http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2018/05/08/sweden-allows-mosque-to-call-for-prayer-in-controversial-move.html (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2018/05/08/sweden-allows-mosque-to-call-for-prayer-in-controversial-move.html)
It's in the city Växjö, there's a better article on BT.dk, but that's in Danish so I'll spare you that one (https://www.bt.dk/udland/klar-laest-svensk-moske-faar-omstridt-tilladelse-maa-kalde-til-boen-over).
Basically they applied to be able to broadcast (under 110db) a call to prayer once a week between 13:00 and 13:03 and it's valid for one year. This is the 3rd similar license that has been given, elsewhere in the country.
Since it's just once a week I don't see the big deal, plus they've gotten a license for this from the Swedish police.
Noise pollution, and non-Muslims have a right to not be offended ;-)
I'm not familiar with a call to prayer. Is this significantly different than church bells?
Quote from: GSOgymrat on May 08, 2018, 12:47:19 PM
I'm not familiar with a call to prayer. Is this significantly different than church bells?
Much louder ... and usually the sound system used is poor (at least in poor countries). A human calling it out is melodic and pleasant to my ears.
Quote from: Baruch on May 08, 2018, 12:49:02 PM
Much louder ... and usually the sound system used is poor (at least in poor countries). A talented human calling it out is melodic and pleasant to my ears.
110 decibels is pretty loud ...
http://www.hearnet.com/at_risk/risk_trivia.shtml
And yes, some people object to any noise, including lawn mowers.
Here, you'll love it. Especially at 4 AM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlLaUCAQlQQ
I would find it annoying, but I could handle it. If I had total control I would forbid it. I do not find it pleasant or melodic. It just sounds like another wacko with a loud speaker to me.
I've heard better. Jewish cantors fall in love with their own voice too, but they sing indoors.
It was much easier in pre-modern times ... there were small mosques everywhere, not giant ones, and the muezzin could do his job without amplification.
If they allow churches other than the Church of Sweden to ring their bells for services, I don't see how they can prohibit it. And it seems a reasonable compromise -- they're only issuing one call in the middle of the day once a week, not all five from dawn to dusk every day.
Quote from: Sal1981 on May 08, 2018, 12:37:14 PM
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2018/05/08/sweden-allows-mosque-to-call-for-prayer-in-controversial-move.html (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2018/05/08/sweden-allows-mosque-to-call-for-prayer-in-controversial-move.html)
It's in the city Växjö, there's a better article on BT.dk, but that's in Danish so I'll spare you that one (https://www.bt.dk/udland/klar-laest-svensk-moske-faar-omstridt-tilladelse-maa-kalde-til-boen-over).
Basically they applied to be able to broadcast (under 110db) a call to prayer once a week between 13:00 and 13:03 and it's valid for one year. This is the 3rd similar license that has been given, elsewhere in the country.
Since it's just once a week I don't see the big deal, plus they've gotten a license for this from the Swedish police.
Is it a noise issue or a religious one? It makes a difference if considered objectively. If there was some atheist HQ next to me and they insisted on playing some loud noise of any kind, I would object as much.
Quote from: trdsf on May 09, 2018, 01:16:25 AM
If they allow churches other than the Church of Sweden to ring their bells for services, I don't see how they can prohibit it. And it seems a reasonable compromise -- they're only issuing one call in the middle of the day once a week, not all five from dawn to dusk every day.
Most churches only ring once a week. Monasteries would ring more than once a day "office of the hours" which is why early mechanical clocks were invented. To synchronize the monks, not the military.
Rightly so. The precedent is set. Clever lot.
(The camel's foot in the tent.)
After permission in Växjö, Swedish Muslims now want to send calls to prayer all over the country (https://voiceofeurope.com/2018/05/after-permission-in-vaxjo-swedish-muslims-now-want-to-send-calls-to-prayer-all-over-the-country/)
QuoteGetting permission for the call to prayer in Växjö was just the beginning for Sweden’s Muslims. While a clear majority of Swedes are against broadcasting the Call to Prayer, Muslims now seem to want them all over the country, Fria Tider reports.
Avdi Islami, spokesman of Växjö’s Muslim Foundation, explains that he wants more mosques to do the same as in Växjö and apply for permission for prayer calls, so that the Muslim message can be heard across the country.
“We want to call out at more places. There are many Muslims who are Swedish citizens, who have the same rights as everyone else,†he says.
At the same time, Islami says the intention is not to “disturb†anyone. According to him, however, Sweden must respect that people have “different messagesâ€. He denies that Swedes fear that Islam is now spreading in the country.
Today there are Calls to Prayer in three places in Sweden â€" Karlskrona, Fittja and now last in Växjö. On Tuesday, the police announced that they accepted Växjö Muslim’s application to send prayer calls via speakers at the local mosque once a week, every Friday.
Quote from: pr126 on May 12, 2018, 10:55:52 PM
Rightly so. The precedent is set. Clever lot.
Certainly. No one should be surprised. Muslim leaders would call the flock to prayer daily everywhere if they are allowed and will continue to press for more obedience and conformity among their following. It's a religion. Duh?! And it's also a political system seeking control of the governing body, because that's what religious political systems are designed to do. Put the two together and you get a theocracy, a politically controlling religion with cult origins that demands rigid conformity. And even where they become a philosophical majority, they whine for more conformity and lust to control.
You don't have to go to Europe to see it happen. Come to the US to watch Christianity struggling to gain control of the government and to enact governmental regulation of non Christians rights. George Bush pushed for a Constitutional amendment to prevent gays from getting married. Christianity has installed many political leaders who want even more. A seat in the Supreme Court when Republicans are in control requires strict religious indoctrination. Don't bother to apply otherwise. There are good reasons to fear political power from dominant religions. All lust for restrictions of freedom.
I think Christianity is dying out. At least in Europe.
Even the pope is Marxist and globalist. He is fine with Islam.
Pope Francis washes the feet of Muslim migrants, says we are ‘children of the same God’ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/03/25/children-of-the-same-god-pope-francis-washes-the-feet-of-muslim-migrants/)
Children of the same [schizophrenic] god. Really?
Pope says migrants' rights should override national security concerns (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-migrants-pope-idUSKCN1B11RX)
In the USA:
https://brightthemag.com/what-are-american-churches-doing-to-help-refugees-d2641de62ee6
https://www.timesofisrael.com/most-religious-groups-come-out-against-trump-refugee-order/
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/more-than-500-evangelical-leaders-sign-letter-decrying-trumps-refugee-ban_us_589b5c9ae4b04061313adf83
Because there is money to be had for refugee resettlement.
Sweden: Church calls forbidden in town were mosque is allowed to air 110dB Islamic call to prayer (https://voiceofeurope.com/2018/05/sweden-church-calls-forbidden-in-town-were-mosque-is-allowed-to-air-110db-islamic-call-to-prayer/)
QuoteThursday we’ve reported on that the mosque in Sweden’s Växjö received permission to broadcast their call to prayer. But when the St. Michael’s Church applied for a wake-up call for church services in the same city, they received a ‘no’, newspaper Smålandsposten reports.
According to priest Ingvar Fogelqvist, the town rejected his requests to ring the bell because the sound of it could “disturb the areaâ€. Fogelqvist’s requests were two times rejected two times: In the 1990s and again in the early 2000s.
He believes that the ringing is a nice old Christian tradition that his church would like to be able to use and it “would make the Catholic Church a bit more visible here in the communityâ€.
After the local mosque is now allowed to broadcast its 110 decibels Calls to Prayer, the church may now apply to ring bells outside. Fogelqvist tells Metro newspaper:
“It is a matter of fairness and with the decision granting the mosque permission to do a call to prayer, we have discussed the possibility of applying again.â€
Outside of the US, you have no civil rights (the owners won't permit it). This is also true in the US, only we are less honest about it.
Quote from: pr126 on May 14, 2018, 09:45:16 AM
Sweden: Church calls forbidden in town were mosque is allowed to air 110dB Islamic call to prayer (https://voiceofeurope.com/2018/05/sweden-church-calls-forbidden-in-town-were-mosque-is-allowed-to-air-110db-islamic-call-to-prayer/)
Vaxjo Cathedral, on the other hand
Vaxjo Cathedral (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WrJ7BZDj40),
They got a license, it's only once a week, and overall quite above the board. I don't see how this is controversial.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on May 14, 2018, 10:58:12 PM
They got a license, it's only once a week, and overall quite above the board. I don't see how this is controversial.
Pr126 thinks it is discriminatory. Another provided evidence it isn't.
One rule to apply to all equally, and that rule also be not breaking decibel norms for the community.
"Thou shalt NOT make noise beyond your property lines... "
(Unless you are mowing your lawn in daytime)
Quote from: Cavebear on May 17, 2018, 02:35:10 AM
One rule to apply to all equally, and that rule also be not breaking decibel norms for the community.
"Thou shalt NOT make noise beyond your property lines... "
(Unless you are mowing your lawn in daytime)
Generally I would agree, but given current Muslim practice, it would get your head cut off. Also all Muslims are special, so the laws don't apply to them, only to Dhimmis and Infidels.
Quote from: Baruch on May 17, 2018, 07:40:48 AM
Generally I would agree, but given current Muslim practice, it would get your head cut off. Also all Muslims are special, so the laws don't apply to them, only to Dhimmis and Infidels.
This is not strictly a Muslim thing. You can replace "Muslim" with "Christian", and "Christian" with "Self righteous," and it still works. The West sees Islam as a religion that takes special privilege to a fanatical extreme, probably because it looks like it does, but it's just the old in-group majority pushing itself on everyone else, punctuated with occasional short episodes of cruel and unusual violence against imagined offenses.
Quote from: SGOS on May 17, 2018, 08:08:56 AM
This is not strictly a Muslim thing. You can replace "Muslim" with "Christian", and "Christian" with "Self righteous," and it still works. The West sees Islam as a religion that takes special privilege to a fanatical extreme, probably because it looks like it does, but it's just the old in-group majority pushing itself on everyone else, punctuated with occasional short episodes of cruel and unusual violence against imagined offenses.
Now I agree that any religious groups are like that, it can't be ignored the fact that a secular society has formed in countries there christian theocracy was once the ruling school of thought, but has died down now over the centuries for a secular way of living, where as in the middle east its theocracy is very much the only thing that matters and defying it is meet with death penalty in some of them.
Its why atheism has becomes so much more prevalent in western countries because once Christianity was a governing force and ruled for so long, when it finally settled down and the populations grew, education, industry, it allowed said societies to function without the need for the religious rules, and with government calling the shots, not deified leaders, it allowed for non religious systems to grow, and why we aren't just atheists now, but can be so without fear of death here.
I think, the biggest problem this creates is in a secular country, belief systems are a mixed bag and anyone can believe what they want. But when a large body of one such theocratic followers comes a knocking, in its unified belief, theres a risk of takeover, since the people already in the secular country aren't governed by an insane theocratic system themselves. And religion does indeed make people on mass into a stampede of drooling baboons.
This is why Christianity was able to wipe out so many smaller religious systems like ancient greek or northern European ones.
Europe was under Roman occupation. When the emperor said ... be Christian, it wasn't a suggestion. When King Clovis in early France converted to Catholicism, and suppressed both the pagans and the Arian Christians ... it was because he carried a big stick. Very few people after 325 converted voluntarily. Of course there had always been and continued to be ... door to door Watchtower salesmen ;-) Without the Roman empire ... and a State run church, people would have continued as they had been, some people coming into the churches, other people leaving. Freedom.
Quote from: SGOS on May 17, 2018, 08:08:56 AM
This is not strictly a Muslim thing. You can replace "Muslim" with "Christian", and "Christian" with "Self righteous," and it still works. The West sees Islam as a religion that takes special privilege to a fanatical extreme, probably because it looks like it does, but it's just the old in-group majority pushing itself on everyone else, punctuated with occasional short episodes of cruel and unusual violence against imagined offenses.
Well, in the sense of making a lot of noise about their "call to prayers" , Moslems do.
Quote from: Cavebear on May 19, 2018, 02:40:22 AM
Well, in the sense of making a lot of noise about their "call to prayers" , Moslems do.
I appreciate the pun, so don't think I missed it, but like Christians that want shove their religion in everyone else's faces, Muslims probably justify their actions as "good for others" as well.
Quote from: SGOS on May 19, 2018, 05:59:00 AM
I appreciate the pun, so don't think I missed it, but like Christians that want shove their religion in everyone else's faces, Muslims probably justify their actions as "good for others" as well.
I need the noise from neither. It is as if I stood at my property line in Summer and soaked everyone passing by with my garden hose "because I thought it good for them to be cooled down (whether they wanted it of not)". I mean after all, I knew what was best for them, how could they object?
Quote from: Cavebear on May 19, 2018, 07:49:09 AM
I need the noise from neither. It is as if I stood at my property line in Summer and soaked everyone passing by with my garden hose "because I thought it good for them to be cooled down (whether they wanted it of not)". I mean after all, I knew what was best for them, how could they object?
Evangelists and do gooders have been doing this since Buddha. Socrates was just helping out, by pointing out to you that he is a genius and you are an idiot.
Quote from: Munch on May 17, 2018, 09:50:11 AM
Now I agree that any religious groups are like that, it can't be ignored the fact that a secular society has formed in countries there christian theocracy was once the ruling school of thought, but has died down now over the centuries for a secular way of living, where as in the middle east its theocracy is very much the only thing that matters and defying it is meet with death penalty in some of them.
Its why atheism has becomes so much more prevalent in western countries because once Christianity was a governing force and ruled for so long, when it finally settled down and the populations grew, education, industry, it allowed said societies to function without the need for the religious rules, and with government calling the shots, not deified leaders, it allowed for non religious systems to grow, and why we aren't just atheists now, but can be so without fear of death here.
I think, the biggest problem this creates is in a secular country, belief systems are a mixed bag and anyone can believe what they want. But when a large body of one such theocratic followers comes a knocking, in its unified belief, theres a risk of takeover, since the people already in the secular country aren't governed by an insane theocratic system themselves. And religion does indeed make people on mass into a stampede of drooling baboons.
This is why Christianity was able to wipe out so many smaller religious systems like ancient greek or northern European ones.
(bold mine]
a thousand years ago, this was the case in Faroe Islands, where Christianity converted in the way of the sword; either you converted to Christianity or you got your head lopped off. Before that, the old Nordic gods were worshiped.
Quote from: Sal1981 on May 22, 2018, 06:54:01 AM
(bold mine]
a thousand years ago, this was the case in Faroe Islands, where Christianity converted in the way of the sword; either you converted to Christianity or you got your head lopped off. Before that, the old Nordic gods were worshiped.
Yeah those Christians sure were reprobates too. Its not like I have love for them either.
Quote from: Sal1981 on May 22, 2018, 06:54:01 AM
(bold mine]
a thousand years ago, this was the case in Faroe Islands, where Christianity converted in the way of the sword; either you converted to Christianity or you got your head lopped off. Before that, the old Nordic gods were worshiped.
Yes, Scandinavians, so socialist, so pacifist. What is the true continuity? Then and now they are bat shit crazy. Berzerkers.