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Humanities Section => History General Discussion => Topic started by: Baruch on March 21, 2018, 06:56:37 PM

Title: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Baruch on March 21, 2018, 06:56:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxdRTaAp5Fw

Not long ago, I read about the metal defects in the hull of the Titanic.  What this new video claims, is that there was a low grade coal fire in the coal storage area, and that the captain knew about it before he sailed.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on March 21, 2018, 09:16:42 PM
Perhaps, perhaps not, but one thing is certain and the certainty is the maker of the video just had to toss in lots of extra information having absolutely nothing to do with how the ship sank such as mention of the hair salon, how dogs were treated for first class passengers, oak paneling on the stairwells and on and on.. That kind of trivial nonsense is why I lose interest in many videos of this kind and tend to think of them as mere sensationalism..
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: SGOS on March 22, 2018, 06:30:06 AM
Mostly, it retold what I already knew.  Greed, negligence, and disregard for safety sunk the Titanic.  But don't disregard the role of the iceberg.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 22, 2018, 11:08:16 AM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-OKT8ROmsHU/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 22, 2018, 11:09:06 AM
Is there any way we could get the imgfit code?
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Jason78 on March 22, 2018, 08:37:20 PM
Truth is that which comports with reality.

As we learn more about reality, truth changes.

QED.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Cavebear on March 23, 2018, 01:32:45 AM
Truth is that which comports with reality.

As we learn more about reality, truth changes.

QED.

Seems reasonable.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Hydra009 on March 23, 2018, 01:51:24 AM
Truth is that which comports with reality.

As we learn more about reality, truth changes.

QED.
Exactly.  But the whole fuzzy nature of it all (plus, lots of unknowns - only some get revealed, and usually gradually) can be pretty hard on people who want definitive, unchanging answers right now.

People like easy, immediate answers and hate uncertainty almost as much as they hate change.  Remember when Pluto got reclassified?  I thought I'd never hear the end of it.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Cavebear on March 23, 2018, 02:03:55 AM
Exactly.  But the whole fuzzy nature of it all (plus, lots of unknowns - only some get revealed, and usually gradually) can be pretty hard on people who want definitive, unchanging answers right now.

People like easy, immediate answers and hate uncertainty almost as much as they hate change.  Remember when Pluto got reclassified?  I thought I'd never hear the end of it.

I always considered Pluto not a true planet because its orbit was off the solar plane, it was too small, and the orbit was too elliptical.  I always thought it was just "captured".
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Jason78 on March 23, 2018, 03:09:23 AM
Exactly.  But the whole fuzzy nature of it all (plus, lots of unknowns - only some get revealed, and usually gradually) can be pretty hard on people who want definitive, unchanging answers right now.

People like easy, immediate answers and hate uncertainty almost as much as they hate change.  Remember when Pluto got reclassified?  I thought I'd never hear the end of it.

If you want definitive unchanging answers;  join a cult!   It you want to live in the real world, answers can change.   
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 23, 2018, 05:59:07 AM
I'm not interested in truth, just facts.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Baruch on March 23, 2018, 06:28:42 AM
I'm not interested in truth, just facts.

Truth = meaning, which is always the interpretation of facts ... and the focus of religion and politics.  I have heard two interpretations now, of the metal failure of the Titanic ... one was bad material used in construction, now it is said to be a coal bin fire.  But it is a fact, because of a sample taken of the metal from the wreck, that the steel couldn't tolerate a blow from an iceberg without cracking like an egg.  Lack of ductility.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: SGOS on March 23, 2018, 09:02:43 AM
I'm not interested in truth, just facts.
Worthy point.  One of the first times I experienced pedantic confusion was when I was eight or so, when I heard someone either say or read from the Bible, "I am the Lord thy God.  I am the truth and the light."  How can an entity be the truth?  I had been taught to tell the truth.  I had a definition which I still use today: The truth is something you tell when you are not lying. It may or may not address facts, but it does not certify accuracy.  It is at best an affirmation that you believe what you are saying.

I resolved my confusion by concluding that "Truth" could be used incorrectly in  the Bible or in poetry, as long as one would catch the drift of the thought even while the language was being slaughtered.  Good thing too, since I have come to know that I live in a society where people do that all the time.

"Facts" are somewhat different than truth and assumed to be based on data or direct observation.  Data and observation can be wrong too, but are more trustworthy than belief.  I think an even better thing than "fact" would be "reality."  But now that I've asserted that, it strikes me that the meaning of "reality" can be slaughtered in common usage just as well.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 23, 2018, 10:02:34 AM
I worked 25 years on this site: ibiblio.org/hyperwar, to help people get their facts straight.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: SGOS on March 23, 2018, 11:15:43 AM
I read Chapter 20 from your link, http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AMH/AMH/AMH-20.html and found it very interesting and quite detailed.  Even as a war baby born in 1943, I didn't fully realize the complexity of World War II.  While this does understate my knowledge of the war, my impression was:  Hitler goes berserk, defeats most of Europe, threatens England and Russia.  United States steps in, kicks ass, and ends the war in Europe.  Then defeats Japan.

Of course, I knew there was more involved, but Chapter 20 gives a clearer picture of our near miffs and misses.  History often gives the impression of an inevitable outcome based on an armchair gift of hindsight.  I picked up the sense of urgency in Chapter 20, how unprepared were, the planning, cooperation, and conflicting strategies between politicians and a more knowledgeable military leadership, but most of all, how complex the whole thing was.  A vast complicated set of Allied strategies to defend modern Western civilization and ideology, and the sense of tension not knowing for sure what the outcome would be.

One of my earliest vivid memories was when I was 2 years old in 1945.  I didn't know much.  I didn't know what war was, at least I can't remember knowing what war was.  I got out of bed and went to the kitchen as I usually did.  My mother was sitting at the breakfast table reading the paper, although I don't remember knowing what a newspaper was.  My dad came into the kitchen at the same time, and my mother held up the paper showing my father the headline, and said "The War is Over."  My father didn't take the paper.  But without a show of emotion or words, he nodded a knowing acknowledgement.  I may have picked up approval or a tinge of relief in both my parents.   I remember not knowing what all this meant, but I did somehow understand that this was a very important thing, like maybe the most important thing that there would ever be.  I guess that's why I still remember it, even though I didn't really know what it was at the time.

Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 23, 2018, 11:33:48 AM
I was just one of a dozen historians working on that project. The next generation of historians have the conn now.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: SGOS on March 23, 2018, 11:47:43 AM
Hopefully, they will do as good a job.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 23, 2018, 12:36:41 PM
Hopefully, they will do as good a job.
I have no doubt. I've been "shopping around" for five years. The top choice is one of the admins at ww2f.com/ww2t.com, name of Otto. Hardcore history, that boy.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Cavebear on March 23, 2018, 05:49:46 PM
I have no doubt. I've been "shopping around" for five years. The top choice is one of the admins at ww2f.com/ww2t.com, name of Otto. Hardcore history, that boy.

Retire at Will, sir!
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 23, 2018, 05:55:39 PM
Retire at Will, sir!
We shall retire in good order in the face of an enemy who is advancing in an utter rout.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Baruch on March 23, 2018, 06:33:37 PM
We shall retire in good order in the face of an enemy who is advancing in an utter rout.

You are fighting France?

No history before about 5 or 10 years ago, about WW II, is worth a damn, because of lack of knowing about Ultra and Double Cross.  And much of that is still classified.

A war history is also a political history.  And politics is all lies, all the time.  What is the best propaganda for governments today, is different than it was in 1968 for example.  Who controls the past, controls the future.

Professional historians still don't agree if either Patton or Rommel were worth a damn.  I am pretty sure without Ike we would be speaking German however.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Cavebear on March 23, 2018, 11:37:58 PM
We shall retire in good order in the face of an enemy who is advancing in an utter rout.

Well there is certainly nothing wrong by chasing an army in defeat.  The best way to stop a war...
  But my experience in studying some battles says that sometomes the winning army withdrew not understanding their good position.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Hydra009 on March 24, 2018, 12:00:02 AM
  But my experience in studying some battles says that sometomes the winning army withdrew not understanding their good position.
(https://www.civilwar.org/sites/default/files/styles/scale_crop_380x370/public/thumbnails/image/General%20George%20B%20McClellan%20Square.jpg?itok=8Jx2h44m)

"Did someone say my name?"
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Cavebear on March 24, 2018, 12:08:40 AM
(https://www.civilwar.org/sites/default/files/styles/scale_crop_380x370/public/thumbnails/image/General%20George%20B%20McClellan%20Square.jpg?itok=8Jx2h44m)

"Did someone say my name?"

Ah George B. McClellen.  The man who could organize an army but not use it .
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 24, 2018, 05:37:33 AM
"Gen. McClellan, if you're not planning on using our army I wonder if I might borrow it?" Abraham Lincoln.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Baruch on March 24, 2018, 10:44:56 AM
  But my experience in studying some battles says that sometomes the winning army withdrew not understanding their good position.

Kudos
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Baruch on March 24, 2018, 10:47:54 AM
"Gen. McClellan, if you're not planning on using our army I wonder if I might borrow it?" Abraham Lincoln.

Monty was guilty of meticulous planning and thanks to Ultra knew his enemies position and supplies.  McClellan did not (he had observation balloons however).  The idea of one army surprising another, as at Chancellorsville is inconceivable today, but was still possible in 1939 in N France.

Opinions differ on Monty .. but I consider Market Garden was a letdown by poor staff work ... and Ultra didn't tell him that there were Panzers already there.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Cavebear on March 26, 2018, 02:13:54 AM
"Gen. McClellan, if you're not planning on using our army I wonder if I might borrow it?" Abraham Lincoln.

Great line from the Civil War.  One of my favorites.  After Grant saying "I will fight on this line all Summer".

The Western front produced Union Generals who knew how to fight.  Grant, Sherman, Thomas, Rosecrans.    And Grant found that Meade in the East was the same.  Grant told Sherman to destroy the Southern Confederate armies while he and Meade engaged Lee in the East.  Sherman marched to the Atlantic destroying all the western confederate armies, and Grant surrounded Lee at Petersburg and Richmond.  That essentially ended the war. It just took time. 

War is all about figuring out what advantages you have.  When Lee met Grant, he was defeated by concept.  Grant understood how to win the war.  And you know something I've always liked about Grant?  He wore a privates uniform with just his stars on the collar, he sat around them and ate the same food they did, and his boots were muddy.  He didn't care a damn for respect or appearance.  He just planned one attack after another, patiently winning the war.  Because it was the only way to do it.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 26, 2018, 05:48:09 AM
Sherman was just looking for a beach.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Baruch on March 26, 2018, 07:16:42 AM
Great line from the Civil War.  One of my favorites.  After Grant saying "I will fight on this line all Summer".

The Western front produced Union Generals who knew how to fight.  Grant, Sherman, Thomas, Rosecrans.    And Grant found that Meade in the East was the same.  Grant told Sherman to destroy the Southern Confederate armies while he and Meade engaged Lee in the East.  Sherman marched to the Atlantic destroying all the western confederate armies, and Grant surrounded Lee at Petersburg and Richmond.  That essentially ended the war. It just took time. 

War is all about figuring out what advantages you have.  When Lee met Grant, he was defeated by concept.  Grant understood how to win the war.  And you know something I've always liked about Grant?  He wore a privates uniform with just his stars on the collar, he sat around them and ate the same food they did, and his boots were muddy.  He didn't care a damn for respect or appearance.  He just planned one attack after another, patiently winning the war.  Because it was the only way to do it.

Yes, Grant and Sherman knew how to kill people, both their opponents and their own soldiers.  But that is war for you.  The East Coast folk were too educated ... except for Chamberlain (at Lt Round Top).  The Southern scions were also a bit too educated as well.  College wasn't what you needed back then.
Title: Re: What is truth/history? It just keeps on changing ...
Post by: Cavebear on March 27, 2018, 02:41:47 AM
Sherman was just looking for a beach.

And he got there.  They had a good rest in Savannah before heading north.