http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5660649/White-mother-called-racist-calling-mixed-race-son-monkey.html
QuoteA mother has been left furious after she was branded a 'racist' by a stranger for calling her mixed-race son a 'cheeky monkey'.
The Mumsnet user, who is white, was confronted by a black woman in the park who told her she needed to 'educate' herself about her son's race.
The mother, known only by her username, Jumpiin said she was 'reeling' at the accusation, and asked other parents if she was right to be upset.
The message board was divided, as some accused her of being insensitive for giving a mixed-race boy the nickname because 'monkey' is an offensive term used against black people.
The woman accused Jumpiin of treating her son like an accessory and accused her of not knowing anything about her son's race.
She revealed that she'd actually been learning about her partner's Swahili culture, and was learning the language with her son.
She said: 'Aibu (am I being unreasonable) to think that she was in the wrong here and that she is a part of the problem?
'And to think that I can call my child whatever I want as long as there's no malice behind it?!'
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/04/26/14/4B93C12700000578-5660649-image-a-93_1524751027045.jpg)
But some Mumsnet users didn't join in with her anger, and accused her of being ignorant of the history behind the word.
ArcheryAnnie posted: 'I can understand you feeling defensive, but honestly, if you want to continue to do the best for your child, please do listen to other people who have much more experience of racism than you do.
'You might not always agree with them, but getting defensive and asking for validation from others about how mean they were to you really doesn't help either you or your child.'
EnthusiasmIsDisturbed said: 'I would have thought if you have a mixed race child you would be aware of racist terms that's have been used and avoid them
"Calling white children little/cheeky monkey doesn't come along with the same horrible connotations.'
TinklyLittleLaugh agreed: 'I'm inclined to think that, on the whole, a black woman is going to have a better understanding than a white woman, of what is or is not racist, regardless of the white woman's relationships.
'I base this on my experience as a disabled person, of having more sensitivity than a non disabled person, as to what is offensive and disablist. My able bodied husband has some idea. I would still cringe at the idea of him telling a disabled person what they should be offended by.'
However, many agreed with her, calling the unnamed woman 'ridiculous' and 'mad'.
LorelaiRoryEmily said: 'Wow. That is ridiculous op, I wouldn't give her head space. People are mad.'
JamieFrasersKilt posted: 'Does that mean when I called my socially anxious kids, chicken, I was committing some sort of faux pas? She was being completely ridiculous.'
Greenlynx agreed: 'She behaved very rude towards you. You were playing with your child. it's none of her business.'
don't think I could see a finer example of idiot millennials looking to be offended for the sake of being offended. My mum use to call me cheeky monkey as a kid, she calls her own grandkids now the same thing. It doesn't have any negative context, and those looking to be offended by something are the only problem in this.
I'd personally like to give these people something to really be offended by.
Isn't the fact her child is mixed race, by the very matter that he exists, shows she is anything but racist?
Quote from: Munch on April 27, 2018, 12:47:53 PM
Isn't the fact her child is mixed race, by the very matter that he exists, shows she is anything but racist?
I didn't read the entire thing. Is her kid offended by it?
If not, then I agree with you and I don't see a problem.
If the son is hurt by it, then he (and he alone, not the pretend-mad people who have nothing to do with it) can tell his mom about his feelings.
Either way, the mother couldn't be racist. Even if the son is offended by it and she continues to call him cheeky monkey. So at worst, she is insensitive. People confuse insensitive with ignorant, or insensitive with racist, and they do it to show the rest of us how evolved they are.
I've looked all over for origins of the term.
https://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/51/messages/863.html
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cheeky_monkey
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-626498.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8xF_2Wi4j8
There is and never has been any racial connotation to the term, my mothers used it, my grandmothers used it, I've seen people on tv use it. It is a term used affectionately to describe someone being a rascal or acting silly, that is all.
Fact this idiot woman and the idiots who believed racism was involved shows me how much certain millennials want to find offense in anything.
This reminds me of when the liberal radio stations were making a big deal about hugging the tar baby. It's not racial, but they tried to make it sound as if it were.
I would have assumed she used the word "monkey" because her son was an energetic child, not because he was dark skinned. Sounds like that other woman needs to get her head out of the gutter.
I think I've heard parents frequently call their very small children "little monkeys." It's a term of endearment.
Quote from: SGOS on April 29, 2018, 09:41:31 AM
I think I've heard parents frequently call their very small children "little monkeys." It's a term of endearment.
You can only do that if you are African-American, otherwise it is cultural misappropriation? The fact is, we are all monkeys. Parents are like Golum, children are our "precious".
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 27, 2018, 07:13:59 PM
This reminds me of when the liberal radio stations were making a big deal about hugging the tar baby. It's not racial, but they tried to make it sound as if it were.
When you play political victimization and identity politics, it is all about "me" "me" "me".
Quote from: Munch on April 27, 2018, 07:11:10 PM
I've looked all over for origins of the term.
https://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/51/messages/863.html
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cheeky_monkey
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-626498.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8xF_2Wi4j8
There is and never has been any racial connotation to the term, my mothers used it, my grandmothers used it, I've seen people on tv use it. It is a term used affectionately to describe someone being a rascal or acting silly, that is all.
Fact this idiot woman and the idiots who believed racism was involved shows me how much certain millennials want to find offense in anything.
They are passive-aggressive ... D party vs aggressive-aggressive ... R party. Basically the difference between feminine and masculine. Our politics is really about feminism, in the sense that it has co-evolved with the war between the sexes.
wtf lol Cheeky monkey is something my parents called me. It's a common thing to call your kids, regardless of their skin color. I'm pretty light-skinned too
Five Little Monkeys was a nursery rhyme I heard a lot when I was a kid. Even then, it was obvious to me that the "monkeys" in the story were children, and the rhyme was a cautionary tale.
Quote from: Blackleaf on April 29, 2018, 12:51:39 PM
Five Little Monkeys was a nursery rhyme I heard a lot when I was a kid. Even then, it was obvious to me that the "monkeys" in the story were children, and the rhyme was a cautionary tale.
I thought it was 10 little monkeys
Quote from: PickelledEggs on April 29, 2018, 12:52:30 PM
I thought it was 10 little monkeys
It probably varies depending on the region and who's telling it.
Quote from: Blackleaf on April 29, 2018, 12:53:34 PM
It probably varies depending on the region and who's telling it.
My life has been a lie
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 27, 2018, 07:13:59 PM
This reminds me of when the liberal radio stations were making a big deal about hugging the tar baby. It's not racial, but they tried to make it sound as if it were.
Liberals at my place of work, all assume that any Southern American story (B'rer Rabbit for example) is racist. They feel the same way about "tar baby" even when not used in reference to African-American children. How are folks coordinating the same delusions? Brain-washing waves from orbiting alien spaceships? Soros really is a god?
Quote from: PickelledEggs on April 29, 2018, 01:04:56 PM
My life has been a lie
All lives are "stories" told by idiots. It is your false memory and rationalizations strung together, at any particular time. And it changes over time, particularly when you are elderly, it could change daily ;-) Memory is about creative confabulation, not a video recording.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on April 29, 2018, 01:04:56 PM
My life has been a lie
:))))))))))))) (And it's ten monkeys)
Quote from: Baruch on April 29, 2018, 10:54:12 AM
The fact is, we are all monkeys.
When I was very little, I was fascinated one day by the monkeys in the zoo. I'm talking about actual monkeys in an exhibit we were looking at, not chimps, to which we are more closely related. I must have mentioned how much they looked like us to my father, who was predisposed to fundamentalism and joined a more fundamentalist church after my mother died. But he responded to my comment by introducing me to the theory of evolution, which I think he regarded as fact. I'm not sure if he later became a creationist or not. We didn't broach the topic of religion very often in our conversations in later life. My response at that young age, was to embrace evolution immediately with a kind of internal, "Of course! Our relationship to monkeys is so obvious."
The Museum of Natural History in Chicago used to have a wonderful exhibit called The Dawn of Man. It was a series of life sized dioramas of life like wax replications in their natural habitat that took up an entire hall. It traced man's history from one of the well known early archeological finds that was thought to be in our direct lineage ending with Cro-Magnon. Forty years later when visiting the museum again, I asked an attendant, a black woman, what happened to the Dawn of Man exhibit, which I wanted to see again. She informed me that it had been removed, and when I asked why, she became uncomfortable, lowered her voice in a kind of an awkward gulp, and replied, "Because it was racist," or maybe she said, "Because many people
THOUGHT it was racist."
I can't remember anything racist about what was probably a multi million dollar physical display, but didn't ask any more questions as it felt too awkward to pursue the conversation. There may or may not have been racist implications in the accompanying brief texts that accompanied the display, although after 40 years, I cannot remember what the written text said. I doubt the attendant, who was quite young, ever saw the display herself, and she seemed a bit unsure about her explanation, which she may not have been able to defend. I think she may have gotten herself in the middle of a rumor and opinion controversy that she herself was not comfortable with. She wasn't an anthropologist. The poor girl was just an attendant at the general Museum Information Desk.
A racist society produces racist dioramas. We have better ideas what Neanderthals looked like (overbuilt beetle browed Europeans) and what Cro-Magnons looked like (modern Africans, though with blue eyes in some cases). Think Bushmen. That is the opposite of the old Colonial Anthropology. Back 100 years ago, there was a battle over the origins of Egypt, where Petrie said that civilization started when more advance W Asians moved into Egypt, and Budge who said that civilization started from African culture (still to be seen in African villages back then).
The modern equivalent has been the plural-genesis vs mono-genesis debate. Turns out both are right (of course) There were multiple waves of early men who came out of Africa, and later-non-African folks were the crossbreed of older Neanderthals with more modern Africans. There weren't too many Neanderthals in the tropics (they were adapted to glacial climates), so most modern Africans have none of that early Neanderthal genome, but of course both share common African ancestry that is pre-Neanderthal (early Homo Erectus).
Similarly there were non-Africans who moved into Egypt several times ... as recently as the British Empire. But the predominant genome is NW African. There is more than one genome in Africans.
Per a discussion on another string ... both Neanderthals and early Modern Africans were equally evolved 100,000 years ago. They were simply adapted to different climates.
Quote from: Baruch on April 30, 2018, 12:50:19 PM
A racist society produces racist dioramas.
It's quite possible that was the reason it was removed, or it could have been something else. It could have been that the science has been deemed wrong or political correctness unrelated to the science was the cause. But things were getting too awkward for both the attendant and myself to pursue it further, and further discussion wasn't necessary, anyway. The bottom line was that it was gone. I couldn't see it for myself. From recent readings, I'm learning that what was thought to be direct lineage back then has been changed in the last 50 years through new discoveries. Some of this could have been fixed by changing one or two of the dioramas, but at great expense. Who knows? When I last saw it, I was in my teens. I knew less about the topic, wasn't as aware of racial issues, and political correctness had not yet been invented or at least was not as much in the public eye.
The museum did replace it with another Dawn of Man display, but was much less informative and focused on Australopithecus, without attempting to depict a clear progression from there. It's my impression is that we know less today about our precise lineage than what we
THOUGHT we knew back then. So just as matter of accuracy, the new display was probably safer and less dependent on assumption. Often, the more we learn, the more we know how much we really don't know.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on April 29, 2018, 12:52:30 PM
I thought it was 10 little monkeys
You may be thinking of "10 little Indians."
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 30, 2018, 01:56:12 PM
You may be thinking of "10 little Indians."
I thought they both were 10
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
Ten Little Monkeys
Ten 10 little monkeys,
Jumping on the bed.
One 1 fell off and bumped his head.
Mama called the doctor,
And the doctor said,
"No more monkeys,
Jumping on the bed."
Nine 9 little monkeys,
Jumping on the bed.
One 1 fell off and bumped her head.
Mama called the doctor,
And the doctor said,
"No more monkeys,
Jumping on the bed."
Eight 8 little monkeys,
Jumping on the bed.
One 1 fell off and bumped his head.
Mama called the doctor,
And the doctor said,
"No more monkeys,
Jumping on the bed."
Seven 7 little monkeys,
Jumping on the bed.
One 1 fell off and bumped her head.
Mama called the doctor,
And the doctor said,
"No more monkeys,
Jumping on the bed."
Six 6 little monkeys,
Jumping on the bed.
One 1 fell off and bumped his head.
Mama called the doctor,
And the doctor said,
"No more monkeys,
Jumping on the bed."
Five 5 little monkeys,
Jumping on the bed.
One 1 fell off and bumped her head.
Mama called the doctor,
And the doctor said,
"No more monkeys,
Jumping on the bed."
Four 4 little monkeys,
Jumping on the bed.
One 1 fell off and bumped his head.
Mama called the doctor,
And the doctor said,
"No more monkeys,
Jumping on the bed."
Three 3 little monkeys,
Jumping on the bed.
One 1 fell off and bumped her head.
Mama called the doctor,
And the doctor said,
"No more monkeys,
Jumping on the bed ."
Two 2 little monkeys,
Jumping on the bed.
One 1 fell off and bumped his head.
Mama called the doctor,
And the doctor said,
"No more monkeys,
Jumping on the bed."
One 1 little monkey,
Jumping on the bed.
One 1 fell off and bumped her head.
Mama called the doctor,
And the doctor said,
"No more monkeys,
Jumping on the bed."
I think '10 little monkeys' is related to '87 beers on the wall.'
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 30, 2018, 02:44:14 PM
I think '10 little monkeys' is related to '87 beers on the wall.'
I remember singing that song with a group of college students as we would carpool home during a break. We started at 100, but as often is the case, I don't know if we never made to 87.
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 30, 2018, 02:44:14 PM
I think '10 little monkeys' is related to '87 beers on the wall.'
I thought it was Ninty-Nine Bottles of Bonk on the Wall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrWimUuaYAc
Quote from: SGOS on April 30, 2018, 03:39:10 PM
I remember singing that song with a group of college students as we would carpool home during a break. We started at 100, but as often is the case, I don't know if we never made to 87.
I think the monkey rhyme/song, like the beer on the wall song, can start with whatever number one wants to. I do remember a 10 monkey book that I read to the grandchildren.
I've literally never heard the phrase in my life, but I doubt it was said with racist connotation.
That said, I disagree with the statement here that "She is the mother, so she OBVIOUSLY can't be racist". That is just flat out wrong, there was an article I thought was shared here about a year ago about a woman who was in some controversy due to her extremely anti-African American remarks... even though her daughter was half-black.
Having sex with a minority =/= you aren't racist.
Quote from: Shiranu on April 30, 2018, 05:03:53 PM
I've literally never heard the phrase in my life, but I doubt it was said with racist connotation.
That said, I disagree with the statement here that "She is the mother, so she OBVIOUSLY can't be racist". That is just flat out wrong, there was an article I thought was shared here about a year ago about a woman who was in some controversy due to her extremely anti-African American remarks... even though her daughter was half-black.
Having sex with a minority =/= you aren't racist.
We are all racists, and killers. Stop virtue signaling you hypocrite ;-)
Quote from: Shiranu on April 30, 2018, 05:03:53 PM
I've literally never heard the phrase in my life, but I doubt it was said with racist connotation.
That said, I disagree with the statement here that "She is the mother, so she OBVIOUSLY can't be racist". That is just flat out wrong, there was an article I thought was shared here about a year ago about a woman who was in some controversy due to her extremely anti-African American remarks... even though her daughter was half-black.
Having sex with a minority =/= you aren't racist.
Right so because a completely unrelated story happened it can be applied to this one? Trying to find a loophole for any means to excuse the ridiculous statement the other woman made
Quote from: Munch on May 01, 2018, 04:36:43 AM
Right so because a completely unrelated story happened it can be applied to this one? Trying to find a loophole for any means to excuse the ridiculous statement the other woman made
SJWs circle wagons .. no wrong analogy, they circle tee-pees ... because Rousseau.
Quote from: Munch on May 01, 2018, 04:36:43 AM
Right so because a completely unrelated story happened it can be applied to this one? Trying to find a loophole for any means to excuse the ridiculous statement the other woman made
Except I literally started, first sentence, saying I don't think this was racist.
My second remark was all it was; a remark that having a mixed baby doesn't mean you can't be racist, which was implied here.
Removal of Dawn of Man Display in Chicago explained: Constructed in 1933 and removed in 1994 because of scientific inaccuracy, at least according to the museums own website. If it was because of racist content, the museum is not publicizing that. However, I'm taking their word on this one for 3 reasons. I don't remember racist overtones, I know the content of anthropological knowledge changed in those 60 years, and I believe most museum types would applaud the institution owning up to past mistakes The picture is of one life size diorama. Some of the other museum art can be viewed here:
https://www.fieldmuseum.org/node/5036
followed by clicking on "Browse Image Gallery".
(https://i.imgur.com/cOhPRnj.jpg)
Sadly, museum dioramas are going the way of the dinosaur. They were fascinating exhibits that allowed a virtual reality experience (according to the article). Not quite, but actually better. They were much more life like, even given their static nature. I always expected the wax figures to turn around an look at me. They are being replaced by television sets that explain something or other. The last thing I want to do in a museum is watch television, but it's easier and cheaper to set up, and everyone knows how to watch a TV.
http://www.newsweek.com/2015/08/14/museum-dioramas-endangered-american-museums-358943.html
Quote
Museum Dioramas Are as Endangered as the Animals They Contain
Since museums began constructing them more than a century ago, habitat dioramas have carried millions of visitors to other times and places.
Dioramas arose in the late 1800s, largely out of a desire to return to nature following the Industrial Revolution. “These are what you might call the earliest version of virtual reality,†says Stephen Quinn, who recently retired as senior project manager and longtime diorama artist at the AMNH. The displays consist of taxidermied animals, foreground props and artfully painted panoramic backgrounds. More than just works of art, dioramas are true to science; for decades, artists and scientists went into the field to collect specimens and their surroundings and replicate them exactly as they appeared. “This sense of place and this sense of reality and a personal encounter is so strong that they are a real powerful medium for teaching science,†Quinn says.
The form peaked around the 1920s, and interest began waning after World War II. Today, dioramas are as endangered as many of the animals they portray. Since TV sets entered living rooms, and with so many subsequent technological innovations, natural history museums have agonized over what to do with their increasingly antiquated-seeming habitat dioramas. Willard Boyd, former president of Chicago’s Field Museum of Natural History, wrote in 1999 that dioramas “are often viewed by today’s visitors as a dead zoo located in a dark tunnel.â€
Quote from: Shiranu on May 01, 2018, 08:10:04 AM
Except I literally started, first sentence, saying I don't think this was racist.
My second remark was all it was; a remark that having a mixed baby doesn't mean you can't be racist, which was implied here.
Not saying that I disagree with your secondary/additional points that you made, but the fact is the way you brought them up, like they were points that were involved with her even had me a bit concerned that you were saying she was possibly racist.
Quote from: Baruch on April 30, 2018, 06:38:38 PM
We are all racists, and killers.
I, like Clarence Darrow, have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great relish.
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 01, 2018, 01:17:09 PM
I, like Clarence Darrow, have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great relish.
Your taxes have paid for hell, all tax payers do.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/NewGlitteringHorsemouse-size_restricted.gif)
Quote from: PickelledEggs on April 29, 2018, 12:52:30 PM
I thought it was 10 little monkeys
Both are true children's songs. I checked and found both. I know a lot of children's songs. There are so many variations. What you remember is what you heard.
I was a backseat passenger once of a friend and his girlfriend up front as we went to a dinner/theater play. She was involved in children education for a city govt. When she mentioned a song, I started singing it and then several more. She was surprised and asked where I had learned then. I told her I learned from Mom as a child.
She was surprised again and said "You remember"? Well sure why not? I remember songs. The words, the tones, the patterns, the inflections... They are earworms to me now. But some are better than others.