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News & General Discussion => News Stories and Current Events => Topic started by: Shiranu on May 05, 2018, 11:32:40 AM

Title: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Shiranu on May 05, 2018, 11:32:40 AM
http://www.newsweek.com/high-school-students-confusion-about-slavery-797707 (http://www.newsweek.com/high-school-students-confusion-about-slavery-797707)


QuoteThe history of slavery in America continues to be inadequately taught in schools nationwide â€" a reality that's causing damaging ramifications on student learning and present day racial tensions, according to a recently released report.

"Teaching Hard History: American Slavery," released by the Southern Poverty Law Center on Thursday, revealed that only 8 percent of 1,000 surveyed high school seniors identified slavery as a central cause of the Civil War. Further, only 22 percent knew protections for slavery were included in the Constitution and just 39 percent correctly acknowledged that slavery shaped the fundamental American beliefs about race.

There were no cases where more than two-thirds of students answered the same question correctly, according to the report.


Great work, America. Great work.

Also, there was just recently an article about how only something like a third of students could tell you what the Holocaust about and even less could tell you what Auschwitz was.


Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Mr.Obvious on May 05, 2018, 11:50:10 AM
Tbh. While a Central cause, i've heard it wasn't 'The' Central cause.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 05, 2018, 12:04:13 PM
About 20 years ago, I first heard a rather odd twist in history:  "The Civil War was not about slavery.  It was about economics."  In a way, it's not too hard to believe that, because it's partially true.  At the time, the wealthy plantation owners were using the cheapest form of labor imaginable.  Without slavery, their profits would be reduced.  So economics?  Well, yeah, kind of.  I don't know who was behind promoting the perception.  I haven't heard that position voiced recently, but for a while it caught on, and I would guess still exists among some.  It's a clever sounding paradox kind of thing, and people seem to be drawn to clever paradox kind of things, maybe because it makes them feel thoughtful.

So it was about economics for some, but the much greater motivation for the Civil War was the inhumanity of slavery, the inhumanity of owning other humans, and forcing them to do anything you wished, while housing them in leaking dirt floored hovels and feeding them gruel and all the accepted beatings and cruelty associated with people being treated as private property.

I'm surprised it's no longer stressed in school.  It was when I was in school and the idea of the practice was horrifying.  But with time, we seem to forget the past.  We remember it as our past to an extent, but we disassociate ourselves from the worst parts of it.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Shiranu on May 05, 2018, 12:27:14 PM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on May 05, 2018, 11:50:10 AM
Tbh. While a Central cause, i've heard it wasn't 'The' Central cause.

That's thanks to some heavily revisionist history (the "Lost Cause of the Confederacy" strategy) pushed by several groups to portray the South as "noble"; one of the biggest of these is the Daughters of the Confederacy who have invested millions upon millions of dollars in rewriting textbooks and putting up monuments to Confederate leaders and soldiers to portray them as the "good guys just fighting for their state rights".

The problem is when you look at the text and speeches of Confederate leaders, you see it's 100% about slavery. For example, the declaration of war from South Carolina when they fired upon Fort Sumter...

(Note: Not trying to wall of text with these quotes; the paraphrased version of all of them is, "We began this war to defend the institution of slavery". You read one of them, you have pretty much read them all... it's just trying to show how adamant the Southern leaders were about it being about slavery.)

Quote...A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that “Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,” and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction. This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

Or Mississippi...

QuoteOur position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slaveryâ€"the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin…

Texas...

Quote...in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states....

As well as several other states.

You also had Jefferson Davis saying for years before the Civil War that, should abolition of slavery be implemented, the South would wage war upon the North. The Muskogee Herald ranted about how it was a bunch of egg-heads up North who wanted to destroy slavery and it would cause war.

Shit, the South even warned the North that they would never treat African Americans as equals because it would mean the destruction of the Southern way of life, and it's a promise they hold to this day...

QuoteThe slave-holder and non-­slave-holder must ultimately share the same fateâ€"all be degraded to a position of equality with free negroes, stand side by side with them at the polls, and fraternize in all the social relations of life; or else there will be an eternal war of races, desolating the land with blood, and utterly wasting and destroying all the resources of the country.

And finally there were plans by Southern states to expand into Central America and open new plantations there, which the abolition of slavery would put the brakes on.

I think it's a hard concept today to grasp, being 153 years removed from legalized slavery (which when you think about it, is not even the blink of an eye in historical terms and is practically yesterday), but the South's entire foundation was slavery... it's entire economy and social structure revolved around the system. So for the Southerners, it very much was the end of the world for them if slavery was abolished. The problem is that, spoiler alert, slavery was really fucking terrible and the Southerners in following generations wanted to make their ancestors look like decent human beings.

It is, to me, one of the most unique events in history... an instance where the loser of an extremely bloody war was the one who wrote history. I think one of Lincoln's biggest mistakes was believing that the Southern culture could be reasoned with and would eventually see things from a more civilized way, so he didn't punish them once the war ended. 153 years later, and the South is still fighting to this day that cultural battle.

These were men who took up arms against the government, who lead to 620,000 Americans being killed in their uprising against the government, and they were allowed to walk away scott free once they lost... and allowed to use the wealth they built on the backs of millions of  slaves to continue oppressing African Americans and to paint themselves as the "good guys" in the Civil War.

Again, it's actually quite fascinating to me. Horrifying, but fascinating.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Johan on May 05, 2018, 12:31:59 PM
I'd wager that only about 8% of high schoolers can identify how much 8% is.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 05, 2018, 03:33:39 PM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on May 05, 2018, 11:50:10 AM
Tbh. While a Central cause, i've heard it wasn't 'The' Central cause.

The Union (aka abolitionists from New England) were space aliens with a higher culture millennia ahead of other Americans).  Von Daniken says so.

The people who want to "guilt" the South, have a ready reason.  But war would have happened if no slaves existed.  Politics leads to war, and the South and North were at variance on a number of political issues, most importantly "nullification".  Lincoln said, he would stop the war, and leave slavery in place (to be removed by peaceful means) if the States would agree to not secede.  Even President Jackson, was ready to go to war with S Carolina over "nullification".  What that means is, is the Union, a union of the whole people or of the States.  If of the States, then State law can choose to ignore national law or supplement it.  Lincoln proved on the battlefield, after much difficulty, that "nullification" was wrong.  Democrats in California are bringing it up again, over immigration ... no slavery involved this time, just Democrats being rebels without a cause.  They are assuming that all illegal aliens will vote Democrat.  In the next century, after California is flattened ... people living there will be nut cases, claiming "California will rise again".

Marxists say, everything is about economics.  So the Marxists here, should agree with that particular spin ;-)  There were multiple reasons, but the Union isn't a bunch of saints.  They are assholes, same as the folks down South.

What should have been just, is for there to be no colonization of the New World at all.  Or at least no US (rebellion against GB).  It has been one bad thing after another, since 1492.  Of course the Native Americans aren't saints either, in spite of Joseph Smith ;-)

In alternate time-line land, it is easy to make claims.  But had I been alive then, in America, of whatever race (even Native American), given what people believed back then, I would have supported Lincoln, just because I can't support stupidity like shelling Ft Sumpter.  Even Rhett Butler thought that was stupid.  In that, I agree with Gen Sherman, who loved Southern culture, hated Blacks, but couldn't tolerate treason.  I disagree with Gen Sherman in that I have never hated Blacks.  But I appreciate Gen Sherman's struggle with mental illness.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Draconic Aiur on May 05, 2018, 03:47:58 PM
Slavery wasn't the main cause. It was states rights.

Fun fact: did you know the fist slave owner in America was African American? Did you also know that there were free African Ameericans in thee South that at 1830, a few hundred free blacks had slaves and at 1860, around a thousand free blacks had slaves?

Many states succeeded the union because the Union was pushing their states rights away.
http://railroads.unl.edu/blog/?p=40

You have to understand that in those days slavery wasn't really a issue even Lincoln didn't really care that much about it. It was all about political and economical as well as a sense of superiority (I give you that) to people of different skin. Also modern notions we have today weren't in place back then.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 05, 2018, 04:15:51 PM
The problem with history, is we are just projecting contemporary prejudice back onto long past events.  Was Julius Caesar a good guy or not?

Picking White hats and Black hats, is as close to bigotry as one can get.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvPbj9NX0zc

Of course Romans are always wrong and Jews are always right ... Caractacus said so ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ue5RIP8qdg

Bush Sr's New World Order ...

but Calgacus, leader of the Caledoni ... said "to ravage, to slaughter, to usurp under false titles, they call empire; and where they make a desert, they call it peace."
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Hydra009 on May 05, 2018, 09:26:56 PM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on May 05, 2018, 03:47:58 PM
Slavery wasn't the main cause. It was states rights.
A state's right to do what, exactly?

Also, I don't remember the South being very pro-states' rights when some northern states refused to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act.

QuoteFun fact: did you know the fist slave owner in America was African American? Did you also know that there were free African Ameericans in thee South that at 1830, a few hundred free blacks had slaves and at 1860, around a thousand free blacks had slaves?
Assuming for a moment all that's 100% true, what's that have to do with the price of tea in china?

5 seconds of googling later:  https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/facts-about-slavery/  Your source, I presume?

QuoteYou have to understand that in those days slavery wasn't really a issue even Lincoln didn't really care that much about it.
(https://i.imgur.com/3XK7lY6.jpg)

Lincoln early on took a "free soil" stance, opposing the expansion of slavery into US territories.  He later wrote "I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong."  Lincoln himself wrote and spoke quite a bit on the topic. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_and_slavery)  It was most certainly something he cared about.

QuoteIt was all about political and economical as well as a sense of superiority (I give you that) to people of different skin. Also modern notions we have today weren't in place back then.
No kidding.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Cavebear on May 05, 2018, 10:03:01 PM
Here we go again...  I majored in Political Science and minored in history specifically about the US Civil War.  In realiy, The Southern States succeeded from the Union because their influence was diminishing due to increased economic and population influence by the North.  BUT, that was caused because they had slaves who counted only 3/5 of a person.  BUT they couldn't get any agreement among themselves that slaves were "whole" beings to count as 1 person for Electoral College votes without declaring the slaves real people.

So they did what every group does when they were losing political influence.  They "doubled down" on the argument.  And I state outright that they meant it.  Slaves were not "people to them.  It is reflected in almost all the State Succession declarations.  They specifically did argue that slavery was "right and proper".  And it is also true that they were both ethically failing AND on the wrong end of history. 

They DESERVED to beaten into submission in order that they caught up to the rest of the world about an abhorrence to slavery.  I sometimes wonder what would have happened if in 1858, the Congress had outlawed slavery and then counted the freed slaves as citizens to be counted among the Southern State Electoral College count. 

I suspect the South would have still objected.  They could not understand a society without slavery.  That's why they mentioned it in all their succession documents. 

Lincoln disliked slavery.  But he took office intending only to limit it's spread.  He specifically said he did not intend to end it.  Initially, he expected to bring about the eventual extinction of slavery by stopping its further expansion into any U.S. territory, but not take ant direct action against it, trusting to time to make it unsuccessful.

The Southern States left the Union before he took office ANTICIPATING harsh laws against slavery (which he did not intend to propose).

It is also true that the Unionist North originally found Succession a bad thing for the American experiment and only later rallied around ending slavery.  Ethical arguments in the north solidified that idea.  Shifts from theoretical arguments to emotional ones are typical in wartime.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 05, 2018, 11:45:11 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 05, 2018, 09:26:56 PM
A state's right to do what, exactly?

Also, I don't remember the South being very pro-states' rights when some northern states refused to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act.
Assuming for a moment all that's 100% true, what's that have to do with the price of tea in china?

5 seconds of googling later:  https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/facts-about-slavery/  Your source, I presume?
(https://i.imgur.com/3XK7lY6.jpg)

Lincoln early on took a "free soil" stance, opposing the expansion of slavery into US territories.  He later wrote "I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong."  Lincoln himself wrote and spoke quite a bit on the topic. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_and_slavery)  It was most certainly something he cared about.
No kidding.

I don't agree with "States Rights" ... but if I did, certainly secession would be OK, and in today's technology, nuking DC would be an option.  Don't let John Wilkes Booth do all the work.  Lincoln did care about slavery, but he was willing to compromise.  John Brown didn't ... lotta John Brown molderin' in the grave around here.  New England self righteous Puritanical stink.  Nuke New England, starting with Boston .. .while we are at it.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 05, 2018, 11:49:27 PM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on May 05, 2018, 11:50:10 AM
Tbh. While a Central cause, i've heard it wasn't 'The' Central cause.

To put it simply ... Yankees and Southerners were both ass-holes.  A lot of them needed to die.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 06, 2018, 06:33:15 AM
Quote from: Baruch on May 05, 2018, 11:49:27 PM
To put it simply ... Yankees and Southerners were both ass-holes.  A lot of them needed to die.
Slave owners were the assholes.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 06, 2018, 08:32:18 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on May 05, 2018, 10:03:01 PM
...So they did what every group does when they were losing political Influence.  They "doubled down" on the argument.  And I state outright that they meant it.  Slaves were not "people to them.  It is reflected in almost all the State Succession declarations.  They specifically did argue that slavery was "right and proper".  And it is also true that they were both ethically failing AND on the wrong end of history... 

...They could not understand a society without slavery.  That's why they mentioned it in all their succession documents... 

It is also true that the Unionist North originally found Succession a bad thing for the American experiment and only later rallied around ending slavery.  Ethical arguments in the north solidified that idea.  Shifts from theoretical arguments to emotional ones are typical in wartime.
Also, typical in modern prewar fervor, the early stages of "wartime."

The invasion of Iraq was to... Well, few can be sure exactly, but probably much like the Civil War, to get a critical mass behind the war effort, you need to appeal to a broad base.  This requires more than one single argument.  We pleased the war mongers, by promising shock and awe.  We appealed to the frightened by saying Saddam had WMD.  We stirred the emotions of the bleeding hearts with the cry, "Free the Iraqi People."  The only group that did not need convincing were the capitalists who don't care what the war is about and never do as long as there's profit.

All you need is 67% support, and then fuck the other "unpatriotic" 33.

So it's not surprising that political leaders in the South would use multiple arguments to build their case.  Today, some Southern supporters would prefer to focus on, and probably even invent, justifications for the war that sound the most noble by modern standards.  It's not surprising that defenders of the south attempt to paint inhumanity of slavery as just a minor tangent that is blown out of proportion.  True, slavery was perfectly normal and moral to the troglodytes who wanted to remain in the 18th Century, but it was just as inhumane then as it would be today.  Welcome to a modern world, a more progressive than regressive, and a more inclusive than exclusive society.  And if that's too bitter a pill, you need an attitude adjustment.

Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 06, 2018, 08:52:56 AM
Quote from: SGOS on May 06, 2018, 06:33:15 AM
Slave owners were the assholes.

Every human has one.  We are all assholes ... I admit it, you won't ... virtue signaling like St Joan of Arc.

History revision works both Right and Left.  I would be happy if they all died.  If everyone in the US died in 1861-1865 ... then this issue would be over.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 06, 2018, 09:11:49 AM
Quote from: Baruch on May 06, 2018, 08:52:56 AM
We are all assholes ... I admit it, ... virtue signaling...
Being an asshole is not a virtue signal.  It's just an asshole signal.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 06, 2018, 11:10:21 AM
Quote from: SGOS on May 06, 2018, 09:11:49 AM
Being an asshole is not a virtue signal.  It's just an asshole signal.

It is what we all do.  The primary output of humanity is shit, piss and monkey memes.  Farts sometimes.

We also sweat, but don't like to.  We all want to be executive management on the Committee of Commissars.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Jason78 on May 06, 2018, 11:52:15 AM
I really enjoyed reading about the american revolution from american history textbooks.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Jason78 on May 06, 2018, 11:52:52 AM
Quote from: Baruch on May 06, 2018, 11:10:21 AM
It is what we all do.  The primary output of humanity is shit, piss and monkey memes.  Farts sometimes.

We also sweat, but don't like to.  We all want to be executive management on the Committee of Commissars.

As always, Baruch just speaks for himself.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Draconic Aiur on May 06, 2018, 12:04:59 PM
Quote from: SGOS on May 06, 2018, 06:33:15 AM
Slave owners were the assholes.

Not necessarily at the time It was like a fashion statement. If you had slaves you were cool and wealthy. And the people who had slaves were good people just like you and me, they just a product of their times.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: PickelledEggs on May 06, 2018, 01:53:40 PM
Where the fuck was this survey taken? Alabama?
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: PickelledEggs on May 06, 2018, 01:54:07 PM
Quote from: Jason78 on May 06, 2018, 11:52:52 AM
As always, Baruch just speaks for himself.
Baruch doesn't speak for anyone. He never says anything.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 06, 2018, 02:07:14 PM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on May 06, 2018, 12:04:59 PM
Not necessarily at the time It was like a fashion statement. If you had slaves you were cool and wealthy. And the people who had slaves were good people just like you and me, they just a product of their times.

Even Cherokee Indians kept Black slaves ... because it is a big status item.  It cost a lot of money to even buy one slave.  A young working male cost about $20,000 each.  Girl house slaves maybe halt that much.  This is why it was important to breed them.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 06, 2018, 02:08:03 PM
Quote from: PickelledEggs on May 06, 2018, 01:54:07 PM
Baruch doesn't speak for anyone. He never says anything.

I am not part of the "confirmation bias" for anyone.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 06, 2018, 02:24:49 PM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on May 06, 2018, 12:04:59 PM
Not necessarily at the time It was like a fashion statement. If you had slaves you were cool and wealthy. And the people who had slaves were good people just like you and me, they just a product of their times.
Upper class barbarians fucking with other people's lives.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 06, 2018, 03:40:02 PM
Quote from: SGOS on May 06, 2018, 02:24:49 PM
Upper class barbarians fucking with other people's lives.

European, African, Native American ... yes, the upper class is a problem.  The main problem with the stinking peasantry ... is they stink.  The upper class in the North, were busy F-ing over immigrant labor in their hellish factories (which helped the North win the war).  And before the war, bankers on both sides of the line, financed the slave business, including Jewish people in Boston.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Hydra009 on May 06, 2018, 06:42:10 PM
Just fyi for everyone involved in this thread:

secede = to formally withdraw one's membership; usually used for a territory/state breaking away from a country (Texas seceded from the United States)
succeed = to achieve something that you're trying to do (I succeeded at making a pizza from scratch)
succession = inheriting a title (the rules of succession mean that King Aeris II inherited the throne after Jaehaerys II died)
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Draconic Aiur on May 06, 2018, 08:47:58 PM
Quote from: SGOS on May 06, 2018, 02:24:49 PM
Upper class barbarians fucking with other people's lives.

There were lower middle class good families with slaves. Your "upper class Barbarians" does not exist until the majority of people think slavery is horrible which wasn't until later.

You have to look at it with perception.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Draconic Aiur on May 06, 2018, 08:50:46 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 06, 2018, 06:42:10 PM
Just fyi for everyone involved in this thread:

secede = to formally withdraw one's membership; usually used for a territory/state breaking away from a country (Texas seceded from the United States)
succeed = to achieve something that you're trying to do (I succeeded at making a pizza from scratch)
succession = inheriting a title (the rules of succession mean that King Aeris II inherited the throne after Jaehaerys II died)

Twas a fucking spelling error and you know that!
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 06, 2018, 09:07:20 PM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on May 06, 2018, 08:47:58 PM
There were lower middle class good families with slaves. Your "upper class Barbarians" does not exist until the majority of people think slavery is horrible which wasn't until later.

You have to look at it with perception.

You could only get slaves, without being wealthy, if you inherited them.  But if you inherit wealth, you are wealthy.  Your statement makes no sense, unless you mean family with class and families without class.  Some Southern families were college educated, some were what we could now call millionaires.  So yes, some families in a wooden shack, had slaves ... but the slaves were their wealth, not the plantation house.

We don't agree on what slavery is ... this is essential.  Thus we can have wage slavery and debt slavery without protest.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Draconic Aiur on May 07, 2018, 02:46:23 AM
Quote from: Baruch on May 06, 2018, 09:07:20 PM
You could only get slaves, without being wealthy, if you inherited them.  But if you inherit wealth, you are wealthy.  Your statement makes no sense, unless you mean family with class and families without class.  Some Southern families were college educated, some were what we could now call millionaires.  So yes, some families in a wooden shack, had slaves ... but the slaves were their wealth, not the plantation house.

We don't agree on what slavery is ... this is essential.  Thus we can have wage slavery and debt slavery without protest.

They could rent them from wealthy slave owners. Hell the middle class could probably buy one if they had 350 dollars. Now if you were say a middle class family with a farm raising cotton or tobacco or had a job where you could make that kind of money then yes you could have slaves. It would certainly explain how the heck around a thousand free African American families had slaves by the beginning of the civil war.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 07, 2018, 04:34:04 AM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on May 06, 2018, 08:47:58 PM
You have to look at it with perception.
As the South should have done, but refused to do.  They refused to look at it with the perception required to understand how they abused and dehumanized a race of people.  This is not rocket science and it doesn't take any deep perception to figure out.  We are talking about the most fundamental and universal principle of morality:  "Be kind to others who have done you no harm."   

The Bible says slavery is OK.  Sorry, it's wrong!  Even most Christians today understand this moral principle.  Refusing to acknowledge this doesn't give anyone a free pass.  Muslims are taught by their holy book to kill infidels.  Sorry!  Regardless what their book says or what they believe, it doesn't make it moral. 

The Civil War could have been avoided if the South had used a little common sense or was willing to acknowledge a bit of human decency.  Just as they had ultimate power over their slaves, the North had ultimate power over the South, and with that power, the South was taught to stop being bullies that wanted to quit playing and take their toys when they were told to quit acting like petulant self centered children.

Perception!  It's all about perception.  And it goes both ways.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 07, 2018, 06:37:43 AM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on May 07, 2018, 02:46:23 AM
They could rent them from wealthy slave owners. Hell the middle class could probably buy one if they had 350 dollars. Now if you were say a middle class family with a farm raising cotton or tobacco or had a job where you could make that kind of money then yes you could have slaves. It would certainly explain how the heck around a thousand free African American families had slaves by the beginning of the civil war.

Grasping at straws.  $350 in Civil War money is 20x down compared to today's dollar.  So that is about $7000, in an economy where most people made a fraction of that in a year.  There were very few middle class people back then ... it wasn't post WW II.  There were a few "wealthy on paper" African-American families, N and S.  In assets, if not in bank deposits.

SGOS - civil war over slavery, could have been stopped, if we were all New England abolitionist super-people ... like murderous John Brown.  But civil wars happen for more than one reason.  Nullification is an issue today.  Before the Civil War, New England wanted to secede also.

Virtue signalling ... "had I been alive back then, I wouldn't have owned slaves" ... yes, probably because you didn't have the resources to do so.  And I fall into that same camp, because my own ethics ... not just because of lack of resources.  But it is a vain claim to alternative history.  Holodeck much?
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Draconic Aiur on May 07, 2018, 08:50:44 AM
Quote from: SGOS on May 07, 2018, 04:34:04 AM
As the South should have done, but refused to do.  They refused to look at it with the perception required to understand how they abused and dehumanized a race of people.  This is not rocket science and it doesn't take any deep perception to figure out.  We are talking about the most fundamental and universal principle of morality:  "Be kind to others who have done you no harm."   

The Bible says slavery is OK.  Sorry, it's wrong!  Even most Christians today understand this moral principle.  Refusing to acknowledge this doesn't give anyone a free pass.  Muslims are taught by their holy book to kill infidels.  Sorry!  Regardless what their book says or what they believe, it doesn't make it moral. 

The Civil War could have been avoided if the South had used a little common sense or was willing to acknowledge a bit of human decency.  Just as they had ultimate power over their slaves, the North had ultimate power over the South, and with that power, the South was taught to stop being bullies that wanted to quit playing and take their toys when they were told to quit acting like petulant self centered children.

Perception!  It's all about perception.  And it goes both ways.

Your thinking with a modern day liberal bias. Yes w know slavery was wrong, but in order to understand why and how the people think what they did back then you must look from their point of view and understand they were not the devils you thought them out to be but people like you and me with values that are shit. Though some I admit were monsters.

Quote from: Baruch on May 07, 2018, 06:37:43 AM
Grasping at straws.  $350 in Civil War money is 20x down compared to today's dollar.  So that is about $7000, in an economy where most people made a fraction of that in a year.  There were very few middle class people back then ... it wasn't post WW II.  There were a few "wealthy on paper" African-American families, N and S.  In assets, if not in bank deposits.

True enough but not all slaves had equal prices back then and the young and healthiest were more expensive than others. Also lik you said before if they inherit the slaves and sold them for a cheap price.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 07, 2018, 10:37:40 AM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on May 07, 2018, 08:50:44 AM
Your thinking with a modern day liberal bias.
Everybody has a bias.  The bias of the South may not have been liberal, but it was barbaric.  But throughout history, there are people pointing to the future, and the South had these people too.  People who knew that slavery was an abomination, and contrary to the generalized pictures we paint of the South, these people were vocal, just as forward looking people are today.  They explained but they were ignored, as people on the right side of history often are.

I understand this.  I perceive it just as others do, and I understand what the South was doing, but you want me to perceive it in such a way that I condone it or at least see their point of view.  I do see their point of view, but I oppose it.  I would be part of that group of both South and North that saw the slavers point of view and knew it was wrong back in 1850, those who refused to take the point of view that forcing people into slavery was the moral high ground, but was nothing more than rationalization supported by the fallacy of a majority view and self serving convenience.

Those who opposed slavery in 1850, were not deficient in insight.  They understood the inhumanity and watched it up closer than you or I, and they condemned it.  Would you say they lacked the ability to understand another point of view?  No, they saw slavery for what it was, and were guided by their own conscience.



Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on May 07, 2018, 10:50:10 AM
So only 8% of American high schoolers know real history? Explains a lot about the current state of politics, actually.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 07, 2018, 12:48:18 PM
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on May 07, 2018, 10:50:10 AM
So only 8% of American high schoolers know real history? Explains a lot about the current state of politics, actually.
Yes, it would, but I kind of wonder about that 8% data.  It seems awful low, and I also wonder what method was used to determine what history high school students are supposed to know.  This figure is a measure of knowledge of slavery, but does it apply across the board to other parts of history?  Even if it were actually 40% it might still explain the current state of politics.  I always think we should do better, and I think we can.  But my feeling, and it's only a feeling, is that education and it's close cousin, knowledge, are not held in high regard in the US, so attempts to make them better lacks a solid foundation.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: GSOgymrat on May 07, 2018, 02:31:48 PM
People are not good or bad, they are actors that make choices. There are actions that are good or bad and these actions are evaluated based on whether they eventually lead to good or bad outcomes for people. Some actions have outcomes that are difficult to assess but actions such as slavery, genocide, murder, and rape have established outcomes-- they create human suffering. The calculation is easy-- simply put yourself in on the receiving end of the transaction. Even young children with little socialization have a concept empathy and fairness. Two hundred years ago people knew enslaving others was ultimately a bad choice, they knew they didn't want to be on the other end of that transaction, they knew it created suffering, but they rationalized that because it wasn't a bad outcome for them directly, or that the bad outcome wouldn't happen now, that it was a good choice. We humans have impressive strategies for justifying, to ourselves and others, bad choices and actions.

Similarly, in our current society, we know it is wrong to allow homeless citizens to freeze to death when we have the resources to shelter them. We know allowing the homeless man to suffer in the alley next to our apartment building is wrong but we make that choice. We are still dealing with the repercussions of the choice to enslave people two hundred years ago. Two hundred years from now, if we learn to make better choices, take better actions, our progeny will look back and wonder how we had so many resources but allowed people to freeze to death. I hope they realize we knew better and don't believe the lies we told ourselves.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Draconic Aiur on May 07, 2018, 03:27:19 PM
Quote from: SGOS on May 07, 2018, 10:37:40 AM
Everybody has a bias.  The bias of the South may not have been liberal, but it was barbaric.  But throughout history, there are people pointing to the future, and the South had these people too.  People who knew that slavery was an abomination, and contrary to the generalized pictures we paint of the South, these people were vocal, just as forward looking people are today.  They explained but they were ignored, as people on the right side of history often are.

I understand this.  I perceive it just as others do, and I understand what the South was doing, but you want me to perceive it in such a way that I condone it or at least see their point of view.  I do see their point of view, but I oppose it.  I would be part of that group of both South and North that saw the slavers point of view and knew it was wrong back in 1850, those who refused to take the point of view that forcing people into slavery was the moral high ground, but was nothing more than rationalization supported by the fallacy of a majority view and self serving convenience.

Those who opposed slavery in 1850, were not deficient in insight.  They understood the inhumanity and watched it up closer than you or I, and they condemned it.  Would you say they lacked the ability to understand another point of view?  No, they saw slavery for what it was, and were guided by their own conscience.

I totally agree with you about slavery being terrible but you are still not getting anything I have to say. When you look at history you have to remove your bias and become more neutral and see both sides of thee argument to see the whole picture. Like when I did a historiography paper for the hundred year war, I had to read 8 different authors and explain their viewpoints which I then gained a better understanding of that certain piece of history.


Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 07, 2018, 04:32:38 PM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on May 07, 2018, 03:27:19 PM
I totally agree with you about slavery being terrible but you are still not getting anything I have to say. When you look at history you have to remove your bias and become more neutral and see both sides of thee argument to see the whole picture. Like when I did a historiography paper for the hundred year war, I had to read 8 different authors and explain their viewpoints which I then gained a better understanding of that certain piece of history.
You want me to remove my bias?  I can't do that for the South anymore than I can for Nazi Germany. It's possible that I don't get what you are trying to say.  If that's the case, there is not much more I can do.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 07, 2018, 04:55:08 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on May 07, 2018, 02:31:48 PM
Two hundred years from now, if we learn to make better choices, take better actions, our progeny will look back and wonder how we had so many resources but allowed people to freeze to death. I hope they realize we knew better and don't believe the lies we told ourselves.
I hope they might take a less dim view of my generation knowing that not everyone was without compassion, or believed global warming was a scientific conspiracy, or hated dark skinned people.  The things that become our remembered legacy are never embraced by an entire population, and sometimes they are only embraced by a powerful minority that set the course of the future.

We can look back at the Dark Ages and laugh about the prevailing belief in demons and witches and an endless assortment of gods, but every generation has skeptics and people prone to reason, although they are often disregarded by the majority and are forgotten in history.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Draconic Aiur on May 07, 2018, 05:48:19 PM
Quote from: SGOS on May 07, 2018, 04:32:38 PM
You want me to remove my bias?  I can't do that for the South anymore than I can for Nazi Germany. It's possible that I don't get what you are trying to say.  If that's the case, there is not much more I can do.

The main point is back then they didn't think slavery was an issue. I'm defending that peoples perception back then wasn't what w have today and in order to understand why the past events happen you would have to look at the public view of slavery.  Ask questions think about how why and what made people not think its an issue.

Alot of people today get very emotional about this and just think slavery was the main cause of the Civil War because it was a horrendous event taking place in America, so they don't listen to anything else and remain ignorant of the whole truth and just listen to theirs.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 07, 2018, 05:54:35 PM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on May 07, 2018, 03:27:19 PM
I totally agree with you about slavery being terrible but you are still not getting anything I have to say. When you look at history you have to remove your bias and become more neutral and see both sides of thee argument to see the whole picture. Like when I did a historiography paper for the hundred year war, I had to read 8 different authors and explain their viewpoints which I then gained a better understanding of that certain piece of history.

Its easy ... English good, French bad ;-)

If a liberal considered the ideas of a conservative, or a Jew consider the ideas of a Nazi, their heads would explode.  People simply aren't ready to get past their bigotry and virtue signaling.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 07, 2018, 05:56:34 PM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on May 07, 2018, 05:48:19 PM
The main point is back then they didn't think slavery was an issue. I'm defending that peoples perception back then wasn't what w have today and in order to understand why the past events happen you would have to look at the public view of slavery.  Ask questions think about how why and what made people not think its an issue.

Alot of people today get very emotional about this and just think slavery was the main cause of the Civil War because it was a horrendous event taking place in America, so they don't listen to anything else and remain ignorant of the whole truth and just listen to theirs.

If we telescope history, then everyone, at every time in the past, should have been enlightened as we are, and are damned for not being so.  Now apply this to ourselves, as seen 100 years from now?  Not so comfortable.

There are admirable people in every generation, and monsters too.  Our present isn't the first generation to have compassion.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 07, 2018, 05:58:11 PM
Quote from: SGOS on May 07, 2018, 10:37:40 AM
Everybody has a bias.  The bias of the South may not have been liberal, but it was barbaric.  But throughout history, there are people pointing to the future, and the South had these people too.  People who knew that slavery was an abomination, and contrary to the generalized pictures we paint of the South, these people were vocal, just as forward looking people are today.  They explained but they were ignored, as people on the right side of history often are.

I understand this.  I perceive it just as others do, and I understand what the South was doing, but you want me to perceive it in such a way that I condone it or at least see their point of view.  I do see their point of view, but I oppose it.  I would be part of that group of both South and North that saw the slavers point of view and knew it was wrong back in 1850, those who refused to take the point of view that forcing people into slavery was the moral high ground, but was nothing more than rationalization supported by the fallacy of a majority view and self serving convenience.

Those who opposed slavery in 1850, were not deficient in insight.  They understood the inhumanity and watched it up closer than you or I, and they condemned it.  Would you say they lacked the ability to understand another point of view?  No, they saw slavery for what it was, and were guided by their own conscience.

How many embryos do we abort, because we can't control our libidos?
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 07, 2018, 06:00:40 PM
Quote from: SGOS on May 07, 2018, 10:37:40 AM
Everybody has a bias.  The bias of the South may not have been liberal, but it was barbaric.  But throughout history, there are people pointing to the future, and the South had these people too.  People who knew that slavery was an abomination, and contrary to the generalized pictures we paint of the South, these people were vocal, just as forward looking people are today.  They explained but they were ignored, as people on the right side of history often are.

I understand this.  I perceive it just as others do, and I understand what the South was doing, but you want me to perceive it in such a way that I condone it or at least see their point of view.  I do see their point of view, but I oppose it.  I would be part of that group of both South and North that saw the slavers point of view and knew it was wrong back in 1850, those who refused to take the point of view that forcing people into slavery was the moral high ground, but was nothing more than rationalization supported by the fallacy of a majority view and self serving convenience.

Those who opposed slavery in 1850, were not deficient in insight.  They understood the inhumanity and watched it up closer than you or I, and they condemned it.  Would you say they lacked the ability to understand another point of view?  No, they saw slavery for what it was, and were guided by their own conscience.

They didn't oppose slavery because of E O Wilson ethics of ants.  They did so because they were Puritanical Christians or Evangelical Christians.  There weren't so many atheists back then.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 07, 2018, 06:04:38 PM
Quote from: SGOS on May 07, 2018, 04:32:38 PM
You want me to remove my bias?  I can't do that for the South anymore than I can for Nazi Germany. It's possible that I don't get what you are trying to say.  If that's the case, there is not much more I can do.

In one of my vivid dreams, I was a German soldier in WW II.  And maybe I was.  If you are not just you, but have lived many lives, should your present "you" condemn the past "you"?  Yes ... I find Southern arrogance (that is what it takes to own people) to be horrible.  But I also consider Yankee arrogance not implementing OSHA in Northern factories to be horrible.  Part of what is going on here, is phobia of the past, a past that happened, so we can't escape it.  Jews know this very well.  Germans and Japanese do too, and to be fascist today they have to go thru mental gyrations to avoid the associated guilt.  Similarly Putin blaming all of communism on Stalin and Jews.  A lot of Russians thought that communism was a good deal, but it didn't work out so well for them.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 07, 2018, 07:46:15 PM
Quote from: Baruch on May 07, 2018, 06:04:38 PM
If you are not just you, but have lived many lives, should your present "you" condemn the past "you"?
Most psychologists would probably say no.  But I do condemn myself, and I'm not talking about me in another life.  I'm talking about me in this life.  I also experience regret for many of my actions.  Yee Gods!  What was I thinking back then?  A friend of mine once told me when I confided this that, "The problem was that you were NOT thinking," and while that was intended as a clever quip, he nailed it, not that this was an unexpected insight.  I already knew it.  But I'm also proud of other things I've done, so it's a wash, I guess, just not a perfect wash.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 07, 2018, 08:47:20 PM
Quote from: SGOS on May 07, 2018, 07:46:15 PM
Most psychologists would probably say no.  But I do condemn myself, and I'm not talking about me in another life.  I'm talking about me in this life.  I also experience regret for many of my actions.  Yee Gods!  What was I thinking back then?  A friend of mine once told me when I confided this that, "The problem was that you were NOT thinking," and while that was intended as a clever quip, he nailed it, not that this was an unexpected insight.  I already knew it.  But I'm also proud of other things I've done, so it's a wash, I guess, just not a perfect wash.

That is fair enough, we can limit to just this one life.  And yes, condemn yourself it you want.  It is a free country (as long as you pay your dues first).
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Draconic Aiur on May 07, 2018, 10:20:08 PM
Quote from: Baruch on May 07, 2018, 05:56:34 PM
If we telescope history, then everyone, at every time in the past, should have been enlightened as we are, and are damned for not being so.  Now apply this to ourselves, as seen 100 years from now?  Not so comfortable.

There are admirable people in every generation, and monsters too.  Our present isn't the first generation to have compassion.

That is implying that back then they had modern day perceptions which they did not. They were still good people, its just that there morals were very different from ours today.

Present day we are more moralistic and more rational than we ever were before.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: PickelledEggs on May 08, 2018, 03:26:20 AM
Wait. what is this conversation? Is Draconic saying that one of the biggest reasons for the civil war was the issue of slavery? or am i reading this wrong
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 08, 2018, 04:18:50 AM
I don't see being moralistic or rationalistic as necessarily good things.  Muslim extremists are very moralistic, but not rationalistic.  Nazis are very rationalistic, but not very moralistic.  So Muslim Nazis are a good thing?
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 08, 2018, 07:48:53 AM
Quote from: PickelledEggs on May 08, 2018, 03:26:20 AM
Wait. what is this conversation? Is Draconic saying that one of the biggest reasons for the civil war was the issue of slavery? or am i reading this wrong
As the person identified as not getting anything of what he is saying, I think he's talking about there being no universal morality, and how we should not judge moralities that are vastly different than our own.  But I think his position on your question is that slavery was not the central cause of the Civil War.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 08, 2018, 08:17:20 AM
In thinking about causes of the Civil War further, it is obvious that not everyone perceives the causes the importance to be to the same degree.  It then occurs to me that some of this depends on which side of the war a person was on.  I don't think the politics of slavery were as important for the North as it was for the South.  I think the main objective of the North was to hold the union together.

The South had written many declarations citing several reasons for secession, but slavery was always listed, and appeared to be the most unnegotiable grievance.  Even when the South offered to end the fighting when the outcome was clearly not in their favor, they offered to do so as long as they could still own slaves.  Many in the North would have taken that, but Lincoln, apparently sensing the kill, refused to allow any concessions.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 08, 2018, 12:48:12 PM
Quote from: SGOS on May 08, 2018, 08:17:20 AM
In thinking about causes of the Civil War further, it is obvious that not everyone perceives the causes the importance to be to the same degree.  It then occurs to me that some of this depends on which side of the war a person was on.  I don't think the politics of slavery were as important for the North as it was for the South.  I think the main objective of the North was to hold the union together.

The South had written many declarations citing several reasons for secession, but slavery was always listed, and appeared to be the most unnegotiable grievance.  Even when the South offered to end the fighting when the outcome was clearly not in their favor, they offered to do so as long as they could still own slaves.  Many in the North would have taken that, but Lincoln, apparently sensing the kill, refused to allow any concessions.

There was a plot, by Sec War Stimson, to make sure that when Lincoln met the Southern diplomats at Hampton Roads ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampton_Roads_Conference

... that Lincoln wouldn't make too many concessions.  The Radical Republicans were more intransigent than Lincoln himself.  I don't think Lincoln was in danger, since he had Gen Grant there with him.  The passage of the 13th Amendment shortly before the conference ... hardened the Union position, as the Radical Republicans wanted.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: PickelledEggs on May 08, 2018, 01:32:33 PM
Quote from: Baruch on May 08, 2018, 04:18:50 AM
I don't see being moralistic or rationalistic as necessarily good things.  Muslim extremists are very moralistic, but not rationalistic.  Nazis are very rationalistic, but not very moralistic.  So Muslim Nazis are a good thing?
Moralistic? Partially not necessarily good things. Rational? Never not good.

The only reason I say moralistic is not necessarily good, is because even today, we have relative morality. EVEN within small regions, like a state or town, morality differs.

The issue of health care is one big thing that is a good example for that: Republicans that are against universal health care don't want people to be unhealthy, they just don't want their money to pay for people's doctor's bills. It's a difference in how people want their money spent and it get's labeled as "immoral" from most liberals because it is seen as them not caring about people. It's different priorities for the greater good of the people. People have different views on what is the a better approach for the greater good of the people. But just because you have a different idea of how everyone is obligated to spend their money through taxes, doesn't mean you are moral/immoral.

Slavery is a completely different thing. It's something that is directly hurting another person and detrimental to their well-being. Slavery can objectively be seen as immoral. Many things in life are subjective. Slavery being an immoral act, is not something that is subjective. Especially if you understand that people that aren't light skin-ed are as human as the rest of us.

The reason I say morality not necessarily good, is that occasionally it gets in the way of rationality. You have seen this on the right for years, but recently, it has been more and more frequent and severe of a problem with the left as well. Where someone's self-professed supreme morals take control and override any sense of rationality or realism for how the world or human nature works.

Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Draconic Aiur on May 08, 2018, 02:56:15 PM
Quote from: Baruch on May 08, 2018, 04:18:50 AM
I don't see being moralistic or rationalistic as necessarily good things.  Muslim extremists are very moralistic, but not rationalistic.  Nazis are very rationalistic, but not very moralistic.  So Muslim Nazis are a good thing?

Sarcasm is not appreciated
Quote from: PickelledEggs on May 08, 2018, 03:26:20 AM
Wait. what is this conversation? Is Draconic saying that one of the biggest reasons for the civil war was the issue of slavery? or am i reading this wrong

States right it is and arguing why the South  and North didn't think slavery was an issue bcause African American wre not human to them.

Quote from: SGOS on May 08, 2018, 07:48:53 AM
As the person identified as not getting anything of what he is saying, I think he's talking about there being no universal morality, and how we should not judge moralities that are vastly different than our own.  But I think his position on your question is that slavery was not the central cause of the Civil War.

Close but no cigar.

I'm saying their morals weren't as civilized as ours and in order to understand how they think and what happened to make them think like that we need to keep our biases out and look at them with a scientist's mind. I keep on saying the explanation over and over again its like i'm fucking talking to a wall.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 08, 2018, 03:15:33 PM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on May 08, 2018, 02:56:15 PM
Close but no cigar.

I'm saying their morals weren't as civilized as ours and in order to understand how they think and what happened to make them think like that we need to keep our biases out and look at them with a scientist's mind. I keep on saying the explanation over and over again its like i'm fucking talking to a wall.
Yes, I heard that, but it was so obvious from the beginning that I didn't comment on that specifically.  Of course, historians should look past their biases.  But I'm not a historian and don't claim to be one.  I was just passing judgment on our past, like anyone else is allowed to do.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: PickelledEggs on May 08, 2018, 03:32:32 PM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on May 08, 2018, 02:56:15 PM

States right it is and arguing why the South  and North didn't think slavery was an issue bcause African American wre not human to them.

I'm sorry but I'm having a hard time understanding this sentence, as the grammar is broken beyond comprehension

Can you re-word this so I can understand it?
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Draconic Aiur on May 08, 2018, 06:48:22 PM
Quote from: PickelledEggs on May 08, 2018, 03:32:32 PM
I'm sorry but I'm having a hard time understanding this sentence, as the grammar is broken beyond comprehension

Can you re-word this so I can understand it?


The reason why the south states seceded ant went to fucking war was states rights.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 08, 2018, 07:28:18 PM
Devil's argument:

It is rational to kill excess monkeys.  Culling the heard.  Same as you do with any game animal or excess livestock.

The Germans may have been bigoted (kill only certain excess monkeys) but they weren't irrational.  They were so rational (German efficiency, engineering, top-down organizing) that they killed more people per their population than any other belligerent.  The Japanese were similarly rational.

Moralizers see everyone else, as a demon.  Muslims see non-Muslims as demons, but they are obligated to kill demons.  They don't see themselves as demons (being moralizers), and so Muslims don't see a demon when they look in the mirror.  The Catholic Church is similarly moralizing.

Now imagine that the Japanese or Germans are Muslim ;-(  They didn't claim to be moral, just self interested.  With Allah behind them, they would be unstoppable.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Draconic Aiur on May 08, 2018, 08:38:10 PM
Quote from: Baruch on May 08, 2018, 07:28:18 PM
Devil's argument:

It is rational to kill excess monkeys.  Culling the heard.  Same as you do with any game animal or excess livestock.

The Germans may have been bigoted (kill only certain excess monkeys) but they weren't irrational.  They were so rational (German efficiency, engineering, top-down organizing) that they killed more people per their population than any other belligerent.  The Japanese were similarly rational.

Moralizers see everyone else, as a demon.  Muslims see non-Muslims as demons, but they are obligated to kill demons.  They don't see themselves as demons (being moralizers), and so Muslims don't see a demon when they look in the mirror.  The Catholic Church is similarly moralizing.

Now imagine that the Japanese or Germans are Muslim ;-(  They didn't claim to be moral, just self interested.  With Allah behind them, they would be unstoppable.

You know what the fuck I mean goddammit.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 08, 2018, 10:35:53 PM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on May 08, 2018, 08:38:10 PM
You know what the fuck I mean goddammit.

Yes,  I do.  I was responding to PickelledEggs.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Draconic Aiur on May 08, 2018, 11:24:41 PM
Quote from: Baruch on May 08, 2018, 10:35:53 PM
Yes,  I do.  I was responding to PickelledEggs.

oh
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: PickelledEggs on May 08, 2018, 11:59:02 PM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on May 08, 2018, 08:38:10 PM
You know what the fuck I mean goddammit.
Calm your tits.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 01:03:13 AM
Quote from: Baruch on May 06, 2018, 08:52:56 AM
Every human has one.  We are all assholes ... I admit it, you won't ... virtue signaling like St Joan of Arc.

History revision works both Right and Left.  I would be happy if they all died.  If everyone in the US died in 1861-1865 ... then this issue would be over.

Of the many posts you have offerred, this may be one of the most bizarre and irrational.

First, pointing out that some people are "assholes" but we all "have one" is confusing the figurative with the literal.  If you were stupid, I would forgive you.  But you know better that that.

Second, "If everyone in the US died in 1861-1865 ... then this issue would be over."  That is truly one of the weakest statements I have ever seen.  As little as I think of you these days, that is an outstandingly bad one.  No war results in everyone dying. 

I invite you to expound on "virtue signaling like St Joan of Arc".  I'm sure it means something to you. But it will probably just show less understanding of factual history (or some overly-religious explanation) of the English/French wars of the time.




Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 09, 2018, 05:09:21 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 01:03:13 AM
Of the many posts you have offerred, this may be one of the most bizarre and irrational.

First, pointing out that some people are "assholes" but we all "have one" is confusing the figurative with the literal.  If you were stupid, I would forgive you.  But you know better that that.

Second, "If everyone in the US died in 1861-1865 ... then this issue would be over."  That is truly one of the weakest statements I have ever seen.  As little as I think of you these days, that is an outstandingly bad one.  No war results in everyone dying. 

I invite you to expound on "virtue signaling like St Joan of Arc".  I'm sure it means something to you. But it will probably just show less understanding of factual history (or some overly-religious explanation) of the English/French wars of the time.
When I start to read stuff like that I just skip to the end.  I have no interest in reading between the lines, deciphering an enigma, or looking for hidden meanings.  I don't ask for clarification of partial insights.  It's not my responsibility to organize a writer's thoughts for him.  That needs to be done before he posts to the forum.  I'll share the load, but I expect the writer to figure out what he's thinking before he posts.  If I have identified the writer as habitual in that regard, I just leave the post half read and go to the next as soon as I realize he's being lazy.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 05:35:23 AM
Quote from: SGOS on May 09, 2018, 05:09:21 AM
When I start to read stuff like that I just skip to the end.  I have no interest in reading between the lines, deciphering an enigma, or looking for hidden meanings.  I don't ask for clarification of partial insights.  It's not my responsibility to organize a writer's thoughts for him.  That needs to be done before he posts to the forum.  I'll share the load, but I expect the writer to figure out what he's thinking before he posts.  If I have identified the writer as habitual in that regard, I just leave the post half read and go to the next as soon as I realize he's being lazy.

Well, yes, and my apologies for even replying to Baruch.  But sometimes I glance at his posts to see what he is saying that OTHER people are routinely reading.  I shouldn't, I know...  It is like sometimes I listen to what Trump is saying just so I can understand what his followers are raging about so that I can discuss it with others.

I will try to do better ignoring Baruch's posts.  My occasional curiosity really is never worth it.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 09, 2018, 06:11:14 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 05:35:23 AM
I will try to do better ignoring Baruch's posts.  My occasional curiosity really is never worth it.
Ignore or focus however you prefer.  I couldn't begin to tell someone how to ignore Baruch.  It would be easy if you could simply tell yourself to do that, but I didn't force it.  I just arrived at a point where I think my subconscious did it's own cost/benefit analysis and decided paying attention was an uncompensated expenditure.  In this case, I just let it skim me on to the next post without feeling I owe undue time and energy to one person.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 06:28:11 AM
Quote from: SGOS on May 09, 2018, 06:11:14 AM
Ignore or focus however you prefer.  I couldn't begin to tell someone how to ignore Baruch.  It would be easy if you could simply tell yourself to do that, but I didn't force it.  I just arrived at a point where I think my subconscious did it's own cost/benefit analysis and decided paying attention was an uncompensated expenditure.  In this case, I just let it skim me on to the next post without feeling I owe undue time and energy to one person.

I have him on "ignore".
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 09, 2018, 07:19:46 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 01:03:13 AM
Of the many posts you have offerred, this may be one of the most bizarre and irrational.

First, pointing out that some people are "assholes" but we all "have one" is confusing the figurative with the literal.  If you were stupid, I would forgive you.  But you know better that that.

Second, "If everyone in the US died in 1861-1865 ... then this issue would be over."  That is truly one of the weakest statements I have ever seen.  As little as I think of you these days, that is an outstandingly bad one.  No war results in everyone dying. 

I invite you to expound on "virtue signaling like St Joan of Arc".  I'm sure it means something to you. But it will probably just show less understanding of factual history (or some overly-religious explanation) of the English/French wars of the time.

Irony ... wasted on you?  There are a lot of Catholic saints at this atheist forum ;-)  Hyperbole ... wasted on you?  Probably.  You stopped your conics at circles and ellipses ;-)

SGOS - you usually have something interesting to say.  So no, you aren't ignore.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 10:34:45 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 06:28:11 AM
I have him on "ignore".

Which I hope annoys him no end.  He should probably get sent back to "Naked Mole Rat".
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 09, 2018, 11:21:52 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 10:34:45 AM
Which I hope annoys him no end.  He should probably get sent back to "Naked Mole Rat".

Jealousy much?  I am sure you were the terror over at the DMV.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Cavebear on May 12, 2018, 05:09:46 AM
But to get back to the topic of 8% of high schoolers not understanding the cause of the Civil War as Slavery (as the ultimate cause), I am not surprised. 
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 12, 2018, 06:58:18 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on May 12, 2018, 05:09:46 AM
But to get back to the topic...
Good idea.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 12, 2018, 07:30:16 AM
Quote from: SGOS on May 12, 2018, 06:58:18 AM
Good idea.

The topic ... Americans stupid, Americans evil ... lets destroy the US ... autistic anti-social pathologies unite!
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 12, 2018, 08:06:16 AM
Quote from: Baruch on May 12, 2018, 07:30:16 AM
The topic ... Americans stupid, Americans evil ... lets destroy the US ... autistic anti-social pathologies unite!
It may be true, and by a stretch, it could be a description of the topic, but the last page had little to do with even that.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 12, 2018, 08:10:31 AM
Quote from: SGOS on May 12, 2018, 08:06:16 AM
It may be true, and by a stretch, it could be a description of the topic, but the last page had little to do with even that.

Brownian Movement ... random motion by molecules not at absolute zero.

How will discussing ... "Americans stupid" or "American children miseducated" be a topic worth discussing?  The point of education is to propagandize the children into model proletariat (of whatever party you choose).  Because if you control the present, you control the future, but if you control the past, you control the present.  The whole point is to control the future (ideologically of course).
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Unbeliever on May 12, 2018, 02:06:36 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 05:35:23 AM
Well, yes, and my apologies for even replying to Baruch.  But sometimes I glance at his posts to see what he is saying that OTHER people are routinely reading.  I shouldn't, I know...  It is like sometimes I listen to what Trump is saying just so I can understand what his followers are raging about so that I can discuss it with others.

I will try to do better ignoring Baruch's posts.  My occasional curiosity really is never worth it.
You must try to control your morbid fascination...like people who drive slowly by car accidents.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 12, 2018, 03:46:52 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 12, 2018, 02:06:36 PM
You must try to control your morbid fascination...like people who drive slowly by car accidents.

Life is a car accident.  Some will stop and apply first aide.  Others drive by morbidly.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Hydra009 on May 12, 2018, 06:13:01 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on May 12, 2018, 05:09:46 AM
But to get back to the topic of 8% of high schoolers not understanding the cause of the Civil War as Slavery (as the ultimate cause), I am not surprised.
Back when I was in high school (almost 20 years ago) it was covered extensively.  Has that changed?
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Cavebear on May 19, 2018, 02:53:17 AM
Quote from: SGOS on May 12, 2018, 06:58:18 AM
Good idea.

OK.  I grew up in Massachusetts in 1950.  Then Dad got a promotion so we moved to Virginia.  What a shock!  In Petersburg at age 9.  I had a typical Yankee accent.  A girl sitting next to me in class had a deep Georgia accent and neither of us could even understand what the other was saying.  Seriously, there were real regional accents back in the 50s.  I was the only kid in the class from north of the Mason/Dixon Line (look it up if you have to).

I was shocked to discover the Southern kids thought the Civil War was not about slavery (look up the Confederate States Constitutions).  It was 4 horrible years there.  Moving to Maryland (border State that it was) was a relief.  And Maryland is not really a Northern State quite even now.  But it sure was better than Virginia.

Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 19, 2018, 05:51:30 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on May 19, 2018, 02:53:17 AM
I was shocked to discover the Southern kids thought the Civil War was not about slavery (look up the Confederate States Constitutions).  It was 4 horrible years there.  Moving to Maryland (border State that it was) was a relief.  And Maryland is not really a Northern State quite even now.  But it sure was better than Virginia.
It's one of those issues where political spins can easily be woven into history.  There were other arguments for the Civil War besides slavery, but which were closely related to slavery, if not outright synonymous.  States rights is perhaps the most blatant.  People don't go around demanding states rights until the Federal Government regulates or forbids a thing no matter how heinous, and then "states rights" gets dragged out as a justification.  The bottom line is that no matter how many rights a state is granted, slavery remains a disgusting and unacceptable way to treat other humans, and if the South thought it was a right, they needed to learn that it was unacceptable to claim that right in the United States or any other civilized nation.

There were apparently issues over tariffs and taxes that the South considered unfair.  These were not related to the slave issue.  But everyone thinks taxes are unfair.  No matter your ideology, you can find some tax expenditure that you won't like.  It's un-American not to complain about taxes.  If the tariff issue was more than a red herring, it seemed to get rectified or at least forgotten after the war, until recently when Trump brought the concept back into the lime light.

So I can see that the immediate knee jerk reaction to teaching southern kids about the civil war would be to sweep slavery under a carpet.  There are many convenient spins racist [or just embarrassed] school boards can use to accomplish that.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 19, 2018, 06:58:00 AM
Sorry, tariffs/excise taxes before the Civil War were a big deal.  Mostly customs dues.  The Feds were eating into potential state tax revenues, and still are.  The more the Feds take, the less the states can.  Also how the tax is collected ... if on alcohol. sugar and tobacco, it is seen as mostly impacting the South.  Customs and cross-state lines taxes were easier to collect.  Individual income tax didn't happen for the first time, until the need to finance the Union side of the Civil War became an issue.  The South couldn't tax that way, and had to issue depreciating script.

The first tax rebellion was over whiskey being produced in W Pennsylvania.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excise_tax_in_the_United_States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_of_Abominations ... this tariff led to the Nullification Crisis in 1828

Basically cheap imported manufactured goods were shutting out New England industry (which was still behind the curve compared to England)

http://www.taxhistory.org/www/website.nsf/Web/THM1861?OpenDocument

In 1790, the above article says, you could pay your Federal tax with 4 days labor (aka 1%).  The South prior to the Civil War had one of the lowest tax rates in the civilized world and a history of Celtic tax resistance, particularly on alcohol.  Today (2012), Fed, State and local taxes take 107 days of labor. (aka 29%).

I don't think the issue was just fairness (in 1828), but competition for revenue between the different levels of government.  And that is still a problem, no matter how the taxes are collected.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Cavebear on May 19, 2018, 07:40:11 AM
Quote from: SGOS on May 19, 2018, 05:51:30 AM
It's one of those issues where political spins can easily be woven into history.  There were other arguments for the Civil War besides slavery, but which were closely related to slavery, if not outright synonymous.  States rights is perhaps the most blatant.  People don't go around demanding states rights until the Federal Government regulates or forbids a thing no matter how heinous, and then "states rights" gets dragged out as a justification.  The bottom line is that no matter how many rights a state is granted, slavery remains a disgusting and unacceptable way to treat other humans, and if the South thought it was a right, they needed to learn that it was unacceptable to claim that right in the United States or any other civilized nation.

There were apparently issues over tariffs and taxes that the South considered unfair.  These were not related to the slave issue.  But everyone thinks taxes are unfair.  No matter your ideology, you can find some tax expenditure that you won't like.  It's un-American not to complain about taxes.  If the tariff issue was more than a red herring, it seemed to get rectified or at least forgotten after the war, until recently when Trump brought the concept back into the lime light.

So I can see that the immediate knee jerk reaction to teaching southern kids about the civil war would be to sweep slavery under a carpet.  There are many convenient spins racist [or just embarrassed] school boards can use to accomplish that.

It is also worth noting that by the 1850s, the South was starting to lose its hold over the Federal Government by its former advantage of counting the slaves as "people" (who of course couldn't vote) for just that one purpose (counted in the Electoral College, even at 3/5s).  So when even that wasn't enough to keep control, they freaked...

They wanted to count their slaves the way some people today wish they could list their pets as "dependents" on their tax forms.  But without all the bother of letting them vote, decide where to live, earn wages, maintain a family, receive an education, etc...

And I might mention that some people object saying "most Southerners didn't own slaves".  True, but they wanted to, the same way most people support tax laws that favor the rich because they expect they will be rich themselves some day.  Just need the right lottery number, right?

Too many people support unequal rules hoping to gain advantages from them some day "when their ship comes in".  And never will. 

I never know whether to laugh at such people or feel sorry for them...

Oh, OK, I laugh...
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 19, 2018, 11:54:12 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on May 19, 2018, 07:40:11 AM
It is also worth noting that by the 1850s, the South was starting to lose its hold over the Federal Government by its former advantage of counting the slaves as "people" (who of course couldn't vote) for just that one purpose (counted in the Electoral College, even at 3/5s).  So when even that wasn't enough to keep control, they freaked...

They wanted to count their slaves the way some people today wish they could list their pets as "dependents" on their tax forms.  But without all the bother of letting them vote, decide where to live, earn wages, maintain a family, receive an education, etc...

And I might mention that some people object saying "most Southerners didn't own slaves".  True, but they wanted to, the same way most people support tax laws that favor the rich because they expect they will be rich themselves some day.  Just need the right lottery number, right?

Too many people support unequal rules hoping to gain advantages from them some day "when their ship comes in".  And never will. 

I never know whether to laugh at such people or feel sorry for them...

Oh, OK, I laugh...

That upset the apple cart regarding admitting new states as slave/free.  But after Reconstruction, the South came to dominate Congressional leadership, and still do.  D-party gets to count illegal immigrants as voters ... do you approve?  D-voters are Uncle Thomas' friends.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on May 21, 2018, 11:23:53 PM
The forces of economics are both powerful and subtle.  Don't pay too much attention to what the politician of the moment says, politicians aren't smarter than everyone else.

The war had been inevitable for a long time due to the very different economies of North and South.  This became apparent when the Whig party disintegrated.

Prior to that war there were two parties, the Democrats and the Whigs. The Democrats believed in a far more limited federal government than the Whigs did.  The Whigs did believe in an activist federal government intervening to help the commercial interests.  (In today's terms we'd call it "the economy")  The problem was, with two very different economies, you have two very different ideas on what is the proper intervention, and two very different ideas on how to pay for it.  That split the Whigs into disintegration.

The Democrats had it easier.  When you don't believe in intervention, you don't have to argue about what intervention you don't believe in.

The issue of how to intervene, and how to pay for the intervention, split the Whigs, and was eventually won by the North where the Whigs became the Republicans.  That left the southern Whigs out in the cold.  That also meant that if the Republicans had their way (which they eventually did) it would mean improvements in the North paid for by the South.

The reason Slavery is a root issue (but not "THE" root issue) is that slavery was a very large part of the economic difference between the two.  So was State's Rights, with one region not wanting to be taxed to benefit another region.  Slavery was more of a bellwether than the root, it was the identifiable aspect that the other issues wound up lining up behind.

There were actually three factions at play, which could be seen in Bleeding Kansas.  One faction was of course the faction lined up behind slavery.  The second faction was the Free Soil faction that wanted slavery confined to the South.  They didn't want their labor to compete with slave labor.  They weren't abolitionist, they just didn't want the expansion of slavery, and they wanted it for personal selfish reasons.  The third faction was the Abolitionists, and they opposed slavery in itself and wanted to see it eliminated even from the South.

Now if the Free Soilers had their way, that would have left the South disadvantaged in the federal government, especially since the Whigs were collapsing in favor of a coalition that was almost entirely Northern.  Slavery became the bellwether and when Lincoln won without any Southern support it showed clearly (even if people don't always understand economic indicators consciously) that they were doomed.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Hydra009 on May 21, 2018, 11:50:11 PM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 21, 2018, 11:23:53 PMThere were actually three factions at play, which could be seen in Bleeding Kansas.  One faction was of course the faction lined up behind slavery.  The second faction was the Free Soil faction that wanted slavery confined to the South.  They didn't want their labor to compete with slave labor.  They weren't abolitionist, they just didn't want the expansion of slavery, and they wanted it for personal selfish reasons.  The third faction was the Abolitionists, and they opposed slavery in itself and wanted to see it eliminated even from the South.

Now if the Free Soilers had their way, that would have left the South disadvantaged in the federal government, especially since the Whigs were collapsing in favor of a coalition that was almost entirely Northern.
Hmm...Free Soil seems like it'd be desirable if you wanted to limit Slaver States' power in national government, diminishing their power over time, and (hopefully) eventually phasing out slavery without making any overtly threatening moves against the slavers and triggering some sort of violent conflict.  Hopefully, none of the slavers will overreact and do something crazy like I dunno, assault a fort or something.

*edit - the Free Soilers were pretty subtle about their low-key opposition to slavery: "'Free Soil, Free Speech, Free Labor, and Free Men"
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Cavebear on May 22, 2018, 02:31:03 AM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 21, 2018, 11:23:53 PM
The forces of economics are both powerful and subtle.  Don't pay too much attention to what the politician of the moment says, politicians aren't smarter than everyone else.

The war had been inevitable for a long time due to the very different economies of North and South.  This became apparent when the Whig party disintegrated.

Prior to that war there were two parties, the Democrats and the Whigs. The Democrats believed in a far more limited federal government than the Whigs did.  The Whigs did believe in an activist federal government intervening to help the commercial interests.  (In today's terms we'd call it "the economy")  The problem was, with two very different economies, you have two very different ideas on what is the proper intervention, and two very different ideas on how to pay for it.  That split the Whigs into disintegration.

The Democrats had it easier.  When you don't believe in intervention, you don't have to argue about what intervention you don't believe in.

The issue of how to intervene, and how to pay for the intervention, split the Whigs, and was eventually won by the North where the Whigs became the Republicans.  That left the southern Whigs out in the cold.  That also meant that if the Republicans had their way (which they eventually did) it would mean improvements in the North paid for by the South.

The reason Slavery is a root issue (but not "THE" root issue) is that slavery was a very large part of the economic difference between the two.  So was State's Rights, with one region not wanting to be taxed to benefit another region.  Slavery was more of a bellwether than the root, it was the identifiable aspect that the other issues wound up lining up behind.

There were actually three factions at play, which could be seen in Bleeding Kansas.  One faction was of course the faction lined up behind slavery.  The second faction was the Free Soil faction that wanted slavery confined to the South.  They didn't want their labor to compete with slave labor.  They weren't abolitionist, they just didn't want the expansion of slavery, and they wanted it for personal selfish reasons.  The third faction was the Abolitionists, and they opposed slavery in itself and wanted to see it eliminated even from the South.

Now if the Free Soilers had their way, that would have left the South disadvantaged in the federal government, especially since the Whigs were collapsing in favor of a coalition that was almost entirely Northern.  Slavery became the bellwether and when Lincoln won without any Southern support it showed clearly (even if people don't always understand economic indicators consciously) that they were doomed.

I stand by my claim that the Southerns States only finally rebelled when they lost political control over the Federal Government.  The Northern States were gaining in population (even counting the Southern slaves as 3/5s who could of course not actuallt vote).  They knew they could only support their "peculiar institution" by controlling the Federal Government, and when Lincoln of the new Republican Party was elected, they had lost all control.

So, in a fit of High Pique, they decided to leave.  I'll be glad to discuss the legalities of that with you.

Basically, though, it WAS a question of whether States could leave the US after joining it.  The Civil War decided that.

But there was more to it than just Union vs States Rights.  The question the Federal Government had to face with the Southern States was about SLAVERY.  It was intrenched in all the politics from the 1830s on, and came to a head with the election of Lincoln.  HE didn't demand the Southern States eliminate slavery, BTW...

The Southern States decided that they had lost the Federal Government decision about slavery, so they left.  It was a hard time at first because most of the best generals were from the South (it having a military heritage), but when the North found some good ones (on the job training, as it were), the North crushed the South. 

It was sort of inevitable.  The North proved that industry and basic capitalism of free men beat the slave system of the South.  Well, that's how things go usually.  The better system wins.  The North had 21 million free people, and the South had 5.5 million free people and 3.5 million slaves (to whom they DARED not give guns.  And the industrialization of the North was SO much greater than the South's (exactly because of their slave culture). 

At the end, the North couldn't even figure out what to do with all the soldiers they had.  They sent many out west to subdue Indian tribes (And THERE is a tragedy worth being embarrassed about). 

But the South deserved what it got.  And I will argue, better treatment than they might have deserved.  Traitors were not rounded up and hanged.  They were welcomed back as "Brothers".  That SHOULD have gone a LONG way to patching things up. 

BUT NOOOO.  The South still writhes with anger wishing for the old days of having slaves.  I consider that desire disgusting and reprehensible.  I'll end this at that point.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 22, 2018, 06:32:44 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 21, 2018, 11:50:11 PM
Hmm...Free Soil seems like it'd be desirable if you wanted to limit Slaver States' power in national government, diminishing their power over time, and (hopefully) eventually phasing out slavery without making any overtly threatening moves against the slavers and triggering some sort of violent conflict.  Hopefully, none of the slavers will overreact and do something crazy like I dunno, assault a fort or something.

*edit - the Free Soilers were pretty subtle about their low-key opposition to slavery: "'Free Soil, Free Speech, Free Labor, and Free Men"

That was Lincoln's hope, but events took a turn for the worse.

No, the Civil war never decided anything.  Nothing is ever decided in history.  The D-secessionists are at it again in California for example.  Again, politics and economics are the reasons, but illegal immigrants are the causus belli.  How much of a vote does a Mexican get in American elections?  California needs it ag labor, same as the South.

Are there unreconstructed Southerners?  Yes.  Are there unreconstructed Yankees?  Yes.  Conflict is inevitable, the problem is what to do about it.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 22, 2018, 07:51:52 AM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 21, 2018, 11:23:53 PM

There were actually three factions at play, which could be seen in Bleeding Kansas.  One faction was of course the faction lined up behind slavery.  The second faction was the Free Soil faction that wanted slavery confined to the South.  They didn't want their labor to compete with slave labor.  They weren't abolitionist, they just didn't want the expansion of slavery, and they wanted it for personal selfish reasons.  The third faction was the Abolitionists, and they opposed slavery in itself and wanted to see it eliminated even from the South.
Opposing slavery on the grounds that it's bad economics?  This sounds like a paradox, except that I read somewhere that some Southern leaders, had actually come to that conclusion themselves.  Kansas didn't want to compete with other business that depended on slave labor.  I can understand that, except that Kansas could have solved the problem by buying slaves. 

I would guess that slavery was a benefit of wealth.  The losers that cannot compete with slave labor would not be large landowners and producers of products, but the white trash who would be jobless in the face of slave competition.  But it's an interesting part of the discussion that I had never heard of before.

Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Hydra009 on May 22, 2018, 08:28:52 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on May 22, 2018, 02:31:03 AM
I stand by my claim that the Southerns States only finally rebelled when they lost political control over the Federal Government.  The Northern States were gaining in population (even counting the Southern slaves as 3/5s who could of course not actuallt vote).  They knew they could only support their "peculiar institution" by controlling the Federal Government, and when Lincoln of the new Republican Party was elected, they had lost all control.

So, in a fit of High Pique, they decided to leave.
That's my impression as well.  Hence their abrupt departure from the USA following Lincoln's election.

QuoteIt was sort of inevitable.  The North proved that industry and basic capitalism of free men beat the slave system of the South.  Well, that's how things go usually.  The better system wins.
Ehh...the North had more troops, more factories, more miles of rail lines, etc.  Those sorts of factors tend to be more decisive in conflicts than whose economic system is better.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Cavebear on May 22, 2018, 08:31:37 AM
Quote from: SGOS on May 22, 2018, 07:51:52 AM
Opposing slavery on the grounds that it's bad economics?  This sounds like a paradox, except that I read somewhere that some Southern leaders, had actually come to that conclusion themselves.  Kansas didn't want to compete with other business that depended on slave labor.  I can understand that, except that Kansas could have solved the problem by buying slaves. 

I would guess that slavery was a benefit of wealth.  The losers that cannot compete with slave labor would not be large landowners and producers of products, but the white trash who would be jobless in the face of slave competition.  But it's an interesting part of the discussion that I had never heard of before.

I agree in general.  But buying slaves was never the solution.  As sad as it seems, it was tried and was not monetarily possible.  Straightout emancipation without compensation was the only way.  For the Southern slaveowners, ruination of what was built on the labor of slaves was the only possible outcome.  What they reaped by enforced labor had to be lost. 

It wasn't equal measure, no equal measure was possible for the cruelty and debasement of of people for 2 centuries.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Cavebear on May 22, 2018, 08:49:57 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 22, 2018, 08:28:52 AM
That's my impression as well.  Hence their abrupt departure from the USA following Lincoln's election.
Ehh...the North had more troops, more factories, more miles of rail lines, etc.  Those sorts of factors tend to be more decisive in conflicts than whose economic system is better.

When I lived in Massachusetts, I was taught the Civil War was all about slavery.  Then Dad got a promotion to Petersburg VA,  It didn't change my mind any (or of any of my family).  But I was forced to learn "the other side".  I never agreed, but I did come to understand the insanity of the Southern POV.  It was awkward (I was the only student from north of the Mason/Dixon Line).  Moving to MD after that was a relief.

I mean seriously, my class history notebook project HAD to include "Brave Southern Soldiers" on pain of automatic failure (that was made clear to me, "the unwanted Yankee kid").  With Mom's help, I did the least I could get away with in 1960.  I passed.   Dad was an engineer and completely oblivious to how we hated living in VA back then.

We finally escaped to MD in 1963 and while I have lived all around Washington DC since, I have never lived in VA.  Foreign territory...  Though I hear Northern VA is entering the 20th century lately.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 22, 2018, 08:56:59 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on May 22, 2018, 08:31:37 AM
I agree in general.  But buying slaves was never the solution.  As sad as it seems, it was tried and was not monetarily possible. 
Now I had read an argument somewhere that from an economic standpoint alone, slave labor was not the best approach to a strong economy, but I can't remember the reasoning.  Economic ideologies being the close cousins of politics and religion, they are argued that each one is superior to all the others.

Putting aside the greater issue of the inhumanity of slavery, and advancing the argument that slavery is a poor stand alone economic strategy by itself, why did the South feel slavery was vital to its economy?  Conversely, putting aside the plight of the Kansas white trash, why would Kansas disagree?

Specifically, what arguments can be made against slavery as a purely economic strategy?
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Cavebear on May 22, 2018, 09:35:35 AM
Quote from: SGOS on May 22, 2018, 08:56:59 AM
Now I had read an argument somewhere that from an economic standpoint alone, slave labor was not the best approach to a strong economy, but I can't remember the reasoning.  Economic ideologies being the close cousins of politics and religion, they are argued that each one is superior to all the others.

Putting aside the greater issue of the inhumanity of slavery, and advancing the argument that slavery is a poor stand alone economic strategy by itself, why did the South feel slavery was vital to its economy?  Conversely, putting aside the plight of the Kansas white trash, why would Kansas disagree?

Specifically, what arguments can be made against slavery as a purely economic strategy?

The disadvantages of the Southern US economy vs the Northern US economy seems sufficient.  But I will also suggest it is like entropy.  The economic strategy of slavery (in only those terms, not ethical ones) was based on only a few having many slaves while the majority of Southerners didn't.   It created a desire upwards and a downward economic pressure on the poor Southern whites  ("poor" economically, not "poor like "oh those sad people") - though they were).

In an economic sense, as proved by the Northern States and every other developed nation around the world at the time, slave labor does not produce general wealth.  In fact, as far as I can tell, it produced land-rich but monetary poverty all around except for a very few.  And that is no way to build a nation.  People working for themselves do better.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: SGOS on May 22, 2018, 04:01:12 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on May 22, 2018, 09:35:35 AM
The disadvantages of the Southern US economy vs the Northern US economy seems sufficient.  But I will also suggest it is like entropy.  The economic strategy of slavery (in only those terms, not ethical ones) was based on only a few having many slaves while the majority of Southerners didn't.   It created a desire upwards and a downward economic pressure on the poor Southern whites  ("poor" economically, not "poor like "oh those sad people") - though they were).

In an economic sense, as proved by the Northern States and every other developed nation around the world at the time, slave labor does not produce general wealth.  In fact, as far as I can tell, it produced land-rich but monetary poverty all around except for a very few.  And that is no way to build a nation.  People working for themselves do better.
That's the way I thought it would work also.  In order to have economic growth you need have people able to buy. Slaves can't buy anything, and the unused potential paid labor force can't either.  It's like the wealthy producing great quantities of product, but having few buyers.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 22, 2018, 08:37:39 PM
Quote from: SGOS on May 22, 2018, 08:56:59 AM
Now I had read an argument somewhere that from an economic standpoint alone, slave labor was not the best approach to a strong economy, but I can't remember the reasoning.  Economic ideologies being the close cousins of politics and religion, they are argued that each one is superior to all the others.

Putting aside the greater issue of the inhumanity of slavery, and advancing the argument that slavery is a poor stand alone economic strategy by itself, why did the South feel slavery was vital to its economy?  Conversely, putting aside the plight of the Kansas white trash, why would Kansas disagree?

Specifically, what arguments can be made against slavery as a purely economic strategy?

The Southern economy did almost fail, but cotton, and the cotton gin saved it.  That and the massive export of cotton to GB.  Originally slaves (who are expensive) were used to raise luxury goods (tobacco).  You can't make money off of corn, using slaves.  In the Deep South they also tried to use slaves to raise sugar cane (as they did in the Caribbean) ... but without the Federal sugar subsidy, it probably didn't pay for itself.  GB sent people (including Scots and Irish) to the sugar plantations, because it was Devil's Island for them.  Sugar was used to make rum (another luxury good).  But the sugar/rum economy failed circa 1800 after the rise of Cuban rum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_plantations_in_the_Caribbean
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on May 23, 2018, 12:40:29 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on May 22, 2018, 02:31:03 AM
I stand by my claim that the Southerns States only finally rebelled when they lost political control over the Federal Government.  The Northern States were gaining in population (even counting the Southern slaves as 3/5s who could of course not actuallt vote).

Of course.  With their demographic defeat they knew two things would happen.

1.  The Federalist / Whig / Republican platform of internal improvements would benefit the Northern states, because they are the majority.
2.  The taxes to pay for these improvements would be laid on the Southern states, because they are the minority.

Economics is powerful and subtle, and most politicians are idiots.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 23, 2018, 06:35:45 AM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 23, 2018, 12:40:29 AM
Of course.  With their demographic defeat they knew two things would happen.

1.  The Federalist / Whig / Republican platform of internal improvements would benefit the Northern states, because they are the majority.
2.  The taxes to pay for these improvements would be laid on the Southern states, because they are the minority.

Economics is powerful and subtle, and most politicians are idiots.

No, all people are political (says Aristotle).  And monkeys (says Darwin).  It is a wonder history has anything other than disasters.

The South was trying to escape this demographic problem by expanding their culture to Central America.  Ever hear of the first American President of Nicaragua?  William Walker.  Just extending the planation economy.  It was Cornelius Vanderbilt who stopped it, with his para militaries.  Blackwater isn't new.  Remember in public discourse, Ignorance is Strength!

Cavebear - yes, in NE you are taught propaganda favorable to your section of the country.  The kids should be made to watch The Crucible every year.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Cavebear on May 25, 2018, 02:32:12 AM
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 23, 2018, 12:40:29 AM
Of course.  With their demographic defeat they knew two things would happen.

1.  The Federalist / Whig / Republican platform of internal improvements would benefit the Northern states, because they are the majority.
2.  The taxes to pay for these improvements would be laid on the Southern states, because they are the minority.

Economics is powerful and subtle, and most politicians are idiots.

The South had opportunities for technological advancement, but refused them because they did not advance their slavery-oriented economic system.  In refusing those technological advancements (railroads, telegraphs, assembly-line work, interchangeable machine parts, free trade, multiple trade goods, efficient shipping (the fastest boats in the world were not called "Yankee Clippers" for no reason), etc.

The South had only cotton and tobacco, and depended on others to ship their raw materials overseas.  They were essentially a colony of England and France and the North who turned their raw products into higher value finished products like cloth. 

The South essentially doomed itself.  In hindsight, of course.  Yet, even if they had realized it, how could they have changed their economy and kept their slaves?  They couldn't let the slave economy go, because their social status depended on having slaves to work their fields and cater to their every whim in the manor. 

Well, gee, they could have freed the slaves and bought labor.  It worked everywhere else...
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 25, 2018, 08:32:15 AM
Cavebear ... partly true, happens with the establishment in every economic zone .. they try to enhance the status quo.  But the Yankees got help from reptilian aliens, and the South didn't ;-)  There is a canard, that the Romans didn't invent industrialism, because slaves were cheaper.  This is partly true, even though steam engines existed in Alexandria in Roman times.  There were a few labor saving machines in local areas, where slave labor wasn't available ... watermills in Gaul for example.  Slavery didn't become uncompetitive until the Black Death killed off half of Europe, driving up the value/cost of labor.  That is when the early industrial revolution (looms in Belgium and coal in Britain) got going.  Yes, looms were high tech in 1300.  Women traditionally didn't even have a spinning wheel, they used the distaff and spindle technique.  And knit or crocheted the yarn into cloth.  Machinery to help women didn't get going until late, because they are always freely available drudge labor (sorry ladies, but it is true).
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Cavebear on May 25, 2018, 02:00:36 PM
Quote from: Baruch on May 25, 2018, 08:32:15 AM
Cavebear ... partly true, happens with the establishment in every economic zone .. they try to enhance the status quo.  But the Yankees got help from reptilian aliens, and the South didn't ;-)  There is a canard, that the Romans didn't invent industrialism, because slaves were cheaper.  This is partly true, even though steam engines existed in Alexandria in Roman times.  There were a few labor saving machines in local areas, where slave labor wasn't available ... watermills in Gaul for example.  Slavery didn't become uncompetitive until the Black Death killed off half of Europe, driving up the value/cost of labor.  That is when the early industrial revolution (looms in Belgium and coal in Britain) got going.  Yes, looms were high tech in 1300.  Women traditionally didn't even have a spinning wheel, they used the distaff and spindle technique.  And knit or crocheted the yarn into cloth.  Machinery to help women didn't get going until late, because they are always freely available drudge labor (sorry ladies, but it is true).

Your problem is such that people on the Board COULD believe you saying there were aliens involved in the North's victory.  You bring it on yourself.

The slave labor ecomomy only made strictly economic sense when machines weren't available.  Every where machines replaced basic human labor, slavery died.  Only in the South did machinery (the cotton gin) not lead to the end of slavery.  No plantation owner could have afforded household slaves otherwise. 
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 25, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on May 25, 2018, 02:00:36 PM
Your problem is such that people on the Board COULD believe you saying there were aliens involved in the North's victory.  You bring it on yourself.

The slave labor ecomomy only made strictly economic sense when machines weren't available.  Every where machines replaced basic human labor, slavery died.  Only in the South did machinery (the cotton gin) not lead to the end of slavery.  No plantation owner could have afforded household slaves otherwise.

Economic sense isn't the only sense.  Slavery wasn't just economics, it was politics.  Most slaves came from war prisoners (including tribal warfare in Africa).  Very wealthy people could afford anything, even household slaves.  Jefferson had them.  But Jefferson also made out with his wife's half sister (who was half black) down in the kitchen of Monticello.  And he was bankrupt.  The Louisiana Purchase was brilliant, but that was the only good economic decision he made.
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Cavebear on May 29, 2018, 02:02:11 AM
Quote from: Baruch on May 25, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
Economic sense isn't the only sense.  Slavery wasn't just economics, it was politics.  Most slaves came from war prisoners (including tribal warfare in Africa).  Very wealthy people could afford anything, even household slaves.  Jefferson had them.  But Jefferson also made out with his wife's half sister (who was half black) down in the kitchen of Monticello.  And he was bankrupt.  The Louisiana Purchase was brilliant, but that was the only good economic decision he made.

You are making the false assumption that the origin of the slaves mattered after they arrived in the US.  Once here, it did not matter a leaf-fall if the slave arriving had been a war capture, a tribal criminal, a purchased Prince or Princess, or a shaman. 
Title: Re: Only 8% of High Schoolers Can Identify Slavery as Civil War's Root Issue
Post by: Baruch on May 29, 2018, 08:28:05 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on May 29, 2018, 02:02:11 AM
You are making the false assumption that the origin of the slaves mattered after they arrived in the US.  Once here, it did not matter a leaf-fall if the slave arriving had been a war capture, a tribal criminal, a purchased Prince or Princess, or a shaman.

But White people did it all, they didn't purchase war captives from African tribal chiefs, did they?  How inhumane!  Otherwise they would have been forced to sell the prisoners to Arab slave traders taking captives East.  Advanced nations have always used one form of slavery or other, they still do.