fairness, we have "modern" people who wear tinfoil hats, start moral panics about alleged satanic cults, and think stuff like D&D and Harry Potter are pathways into the occult (implying that the fictional magic therein is somehow real).  Granted, there are no resulting hangings nowadays and this stuff isn't as popular and influential as it used to be, but batshit still has a big checkmark.
The difference between burning books and burning people is noticeable to the trained eye.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: SGOS on June 02, 2018, 07:20:36 AM
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In fairness, we have "modern" people who wear tinfoil hats, start moral panics about alleged satanic cults, and think stuff like D&D and Harry Potter are pathways into the occult (implying that the fictional magic therein is somehow real).  Granted, there are no resulting hangings nowadays and this stuff isn't as popular and influential as it used to be, but batshit still has a big checkmark.
I'd wish I could be around hundreds of years into the future to see how people refer back to us.  I wouldn't be surprised to hear them say, "Those people during the Millennium believed in demons and witches and Satanic cults that called upon the Devil to wreck havoc on society."  In fact, they would be right because some did.  I'm thinking there were also doubters back in the 12th century who we fail to give credit to.  I'd speculate that superstition was more the norm than it is today, but the human species still seems very primitive to me.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Baruch on June 02, 2018, 07:34:06 AM
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I'd wish I could be around hundreds of years into the future to see how people refer back to us.  I wouldn't be surprised to hear them say, "Those people during the Millennium believed in demons and witches and Satanic cults that called upon the Devil to wreck havoc on society."  In fact, they would be right because some did.  I'm thinking there were also doubters back in the 12th century who we fail to give credit to.  I'd speculate that superstition was more the norm than it is today, but the human species still seems very primitive to me.

People never change ... it is biology.  Though some madmen wish to change our biology, in their brainiac wisdom.  Culture and language change, technology changes.  By definition, human nature cannot change, that is what "one's nature" means, it is what transcends your individuality.

Unfortunately that means that the passions that move men's hearts will continue to rage.  There will be no end to idle speculation, ideology and delusion.  If you modify humanity fundamentally, then we aren't the same species, humanity is extinct, succeeded by something else.  Some wish for that as well, they seek the extinction of their own species.  Don't listen to them!
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: SGOS on June 02, 2018, 08:17:44 AM
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Unfortunately that means that the passions that move men's hearts will continue to rage.  There will be no end to idle speculation, ideology and delusion.
I remember years ago, a nice guy who liked perpetuating rumors of Satanic cults, just as Hydra described.  This guy told me of  some cult over in Northern Idaho that would abduct victims in the middle night by forming a human chain across a lonely stretch of highway, and take the passengers off to be used in sacrificial rituals.

It was quite a chilling description, and it was a time when communes were not uncommon, some with a religious overtones, so it was possible to believe that there was some strange group living back in the woods of isolated North Idaho.  There no doubt were, but that they were sacrificing humans without the knowledge of the law stretches the imagination.

This guy explained it with remarkable calm while I had chills running up my spine.  Later, I learned in psychology that a common give away of delusional behavior is the delusional person often describes the most extraordinary delusion in a detached manner, as if the delusion was just an ordinary event.

This belief in the phantom North Idaho cult persisted for about a year, and was popular with some local religious groups in Northwest Montana, but it gradually faded away without actually being debunked.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Baruch on June 02, 2018, 11:11:06 AM
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I remember years ago, a nice guy who liked perpetuating rumors of Satanic cults, just as Hydra described.  This guy told me of  some cult over in Northern Idaho that would abduct victims in the middle night by forming a human chain across a lonely stretch of highway, and take the passengers off to be used in sacrificial rituals.

It was quite a chilling description, and it was a time when communes were not uncommon, some with a religious overtones, so it was possible to believe that there was some strange group living back in the woods of isolated North Idaho.  There no doubt were, but that they were sacrificing humans without the knowledge of the law stretches the imagination.

This guy explained it with remarkable calm while I had chills running up my spine.  Later, I learned in psychology that a common give away of delusional behavior is the delusional person often describes the most extraordinary delusion in a detached manner, as if the delusion was just an ordinary event.

This belief in the phantom North Idaho cult persisted for about a year, and was popular with some local religious groups in Northwest Montana, but it gradually faded away without actually being debunked.

There were a lot of "deprogramming" memes and "Satanic cult" memes in the 80s.  Where are they now?  Of course Jim Jones was real, and there were and still are Nazis living in N Idaho.  So true and not true.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Hydra009 on June 02, 2018, 06:40:25 PM
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I'd wish I could be around hundreds of years into the future to see how people refer back to us.  I wouldn't be surprised to hear them say, "Those people during the Millennium believed in demons and witches and Satanic cults that called upon the Devil to wreck havoc on society."  In fact, they would be right because some did.  I'm thinking there were also doubters back in the 12th century who we fail to give credit to.  I'd speculate that superstition was more the norm than it is today, but the human species still seems very primitive to me.
There undoubtedly were.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Meslier comes readily to mind.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Baruch on June 03, 2018, 08:34:40 AM
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There undoubtedly were.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Meslier comes readily to mind.

Clergy generally are, as being more educated on religion, more likely to be atheist, agnostic or heretic.
Title: Re: How the Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
Post by: Cavebear on June 05, 2018, 04:34:06 AM
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I remember years ago, a nice guy who liked perpetuating rumors of Satanic cults, just as Hydra described.  This guy told me of  some cult over in Northern Idaho that would abduct victims in the middle night by forming a human chain across a lonely stretch of highway, and take the passengers off to be used in sacrificial rituals.

It was quite a chilling description, and it was a time when communes were not uncommon, some with a religious overtones, so it was possible to believe that there was some strange group living back in the woods of isolated North Idaho.  There no doubt were, but that they were sacrificing humans without the knowledge of the law stretches the imagination.

This guy explained it with remarkable calm while I had chills running up my spine.  Later, I learned in psychology that a common give away of delusional behavior is the delusional person often describes the most extraordinary delusion in a detached manner, as if the delusion was just an ordinary event.

This belief in the phantom North Idaho cult persisted for about a year, and was popular with some local religious groups in Northwest Montana, but it gradually faded away without actually being debunked.

Some groups like that do exist.  10 kids locked up in a basement, multiple girls "married" to older adult males, women enslaved as cleaning servants...