Atheistforums.com

Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Topic started by: Cavebear on March 26, 2018, 10:33:41 PM

Title: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Cavebear on March 26, 2018, 10:33:41 PM
I was trading flower seeds with someone on another site, and she got rather religious about her "And the Lord God Bless You and stuff like that.  I probably should have just ignored it, but that is hard.  So I mentioned I was an atheist.

She suddenly asked a lot of questions.  Which is a good opportunity to explain how atheists are also good peole, etc.  But she is somewhere between "a simple soul" and "dumb as a box of rocks".  It took me an hour to construct 3 paragraphs of informative yet not too challenging reply that she would understand but yet not also telling her she was an absolute twit. 

I mean, she offered "equations" to prove her point like "God=good, Devil=evil therefore "Heaven and Earth".  I don't want to start a debate (amazingly) on a site with a different focus. 

So, what do YOU do when you come across situations like that?  Do you not speak?  Do you apologize and drop the subject?  Do you reply in detail or briefly?  Are you kind or direct?  Do you consider the apparent intelligence of the other person?

And I think I did a good job of it.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Blackleaf on March 27, 2018, 01:33:56 AM
Generally when the topic of religion comes up, I ask myself a few questions.

1. Is this the time and place for this discussion?

2. Is this person going to be receptive to what I have to say?

3. Do I trust this person not to use this information to make my life harder?

The situation where the answer to all three of these questions is yes is exceptionally rare. Working as a cashier, the topic of religion would come up surprisingly often, with customers asking if I go to church, coworkers asking if I'm a Christian, people handing me booklets that I throw in the trash as soon as they're gone. But every time they asked, I gave the same response. "I don't like to discuss religion or politics at work." I just think it is in my best interests to remain neutral in that situation.

With my family, they don't ask me what I believe, but only because they expect me to agree with them and don't value my opinions. They do occasionally ask if I go to church, and I let that topic die ASAP. Some of them, particularly my sister, probably already suspect that I'm no longer a believer, but they don't push that subject. It's best not to speak of my beliefs (or lack thereof) with them as it would only make things harder for me.

There is a small circle of friends who I trust with this information. It doesn't come up often, but it does on occasion. With them, I know that my opinions will not make them think less of me, so there is little to no risk. Even still, I wouldn't talk about it if their families were within earshot. I can tell a lot of their families (at least the ones I've seen) are a lot more...vocal about what they think. If you walk into a house and you see a cross or religious decoration on every wall, you know they're going to take any once of dissension as a personal attack on themselves.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Mr.Obvious on March 27, 2018, 03:16:34 AM
In the line of my work, I keep silent and don't give my opinion at all. I work for the government, and as such it wouldn't be right.

Outside of work, as long as someone keeps claims or experiences personal, I let it slide. If they feel they can be good people because they feel the strength of God; fine. I don't care where you get your morals from, as long as they are decent enough.
But if someone makes claims beyond themselves, saying the catholic church is a force for good or how people need religion... Then I'll counter.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Cavebear on March 27, 2018, 04:00:29 AM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 27, 2018, 03:16:34 AM
In the line of my work, I keep silent and don't give my opinion at all. I work for the government, and as such it wouldn't be right.

Outside of work, as long as someone keeps claims or experiences personal, I let it slide. If they feel they can be good people because they feel the strength of God; fine. I don't care where you get your morals from, as long as they are decent enough.
But if someone makes claims beyond themselves, saying the catholic church is a force for good or how people need religion... Then I'll counter.

Well, my tolerence level is less, but if I understand your POV.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Baruch on March 27, 2018, 05:56:00 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on March 26, 2018, 10:33:41 PM
I was trading flower seeds with someone on another site, and she got rather religious about her "And the Lord God Bless You and stuff like that.  I probably should have just ignored it, but that is hard.  So I mentioned I was an atheist.

She suddenly asked a lot of questions.  Which is a good opportunity to explain how atheists are also good peole, etc.  But she is somewhere between "a simple soul" and "dumb as a box of rocks".  It took me an hour to construct 3 paragraphs of informative yet not too challenging reply that she would understand but yet not also telling her she was an absolute twit. 

I mean, she offered "equations" to prove her point like "God=good, Devil=evil therefore "Heaven and Earth".  I don't want to start a debate (amazingly) on a site with a different focus. 

So, what do YOU do when you come across situations like that?  Do you not speak?  Do you apologize and drop the subject?  Do you reply in detail or briefly?  Are you kind or direct?  Do you consider the apparent intelligence of the other person?

And I think I did a good job of it.

Thanks for trying.  Did you tell her you don't do dogmatic metaphysics either?  That is what she was doing.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Mike Cl on March 27, 2018, 11:46:07 AM
Well, Cavebear, it depends upon what I am feeling like.  Each case is separate.  If I have time/energy, I'll tackle it.  But in this county, I just basically keep my mouth shut; I live in 'Little Alabama' part of CA.  One could cut out this part of CA, move it to Alabama, and they would fit in quite well.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Munch on March 27, 2018, 12:00:23 PM
Its situational when confronted with someone of a religious belief is different, I've worked with people who have varying levels of beliefs, some casually believe in something, some believe it firmly but don't talk about it, and sometimes your find someone overt with it. Likewise with customers, I've served people who would out and out bless me for helping them, which I thank them kindly for.

If someone who has religious belief is just going about their own thing and doesn't push it or use it with malicious intent then it doesn't bother me one way or another, in your case, if all she said was 'the lord god bless you' i'd just thank her, but if she started to ask what I believe in I'd just tell her I'm atheist the same.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: aitm on March 27, 2018, 12:17:38 PM
I simply match their attitude. Just nice and sweet I let it go. Start in with an attitude and here we go.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: GSOgymrat on March 27, 2018, 12:32:55 PM
I don't mind telling people I'm an atheist but I don't discuss religion with many people simply because the topic doesn't come up. I tend to mind my own business and honestly feel that if people want to pursue some faith or religion more power to them as long as it doesn't harm people. One thing I have learned over the years is what works for me doesn't work for everyone and people need to find their own way in the world.

A couple of days ago a coworker and I were discussing our recent vacations. She asked about my trip to Los Angeles and wanted to hear details of the talk I attended with Sam Harris and Steven Pinker. She is very religious and just returned from a trip to Israel where she attended counseling training in religious faith and diversity. She had seen Sam Harris online and said she didn't expect to like him because of his views on religion but thought he made a lot of sense and wouldn't ever want to debate him. I enjoyed hearing about her training and adventures in Israel. She and I have completely different beliefs but we have more commonalities than differences. Neither is trying to change the other's mind.

I had another coworker who is a pastor, family therapist and politically conservative and he enjoyed getting my perspective on various topics. We had some fairly in-depth discussions and I think it was educational on both our parts. There were some topics we agreed on and some we couldn't because we have differing values. One reason I could discuss challenging topics with him is because he knows how to listen to understand and not listen to defend a position.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Unbeliever on March 27, 2018, 01:32:11 PM
I don't mention it, usually, unless someone tries to preach at me. I don't really want to shake anyone's faith, because if their morals are tied to that faith then they may lose their morals when they lose their faith.

I don't keep it secret, though, so a few people know I'm an unbeliever, but mostly no one seems to care what I believe or don't, which is fine by me. Sometimes, if someone does get pushy about it, I just ask them if they've ever read the whole Bible, which, invariably, they have not. So I tell them to read it all the way through and then I'll be willing to discuss it. No one so far ever has come back after reading the whole Bible to talk more about it, so the method seems to work.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: GSOgymrat on March 27, 2018, 01:49:50 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 27, 2018, 01:32:11 PM
I don't mention it, usually, unless someone tries to preach at me.

My reaction to someone preaching at me is similar to someone throwing me a sales pitch. I'm sure your product is amazing but no thanks, I don't need it.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: aitm on March 27, 2018, 06:20:04 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on March 27, 2018, 01:49:50 PM
I'm sure your product is amazing but no thank, I don't need it.

Perfect..."yeah, I tried your product...didn't live up to the billing."
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Gilgamesh on March 27, 2018, 06:43:36 PM
You know when how vegans always have to tell you that they're a vegan? That's kinda' what you did with your atheism.

If, in response to, "god bless you" you not only get a strong urge to tell someone that you're an atheist, but find it impossible to quell said urge, then you need to find some fulfillment.

What I would do, personally, would depend on who I'm talking to. If I don't like the person, I would play the role of jester, and respond with a, "hail satan." I'm an edgy faggot, for sure.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Munch on March 27, 2018, 06:55:14 PM
I've never really been in a situation where telling someone I don't know that i'm atheist, except when theres been jehovahs witnesses at the door.

I've told workmates but only after getting to know them if it comes up in conversation.

Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: GSOgymrat on March 27, 2018, 07:35:35 PM
Quote from: Munch on March 27, 2018, 06:55:14 PM
I've never really been in a situation where telling someone I don't know that i'm atheist, except when theres been jehovahs witnesses at the door.

Do you get many proselytizers at your door? I'm curious how it is in various countries.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Munch on March 28, 2018, 02:29:50 AM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on March 27, 2018, 07:35:35 PM
Do you get many proselytizers at your door? I'm curious how it is in various countries.

Like say round here we occasionally get Jehovah's witnesses knocking at the door, they knock and the second you open they start rambling with the offer for salvation, who I quickly reject with a simple no thank you.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Draconic Aiur on March 28, 2018, 03:10:24 AM
I try. However the temptation to explain my views, make them see through my eyes, or call them dumbfuck is ginormous. I end up saying walking away.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: trdsf on March 28, 2018, 12:39:13 PM
If I'm asked, I'll answer.  It's not my responsibility as to whether or not they like the answer.  And it has periodically completely flummoxed co-workers.  One told me she couldn't believe I was really an atheist because I'm "so nice".  I did point out to her that atheists are nice people too...

I don't care if they have religious stuff up in their cubicles, that's their space, if that makes it a comfortable working environment for them, fine.  I have inspirational posters up in my cube too: the Pale Blue Dot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_Blue_Dot), with Sagan's commentary beneath, and Apollo 8's Earthrise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthrise), with some comments about the planet from Douglas Adams appended thereto.

Meanwhile this weekend, I'll be enjoying a kosher-for-Passover Easter dinner with friends -- he's Jewish but only fully observant on the holy days, she's I think Northern Baptist (whichever church it is, she's Irish Protestant), and I'm starting to suspect their daughter is Cthulhutarian.  Bob only knows what their son believes; I don't think he's given it much thought.  And of course, the dogs worship them, and the cats expect worship from them.  Being an atheist in that group is nothing odd; we just don't discuss it, as it has nothing to do with our mutual friendship, and we respect each others' rights to hold our own beliefs in peaceâ€"we do the same with politics, as they're (moderate) Republicans and I'm a rock-ribbed Liberal.  We enjoy each others' company too much to want to obtrude a debate on our friendship.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Shiranu on March 28, 2018, 12:50:11 PM
QuoteIf I'm asked, I'll answer.  It's not my responsibility as to whether or not they like the answer.

This, which is probably why I haven't said I am an atheist in a good six or more years. At least here in Central Texas, no one cares if you are religious or not... at least not in the communities I hang out with.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Baruch on March 28, 2018, 12:50:48 PM
An Irish Protestant could be either Anglican (moderate) or Presbyterian (extreme).  Are they from Dublin or Belfast?
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: trdsf on March 28, 2018, 08:23:43 PM
This, by the way, is the friend I usually refer to as Evil Twin... insofar as we are each other's Evil Twin: me: gay, atheist and liberal; he: straight, theistic and conservative.

Actually, he self-identifies as a moderate now... but that's only because even he thinks what they call conservatism nowadays is completely fucked up.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Blackleaf on March 29, 2018, 12:57:37 AM
Quote from: trdsf on March 28, 2018, 08:23:43 PM
This, by the way, is the friend I usually refer to as Evil Twin... insofar as we are each other's Evil Twin: me: gay, atheist and liberal; he: straight, theistic and conservative.

Actually, he self-identifies as a moderate now... but that's only because even he thinks what they call conservatism nowadays is completely fucked up.

Well... He isn't wrong.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: PickelledEggs on March 29, 2018, 01:55:29 AM
I live near NYC, so I have a hefty load of atheist friends, to the point that I am so accustom to speaking with atheists that I forget that not everyone is an atheist. For the most part religion/superstition doesn't come up, but when it does, I don't hold back my quick-witted remarks about it. This isn't to insult the people I'm talking to, I say this thinking my audience would think it's funny or amusing or at least connect with it.

There are occasions where someone would say something religious to me and family, or stranger or whatever, I usually just reply with something like "I'm an atheist, but thank you"

It usually gets dropped there, but if it doesn't it goes one of two ways
The first way is more common, the second less so:
The first way is that we get in to a discussion and it goes smoothly/respectfully. I don't hold back with my criticisms, but I make sure that I am critical of the belief and not the people. The religious person usually sees that atheists aren't that bad or already felt that way in the first place and we go on our way, agreeing to disagree. I'm not going to change their mind, and they aren't going to change my mind. I do hope I planted some intellectual seeds that cause them to think about what they currently believe and move forward in life without being intellectually stunted by their belief system, though.

The second way is that they are initially persistent/hostile/assertive and want to have me pray participate with them while they pray for me or just plain insist on arguing with me.

In that case, I take it as it comes and I address each of these instances differently... anywhere from walking away, to talking back to them right to their face and everything in between.

I have rarely got in to a discussion about religion, since realizing I was an atheist over 10 years ago with my extended family, but it's usually the first one with them. Very short and respectful. If anything, if it starts leaning towards the second one, I still don't hold back and I treat them like I would anyone else and be honest about it. Same thing with friends. I have a few still that are religious, christian, muslim, jewish.... In fact the subject came up with one of my closest friends, who happens to be very devoted as a christian, but when we discuss religion, which it sometimes comes up, we tend to agree about the points we're discussing. In the case with him, I don't look to change his faith, because it's utterly harmless.

In terms of other friends though, I have discarded them without hesitation. It was always mutual, though. You could always tell they didn't want anything to do with me anyway, being a filthy hell-bound heathen. We've gotten in to arguments about things, it would usually come to a point where they would say something like "I respect your opinion, but you shouldn't say that" which is completely contradictory of it's self... in one sentence. I have enough friends to not have to deal with that crap. If someone is too religious for it to be persistent in our interactions, I can find new friends where it wouldn't be the case.

Life is too short for that shit. Luckily I life in an area where I know I can find more non-religious people, if need be... which, it's always nice to find more anyway, but you get the point. Plus with facebook groups and shit, it's insanely easy to network and find more nonreligious people in your area. I think Meetup also has some communities.

I tangented.... whatever. Uhhh I hope I was of some help lol
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Cavebear on March 29, 2018, 08:30:03 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 27, 2018, 11:46:07 AM
Well, Cavebear, it depends upon what I am feeling like.  Each case is separate.  If I have time/energy, I'll tackle it.  But in this county, I just basically keep my mouth shut; I live in 'Little Alabama' part of CA.  One could cut out this part of CA, move it to Alabama, and they would fit in quite well.

We are pretty much on the same page here Mike Cl.  If I have time and a civil approach in mind, I will ask questions.  When I get "Oh Thank You God And Your Given Son Jesus From Whom All Blessings Flow", vs "Bless You"  I am inclined to react a bit more strongly than to the former than than the latter.    There is a point of obnoxious assumption that crosses the line for me.

But do understand that I never start a response to theists with "You stupid moron".

I save that for my friends. LOL!  Because I expect they can handle it and my silly theist friends on non-atheist sites probably can't.  Yup. I'm more challenging to intelligent people than theist morons.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Baruch on March 30, 2018, 12:53:23 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on March 29, 2018, 08:30:03 PM
We are pretty much on the same page here Mike Cl.  If I have time and a civil approach in mind, I will ask questions.  When I get "Oh Thank You God And Your Given Son Jesus From Whom All Blessings Flow", vs "Bless You"  I am inclined to react a bit more strongly than to the former than than the latter.    There is a point of obnoxious assumption that crosses the line for me.

But do understand that I never start a response to theists with "You stupid moron".

I save that for my friends. LOL!  Because I expect they can handle it and my silly theist friends on non-atheist sites probably can't.  Yup. I'm more challenging to intelligent people than theist morons.

As always, you think so highly of yourself ...
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Unbeliever on March 30, 2018, 01:25:39 PM
What - and you don't?
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: PickelledEggs on March 30, 2018, 02:14:03 PM
Quote from: Baruch on March 30, 2018, 12:53:23 AM
As always, you think so highly of yourself ...
No one thinks as highly of themselves as you do of yourself, Baruch. Let's be clear on that one
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Baruch on March 30, 2018, 06:34:13 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 30, 2018, 01:25:39 PM
What - and you don't?

I actually think people are equal.  Equally bad.

Y'all can join a monastery of flagellants .. if you actually hate yourselves.  Not?  Didn't think so.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Unbeliever on March 30, 2018, 06:43:37 PM
Flagellants - like these guys?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4q6eaLn2mY


[edit]
I'd want to be the guy holding the flag/banner, or whatever that it he's carrying.
[/edit]
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Unbeliever on March 30, 2018, 07:09:02 PM
Or maybe these guys?


Filipinos celebrate Easter with crucifixion, flogging (http://www.france24.com/en/20180330-filipinos-celebrate-easter-with-crucifixion-flogging)
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Baruch on March 30, 2018, 09:25:02 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 30, 2018, 07:09:02 PM
Or maybe these guys?


Filipinos celebrate Easter with crucifixion, flogging (http://www.france24.com/en/20180330-filipinos-celebrate-easter-with-crucifixion-flogging)

Yes, except not theists, but nihilists, who beat themselves and each other, because they are nothing, and their lives have no meaning because logically "nothing" doesn't have a meaning.  If you understand that this web site is Golgotha, then you are ready for Easter.  Except the Buddhists have literally beaten you there.

The figure of Jesus isn't Gentile, but Jewish, but he is also Buddhist.  He founded a Jewish Sangha, his teachings were a communally lived Dharma.  His original enlightenment was in the Judean desert against Mara aka Satan.   Dying he achieved Paranirvana.  Having ascended and being seen in many forms in many places (typical yoga miracles) he became what he already was, the Christ aka Dharmakaya, a condition his Sangha could now share.  Mahayana Buddhism for lay people, not monks ... but led by monks (aka apostles).

People in Antioch and Alexandra had already been exposed to Buddhism for 250 years, and there were renunciants of various kinds all over that region.  Later the original renunciants, having separated from lay clergy, became the origin of Christian hermits and monks.  This would be obvious, even if there were no historical Jesus figures.  But Western culture blinds us to the very Jewish and very Buddhist aspects of this miracle play (as there was a miracle play about Bacchus/Baal in Tarsus in those days).

The Gospel is oral theater ... and wouldn't have happened the way it did without Greek culture in the Middle East ... theater originated in Dionysus worship in Athens, with the martyrdom of Socrates their greatest death scene.  Without the wine of Passover, this would be unintelligible.  So for Passover/Easter, I think I will have a drink.  Because this is a good Friday.
Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Sal1981 on March 30, 2018, 09:45:11 PM
I only respond when when pressed about my beliefs. Otherwise I let it slide for the most part, mainly because I've learned that actions speak louder than words.

I do remember somewhat recently a pastor (of all people) doing what I call "field work" at a local pub asking me if I believed in God. I simply said "no." And a friend of mine listening in added, "oh, he's an atheist". I rolled my eyes at this comment, because this pastor became curious as to why I was an atheist. I short-handedly said that I simply didn't believe because of lack of tangible proof. I sort of wanted to leave it at that, and this pastor didn't ask more after that other than saying something vague about faith, which I don't quite remember what it was, I was after all a bit drunk.

Sendt fra min SM-G920F med Tapatalk

Title: Re: Talking To Theists You Don't Want To Offend
Post by: Cavebear on April 05, 2018, 12:38:47 AM
Outstanding posts, my fellow atheists...