In one of Armored Skeptic's latest videos (https://youtu.be/G4jHwqQj95E?t=6m32s), he talks about how the general public conceptualizes evolution as "a constant progression into perfection" alongside notions of technological progression, it's very easy (perhaps inevitable) for people to conceptualize a futuristic alien species - less hairy, bigger brains (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/Nast-intellect.png/300px-Nast-intellect.png), etc - you naturally arrive at a stereotypical grey alien. "The large-brained skinny humanoids with delicate features is just our perception of our own evolutionary future. This is our idealized version of where evolution and technology will take humanity."
In short, the greys didn't come from some distant star, they came from our own imaginations and our unrealistic expectations of the future.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSv98MfxtuSy7H2bYiiHJIG1Fl2ZH142iavanJzpkX3rY6Yy4oz)
And there's a tinge of narcissism to this: an advanced, "evolved" humanoid race - almost elfin in that they're extremely knowledgeable and powerful as opposed to the comparatively brutish and primitive mankind. It's just a distorted reflection of humanity, with desirable parts elongated and undesirable parts minimized - both in physically and mentally. The greys are just a manifestation of how humans would like to view themselves.
And I thought about other mythological beings who would fit this same sort of pattern.
Almost every monstrous creature I've heard about is simply an upgraded version of a natural predator.
Werewolves = humans + wolves
Vampires = humans + vampire bats
Graboids = very big worms, albeit with beaks and tentacles
Dragons = reptiles + wings + fire-breathing
Cthulhu = cephalopod + humanoid + wings
And of course, leviathans, krakens, etc are simply exaggerated versions of real sea creatures.
(http://www.heyadd.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/%E5%BE%AE%E4%BF%A1%E5%9B%BE%E7%89%87_20180312161825-720x270.jpg)
And finally, rebellious robots.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/avp/images/4/49/Terminator.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20101223163422)
Robots get more and more intelligent, somehow develop human emotions simultaneously, and bam, there's a robot uprising. Why would they turn on us? Because that's what we would do. These scifi stories about robots held in servitude and violently rebelling against their masters aren't really about robots, they're really about us and our own sordid history of slavery and violent revolt.
All these tales about supernatural/extraterrestrial creatures are really tales about us - our hopes and fears given form and nothing more.
You just now realize this?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 29, 2018, 04:49:27 AM
You just now realize this?
I am just now communicating this explicitly.
The robot rebellion is the most relevant because apparently a sizable portion of the public thinks the sci fi tales are literal truth and not allegory.
On the video for the army's robotic Mule, which was repeatedly shoved to test stability, there are tons of comments warning of robotic retaliation for its mistreatment. The fact that this is a projection of human norms unto a wholly non-human machine goes utterly unremarked.
Ah, you haven't realized that rude people will pull your leg completely off and not hand it back.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 28, 2018, 10:32:35 PM
the general public conceptualizes evolution as "a constant progression into perfection"
Even after learning about it, I held onto the conceptualization of evolution being a progression that would naturally and always lead to ultimate sentience with humans or some similar intelligence as a temporary link in the chain. In a sense, ultimate "perfection" I perceived as advanced intelligence, not the ability to survive some other aspect of our environment like massive bursts of global radiation or some other unexpected alteration.
I think this is common. Humans psychologically default to the view of superior intelligence as the end goal, probably because it's the only evolutionary advantage we have over any other form of life. In almost every other aspect of species durability, we fail, and we do so miserably. Without our intelligence, we would be nothing more than food for other species. We probably also view intelligence as the endpoint, because after 4 billion years of evolution, look where it ended; Us! That seems like an endpoint only because it's at the end of what came before. A history 4 billion years long and ends at us. That can't be coincidence, right? It must be a natural law or some predetermination, otherwise evolution would have gravitated to something other than us, right? We are like the arrogant puddle that thinks the hole he's in was made for him. This flawed perception is caused by our psychological make up, possibly the most flawed component of our higher intelligence.
They miss the point that it hasn't "ended" with us and it wasn't a straight progression for four billion years. The human ego is a fucking crazy thing.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 29, 2018, 08:43:51 AM
Ah, you haven't realized that rude people will pull your leg completely off and not hand it back.
Bipartisan. When it comes to fame, power and wealth, things get serious.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 29, 2018, 08:27:56 AM
I am just now communicating this explicitly.
The robot rebellion is the most relevant because apparently a sizable portion of the public thinks the sci fi tales are literal truth and not allegory.
On the video for the army's robotic Mule, which was repeatedly shoved to test stability, there are tons of comments warning of robotic retaliation for its mistreatment. The fact that this is a projection of human norms unto a wholly non-human machine goes utterly unremarked.
Look up the 1920s play, R.U.R. ... a Czech play that brought "robot" into modern language. It is a parable about Leftist revolution.
Robot workers of the world, UNITE!
Lol
Robots with AI are just another tool - like microscopes extend our eye sight, and backhoes extend our muscles, an AI only extends our brain power. What is done with it is not the fault of the tool, but of the users.
I don't view greys as anything remotely close to evolutionary perfection...
Yeah, they're so...androgynous!
Quote from: Shiranu on April 29, 2018, 06:16:28 PM
I don't view greys as anything remotely close to evolutionary perfection...
They can defrag their computer hard drive using thought alone!
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 29, 2018, 06:20:32 PM
Yeah, they're so...androgynous!
Maybe they reproduce by cellular division. Definite proof of mathematical ability, if you can do long division like that ;-)
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 29, 2018, 06:06:11 PM
Robot workers of the world, UNITE!
Lol
Robots with AI are just another tool - like microscopes extend our eye sight, and backhoes extend our muscles, an AI only extends our brain power. What is done with it is not the fault of the tool, but of the users.
Is that UNITE or-----UNTIE
Quote from: SGOS on April 29, 2018, 08:48:15 AMWe probably also view intelligence as the endpoint, because after 4 billion years of evolution, look where it ended; Us!
No doubt every other species on the planet would share that perspective if they had the intelligence to formulate it. Flowering plants - the apex of evolution. Crocodiles - the apex of evolution. Cockroaches - the apex of evolution. It's all true, from a certain point of view. :)
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 30, 2018, 12:58:04 AM
No doubt every other species on the planet would share that perspective if they had the intelligence to formulate it. Flowering plants - the apex of evolution. Crocodiles - the apex of evolution. Cockroaches - the apex of evolution. It's all true, from a certain point of view. :)
And we were dumb animals for the vast majority of that time. Right up to the last presidential election, at least.
Here's a clip from an article that might cause wonder about how reasonable it is to expect intelligence as an evolutionary advantage is likely to show up in the tree of life.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2015/05/dolphin-intelligence-human-communication/
QuoteThe last common ancestor of humans and chimps lived some six million years ago. By comparison cetaceans such as dolphins split off from the rest of the mammal lineage about 55 million years ago, and they and primates haven’t shared an ancestor for 95 million years.
We don't know what the common ancestor between primates and cetaceans was, but it was a long time ago. We are talking about a critter that existed even before the dinosaurs disappeared. If the seed for intelligence was already in that common ancestor, it seems doubtful that it would have been developed much at all. So from a very primitive state, a high degree of intelligence seems to have evolved independently at least twice on Earth. But not all types of intelligence are the same. Look at how different human and dolphin intelligence are.
This is speculation. I hope I'm not taking too many liberties here, but it's interesting to think about.
Quote from: SGOS on April 30, 2018, 08:34:11 AM
Here's a clip from an article that might cause wonder about how reasonable it is to expect intelligence as an evolutionary advantage is likely to show up in the tree of life.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2015/05/dolphin-intelligence-human-communication/
We don't know what the common ancestor between primates and cetaceans was, but it was a long time ago. We are talking about a critter that existed even before the dinosaurs disappeared. If the seed for intelligence was already in that common ancestor, it seems doubtful that it would have been developed much at all. So from a very primitive state, a high degree of intelligence seems to have evolved independently at least twice on Earth. But not all types of intelligence are the same. Look at how different human and dolphin intelligence are.
This is speculation. I hope I'm not taking too many liberties here, but it's interesting to think about.
Early mammals, in the Cretaceous, needed to be smart enough to avoid being dinosaur food. It helped to be small or tree dwelling or aquatic, since being large and land dwelling made you a tastier target.
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 29, 2018, 10:07:28 PM
Is that UNITE or-----UNTIE
Yeah, if the robots are dyslexic...
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 30, 2018, 07:14:11 AM
And we were dumb animals for the vast majority of that time. Right up to the last presidential election, at least.
I think the last presidential election proves that we're
still dumb animals.
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 30, 2018, 02:02:01 PM
I think the last presidential election proves that we're still dumb animals.
Can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, or a citizen out of a voter.
You should be making bumper stickers...or fortune cookies.
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 01, 2018, 01:25:16 PM
You should be making bumper stickers...or fortune cookies.
Fortune cookies were invented in LA, so some say. Don't blame Confucius.
I once did have the bumper sticker "Who is John Galt?" ... but that was many decades ago. That was when I lived in California.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 29, 2018, 08:43:51 AM
Ah, you haven't realized that rude people will pull your leg completely off and not hand it back.
It has to be a bit more obvious. *I* have been known to pull someone's leg and discover it in my hand afterwards...
Awkward...