Atheistforums

Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Topic started by: Greatest I am on May 05, 2018, 11:06:33 AM

Title: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 05, 2018, 11:06:33 AM


Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Scholars think so and so do I.

 http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Scriptures warn against idol worship yet that is exactly what Christian and Muslims do.
 
If you can talk about or name your God, you are an idolater. Do you realize that?

God is often thought of as an ideal.

I think that atheists would also fit into the idolater description because they idolize the notion that there is no God and have chosen that as their ideal.

Agnostics seem to be the only ones who are not idolaters because, like Gnostic Christians, they do not mind saying, I don’t know or only speaking of things they know to be facts.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on May 05, 2018, 11:56:56 AM
I think you misunderstand atheism and agnosticism. Two answers to two different questions.
Atheists and theists can be gnostic and agnostic.
Though i doubt this is The first time you've been told this, i feel obliged to Bring it up.

In any case, i'm not familiar enough with islam to say they are isolators. But praying to Mekka does seem to imply so.
At least most christians are as Well. If you have a cross, you're already there.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 05, 2018, 12:23:40 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I think that atheists would also fit into the idolater description because they idolize the notion that there is no God and have chosen that as their ideal.

DL
I cannot speak for all atheists.  But for me that statement is absurd.  I don't 'idolize' anything (well, maybe the Yankees).  I don't believe in anything.  I base my disbelief in god(s) based on the fact that not one god has made his/her presence known.  Not a single piece of empirical evidence can be shown to prove god(s).  And yes, that lack of evidence is evidence of lack.  I do believe that Donald Duck is alive and well--prove me wrong.   
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Unbeliever on May 05, 2018, 02:09:09 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I think that atheists would also fit into the idolater description because they idolize the notion that there is no God and have chosen that as their ideal.

Agnostics seem to be the only ones who are not idolaters because, like Gnostic Christians, they do not mind saying, I don’t know or only speaking of things they know to be facts.

So, lacking belief in a deity is "idolizing" the notion of God's non-existence? So would my lack of belief in Santa Claus be an idolizing of the non-existence of Santa Claus?

This notion seems absurd to me.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Blackleaf on May 05, 2018, 02:15:09 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I think that atheists would also fit into the idolater description because they idolize the notion that there is no God and have chosen that as their ideal.

Wow. There's reaching and then there's complete incoherent nonsense.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 05, 2018, 03:01:25 PM
I would say ... mono-maniac ... that covers both theism and atheism.  You are so sure of something, that you ignore all contrary evidence.  Of course being a complete skeptic, a nihilist, sucks too.  I would say a nihilist is just another kind of mono-maniac.

Curb your enthusiasm but don't go into a coma.  Be modest in what you think is true or false.  Nothing in excess ... per Delphic Oracle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphic_maxims

The ancient Greeks would say, that going to extremes incarnates "hubris", which incites to jealousy, the Olympian gods, who arrange your well earned destruction.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 05, 2018, 03:02:14 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I cannot speak for all atheists.  But for me that statement is absurd.  I don't 'idolize' anything (well, maybe the Yankees).  I don't believe in anything.  I base my disbelief in god(s) based on the fact that not one god has made his/her presence known.  Not a single piece of empirical evidence can be shown to prove god(s).  And yes, that lack of evidence is evidence of lack.  I do believe that Donald Duck is alive and well--prove me wrong.

For some, everything is about epistemology ... what do you know (not believe) and how to you know it.  Not bad in itself, but taken to excess ...

GIA ... yes, all conventional religious people are idolaters.  Not that there is anything wrong with idolatry.  Mysticism or heresy can be its own problem too ... "my ain't I special" ... being all to common.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 05, 2018, 06:13:29 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
For some, everything is about epistemology ... what do you know (not believe) and how to you know it.  Not bad in itself, but taken to excess ...

Yeah, I do subscribe in the idea of moderation in everything.  And I suppose that epistemology can be taken to excess-----but how? 
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Hydra009 on May 05, 2018, 06:22:57 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Scholars think so and so do I.
It's pretty silly to accuse people who don't believe in a god of worshiping a physical object as if it were a god.  Belief in a god is kinda a prerequisite for that.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: aitm on May 05, 2018, 07:09:57 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?

Scholars think so and so do I.

 http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Scriptures warn against idol worship yet that is exactly what Christian and Muslims do.
 
If you can talk about or name your God, you are an idolater. Do you realize that?

God is often thought of as an ideal.

I think that atheists would also fit into the idolater description because they idolize the notion that there is no God and have chosen that as their ideal.

Agnostics seem to be the only ones who are not idolaters because, like Gnostic Christians, they do not mind saying, I don’t know or only speaking of things they know to be facts.

Regards
DL



so…..only those 3 meet the criteria? Seems like we could expand that by about a thousand and easily leave atheists out of it completely. Ever hear of Hindu? Meh….when you fail at the first shot, only the idiots leave you a second chance. Sorry….you lose.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: SGOS on May 05, 2018, 07:11:50 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Are Christians, Muslims and atheists idolaters?
Scholars think so and so do I.
Quote
Not all scholars.  You might find one from Liberty University if your are Hell bent on thinking they are actual scholars.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I think that atheists would also fit into the idolater description because they idolize the notion that there is no God and have chosen that as their ideal.
What you think is based on the not knowing what you are talking about.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Agnostics seem to be the only ones who are not idolaters because, like Gnostic Christians, they do not mind saying, I don’t know or only speaking of things they know to be facts.
What it seems to you is based on an incorrect definition of Gnostic.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 05, 2018, 07:42:52 PM
Apologies to MikeCl:  I cannot speak for all atheists.  But for me that statement is absurd.  I don't 'idolize' anything (well, maybe the Nationals).  ;)

But I do not idolize anything.  I like cats and think they exist (rather a lot of evidence here).  I could form an image of one from wet clay (badly).  That clay model would exist but not as an idol.  I did meet a lady on "Lonely Atheists" once who (it turned out) actually DID worship cats.  Apparently, her parents told her her only chance at marriage was to find an atheist.  Was THAT all sick or what?

Notice how deftly I changed the subject...  LOL!
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 05, 2018, 08:16:01 PM
Cavebear, I don't root against the Nationals.  I sort of feel sorry for them--they seemed to have inherited the genes of their forerunners, the Expos.  They just can't win for some reason.  Not even Harper can seem to push them over the hump.  I mean a team with Tim Raines, Larry Walker and Steve Rogers couldn't win it all either--should have at least once.  Good luck, except against the Giants or Yankees. :))
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Unbeliever on May 05, 2018, 08:16:15 PM
This televangelist says that freedom of religion only applies to Christianity:



Quote
On his radio program yesterday, the American Family Association’s Bryan Fischer declared, once again, that only Christianity is protected by the First Amendment and that all non-Christians—including Jews, Muslims and Native Americans—have no constitutionally guaranteed right to freely practice their faiths.

Fischer, who routinely puts forward a completely incoherent theory regarding the meaning of the First Amendment, was discussing a case involving a North Carolina inmate who is suing for the right to practice Wicca when he declared that “worshipers of the devil” and all other non-Christian faiths are not entitled to First Amendment protections...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM3JgsH_fPE


And yet, it's the Christians who are being oppressed by us God-forsaken atheists.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Blackleaf on May 05, 2018, 08:20:03 PM
Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. That applies to all claims, no matter how much you want your unsupported claim to be true. As they say, pics or it didn't happen.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 05, 2018, 08:23:04 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Cavebear, I don't root against the Nationals.  I sort of feel sorry for them--they seemed to have inherited the genes of their forerunners, the Expos.  They just can't win for some reason.  Not even Harper can seem to push them over the hump.  I mean a team with Tim Raines, Larry Walker and Steve Rogers couldn't win it all either--should have at least once.  Good luck, except against the Giants or Yankees. :))

We are without 2 of our starters and faced the coldest schedule in April.  The Nationals just won 5 of 6.

See your guys in October, I hope.  ;)
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 05, 2018, 08:27:48 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. That applies to all claims, no matter how much you want your unsupported claim to be true. As they say, pics or it didn't happen.

The problem to be overcome is that some people dismiss evidence that does not accord with their version on reality even when it IS evidence.  They claim "fake news" or "liar". The object of my post was to suggest a way to engage people in the process of looking at evidence that they themselves consider meaningful.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 05, 2018, 08:31:23 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
We are without 2 of our starters and faced the coldest schedule in April.  The Nationals just won 5 of 6.

See your guys in October, I hope.  ;)
That would be fun.  Not worried about the Nats right now.  It is a long season.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: SGOS on May 06, 2018, 06:12:10 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
This televangelist says that freedom of religion only applies to Christianity:

On his radio program yesterday, the American Family Association’s Bryan Fischer declared, once again, that only Christianity is protected by the First Amendment and that all non-Christians—including Jews, Muslims and Native Americans—have no constitutionally guaranteed right to freely practice their faiths.

And yet, it's the Christians who are being oppressed by us God-forsaken atheists.
How can Christians not understand freedom of religion?  If it was just one Christian, I could write that off.  This has been going on long enough that they should all understand by now how the concept works.  It's not freedom of Christianity.  It's freedom of religion.  But they can't seem to stop thinking they're more special than everyone else.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: GSOgymrat on May 06, 2018, 08:07:14 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How can Christians not understand freedom of religion?  If it was just one Christian, I could write that off.  This has been going on long enough that they should all understand by now how the concept works.  It's not freedom of Christianity.  It's freedom of religion.  But they can't seem to stop thinking they're more special than everyone else.

Some American Christians believe freedom of religion means freedom to choose a denomination of Christianity.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: SGOS on May 06, 2018, 08:38:19 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Some American Christians believe freedom of religion means freedom to choose a denomination of Christianity.
Yes, that's how I wished I would have written it.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 06, 2018, 08:39:20 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Some American Christians believe freedom of religion means freedom to choose a denomination of Christianity.

That is what it was originally.  But Washington was pro-Jewish, because of Freemasonry.  We have moved on.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 06, 2018, 08:41:36 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How can Christians not understand freedom of religion?  If it was just one Christian, I could write that off.  This has been going on long enough that they should all understand by now how the concept works.  It's not freedom of Christianity.  It's freedom of religion.  But they can't seem to stop thinking they're more special than everyone else.

In Israel, atheist cultural Judaism dominates.  So conform or be punished.  In the US, materialist cultural Christianity dominates.  So conform or be punished.  How come, dissenters etc from whatever society they live in, don't get that the majority are not going to support your deviance?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 06, 2018, 08:42:38 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. That applies to all claims, no matter how much you want your unsupported claim to be true. As they say, pics or it didn't happen.

And pics can be easily faked.  So don't believe in anything, particularly if a politician is talking to you ;-)
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 06, 2018, 08:44:04 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It's pretty silly to accuse people who don't believe in a god of worshiping a physical object as if it were a god.  Belief in a god is kinda a prerequisite for that.

Give all your filthy lucre to me ... I need it more than you ;-))
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 06, 2018, 08:45:30 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Yeah, I do subscribe in the idea of moderation in everything.  And I suppose that epistemology can be taken to excess-----but how?

You are a prime example, patient zero.  Like Wimpy, who only ate hamburgers.  But you are free to do that (free thought if not free action).  Unbeliever might be a better example.  Perhaps you two should fight it out?  Who can be the most nihilist.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: SGOS on May 06, 2018, 08:48:24 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How come, dissenters etc from whatever society they live in, don't get that the majority are not going to support your deviance?
How come the majority etc from whatever society you live in, don't realize when they are acting like idiots?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 06, 2018, 08:57:01 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How come the majority etc from whatever society you live in, don't realize when they are acting like idiots?

You don't accept evolution.  We are monkeys.  Don't expect much from that.

There are no Poindexters (Brites etc) just pretentious monkeys.  But are you really Mandark?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 06, 2018, 10:16:10 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are a prime example, patient zero.  Like Wimpy, who only ate hamburgers.  But you are free to do that (free thought if not free action).  Unbeliever might be a better example.  Perhaps you two should fight it out?  Who can be the most nihilist.
That was an answer?  Let me ask again.  Epistemology is the search for knowledge.  How can that be taken to excess?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 06, 2018, 10:55:07 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That was an answer?  Let me ask again.  Epistemology is the search for knowledge.  How can that be taken to excess?

You can seek knowledge.  But you can't easily find it, because monkeys can't.  Well, because truth in general, and even facts, are slippery things, particularly expressed in any human language.

And per Delphi ... "nothing in excess".  But then the Greeks were evil White people, right?  After all, they invented what we now call epistemology, because they invented what we now call philosophy.

Epistemology as your only thing, means you neglect metaphysics, logic and axiology (ethics and aesthetics).  If you do something to 100% (excess), then how can you have any time for the other parts of philosophy?  How can you have any life for non-philosophy left over?

For example, if you take baseball fandom to excess, you will forget to eat, drink and defecate ... and die.  What we are defining psychologically, is mono-mania.

Epistemology has developed from the time of Aristotle ... who didn't have much experimental science (Archimedes did that) and who didn't have much math (Euclid did that).  But say by 200 BCE ... it was pretty well developed, if not practiced much.  In Alexandria, they invented steam engines and other mechanical contrivances.  Even special purpose analog computers (in gears, like Babbage).  But it was hard to make any progress while the Romans were busy robbing, raping and killing.

And then the barbarians got better at robbing, raping and killing than the Romans.  Political-economics trumps science and technology, until the powers-that-be realized that science and technology can help them increase their power (see nuclear weapons).  The effete Europeans continued on with the LSC.  But the US cancelled the SSC in the early 90s, because they realized that it wasn't going to help them (peak nuclear science), but they did push the Internet (which as a technology is a god-send for the State and for tyranny).
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 06, 2018, 02:01:05 PM
Okay, got ya.  Yeah, I try to make epistemology as a guide and not a passion.  Not excess.  When I was younger and as a working person, I was much more active in pursuit of knowledge.  Now I am much more in pursuit of contentment.  Knowledge collection came from without; contentment is within.  Not concerned with happy---contentment is much more attainable.  The key to contentment is tied to coffee and taking a dump--when both are done early in the morning, contentment is much more easily attained.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 07, 2018, 12:26:23 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I think you misunderstand atheism and agnosticism. Two answers to two different questions.
Atheists and theists can be gnostic and agnostic.
.

Dictionaries are now beginning to blend the terms with gnostic atheist and agnostic theists, etc., so I just KIS and call them all ideologies, including your belief system, whatever it might be.

You put your ideology as supreme and idolize it, which makes you and most people idolaters.

Regards
DL 
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 07, 2018, 12:29:57 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I cannot speak for all atheists.  But for me that statement is absurd.  I don't 'idolize' anything (well, maybe the Yankees).  I don't believe in anything.  I base my disbelief in god(s) based on the fact that not one god has made his/her presence known.  Not a single piece of empirical evidence can be shown to prove god(s).  And yes, that lack of evidence is evidence of lack.  I do believe that Donald Duck is alive and well--prove me wrong.   

No can do, but you seem quite attached to your thinking system/ideology, to the point of idolizing it enough to push it here.

That applies to all ideologies I think except the Gnostic Christian ideology that always seeks to raise the bar of whatever we hold as an ideology at present.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 07, 2018, 12:33:16 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
So, lacking belief in a deity is "idolizing" the notion of God's non-existence? So would my lack of belief in Santa Claus be an idolizing of the non-existence of Santa Claus?

This notion seems absurd to me.

Yes to your question if it truly is a part of your ideology.

This might be a good place to put what follows but I hope you read the replies I put above. This is not the easiest idea to sell.

What is idolized is the thinking you hold supreme. If an atheist, you hold your atheism thinking supreme. You are an idolater.

 Break that logic trail if you can.

 This link might drive my point home. Ignore the tail end preaching and think of the definition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkZg1ZflpJs



 Regards
 DL



Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 07, 2018, 12:36:25 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Wow. There's reaching and then there's complete incoherent nonsense.

Small minds say that. Please read what I have put above.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 07, 2018, 12:38:05 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I would say ... mono-maniac ... that covers both theism and atheism.  You are so sure of something, that you ignore all contrary evidence.  Of course being a complete skeptic, a nihilist, sucks too.  I would say a nihilist is just another kind of mono-maniac.

Curb your enthusiasm but don't go into a coma.  Be modest in what you think is true or false.  Nothing in excess ... per Delphic Oracle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphic_maxims

The ancient Greeks would say, that going to extremes incarnates "hubris", which incites to jealousy, the Olympian gods, who arrange your well earned destruction.

Indeed, but I am here to lose arguments and being cock sure is a good way to get firm opposition.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 07, 2018, 12:41:23 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
For some, everything is about epistemology ... what do you know (not believe) and how to you know it.  Not bad in itself, but taken to excess ...

GIA ... yes, all conventional religious people are idolaters.  Not that there is anything wrong with idolatry.  Mysticism or heresy can be its own problem too ... "my ain't I special" ... being all to common.

Gnostic Christians, as perpetual seeking wishing to evolve their beliefs, tend not to fall into "my ain't I special" thinking.

We are never satisfied with our ideology and raise the bar of excellence whenever we thing we have the best. We are never satisfied.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 07, 2018, 12:44:37 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It's pretty silly to accuse people who don't believe in a god of worshiping a physical object as if it were a god.  Belief in a god is kinda a prerequisite for that.

It is not an object that people idolize. It is their thinking process and ideology that is put above all else.

For the bigger explanation, please read what I have put above so that I do not have to get too repetitious.

Regards
DL



Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 07, 2018, 01:06:22 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
This televangelist says that freedom of religion only applies to Christianity:

And yet, it's the Christians who are being oppressed by us God-forsaken atheists.

Trade ya.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UTdKxCz2FIQ

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 07, 2018, 01:10:15 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. That applies to all claims, no matter how much you want your unsupported claim to be true. As they say, pics or it didn't happen.

Hmm.

If your a Yank, you might be thankful that your thinking did not prevail when Paul Revere rode through yelling that the British were coming.

You might be speaking with a British accent. --- Mate.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 07, 2018, 01:13:18 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How can Christians not understand freedom of religion?  If it was just one Christian, I could write that off.  This has been going on long enough that they should all understand by now how the concept works.  It's not freedom of Christianity.  It's freedom of religion.  But they can't seem to stop thinking they're more special than everyone else.

If Christians and Muslims were interested in freedom of religion for all, Inquisitions and Jihads would not exist.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: trdsf on May 07, 2018, 01:13:44 PM
Idolatry by definition means the adoration, veneration and/or worship of some sort of physical representation -- a painting, a statue, that sort of thing.  You're playing this game of using common terms in non-standard ways again.

Anyway, atheists are not and can not be, by mere dint of being atheists, idolators.  Individual atheists may or may not have their own little obsessions, but that's separate and not applicable to atheists as a class.

I aspire to applying rationalism to all things, but that's completely different from fetishizing the Great Goddess Clara Rationalia, Our Lady of Perpetual Comprehension (can you tell I was raised Roman Catholic?).

It's worth pointing out that one's own religion has "holy relics" and "meditation objects" and "icons".  "Idols" are always in someone else's religion.  So the "holy relics" and "meditation objects" and "icons" are all idols too, from outside their religions.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 07, 2018, 01:18:23 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How come the majority etc from whatever society you live in, don't realize when they are acting like idiots?

Like religions, it is called organized schizophrenia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNSe4Ff57n4&feature=player_embedded

Or, mob rule, right or wrong.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 07, 2018, 01:24:25 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Idolatry by definition means the adoration, veneration and/or worship of some sort of physical representation -- a painting, a statue, that sort of thing.  You're playing this game of using common terms in non-standard ways again.

Anyway, atheists are not and can not be, by mere dint of being atheists, idolators.  Individual atheists may or may not have their own little obsessions, but that's separate and not applicable to atheists as a class.

I aspire to applying rationalism to all things, but that's completely different from fetishizing the Great Goddess Clara Rationalia, Our Lady of Perpetual Comprehension (can you tell I was raised Roman Catholic?).

It's worth pointing out that one's own religion has "holy relics" and "meditation objects" and "icons".  "Idols" are always in someone else's religion.  So the "holy relics" and "meditation objects" and "icons" are all idols too, from outside their religions.

Guilty as charged of using the KIS system.

Please see post 33 in particular but do read some of my other replies please.

Physical icons are one thing, but your mental picture of whatever your ideology is also just a representation/icon, in a sense.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: trdsf on May 07, 2018, 03:42:35 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Physical icons are one thing, but your mental picture of whatever your ideology is also just a representation/icon, in a sense.
No, it's just not.  And do not tell me how I view myself.  You're not inside my head to know.

My ideology, my philosophy, my outlook are the framework through which I process the world -- and all of which are subject to verification as best as possible against reality.  None of them are concrete-set and protected against change; change is required for growth.

Also, do you have any idea how smug and self-aggrandizing that is to claim 'it affects everyone's ideology but mine' in the post you referenced?  I have to ask, because I genuinely don't think you do.  I'm sorry, but you are not an objective point of reference.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Blackleaf on May 07, 2018, 03:43:28 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Small minds say that. Please read what I have put above.

Regards
DL

I did. It's still nonsense. You're stretching definitions to try to make atheists equivalent to theists. That is neither honest nor persuasive.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hmm.

If your a Yank, you might be thankful that your thinking did not prevail when Paul Revere rode through yelling that the British were coming.

You might be speaking with a British accent. --- Mate.

Regards
DL

Actually, he didn't. Ironically, your lack of skepticism has led you to another false conclusion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx15T7C0UaY
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 07, 2018, 03:50:15 PM
An even smaller mind than I thought.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Blackleaf on May 07, 2018, 03:55:21 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
An even smaller mind than I thought.

Regards
DL

I have no doubt about my ability for critical thinking. Virtually everything you say calls yours into question, however.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on May 07, 2018, 05:03:38 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Dictionaries are now beginning to blend the terms with gnostic atheist and agnostic theists, etc., so I just KIS and call them all ideologies, including your belief system, whatever it might be.

You put your ideology as supreme and idolize it, which makes you and most people idolaters.

Regards
DL

You just what? KIS? I have no idea what that means.
Also, if you're going to disregard the meaning of words and fill them in as you see fit, you're welcome to call me whatever you want. However, I won't be sure what you mean.

Also, good thing you know me so well. I guess. For a second there I was afraid I might have to think for myself ;)

Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Blackleaf on May 07, 2018, 05:37:30 PM
(https://www.cats.org.uk/uploads/images/featurebox_sidebar_kids/grief-and-loss.jpg)

See this? This is a cat.

(https://www.petinsurance.com/images/VSSimages/consumer/v5/banner_dog_insurance.jpg)

This is also a cat. They both have four legs, two eyes, two ears, one tail, so they're basically the same thing.

(https://co0069yjui-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Lizard-1000x520.jpg)

This is a hairless cat. It has all the same features as the other two, but calls itself a "lizard" because it thinks it's better than other cats. This is about as intelligent as arguments over semantics get.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 07, 2018, 05:38:21 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It is not an object that people idolize. It is their thinking process and ideology that is put above all else.

For the bigger explanation, please read what I have put above so that I do not have to get too repetitious.

Regards
DL

Or idea fixe and confirmation bias?  I think the word gets in the way of what you are saying.

Blackleaf .. per Genesis, Adam named all the animals, but he hadn't tasted the apple yet, so he did it all wrong.  G-d was just messing with him ;-)
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 07, 2018, 05:39:07 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Dictionaries are now beginning to blend the terms with gnostic atheist and agnostic theists, etc., so I just KIS and call them all ideologies, including your belief system, whatever it might be.

You put your ideology as supreme and idolize it, which makes you and most people idolaters.

Regards
DL

KIS = Keep It Simple?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 07, 2018, 05:41:38 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Gnostic Christians, as perpetual seeking wishing to evolve their beliefs, tend not to fall into "my ain't I special" thinking.

We are never satisfied with our ideology and raise the bar of excellence whenever we thing we have the best. We are never satisfied.

Regards
DL

Secular people evolve too, only with materialism as a basis.  I am atoms.  I am no more than a rock or a chair (which formed spontaneously per QFT).  They think that better material science (and it is a good thing) is the only thing.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 07, 2018, 05:43:14 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
No, it's just not.  And do not tell me how I view myself.  You're not inside my head to know.

My ideology, my philosophy, my outlook are the framework through which I process the world -- and all of which are subject to verification as best as possible against reality.  None of them are concrete-set and protected against change; change is required for growth.

Also, do you have any idea how smug and self-aggrandizing that is to claim 'it affects everyone's ideology but mine' in the post you referenced?  I have to ask, because I genuinely don't think you do.  I'm sorry, but you are not an objective point of reference.

A collection of monkeys isn't an objective point of reference either.  Monkeys writing a dictionary don't a language make.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 07, 2018, 07:09:05 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You just what? KIS? I have no idea what that means.
Also, if you're going to disregard the meaning of words and fill them in as you see fit, you're welcome to call me whatever you want. However, I won't be sure what you mean.

Also, good thing you know me so well. I guess. For a second there I was afraid I might have to think for myself ;)



KIS is Keep It Simple. It used to be Keep it simple stupid.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 07, 2018, 07:13:05 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Or idea fixe and confirmation bias?  I think the word gets in the way of what you are saying.

Blackleaf .. per Genesis, Adam named all the animals, but he hadn't tasted the apple yet, so he did it all wrong.  G-d was just messing with him ;-)

True. Many read in what they want to read and not what is written.

Eden is a good example where the Jews read an elevation for man while Christians read a fall for us.

Jews are a lot brighter than Christians, generally speaking. That might be why there is so much hate directed towards such a small % of the population.
 
Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 07, 2018, 07:16:11 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Secular people evolve too, only with materialism as a basis.  I am atoms.  I am no more than a rock or a chair (which formed spontaneously per QFT).  They think that better material science (and it is a good thing) is the only thing.

I hear you. We have forgotten to import the better of the ideological positions for people and shifted the focus to cash. That may be part of why the U.S. is turning from the American Dream to the American nightmare.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 07, 2018, 08:14:22 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You just what? KIS? I have no idea what that means.
Also, if you're going to disregard the meaning of words and fill them in as you see fit, you're welcome to call me whatever you want. However, I won't be sure what you mean.

Also, good thing you know me so well. I guess. For a second there I was afraid I might have to think for myself ;)
I'd assume it is the Keep It Simple, system.  But in his case, I think it really is KISS--keep it simple stupid.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 07, 2018, 08:32:05 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
KIS is Keep It Simple. It used to be Keep it simple stupid.

Regards
DL

In America, we are still stupid ... so it is still KISS over here
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 07, 2018, 09:55:53 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
No can do, but you seem quite attached to your thinking system/ideology, to the point of idolizing it enough to push it here.

That applies to all ideologies I think except the Gnostic Christian ideology that always seeks to raise the bar of whatever we hold as an ideology at present.

Regards
DL
I seem 'quite attached' to my thinking?  You are suggesting that I am and you are not?????  :)))  Okay.  You  really seem attached to label all as idolizing a way of thinking.  Seems to me you are low crawling toward your idol of christ (you insist you are a christian of some sort so you must have a belief in some sort of christ) kis--ing its boots.  Idolize whatever it is you want to.  But you don't really know what I think, much less what I may or may not idolize (depending upon which definition you want to use).  Actually, I am attached to my way of thinking.  Why should I not be attached?  I have spent a lifetime trying to figure out what to think and how to act on that thinking.  But I have not reached perfection and am always ready to change my way of thinking if facts or data suggest I should do so.  And I'm always ready to change my mind and way of thinking. 

And any form of christianity cannot, almost by definition, seek to 'raise the bar' (whatever that means) toward anything other than trying to prove any christ is actual or factual.  How about a new label--the Christ of Ego.  You seem to have that in spades!
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 05:44:38 AM
Time for a straight-forward statement here, I suppose...  Have to clear the air occasionally.

All theisms are false and equally false.  Atheism is no more a "theism" than bald is a hair color.  I am an atheist.  I hope that settles things a bit...
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 09, 2018, 09:01:13 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
In America, we are still stupid ... so it is still KISS over here

I wish I did not have to agree.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 09:02:52 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I wish I did not have to agree.

Regards
DL

Oh my, agree with Baruch all you want.  That won't impress atheists any...
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 09, 2018, 09:04:00 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I seem 'quite attached' to my thinking?  You are suggesting that I am and you are not?????  :)))  Okay.  You  really seem attached to label all as idolizing a way of thinking.  Seems to me you are low crawling toward your idol of christ (you insist you are a christian of some sort so you must have a belief in some sort of christ) kis--ing its boots.  Idolize whatever it is you want to.  But you don't really know what I think, much less what I may or may not idolize (depending upon which definition you want to use).  Actually, I am attached to my way of thinking.  Why should I not be attached?  I have spent a lifetime trying to figure out what to think and how to act on that thinking.  But I have not reached perfection and am always ready to change my way of thinking if facts or data suggest I should do so.  And I'm always ready to change my mind and way of thinking. 

And any form of christianity cannot, almost by definition, seek to 'raise the bar' (whatever that means) toward anything other than trying to prove any christ is actual or factual.  How about a new label--the Christ of Ego.  You seem to have that in spades!

Do not try so hard to be a wise assed prick.

If you change your tune, then I will respond to you.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 09, 2018, 09:24:10 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Do not try so hard to be a wise assed prick.



Regards
DL
:))))))  Have you said that lately, while looking in the mirror???? :)))))))
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 09, 2018, 09:25:37 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If you change your tune, then I will respond to you.

Regards
DL

Oh!  You would stoop so low as to respond to little ole me??????  Wow!!  Whoopty fucking do!
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Gilgamesh on May 09, 2018, 09:43:52 AM
Some - probably most - atheists idolise people, and it wouldn't be a stretch to say some of them idolise atheism itself. Most people are stupid, - like really fucking stupid - atheists included.

Atheist boards specifically are filled to the bring with dogmatic anti-intellectuals who all fancy themselves skeptics because they realised religion is a sham. Just take a look at this thread. This isn't how intelligent people speak. This is how people speak when they're fucking retards with a huge egos based in the singular conviction that they are enlightened.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 10:00:51 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Some - probably most - atheists idolise people, and it wouldn't be a stretch to say some of them idolise atheism itself. Most people are stupid, - like really fucking stupid - atheists included.

Atheist boards specifically are filled to the bring with dogmatic anti-intellectuals who all fancy themselves skeptics because they realised religion is a sham. Just take a look at this thread. This isn't how intelligent people speak. This is how people speak when they're fucking retards with a huge egos based in the singular conviction that they are enlightened.

Um, you DO realize that "atheists" are "intellectual" by fact so aren't "anti-intellectual" and that theists are faith-based and so are not "intellectual"?

But I will agree with you that "This isn't how intelligent people speak".  Intelligent people don't support undemonstrated superstitious beliefs.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Gilgamesh on May 09, 2018, 10:08:16 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Um, you DO realize that "atheists" are "intellectual" by fact so aren't "anti-intellectual" and that theists are faith-based and so are not "intellectual"?

I genuinely laughed out loud holy fuck.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 10:13:26 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I genuinely laughed out loud holy fuck.

LOL is good sometimes.  But let's explore why you did.  Atheism is almost by definition an intellectual position while theism is defined by faith.  Now, if you would like to argue about THAT, feel free.  But do try to do more than snort your middle-school juice out your nose this time. 

IOW, actually provide an counter-argument if you can.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Blackleaf on May 09, 2018, 10:56:00 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
LOL is good sometimes.  But let's explore why you did.  Atheism is almost by definition an intellectual position while theism is defined by faith.  Now, if you would like to argue about THAT, feel free.  But do try to do more than snort your middle-school juice out your nose this time. 

IOW, actually provide an counter-argument if you can.

Atheists are not necessarily intelligent, and theists--while they have to go through mental gymnastics to justify their beliefs--can be intelligent. But yes, the atheist position is the intellectually honest position. In the pursuit of truth, falsifiability is very important. While it may seem like backwards thinking, scientists go to great lengths to prove themselves wrong. It's only when they've successfully accounted for enough alternative explanations that they can say that they've disproven the null hypothesis (the opposite statement of the hypothesis). If a claim cannot conceivably be proven wrong, then it is intellectually dishonest to claim that it is true. Gods are such claims that are unfalsifiable, and therefore dismissible.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 11:36:47 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Atheists are not necessarily intelligent, and theists--while they have to go through mental gymnastics to justify their beliefs--can be intelligent. But yes, the atheist position is the intellectually honest position. In the pursuit of truth, falsifiability is very important. While it may seem like backwards thinking, scientists go to great lengths to prove themselves wrong. It's only when they've successfully accounted for enough alternative explanations that they can say that they've disproven the null hypothesis (the opposite statement of the hypothesis). If a claim cannot conceivably be proven wrong, then it is intellectually dishonest to claim that it is true. Gods are such claims that are unfalsifiable, and therefore dismissible.

Where is the "LIKE" button?  I would click on it for this post.  Hurray!

Found it.  It wasn't there briefly.

Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 09, 2018, 01:16:21 PM
Now you can't "like" it, I already did, it now has cooties ;-)
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Unbeliever on May 09, 2018, 01:35:50 PM
A coterie of cooties?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 09, 2018, 02:13:35 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Some - probably most - atheists idolise people, and it wouldn't be a stretch to say some of them idolise atheism itself. Most people are stupid, - like really fucking stupid - atheists included.

Atheist boards specifically are filled to the bring with dogmatic anti-intellectuals who all fancy themselves skeptics because they realised religion is a sham. Just take a look at this thread. This isn't how intelligent people speak. This is how people speak when they're fucking retards with a huge egos based in the singular conviction that they are enlightened.

That is what happens when, most if not all the time, people idolize their belief systems.

All become recalcitrant.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 02:28:35 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That is what happens when, most if not all the time, people idolize their belief systems.

All become recalcitrant.

Regards
DL
Atheism is a belief system like bald is a hair color.  That bears repetition.  Too many people confuse lack of belief in a claim for a version of the claim they don't like.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 09, 2018, 02:35:51 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Atheism is a belief system like bald is a hair color.  That bears repetition.  Too many people confuse lack of belief in a claim for a version of the claim they don't like.

If atheism is not a belief system or ideology, what does it mean to label ones self an atheist?

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Gilgamesh on May 09, 2018, 02:51:52 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If atheism is not a belief system or ideology, what does it mean to label ones self an atheist?

Regards
DL

That they lack belief in a god.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 03:09:08 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That they lack belief in a god.

"Lack" implies a failure.  I wouldn't put it that way.

Rather, we atheists simply do not have unprovable thoughts.  Like, I don't believe in unicorns, leprachauns, or hobbits.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Unbeliever on May 09, 2018, 03:19:12 PM
We simply have no need of that hypothesis.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 03:26:03 PM
Oh, I think I get it.  If I "reply", there are no "likes" right?  Tell me if I'm wrong though please...
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 09, 2018, 03:54:01 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If atheism is not a belief system or ideology, what does it mean to label ones self an atheist?

Regards
DL
The reason I use that label is for clarity and honesty.  I don't find any reason to think that a god(s) (or anything supernatural) is real.  I have found no data or reasons to support the 'belief' that god(s) exist.  Atheism is not an ideology for me either, for it is simply a statement that lets others know that I don't think anything supernatural exists.  being atheist does not come with a set of ways to think or what to think.  If I know a person is atheistic then I know they don't think god(s) exist, but that's all.  Cavebear is atheistic but that does not inform me as to any stances he has on any other subject.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 04:39:04 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If atheism is not a belief system or ideology, what does it mean to label ones self an atheist?

Regards
DL
That seems easy enough.  I label myself an "atheist" because I have no "theist" views".   In ancient Greek, "a" meant "not" (apolitical, agnosticetc),

Without theisms, there would by no atheists.  We didn't create the idea.  Until some damned fool idiot got the first idea of some natural deity, EVERYONE was an atheist, but there was no need for the label as there was no "theism" before then.  Like, are you an  abrogismist"?  Of course not, so long as there re no brogismists.   Only WHEN there are active proponents of "broglism" can there be people who aren't. 

They didn't go around thinking "I'm a abroglimist" before then  It was only when someone said they were a "broglimist" and someone else said "well I don't think I am one" that there were "abroglimists".

Same with atheists and theists.  Atheists didn't start the idea of NOT being theists.  Someone else had the idea of beings "theists" and some other people just weren't.  So they were (after) hot-theists (ie, "atheists").

And, for that reason, thereby hangs the tail of "proof".  Theism was the new idea, and therefore the burden of proof of the idea is on the theists.  As an atheist, I don't have to prove a thing, just as the broglimists would have to give proof t the people who were not broglamists that their new idea was true.

So, prove your "Broglism" idea...  It's not my burden to disprove it.



Does that make sense, or do I need to use shorter words?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Unbeliever on May 09, 2018, 04:43:59 PM
"The atheist does not say," There is no God", but he says, "I know not what you mean by God"; the word God is to me a sound conveying no clear or distinct affirmation."
Charles Bradlaugh

The word "God" can mean so many different things that it really means nothing at all.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 09, 2018, 04:49:48 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"The atheist does not say," There is no God", but he says, "I know not what you mean by God"; the word God is to me a sound conveying no clear or distinct affirmation."
Charles Bradlaugh

The word "God" can mean so many different things that it really means nothing at all.

That's a reason I refer to "deities".  "God" is too specific to many theists.  Make sense now?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: trdsf on May 09, 2018, 10:33:56 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If atheism is not a belief system or ideology, what does it mean to label ones self an atheist?
It means that the individual who self-labels as an atheist does not find claims that there exists any sort of divine or supernatural power, entity, or authority, in the singular or plural to be convincing.  No more, no less.

It's not an ideology: there are liberal atheists, conservative atheists, socialist atheists, capitalist atheists, monarchist atheists, anarchist atheists, social libertarian atheists, economic libertarian atheists, and apolitical atheists.

It's not a belief system, unless you happen to think that not collecting coins is as much a hobby as collecting coins, and that celibacy is a sex position like missionary, 69, and reverse cowgirl (or boy, as the case may be).

It's the simple statement that the burden of proof for claims of any deity has not been met.  Not that they cannot be met under any circumstances, but that so far they have not been met, and that the individual is until then under no obligation to even tentatively accept the claim.

I mean, it's pretty straightforward.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 09, 2018, 11:04:20 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That they lack belief in a god.

I lack 4 arms ... only got 2, but I don't think I am special.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 09, 2018, 11:05:28 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That is what happens when, most if not all the time, people idolize their belief systems.

All become recalcitrant.

Regards
DL

But atheists don't believe in gods, they are not nihilists, who believe in nothing.  They are just on the path to becoming nihilists.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 09, 2018, 11:06:37 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
We simply have no need of that hypothesis.

Innumerates have no need of hypotenuses either.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 09, 2018, 11:08:22 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It means that the individual who self-labels as an atheist does not find claims that there exists any sort of divine or supernatural power, entity, or authority, in the singular or plural to be convincing.  No more, no less.

It's not an ideology: there are liberal atheists, conservative atheists, socialist atheists, capitalist atheists, monarchist atheists, anarchist atheists, social libertarian atheists, economic libertarian atheists, and apolitical atheists.

It's not a belief system, unless you happen to think that not collecting coins is as much a hobby as collecting coins, and that celibacy is a sex position like missionary, 69, and reverse cowgirl (or boy, as the case may be).

It's the simple statement that the burden of proof for claims of any deity has not been met.  Not that they cannot be met under any circumstances, but that so far they have not been met, and that the individual is until then under no obligation to even tentatively accept the claim.

I mean, it's pretty straightforward.

Anarchists don't believe governments exist.  If I don't believe cars exist, should I be careful crossing the street?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 10, 2018, 08:27:00 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It means that the individual who self-labels as an atheist does not find claims that there exists any sort of divine or supernatural power, entity, or authority, in the singular or plural to be convincing.  No more, no less.

It's not an ideology: there are liberal atheists, conservative atheists, socialist atheists, capitalist atheists, monarchist atheists, anarchist atheists, social libertarian atheists, economic libertarian atheists, and apolitical atheists.

It's not a belief system, unless you happen to think that not collecting coins is as much a hobby as collecting coins, and that celibacy is a sex position like missionary, 69, and reverse cowgirl (or boy, as the case may be).

It's the simple statement that the burden of proof for claims of any deity has not been met.  Not that they cannot be met under any circumstances, but that so far they have not been met, and that the individual is until then under no obligation to even tentatively accept the claim.

I mean, it's pretty straightforward.

Not when you want to ignore that their belief systems are their ideologies.

You offered no other term and just deny because you are lost in semantics.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 10, 2018, 08:30:00 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That they lack belief in a god.

That lack of belief can be called their ideology. Right?

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 10, 2018, 08:55:52 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That lack of belief can be called their ideology. Right?

Regards
DL
I really don't think so.  As has been pointed out, a-theistic simply means not theistic.  That's all.  No other ideas or even ideals need attend.  And if they do, they are of a personal origin and not of a group origin. As has often been stated on this site, getting this group of atheists to agree on any one thing is like trying to herd cats---difficult, if not impossible.

This is what the Oxford Dictionary says of 'ideology':
 
ideology
NOUN
1.A system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.

1.1 The set of beliefs characteristic of a social group or individual.

2. archaic mass noun The science of ideas; the study of their origin and nature.

2.1 Visionary speculation, especially of an unrealistic or idealistic nature.

Being an atheist does not put one into any of those categories.  As an atheist I do not have any beliefs in the theistic realm.  Because of a profound lack of data or facts to support any type of theism, I don't think there is any way for me to 'believe' anything.  Which is why I chose the term atheist---non theist (or non believer).  I do not suggest there is a 'proper' way to be a theist; the only logical stance is to be non-theist.  Beyond that, I have only my own personal ideas, values, morals, ethics, code of conduct or any other system of how to act in society or personally. 
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: trdsf on May 10, 2018, 11:39:15 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Not when you want to ignore that their belief systems are their ideologies.

You offered no other term and just deny because you are lost in semantics.
Okay, I didn't think you could reset the bar, but this is officially the stupidest thing you've written yet.

One.  Belief systems and ideologies may be related, and may inform and reinforce each other, but they are not the same thing.

Two: Point out any factual flaws in what I wrote, rather than your usual dismissive doubletalk.  Please note: I said 'factual flaw'.  Your personal redefinitions of terms that everyone else knows how to use normally don't give you bases for factual flaws.

"Lost in semantics".  Pot, please do meet kettle.  I am not lost in semantics, I appreciate semantics because words mean things.  Because communication matters, especially if you want to discuss points of philosophy.  Because you don't get to make up your own dictionary and then get your nose out of joint when other people look at you funny and wonder what the hell you think you're talking about.

Basically, all you're engaged in is a grand effort to keep everything muddied so that you can tell yourself that you're winning the debate, rather than actually engaging in a debate.  As soon as you run into a point you can't answer, you resort to some variation on "oh, you just don't understand", which puts you in the same class as fundamentalists who try to tell us that if we only had faith we'd understand why faith is just as good as reason and evidence.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: trdsf on May 10, 2018, 12:42:00 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That lack of belief can be called their ideology. Right?
Let's see, how can I put this for maximum clarity?  Oh, yes.

WRONG.

My ideology is Social Democracy.  My belief system broadly congruent with Humanism, although I prefer not to self-identify as such.  These are not the necessary results of being an atheist.

Atheism is one position regarding one claim about the universe.  What part of that are you finding difficult to grasp?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: GSOgymrat on May 10, 2018, 12:58:59 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That is what happens when, most if not all the time, people idolize their belief systems.

All become recalcitrant.

Regards
DL


All people have belief systems-- one can't function in the world without believing basic rules of reality, e.g. I need to eat or I will die. Under what circumstances do you consider a belief system idolatry and why is idolatry bad?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 10, 2018, 02:48:01 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
All people have belief systems-- one can't function in the world without believing basic rules of reality, e.g. I need to eat or I will die. Under what circumstances do you consider a belief system idolatry and why is idolatry bad?
I think as you do--but I chose different words.  I like to say I don't 'believe' in anything.  I have learned that if a living thing does not eat it will die.  So, I don't 'believe' that to be true, but 'think' it is true.  Yes, that is just substituting one word for another.  Doesn't matter to most, probably, but it does to me.  I don't 'believe' the sun will rise; I think it will because it has done so for millions of years.  I'm careful with substituting 'think' for 'believe' because theists really want me to believe things.  They really want atheism to just another 'belief' system so that they can chip away (they hope) at the idea that atheism is only another ideology or belief; therefore we are differing only on opinions and not facts.  And to be even more accurate to how I think, I'd say 'currently think', since if facts or data suggest I am thinking wrong, I will change my mind. 

In our current society words and meanings are often mixed up.  Many love to say things like 'well, that's just a theory', when they really mean to say 'that is just a guess or a hypothesis'.  If something is a theory then it has been proven to be accurate.  Belief and faith fall into that same area.  Theists mean one thing and others mean something else.  For me a 'belief' is unfounded or it cannot be demonstrated to another person.  Faith, for me, is simply trust.  For a theist, faith is the ultimate test of their belief in a deity.  Ideology fits there as well.   
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: GSOgymrat on May 10, 2018, 03:02:59 PM
I used "belief system" because Greatest I Am used the term. I'm sincerely trying to understand his point.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 10, 2018, 03:34:32 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I used "belief system" because Greatest I Am used the term. I'm sincerely trying to understand his point.
Good luck with that. :))
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 10, 2018, 05:13:37 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I used "belief system" because Greatest I Am used the term. I'm sincerely trying to understand his point.

English isn't his native language, native culture.  But Anglophones are gods ... tough luck for anyone else.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: GSOgymrat on May 10, 2018, 05:17:44 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
English isn't his native language, native culture.  But Anglophones are gods ... tough luck for anyone else.

Thanks, I didn't realize English isn't his native language. Perhaps that is one reason I am having difficulty.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 10, 2018, 05:34:05 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Thanks, I didn't realize English isn't his native language. Perhaps that is one reason I am having difficulty.

French thought in English words ... car crash!  Though his English is much more fluent than my French.  In different languages, the nuance, the way words slide intuitively into each other, are different.  So yes, formally agreed to definitions in advance ... but we can't agree ;-)
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 11, 2018, 03:00:56 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I really don't think so.  As has been pointed out, a-theistic simply means not theistic.  That's all.  No other ideas or even ideals need attend.  And if they do, they are of a personal origin and not of a group origin. As has often been stated on this site, getting this group of atheists to agree on any one thing is like trying to herd cats---difficult, if not impossible.

This is what the Oxford Dictionary says of 'ideology':
 
ideology
NOUN
1.A system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.

1.1 The set of beliefs characteristic of a social group or individual.

2. archaic mass noun The science of ideas; the study of their origin and nature.

2.1 Visionary speculation, especially of an unrealistic or idealistic nature.

Being an atheist does not put one into any of those categories.  As an atheist I do not have any beliefs in the theistic realm.  Because of a profound lack of data or facts to support any type of theism, I don't think there is any way for me to 'believe' anything.  Which is why I chose the term atheist---non theist (or non believer).  I do not suggest there is a 'proper' way to be a theist; the only logical stance is to be non-theist.  Beyond that, I have only my own personal ideas, values, morals, ethics, code of conduct or any other system of how to act in society or personally. 

Call it what you will, but the term ideology applies.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 11, 2018, 03:04:03 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Okay, I didn't think you could reset the bar, but this is officially the stupidest thing you've written yet.

One.  Belief systems and ideologies may be related, and may inform and reinforce each other, but they are not the same thing.

Two: Point out any factual flaws in what I wrote, rather than your usual dismissive doubletalk.  Please note: I said 'factual flaw'.  Your personal redefinitions of terms that everyone else knows how to use normally don't give you bases for factual flaws.

"Lost in semantics".  Pot, please do meet kettle.  I am not lost in semantics, I appreciate semantics because words mean things.  Because communication matters, especially if you want to discuss points of philosophy.  Because you don't get to make up your own dictionary and then get your nose out of joint when other people look at you funny and wonder what the hell you think you're talking about.

Basically, all you're engaged in is a grand effort to keep everything muddied so that you can tell yourself that you're winning the debate, rather than actually engaging in a debate.  As soon as you run into a point you can't answer, you resort to some variation on "oh, you just don't understand", which puts you in the same class as fundamentalists who try to tell us that if we only had faith we'd understand why faith is just as good as reason and evidence.

I would prefer losing a debate and learning something new as compared to wining  a debate and learning nothing new.

If you wish to win this one and learn nothing, by all means, take the win.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 11, 2018, 03:08:32 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
All people have belief systems-- one can't function in the world without believing basic rules of reality, e.g. I need to eat or I will die. Under what circumstances do you consider a belief system idolatry and why is idolatry bad?

Idolatry has always been considered bad because it let's the idol do your thinking for you as you put his thoughts above your thoughts.

Have you not noticed that when you ask an idolater a question, they start thumping the thoughts of another instead of their own?

I certainly have.

You end with garbage from theists, like, ---- I believe it because Jesus believed it. Not because I can make sense of it.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 11, 2018, 03:11:53 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I used "belief system" because Greatest I Am used the term. I'm sincerely trying to understand his point.

In terms of terms, this mind set might help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkZg1ZflpJs

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 11, 2018, 04:13:56 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Call it what you will, but the term ideology applies.

Regards
DL
Of course--how silly of me.  I keep forgetting you are THE expert here.  Of course it applies.........................
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 12, 2018, 04:57:33 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Of course--how silly of me.  I keep forgetting you are THE expert here.  Of course it applies.........................

LOL!  GIA is not an expert in anything.   That would be Baruch, by his own acclamation about everything, except he isn't either.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 12, 2018, 06:57:41 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
LOL!  GIA is not an expert in anything.   That would be Baruch, by his own acclamation about everything, except he isn't either.

So, the guy who does everything well is talking about others?  GIA is expert in his own experience, we all are.  People have individual differences at one level, and cultural differences at another.  Does that mean we are all wrong?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: SGOS on May 12, 2018, 07:12:29 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
LOL!  GIA is not an expert in anything.
People who abuse semantics end up making communication irrelevant.  GIA takes it a step further and uses semantics to create a psychotic kind of dream world.  I've only read perhaps 10% of his posts, but I've read all the responses to him.  His other threads, I've quit reading entirely.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 12, 2018, 07:25:14 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
People who abuse semantics end up making communication irrelevant.  GIA takes it a step further and uses semantics to create a psychotic kind of dream world.  I've only read perhaps 10% of his posts, but I've read all the responses to him.  His other threads, I've quit reading entirely.

Well, he is focused on the interior.  You are focused on the exterior.  Both are part of life.  Deny either at your peril.

If you deny your dreams, they will become nightmares.

His paranormal experience broke him out of the very French materialist-Marxist POV.  It isn't called "dialectical materialism" for nothing.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: SGOS on May 12, 2018, 08:09:25 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Well, he is focused on the interior.
His "interior" must be psychosis.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 12, 2018, 08:15:10 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
His "interior" must be psychosis.

All interiors are psychotic ... particularly when disconnected from the exteriors.  If you are all exterior (rhetorically speaking) and no interior, aren't you a Barbie doll?  Also are we sure we aren't just anti-French?  Or not French enough (laicity)?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: SGOS on May 12, 2018, 08:44:59 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
All interiors are psychotic ... particularly when disconnected from the exteriors.
Did you fathom this through observation of your own mind?
 
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If you are all exterior (rhetorically speaking) and no interior, aren't you a Barbie doll?  Also are we sure we aren't just anti-French?  Or not French enough (laicity)?
From that observation, I would conclude that your exterior is a jumble of thought fragments and transient brain farts without connections to each other or to your surroundings.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 12, 2018, 09:33:45 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
So, the guy who does everything well is talking about others?  GIA is expert in his own experience, we all are.  People have individual differences at one level, and cultural differences at another.  Does that mean we are all wrong?
We are all wrong if we try to insert my own personal experiences into someone else's mouth.  GIA tends to use words as he sees fit and assigns those words meanings he approves of; other definitions don't count. 
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 12, 2018, 12:15:15 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Did you fathom this through observation of your own mind?
 From that observation, I would conclude that your exterior is a jumble of thought fragments and transient brain farts without connections to each other or to your surroundings.

Study psychology.  Study yourself.  Shit can all egotism.  You will find a sorry ass monkey looking back at you.  If you can't follow the thread I make, that is no problem for either of us.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Unbeliever on May 12, 2018, 02:00:13 PM
Inability to follow the thread makes it easy to get lost in the labyrinth.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 12, 2018, 03:42:09 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Inability to follow the thread makes it easy to get lost in the labyrinth.

Life is hard.  Playing world's smallest violin.  If you want a well organized presentation, attend a good college class ... if you can find one.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 12, 2018, 04:39:41 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Well, he is focused on the interior.  You are focused on the exterior.  Both are part of life.  Deny either at your peril.

If you deny your dreams, they will become nightmares.

His paranormal experience broke him out of the very French materialist-Marxist POV.  It isn't called "dialectical materialism" for nothing.

Without an open and inquisitive mind, I doubt that I could have created my experience.

With people like those above, who get hung up on words instead of seeing the real meaning of the words, do not have open minds and perhaps that is why most sages say that many are called but few hear the voice.

=============

To all.

Jesus said to love yourself as well as God.

Love, worship, adore are all synonymous. We love ourselves and our ideologies, which is good, but we are allowing it to go to idolatry if we have a fixed ideology.

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Love is a precursor to adoration and worship and are synonymous to idolatry.

The worship you give God you are also told to give yourself.

If you follow Jesus, you will love and worship yourself and that is why we are all idolaters, unless we allow for changes or flexibility.

If Jesus is a good man to you, then you will try to love and adore the ideology you follow.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 12, 2018, 04:49:00 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Did you fathom this through observation of your own mind?
 From that observation, I would conclude that your exterior is a jumble of thought fragments and transient brain farts without connections to each other or to your surroundings.

Baruch lays out the dots, and like many intelligent men, does not think he has to put your finger on each one for you to see them.

His problem is treating childish minds like adult minds. An not kowtowing to the slower minds by lowering his standards to them.

What is said here of passing grades, he will not do, as that is quite immoral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-14SllPPLxY

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: trdsf on May 14, 2018, 12:15:11 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I would prefer losing a debate and learning something new as compared to wining  a debate and learning nothing new.

If you wish to win this one and learn nothing, by all means, take the win.
You really don't read for comprehension much, do you?  Or are you conceding that you cannot find a factual flaw in my statement, as requested?

Because as far as I can tell, you're only glancing to see if I've bought into your bullshit yet, and when you see I haven't, you double down on the bullshit.

Are you even capable of answering a direct question?  I asked you to point out any factual flaws in my statement here (http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=12605.msg1216182#msg1216182), which you dismissed with non sequitur and doubletalk.  And when asked for your objections, you responded with more non sequitur and doubletalk, and then have the barefaced gall to accuse others of the very conversational crimes you yourself repeat over and over.

I mean, if you're not serious about having an adult conversation, fine, have fun with your faux intellectual wankathon.  No skin off my nose.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 19, 2018, 07:19:25 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That they lack belief in a god.

That is an ideological position.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 19, 2018, 07:23:27 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The reason I use that label is for clarity and honesty.  I don't find any reason to think that a god(s) (or anything supernatural) is real.  I have found no data or reasons to support the 'belief' that god(s) exist.  Atheism is not an ideology for me either, for it is simply a statement that lets others know that I don't think anything supernatural exists.  being atheist does not come with a set of ways to think or what to think.  If I know a person is atheistic then I know they don't think god(s) exist, but that's all.  Cavebear is atheistic but that does not inform me as to any stances he has on any other subject.

i·de·ol·o·gy
noun
1.a system of ideas and ideals

Not thinking something is a part of your thinking system and ideas.

Regards
DL


Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 19, 2018, 07:25:02 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That seems easy enough.  I label myself an "atheist" because I have no "theist" views".   In ancient Greek, "a" meant "not" (apolitical, agnosticetc),

Without theisms, there would by no atheists.  We didn't create the idea.  Until some damned fool idiot got the first idea of some natural deity, EVERYONE was an atheist, but there was no need for the label as there was no "theism" before then.  Like, are you an  abrogismist"?  Of course not, so long as there re no brogismists.   Only WHEN there are active proponents of "broglism" can there be people who aren't. 

They didn't go around thinking "I'm a abroglimist" before then  It was only when someone said they were a "broglimist" and someone else said "well I don't think I am one" that there were "abroglimists".

Same with atheists and theists.  Atheists didn't start the idea of NOT being theists.  Someone else had the idea of beings "theists" and some other people just weren't.  So they were (after) hot-theists (ie, "atheists").

And, for that reason, thereby hangs the tail of "proof".  Theism was the new idea, and therefore the burden of proof of the idea is on the theists.  As an atheist, I don't have to prove a thing, just as the broglimists would have to give proof t the people who were not broglamists that their new idea was true.

So, prove your "Broglism" idea...  It's not my burden to disprove it.



Does that make sense, or do I need to use shorter words?

No. Just fewer as I did just above.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 19, 2018, 07:25:48 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"The atheist does not say," There is no God", but he says, "I know not what you mean by God"; the word God is to me a sound conveying no clear or distinct affirmation."
Charles Bradlaugh

The word "God" can mean so many different things that it really means nothing at all.

Indeed.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 19, 2018, 07:26:04 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
i·de·ol·o·gy
noun
1.a system of ideas and ideals

Not thinking something is a part of your thinking system and ideas.

Regards
DL

People are closed minded about different things, not the same things.  That is why they argue and fight, not because there is too much open mindedness.  Ideology is a name for being closed minded.

Cavebear seems to have a pristine aboriginal model of humanity, like Rousseau.  I don't agree with Rousseau on many levels.

Originally people had no language, they weren't atheist or theist ... those words didn't exist.  They behaved differently than modern people do, and live in a radically different context.  Early man is almost unimaginable to moderns.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 19, 2018, 07:27:06 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It means that the individual who self-labels as an atheist does not find claims that there exists any sort of divine or supernatural power, entity, or authority, in the singular or plural to be convincing.  No more, no less.

It's not an ideology: there are liberal atheists, conservative atheists, socialist atheists, capitalist atheists, monarchist atheists, anarchist atheists, social libertarian atheists, economic libertarian atheists, and apolitical atheists.

It's not a belief system, unless you happen to think that not collecting coins is as much a hobby as collecting coins, and that celibacy is a sex position like missionary, 69, and reverse cowgirl (or boy, as the case may be).

It's the simple statement that the burden of proof for claims of any deity has not been met.  Not that they cannot be met under any circumstances, but that so far they have not been met, and that the individual is until then under no obligation to even tentatively accept the claim.

I mean, it's pretty straightforward.

See the definition above.

Any set of ideas is an ideology.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on May 19, 2018, 07:28:20 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
People are closed minded about different things, not the same things.  That is why they argue and fight, not because there is too much open mindedness.  Ideology is a name for being closed minded.

It can be, sure as that would it the definition.

Regards
DL

Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 19, 2018, 08:07:45 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
His "interior" must be psychosis.

Or perhaps his "interior" is his "posterior"...  ;)
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: trdsf on May 19, 2018, 08:11:31 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Or perhaps his "interior" is his "posterior"...  ;)
Yeah, I'm inclined to a diagnosis of rectocranial inversion m'self.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 19, 2018, 08:18:26 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It can be, sure as that would it the definition.

Regards
DL

You probably think that "bald" is a hair color, too.  It often amazes me how some people can wind facts in their minds and get 1+1=3.  I worked in the Federal Government and saw people like that often.  They succeeded well enough (among their own kind).  I'm sure they were in private industry too, but I wasn't there to observe them.  Though, the examples I see coming out of private industry into government riding the coat-tails of the Trump-like critters suggests they are at least the same and probably worse.

Have a happy...
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 19, 2018, 10:41:38 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
i·de·ol·o·gy
noun
1.a system of ideas and ideals

Not thinking something is a part of your thinking system and ideas.

Regards
DL
Ah, got it.  If I think or don't think, that is an ideology.  That's nice and neat--everyone and everything thing then is an ideology.  And any argument, reasons, facts, assertions, fantasies or simply being alive is an ideology.  That's easy.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Blackleaf on May 19, 2018, 10:49:00 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
i·de·ol·o·gy
noun
1.a system of ideas and ideals

Not thinking something is a part of your thinking system and ideas.

Exactly. And atheism has neither ideas or ideals. We reject the idea of gods. That is all that atheists have in common. It's really not that hard. And no, not thinking something is not an idea. Not collecting trading cards is not a hobby. Off is not a TV channel. Blind is not a favorite color.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 19, 2018, 11:07:57 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Exactly. And atheism has neither ideas or ideals. We reject the idea of gods. That is all that atheists have in common. It's really not that hard. And no, not thinking something is not an idea. Not collecting trading cards is not a hobby. Off is not a TV channel. Blind is not a favorite color.

I've attended a couple of atheist conventions.  I met a guy who was an atheist gun-fanatic.  I met another who thought "atheist" meant "do anything you want to".  Neither was my style, but they WERE atheists.

The only thing atheists have in common is not believing in myths.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Blackleaf on May 19, 2018, 11:09:44 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've attended a couple of atheist conventions.  I met a guy who was an atheist gun-fanatic.  I met another who thought "atheist" meant "do anything you want to".  Neither was my style, but they WERE atheists.

The only thing atheists have in common is not believing in myths.

I'd be more specific, because "myths" don't always involve gods. You can be an atheist and still believe in ghosts, aliens, healing crystals, flat earth, or any number of myths.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 19, 2018, 11:23:40 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'd be more specific, because "myths" don't always involve gods. You can be an atheist and still believe in ghosts, aliens, healing crystals, flat earth, or any number of myths.

Well, I wouldn't, but I get your point;  atheism shades into rationalism at some point for ME.  I consider the two similar, but not everyone does.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 19, 2018, 11:33:20 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've attended a couple of atheist conventions.  I met a guy who was an atheist gun-fanatic.  I met another who thought "atheist" meant "do anything you want to".  Neither was my style, but they WERE atheists.

The only thing atheists have in common is not believing in myths.

"do anything you want to" is a slogan of a church of Satan, a paraphrase of Aleister Crowley

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Unbeliever on May 19, 2018, 01:55:06 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
  I met another who thought "atheist" meant "do anything you want to".
That was the motto of Aleister Crowley, "the wickedest man in the world," who believed that "do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 19, 2018, 01:59:38 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That was the motto of Aleister Crowley, "the wickedest man in the world," who believed that "do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."

He may have been a complete fraud however, using the occult as a cover for MI6 type work.  Which would make him very wicked indeed, given their recent interference (not Russian interference) in the US Presidential election.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: trdsf on May 19, 2018, 03:53:09 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That was the motto of Aleister Crowley, "the wickedest man in the world," who believed that "do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."
Often forgotten is the second part of that: "Love is the law, love under will."  Which sort of points towards respect of others' rights, but not very clearly.

The Wiccan Rede reinstates the responsibility to others much more definitively: An it harm none, do what thou wilt.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 19, 2018, 04:54:24 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Often forgotten is the second part of that: "Love is the law, love under will."  Which sort of points towards respect of others' rights, but not very clearly.

The Wiccan Rede reinstates the responsibility to others much more definitively: An it harm none, do what thou wilt.

Yeah, I have the Coven record for amusement.  I would prefer a more positive agreement than "that it harm no one" though.    We have seen evidence of too much passive  acceptance of events that "harmed".
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: trdsf on May 19, 2018, 05:27:33 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Yeah, I have the Coven record for amusement.  I would prefer a more positive agreement than "that it harm no one" though.    We have seen evidence of too much passive acceptance of events that "harmed".
That was one of the things about Wicca I liked when I practiced it: I can't define harm for you.  I can make my best effort, but if I'm wrong, I am responsible to you to make it right.  Unlike Christianity, I can't go into a box and whisper "I sowwy" and pretend that fixes it.

The Rede works alongside another Wiccan principle, the Three-Fold Law: whatever energy a person puts into the world, positive or negative, will be returned to that person three times.  It's akin to the idea of karma -- and not universally held among all Wiccans, though it or something like it is broadly held.  Also, it refers to reward and/or punishment occurring in this world, not in any after- or next life.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 19, 2018, 05:37:32 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That was one of the things about Wicca I liked when I practiced it: I can't define harm for you.  I can make my best effort, but if I'm wrong, I am responsible to you to make it right.  Unlike Christianity, I can't go into a box and whisper "I sowwy" and pretend that fixes it.

The Rede works alongside another Wiccan principle, the Three-Fold Law: whatever energy a person puts into the world, positive or negative, will be returned to that person three times.  It's akin to the idea of karma -- and not universally held among all Wiccans, though it or something like it is broadly held.  Also, it refers to reward and/or punishment occurring in this world, not in any after- or next life.

So, you're Wiccan?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: trdsf on May 19, 2018, 07:18:59 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
So, you're Wiccan?
I was, from 1984 to around 2004.  And then I finally threw in my lot with evidence and reason after spending a little time trying to justify magic through the observer effect in quantum mechanics and science kept winning over belief.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 22, 2018, 05:13:14 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I was, from 1984 to around 2004.  And then I finally threw in my lot with evidence and reason after spending a little time trying to justify magic through the observer effect in quantum mechanics and science kept winning over belief.

Well to the present, LOL!
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 22, 2018, 06:20:59 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I was, from 1984 to around 2004.  And then I finally threw in my lot with evidence and reason after spending a little time trying to justify magic through the observer effect in quantum mechanics and science kept winning over belief.

If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't - Feynman
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: trdsf on May 22, 2018, 01:19:18 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Well to the present, LOL!
There was a brief flirtation along the way with Discordianism because of quantum randomness...
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 22, 2018, 08:17:46 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There was a brief flirtation along the way with Discordianism because of quantum randomness...

Isn't Acid Rock dischordian, or is that Heavy Metal? ;-)
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 25, 2018, 03:42:40 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There was a brief flirtation along the way with Discordianism because of quantum randomness...

I suspect a rational universe usually makes the most sense.  I don't mean a "THINKING" rational universe, that would imply agency.  Just one with rules...
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 25, 2018, 07:25:38 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I suspect a rational universe usually makes the most sense.  I don't mean a "THINKING" rational universe, that would imply agency.  Just one with rules...

There are rules, but no ruler? ... unless you mean a wooden one from school days.  See, abuse of language, everywhere.  There is recurrence of pattern, that isn't a rule, just a pattern, which inductively (logic) doesn't always work out.  Black swans.  Y'all still don't take David Hume seriously.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: trdsf on May 25, 2018, 12:41:07 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I suspect a rational universe usually makes the most sense.  I don't mean a "THINKING" rational universe, that would imply agency.  Just one with rules...
Rational as in explainable within and up to the limits of observation and mathematical modeling.  I reject the Gaia/Galaxia/Universalia position too.  The universe is what it is, and until we reliably observe otherwise, there's no reason to think otherwise.

Of course, that doesn't mean our current explanation is final, even though it's very good.  Einstein's Special and General Relativity were shocking at the time, Hubble's discovery of the expansion of the universe was shocking, Rubin's discovery of both galactic superclusters and dark matter was shocking (although IMO not as shocking as the failure of the Nobel committee to ever award her the Physics Prize), Perlmutter, Schmidt & Reiss' discovery of the accelerating expansion of the universe and dark energy was shocking.

What will be more shocking is if we don't learn something else shocking about the universe in the next few years.  We're about due for a really good upset—they seem to come along about every ten or twenty years.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 25, 2018, 12:56:27 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There are rules, but no ruler? ... unless you mean a wooden one from school days.  See, abuse of language, everywhere.  There is recurrence of pattern, that isn't a rule, just a pattern, which inductively (logic) doesn't always work out.  Black swans.  Y'all still don't take David Hume seriously.

Indeed yes, and that is what often seems to confuse you theists the most.  Does F=MA require a deity to be true?  If there was no deity wouldn't 1+1 still equal 2?  What amazes ME is that YOU think only a deity could make mass orbit a larger mass without some divine assistance (and possibly assistants). 

Let's say God sneezed.  Oh my, there goes Jupiter off into the Oort cloud...
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: trdsf on May 25, 2018, 03:39:27 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Let's say God sneezed.  Oh my, there goes Jupiter off into the Oort cloud...
You have just described me playing Universe Sandbox (http://universesandbox.com/)...
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 25, 2018, 05:38:27 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Indeed yes, and that is what often seems to confuse you theists the most.  Does F=MA require a deity to be true?  If there was no deity wouldn't 1+1 still equal 2?  What amazes ME is that YOU think only a deity could make mass orbit a larger mass without some divine assistance (and possibly assistants). 

Let's say God sneezed.  Oh my, there goes Jupiter off into the Oort cloud...

Newton said yes, a G-d is required, particularly for absolute space and absolute time.  But people mistake him for a physicist, he was an alchemist, Revelations fan, gay, Mint master, natural philosopher, mathematician.  There was no such thing as physics (the modern discipline) until the 19th century.  The first physics PhD was awarded in the US in 1861.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 29, 2018, 09:29:46 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You have just described me playing Universe Sandbox (http://universesandbox.com/)...

I checked.  If the game is as good as the teaser, I'm IN!  Is it really?  Do you play it?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 29, 2018, 09:31:13 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Newton said yes, a G-d is required, particularly for absolute space and absolute time.  But people mistake him for a physicist, he was an alchemist, Revelations fan, gay, Mint master, natural philosopher, mathematician.  There was no such thing as physics (the modern discipline) until the 19th century.  The first physics PhD was awarded in the US in 1861.

I know...
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: trdsf on May 29, 2018, 10:56:38 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I checked.  If the game is as good as the teaser, I'm IN!  Is it really?  Do you play it?
I think it is -- and I still play the old version, I haven't upgraded to Universe Sandbox2 yet (every time I'm ready to, some dumb thing happens that I have to spend money on).

I use it for building stellar systems with certain properties; it helps me flesh out worlds when I try to write about them.

Well, okay, and I like crashing black holes into things.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on May 29, 2018, 02:42:50 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I think it is -- and I still play the old version, I haven't upgraded to Universe Sandbox2 yet (every time I'm ready to, some dumb thing happens that I have to spend money on).

I use it for building stellar systems with certain properties; it helps me flesh out worlds when I try to write about them.

Well, okay, and I like crashing black holes into things.

I noticed the "2".  Should I play the "1" first?  Buying the game isn't a problem.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: trdsf on May 29, 2018, 10:08:52 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I noticed the "2".  Should I play the "1" first?  Buying the game isn't a problem.
Naw, if you're going to get it, get 2; it's a more advanced version.  You don't need to start on the first version to make sense of the second.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: aitm on May 29, 2018, 10:12:19 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
(https://www.cats.org.uk/uploads/images/featurebox_sidebar_kids/grief-and-loss.jpg)

See this? This is a cat.

(https://www.petinsurance.com/images/VSSimages/consumer/v5/banner_dog_insurance.jpg)

This is also a cat. They both have four legs, two eyes, two ears, one tail, so they're basically the same thing.

(https://co0069yjui-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Lizard-1000x520.jpg)

This is a hairless cat. It has all the same features as the other two, but calls itself a "lizard" because it thinks it's better than other cats. This is about as intelligent as arguments over semantics get.

well, this is one of those threads where skipping to the last post is quite rewarding.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: aitm on May 29, 2018, 10:14:16 PM
OR,,,,this is one of those threads where you assume you have looked at it before and it turns out you haven't and the first page is what you thought was the last page and now I want to crawl back into the bottle....Cheerio!
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on May 30, 2018, 02:03:26 AM
I had a pet iguana twice ... not a good choice.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Unbeliever on May 30, 2018, 01:45:40 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I checked.  If the game is as good as the teaser, I'm IN!  Is it really?  Do you play it?
Anton Petrov uses it on youtube, if you'd like the check out his channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCciQ8wFcVoIIMi-lfu8-cjQ
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on June 01, 2018, 01:41:08 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Anton Petrov uses it on youtube, if you'd like the check out his channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCciQ8wFcVoIIMi-lfu8-cjQ

9 minutes and there is no point to this?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Unbeliever on June 01, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
Huh?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on June 05, 2018, 05:11:39 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Huh?

The video actually seemed pointless.  My apologies.  I listened to 9 minutes of it and gave up finding any useful information.  Maybe I just am too familiar with the subject.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Unbeliever on June 05, 2018, 01:36:56 PM
I don't know which vid you're referring to, since the page I posted has many vids from which to choose.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: pr126 on June 05, 2018, 02:14:39 PM
Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?

Which religion isn't?


Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on June 05, 2018, 04:52:57 PM
I once asked a Jewish friend if Judaism had ever been violent and he said (with complete confidence) it had not.  I laughed.

I once asked a Christian friend if Christianity had ever been violent and he said it had not.  I laughed. 

I don't have any Moslem friends, but I'm sure they would say the same.

Theists are nuts...
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on June 05, 2018, 06:03:59 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I once asked a Jewish friend if Judaism had ever been violent and he said (with complete confidence) it had not.  I laughed.

I once asked a Christian friend if Christianity had ever been violent and he said it had not.  I laughed. 

I don't have any Moslem friends, but I'm sure they would say the same.

Theists are nuts...

I polled two random people who don't know you, and they all agree you are nuts (seems about right).

Isn't your evidence, evidence of ideology?

Capitalism isn't bad, it just hasn't been tried yet?

Socialism isn't bad, it just hasn't been tried yet?

If you count all the atheists in Israel, as Jewish atheists, they are quite violent.  See Gaza.

Every group has 20/20 myopia and virtue signaling.

Example .. all true Israelis are true Jews, and all true Jews are like Gandhi ... pacifists.  Because all true Jews are Hindu.  Except Hindus are violent too.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on June 11, 2018, 02:33:56 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?

Which religion isn't?




Those that seek wisdom and knowledge and put man above God. Imaginary Gods that is.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on June 11, 2018, 02:35:32 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I once asked a Jewish friend if Judaism had ever been violent and he said (with complete confidence) it had not.  I laughed.

I once asked a Christian friend if Christianity had ever been violent and he said it had not.  I laughed. 

I don't have any Moslem friends, but I'm sure they would say the same.

Theists are nuts...

Indoctrinated and brain dead for sure.

All are who put their tribal affiliations ahead of their morals.

Regards
DL
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on June 11, 2018, 02:53:24 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Those that seek wisdom and knowledge and put man above God. Imaginary Gods that is.

Regards
DL

What gods can there be but imaginary?  Can you describe it in any terms that would make it different from the rest.

Were you on vacation, BTW?  It seems a while since I saw you last.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Greatest I am on June 11, 2018, 03:11:35 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
What gods can there be but imaginary?  Can you describe it in any terms that would make it different from the rest.

Were you on vacation, BTW?  It seems a while since I saw you last.

I have been busy of late. Good old summertime.

Remember that even some of the old Emperors used to declare themselves to be Gods and their sons, sons of God.

Further, in ancient days, it was rightly believed that nothing could be known of the supernatural realm.

That and more is why my God is I am. Follow the logic trail.

Modern Gnostic Christians name our God "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.

You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation.

In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that lazy Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Here is the real way Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
   
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural.

Regards
DL





 

Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on June 11, 2018, 06:01:53 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
What gods can there be but imaginary?  Can you describe it in any terms that would make it different from the rest.

Were you on vacation, BTW?  It seems a while since I saw you last.

What political parties can there be, except the ideological aka imaginary?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on June 16, 2018, 04:55:20 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural.

Regards
DL

I always smile at the way theists show clouds to describe their deity... 
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: trdsf on June 16, 2018, 08:55:17 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I always smile at the way theists show clouds to describe their deity...
Except, of course, that clouds actually exist.  :)
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Cavebear on June 20, 2018, 02:51:44 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Except, of course, that clouds actually exist.  :)

Well, OF COURSE!  They had to find SOMETHING that was real...

And I sometimes wonder what a fish might imagine a deity to be.  Would it be a grasshopper moving on the surface or the hook attached to it?  Would an artificial lure be the Devil and an unhooked worm tossed from a boat be Manna from a deity?  Do the fish wonder about the shape of the boat passing over be a proof of evil or a proof of a deity?

Are 75% of humans smarter than the fish?
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: Baruch on June 20, 2018, 06:21:18 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Well, OF COURSE!  They had to find SOMETHING that was real...

And I sometimes wonder what a fish might imagine a deity to be.  Would it be a grasshopper moving on the surface or the hook attached to it?  Would an artificial lure be the Devil and an unhooked worm tossed from a boat be Manna from a deity?  Do the fish wonder about the shape of the boat passing over be a proof of evil or a proof of a deity?

Are 75% of humans smarter than the fish?

Clouds don't exist, water vapor exists.  The fact that we choose to pick out one patch of water vapor over another, even if we don't necessarily see the shape of a dragon etc ... is what humans bring to it.  There is no objectivity without humans adding their bit, just atoms.  No mountains, no anything.
Title: Re: Are Christians and Muslims idolaters?
Post by: trdsf on June 20, 2018, 10:32:09 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Are 75% of humans smarter than the fish?
Not at extracting oxygen from water, no.  ;)