I think Rob Bell makes a good distinction in this video of Christians who say they take the Bible literally and those who interpret the Bible in different contexts. I agree with Bell that people who say they take it literally appear to be trying to demonstrate their seriousness and devotion. I certainly see the value in taking meaning from stories in the Bible, as a non-Christian I can do that, but I still have a problem with the Bible as a sacred text. I find some of the teachings of the Bible to be bad ideas, and not just individual stories but foundational elements. The Bible for me is like any other collection of stories, some I find meaningful and some I don't.
https://youtu.be/k4GjGwjssVQ
Every christian ever: WHY NOT BOTH?
every time the bible says something that makes sense ITS LITERAL and because ITS LITERALLY describing reality that proves its GODS WORD bro. every time the bible says something that makes no sense, or is downright offensive to any moral persons sensibilities? ugh dude dont take it LITERAL bro thats so philosophically immature of you bro its a METAPHOR the bibles has lots of them because its for SMART PEOPLE like me who can divine info from figurative language bro.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on May 09, 2018, 11:34:15 AM
I think Rob Bell makes a good distinction in this video of Christians who say they take the Bible literally and those who interpret the Bible in different contexts. I agree will Bell that people who say they take it literally appear to be trying to demonstrate their seriousness and devotion. I certainly see the value in taking meaning from stories in the Bible, as a non-Christian I can do that, but I still have a problem with the Bible as a sacred text. I find some of the teachings of the Bible to be bad ideas, and not just individual stories but foundational elements. The Bible for me is like any other collection of stories, some I find meaningful and some I don't.
https://youtu.be/k4GjGwjssVQ
If you disagree with a single comma of the Holy Bible, thou art a blasphemer and shall surely burn in Hell Forever After. Never mind that it has been translated by inexpert people many times, the Word Of God In The Current Version Is True And Beyond Question!
Heh-heh...
Quote from: Gilgamesh on May 09, 2018, 11:39:57 AM
Every christian ever: WHY NOT BOTH?
every time the bible says something that makes sense ITS LITERAL and because ITS LITERALLY describing reality that proves its GODS WORD bro. every time the bible says something that makes no sense, or is downright offensive to any moral persons sensibilities? ugh dude dont take it LITERAL bro thats so philosophically immature of you bro its a METAPHOR the bibles has lots of them because its for SMART PEOPLE like me who can divine info from figurative language bro.
So, when the bible makes sense it is literal. Does that mean when it doesn't it is metaphorical? To you, probably. To mean, knowing it was all written WAY after the alleged events by crazed fanatics, I can only laugh. And I will...
LOLOLOLOLOLOL!
Quote from: Gilgamesh on May 09, 2018, 11:39:57 AM
dude dont take it LITERAL bro thats so philosophically immature of you bro its a METAPHOR the bibles has lots of them because its for SMART PEOPLE like me who can divine info from figurative language bro.
The problem is even when smart people explain the metaphor, I often agree with their interpretation but disagree with the values and morals the story is demonstrating. Christian: "The real meaning is that if you truly repent, God will forgive you. God's love is limitless." Me: "Yeah, that entire concept is flawed."
Quote from: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 11:41:45 AM
If you disagree with a single comma of the Holy Bible, thou art a blasphemer and shall surely burn in Hell Forever After.
I've already RSVP'd.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on May 09, 2018, 12:04:18 PM
The problem is even when smart people explain the metaphor, I often agree with their interpretation but disagree with the values and morals the story is demonstrating. Christian: "The real meaning is that if you truly repent, God will forgive you. God's love is limitless." Me: "Yeah, that entire concept is flawed."
I've already RSVP'd.
RSVP, Meet you "wherever" and I mean that metaphorically, since we won't. The parts of the bible that crack me up are the parts the theists never mention.
If there weren't Christians who took the people literally, I probably would have the same amount of curiosity and respect for the Bible that I have for Greek myths. When you don't claim Zeus to be the ultimate, unquestionable authority, the stories where he acts like an asshole are just stories. I think early Christianity was not meant to treat the stories of Jesus so literally either. Many scholars believe that the earliest written Gospel, Mark, was a fictional story for a mystery religion. Mystery religions were all about hidden knowledge, where those on the inside understand the true meaning of their stories. It was the later Gospels which tried to "correct" Mark by adding details to make it more believable, correcting (or attempting to correct) historically inaccurate details. This does explain quite a lot. For example, when Jesus curses the fig tree, that makes no sense from a literal point of view. Jesus finds a tree which is not in season and he curses it when he finds no fruit on it. But if you read it as figurative, the story makes total sense. In the story, Jesus curses the tree just before entering Jerusalem. Then after Jesus leaves Jerusalem, the disciples see that the tree has shriveled up. The tree was Jerusalem.
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 09, 2018, 12:18:22 PM
If there weren't Christians who took the people literally, I probably would have the same amount of curiosity and respect for the Bible that I have for Greek myths. When you don't claim Zeus to be the ultimate, unquestionable authority, the stories where he acts like an asshole are just stories. I think early Christianity was not meant to treat the stories of Jesus so literally either. Many scholars believe that the earliest written Gospel, Mark, was a fictional story for a mystery religion. Mystery religions were all about hidden knowledge, where those on the inside understand the true meaning of their stories. It was the later Gospels which tried to "correct" Mark by adding details to make it more believable, correcting (or attempting to correct) historically inaccurate details. This does explain quite a lot. For example, when Jesus curses the fig tree, that makes no sense from a literal point of view. Jesus finds a tree which is not in season and he curses it when he finds no fruit on it. But if you read it as figurative, the story makes total sense. In the story, Jesus curses the tree just before entering Jerusalem. Then after Jesus leaves Jerusalem, the disciples see that the tree has shriveled up. The tree was Jerusalem.
Mind twins! Almost, anyway. I take it step further and say the events never happened, there not actually being a historical Jesus, just a composite of various Jewish messiahs.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on May 09, 2018, 12:04:18 PM
The problem is even when smart people explain the metaphor, I often agree with their interpretation but disagree with the values and morals the story is demonstrating. Christian: "The real meaning is that if you truly repent, God will forgive you. God's love is limitless." Me: "Yeah, that entire concept is flawed."
I've already RSVP'd.
Smart readers know that the patriarchs and matriarchs aren't to be imitated. Why? They aren't paragons of virtue. Adam and Eve got expelled from Paradise for good reason (double entendre). Noah got drunk after the Flood and was exposed by his grandson. Abraham was nearly impotent and lied about his first wife's status to save his own life, and nearly sacrificed his first born son, and then expelled his second wife and first son, to please his first wife Sarah, who wanted her rivals dead. Lot offered his daughters to the depraved Sodomites, who then had sex with him afterward. Issac preferred Esau over Jacob. Rebecca preferred Jacob over Esau. Jacob robbed his brother's birthright and deceived his father-in-law Laban (who wasn't nice either). Jacob wasn't equally loving to his 4 wives and preferred just two children against the others. Jacob's sons massacred the people of Shechem. Those same sons nearly killed their brother Joseph. Esau despised his parents (before Jacob robbed him). Judah had mistaken prostitute sex with his daughter in law. And that is just Genesis! For me, the only admirable person was Joseph, but he was a dick to his murderous brothers ... so not as vengeful as he could have been.
Smart rabbis say ... read this ... but it is a warning what not to do. The Medieval rabbis realized from this that polygamy was a bad idea.
Quote from: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 12:15:07 PM
RSVP, Meet you "wherever" and I mean that metaphorically, since we won't. The parts of the bible that crack me up are the parts the theists never mention.
Well, as Mark Twain said, "It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand."
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 09, 2018, 12:18:22 PM
For example, when Jesus curses the fig tree, that makes no sense from a literal point of view. Jesus finds a tree which is not in season and he curses it when he finds no fruit on it. But if you read it as figurative, the story makes total sense. In the story, Jesus curses the tree just before entering Jerusalem. Then after Jesus leaves Jerusalem, the disciples see that the tree has shriveled up. The tree was Jerusalem.
I've also read that the fig was the symbol of a rival cult, that of Mithras, and so cursing the fig tree was a symbol of Christianity's conquest of that cult. There may have been multiple meanings, since those mystery cults had several layers for the initiates to pass through.
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 09, 2018, 01:45:05 PM
Well, as Mark Twain said, "It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand."
Mr Clemens had a fine mind's eye for details of subtle thought.
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 09, 2018, 01:52:07 PM
I've also read that the fig was the symbol of a rival cult, that of Mithras, and so cursing the fig tree was a symbol of Christianity's conquest of that cult. There may have been multiple meanings, since those mystery cults had several layers for the initiates to pass through.
I did not remember the cursing of the fig tree, but given the similarities between Mithraism and Christianity origin myths, and the way christians strove mightily to take over religious holidays, origins, and symbols as they spread (I will forebear saying "like vermin") I am not surprised.
Quote from: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 01:53:56 PM
Mr Clemens had a fine mind's eye for details of subtle thought.
I'm related to Samuel Clemens. It's probably my only connection to anyone famous.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on May 09, 2018, 02:02:28 PM
I'm related to Samuel Clemens. It's probably my only connection to anyone famous.
Well, you sure have an impressive ancestor. The best I have is (maybe, by family lore) is Barbara Feldon from "Get Smart" Can't prove it, but the claim is that my great-great-grandmothers were sisters.
As if that matters for anything...
Wow, that came out of left field! Barbara Feldon was one of the prettiest ladies ever, and a really funny actress, too. Her character (agent 99) on that show was awesome!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6i3rMt0Io8
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 09, 2018, 02:44:49 PM
Wow, that came out of left field! Barbara Feldon was one of the prettiest ladies ever, and a really funny actress, too. Her character (agent 99) on that show was awesome!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6i3rMt0Io8
Thank you! I was 15 when Get Smart arrived. Agent 99 taught me (among a few other female stars at the time) that women were capable, intelligent, and determined. Hey, I WAS only 15. I never forgot that though. Agent 99 was always the "smart" side of the duo, and I learned to love that. When I started a career, I assumed the same from my female co-workers. And that mattered to me.
Quote from: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 02:38:55 PM
Well, you sure have an impressive ancestor.
It's by marriage, so it isn't like I have literary blood in my veins.
Complete tangent: Because of this conversation I went to my filing cabinet to look at my family history. In the folder I found my father's baby book which I thought I had accidentally given away in a box of books several years ago. He was born in 1923 and the book documented his growth chart, photos, first words and such. I was absolutely sick I had lost it and I'm so happy to have found it! Thanks to Unbeliever for quoting Mark Twain.
Hey, glad I could be of service!
Quote from: GSOgymrat on May 09, 2018, 03:10:52 PM
It's by marriage, so it isn't like I have literary blood in my veins.
Complete tangent: Because of this conversation I went to my filing cabinet to look at my family history. In the folder I found my father's baby book which I thought I had accidentally given away in a box of books several years ago. He was born in 1923 and the book documented his growth chart, photos, first words and such. I was absolutely sick I had lost it and I'm so happy to have found it! Thanks to Unbeliever for quoting Mark Twain.
Sometimes the value in these discussion boards is the subjects being discussed. Sometimes it is the connections we make in our minds, I'm glad that anything here led you to such a connection. I'm working on a family genealogy based on what my Dad left me for records a few years before he died in 2014 at 92.
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 09, 2018, 01:52:07 PM
I've also read that the fig was the symbol of a rival cult, that of Mithras, and so cursing the fig tree was a symbol of Christianity's conquest of that cult. There may have been multiple meanings, since those mystery cults had several layers for the initiates to pass through.
My grandfather was a Shriner ... y'all don't know nuttin.
On the topic of the Bible, I just finished listening to a podcast with Sam Harris and Bart Ehrmin. As a non-Christian, I found it very educational.
https://samharris.org/podcasts/what-is-christianity/
In this episode of the Waking Up podcast, Sam Harris speaks to Bart Ehrman about his experience of being a born-again Christian, his academic training in New Testament scholarship, his loss of faith, the most convincing argument in defense of Christianity, the status of miracles, the composition of the New Testament, the resurrection of Jesus, the nature of heaven and hell, the book of Revelation, the End Times, self-contradictions in the Bible, the concept of a messiah, whether Jesus actually existed, Christianity as a cult of human sacrifice, the conversion of Constantine, and other topics.
Bart D. Ehrman is the author or editor of more than thirty books, including the New York Times bestsellers Misquoting Jesus and How Jesus Became God. Ehrman is a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, and a leading authority on the New Testament and the history of early Christianity. He has been featured in Time, The New Yorker, and The Washington Post, and has appeared on NBC, CNN, The Daily Show with Jon Stewart, The History Channel, National Geographic, BBC, major NPR shows, and other top print and broadcast media outlets. His most recent book is The Triumph of Christianity.
Ehrman is very good, at least with the post-Constantine period.
Quote from book review of "How Jesus Became God"
"Only when some of Jesus’s followers had visions of him after his deathâ€"alive againâ€"did anyone come to think that he, the prophet from Galilee, had become God. And what they meant by that was not at all what people mean today."
Quote from: GSOgymrat on May 10, 2018, 04:33:41 PM
On the topic of the Bible, I just finished listening to a podcast with Sam Harris and Bart Ehrmin. As a non-Christian, I found it very educational.
https://samharris.org/podcasts/what-is-christianity/
In this episode of the Waking Up podcast, Sam Harris speaks to Bart Ehrman about his experience of being a born-again Christian, his academic training in New Testament scholarship, his loss of faith, the most convincing argument in defense of Christianity, the status of miracles, the composition of the New Testament, the resurrection of Jesus, the nature of heaven and hell, the book of Revelation, the End Times, self-contradictions in the Bible, the concept of a messiah, whether Jesus actually existed, Christianity as a cult of human sacrifice, the conversion of Constantine, and other topics.
Bart D. Ehrman is the author or editor of more than thirty books, including the New York Times bestsellers Misquoting Jesus and How Jesus Became God. Ehrman is a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, and a leading authority on the New Testament and the history of early Christianity. He has been featured in Time, The New Yorker, and The Washington Post, and has appeared on NBC, CNN, The Daily Show with Jon Stewart, The History Channel, National Geographic, BBC, major NPR shows, and other top print and broadcast media outlets. His most recent book is The Triumph of Christianity.
From my readings, if you are arguing against Sam Harris, you are likely to be very wrong.
Quote from: Cavebear on May 12, 2018, 04:59:44 AM
From my readings, if you are arguing against Sam Harris, you are likely to be very wrong.
We all have favorite speakers. But it isn't idolatry to favor someone (that is GIA's misuse of English). Hero-worshipping in fact. But all hero's have clay feet.
Yeah, I had a hero sandwich with clay feet just the other day...it was kind of gritty.
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 12, 2018, 02:08:26 PM
Yeah, I had a hero sandwich with clay feet just the other day...it was kind of gritty.
That actually happens. My best HS friend and I ate at a seafood restaurant, next to the movie theater, before seeing Star Wars for the first time (and second time, we snuck into the second showing and didn't pay). My friend ordered clams, but they forgot to take the sand out ... food fail! I am guilty of laughing at that, at the time.
Quote from: Blackleaf on May 09, 2018, 12:18:22 PM
Many scholars believe that the earliest written Gospel, Mark, was a fictional story for a mystery religion. Mystery religions were all about hidden knowledge, where those on the inside understand the true meaning of their stories.
And they are still inventing them, Scientology, phrenology, numerology, and the Masons. People love mystery, magic spells, and being a part of the in group. I was into magic spells until I was around six. I didn't believe in them exactly, but I used to wish they were real. Because they're fun. Most people gain a modicum of belief and respect for reality as they grow older, but not completely. There's that longing for magic just below the surface waiting to be rekindled, and when some charismatic charlatan like Joseph Smith, Deepak Chopra, or just an ordinary hometown pastor down the street shows up and tells people it's OK to believe in magic there's a seductive tendency already wired into our brains. Because it's fun.
Quote from: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 03:05:39 PM
Agent 99 taught me (among a few other female stars at the time) that women were capable, intelligent, and determined. Agent 99 was always the "smart" side of the duo
But she needed Max in order for her to be the smart one, which doesn't help the feminist cause much. My favorite stupid thing about that show was CONTROL's solution to the absolute need for strict secrecy, the seldom activated "cone of silence." I used to wait through several episodes wanting them to activate the "cone." I always knew what the outcome would be, but it never got old.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWtPPWi6OMQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsNR9FnxOdY
The Jehovah Witnesses have stopped banging on my door. I sat down and talked to them one day months ago and asked them if they had any proof there had actually been a Jesus at all. That shocked them. I haven't bothered to speak to one since. They left a silly pamphlet quoting the Bible once. so I used it to start my charcoal in the smoker grill.
Oh, good - everyone knows God loves the smell of cooking meat.
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 19, 2018, 02:03:47 PM
Oh, good - everyone knows God loves the smell of cooking meat.
Well, if its bacon...
He also likes the smell burning of long pig, that's why there were so many autos-da-fe back in the day.
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 19, 2018, 05:52:15 PM
He also likes the smell burning of long pig, that's why there were so many autos-da-fe back in the day.
Auto-de-whew?. That's like long pig stew, right? A little garlic, a stone, a carrot... pretty soon you have a good soup for granny. Wait, where's Granny?
Granny "I'm not dead yet"...
THUMP!
well when you put it that way, I guess those Levi priests werent all that dumb... bbq meat everyday
Quote from: fencerider on May 28, 2018, 03:25:13 PM
well when you put it that way, I guess those Levi priests werent all that dumb... bbq meat everyday
And that is the corruption, of the son's of Levi, that brought down the curse of Adonai ... paleo-diet ;-) But at least the meat was kosher. Boiled and salted meat mostly (not BBQ) with the blood drained first. The stuff on the fire was for Adonai. Pagan priests may have roasted their meat, when they weren't eating it "tartar". So BBQ is actually blasphemy in Judaism ;-)
Here is an ancient Greek joke ... in mythology, when animal sacrifice was invented, Prometheus (the Titan) that created mankind and provide them with fire, instructed them on the smart way to feed the gods. So basically Prometheus (foresight) arranged a trick. Two piles of animal sacrifice were provided for Zeus to choose from. He had the human cover good meat with skins, and cover bones with the animal fat. Zeus wanted high calories ... so he chose the appetizing looking pile (who wants to eat cracklins (fried pork skin) unless you are Texan, right?). So turned out, the priests (and the contributors of the sacrificial animal) got the better deal, and Zeus had one more reason to eternally persecute Prometheus.
Zeus (aka Dios in PIE) doesn't like foresight, he likes hindsight (Epimetheus, the brother of Prometheus). Zeus invented woman, gave her to Epimetheus, along with the Pandora's box of wedding gifts. Zeus warned Epimetheus about having Pandora not open the box, but he knew that Epimetheus would forget, and Pandora's curiosity would get the better of her.
Quote from: Baruch on May 28, 2018, 05:15:18 PM
And that is the corruption, of the son's of Levi, that brought down the curse of Adonai ... paleo-diet ;-) But at least the meat was kosher. Boiled and salted meat mostly (not BBQ) with the blood drained first. The stuff on the fire was for Adonai. Pagan priests may have roasted their meat, when they weren't eating it "tartar". So BBQ is actually blasphemy in Judaism ;-)
Here is an ancient Greek joke ... in mythology, when animal sacrifice was invented, Prometheus (the Titan) that created mankind and provide them with fire, instructed them on the smart way to feed the gods. So basically Prometheus (foresight) arranged a trick. Two piles of animal sacrifice were provided for Zeus to choose from. He had the human cover good meat with skins, and cover bones with the animal fat. Zeus wanted high calories ... so he chose the appetizing looking pile (who wants to eat cracklins (fried pork skin) unless you are Texan, right?). So turned out, the priests (and the contributors of the sacrificial animal) got the better deal, and Zeus had one more reason to eternally persecute Prometheus.
Zeus (aka Dios in PIE) doesn't like foresight, he likes hindsight (Epimetheus, the brother of Prometheus). Zeus invented woman, gave her to Epimetheus, along with the Pandora's box of wedding gifts. Zeus warned Epimetheus about having Pandora not open the box, but he knew that Epimetheus would forget, and Pandora's curiosity would get the better of her.
That is one of the most informed, yet least applicable argruments I have ever seen. Congratulations...
You never cease to amaze me with both information AND lack of applicabilty at the same time!
Quote from: Cavebear on May 29, 2018, 06:17:37 AM
That is one of the most informed, yet least applicable argruments I have ever seen. Congratulations...
You never cease to amaze me with both information AND lack of applicabilty at the same time!
My connections to circumstances are tenuous but profound. Poetic license. If I were to rebut everything in a literal manner, word by word, with full footnotes, I would be like Young Frankenstein, one our other posters, dealing with Xero's latest screed.