Is this a tabu subject where everybody is deemed equal?
Political correctness forbids to talk about this.
Facts be damned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF8F7tjmy_U
Very tricky. Hard to define. IQ vs EQ. And "Law of Averages". For immigration (one of their shared concerns) you can't use the "Law of Averages" ... that the average IQ of a person from Africa is lower than the average IQ of a European. Immigrants should be vetted. Give each immigrant an IQ test, in their primary language, and only let in the high scores. This has traditionally been ...
1. Make it almost impossible to become an immigrant (see France)
2. Don't allow in refugees aka uncritical admittance (see Japan)
3. Have a quota (see US)
4. Preferentially allow in the college educated (see US)
5. Allow doctors and engineers to immigrate in (see US)
Can't help if your country gives up sovereignty, or thinks that refugees have rights to your country.
N American immigration policy is somehow better than the European version. We don't have little countries with their own languages (except Quebec).
Now what is IQ? Partly language, partly culture ... and partly basic intelligence.
What is EQ? Partly sociability, partly mental stability ... and partly personality.
Here is the entrance exam for Cornell University 1891 (in upstate NY). Few here could pass it as an IQ test ...
http://cornellalumnimagazine.com/could-you-have-passed/
Almost nobody here could pass an EQ test. Better not immigrate, better stay in quarantine in Outer Slobovia.
While I am pro-immigrant ... I am not pro UN aka that since all people are in the UN, that anyone should be able to immigrate anywhere they like ... same as someone in Texas can immigrate to California.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGp06vMPERE
This is another steaming pile of shit.
Question how "intelligence" is measured. Is it a fair test across cultures? What exactly does it measure? How do you know? Who designs these tests that measure intelligence?
Quote from: Mermaid on March 04, 2018, 01:44:55 PM
This is another steaming pile of shit.
Question how "intelligence" is measured. Is it a fair test across cultures? What exactly does it measure? How do you know? Who designs these tests that measure intelligence?
I appreciate your scepticism. I don't have time to answer all those questions in sufficient detail but bottom line is intelligence is measurable, there is a lot of solid research to support this, but it is very difficult to design an intelligence test that is culturally unbiased. An IQ test can identify those individuals who would be considered intelligent by Western standards, but you're not going to be able to answer the question of whether you're picking out people who are most intelligent according to the standards of their culture. I encourage you not to simply take my word for it and research IQ if you are interested.
If IQ testing didn't accurately measure cognitive ability there would be no ethical problem, but it does and therefore it is an ethical minefield. The problem Peterson addresses is how psychologists and educators assumed if students with low or high intelligence were identified education could be tailored to suit their needs. However research is showing educational interventions aren't effective at improving IQ. There is an argument to be made that if educational programs don't improve IQ there is little reason to test children, that the benefits no longer outweigh the risks. One of the risks of IQ testing is certain people use IQ to justify existing prejudices or political ideologies.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on March 04, 2018, 02:52:27 PM
I appreciate your scepticism. I don't have time to answer all those questions in sufficient detail but bottom line is intelligence is measurable, there is a lot of solid research to support this, but it is very difficult to design an intelligence test that is culturally unbiased. An IQ test can identify those individuals who would be considered intelligent by Western standards, but you're not going to be able to answer the question of whether you're picking out people who are most intelligent according to the standards of their culture. I encourage you not to simply take my word for it and research IQ if you are interested.
If IQ testing didn't accurately measure cognitive ability there would be no ethical problem, but it does and therefore it is an ethical minefield. The problem Peterson addresses is how psychologists and educators assumed if students with low or high intelligence were identified education could be tailored to suit their needs. However research is showing educational interventions aren't effective at improving IQ. There is an argument to be made that if educational programs don't improve IQ there is little reason to test children, that the risks no longer outweigh the benefits. One of the risks of IQ testing is certain people use IQ to justify existing prejudices or political ideologies.
Thank you for articulating what I am generally too lazy to think out. :)
Very low level, language and cultural independent testing is possible. But I also doubt that it is actionable. Other factors in educational outcome wash it out (except for the profoundly retarded)
Quote from: pr126 on March 04, 2018, 05:25:45 AM
Is this a tabu subject where everybody is deemed equal?
Political correctness forbids to talk about this.
Facts be damned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF8F7tjmy_U
PR, your new avatar isn't fair. I can't dislike a cat!
That cat looks rather feral. Appropriate for him, yes?
Quote from: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 10:16:24 PM
That cat looks rather feral. Appropriate for him, yes?
Not feral. A street cat, a fighter. Other cats don't want to mess with him.
Quote from: pr126 on March 05, 2018, 11:00:24 PM
Not feral. A street cat, a fighter. Other cats don't want to mess with him.
My mother's tom cat, when I was little ... the dogs crossed to the other side of the street to avoid him ;-)
Quote from: pr126 on March 05, 2018, 11:00:24 PM
Not feral. A street cat, a fighter. Other cats don't want to mess with him.
Kind of reminds me of that cat in Get Fuzzy.
Quote from: pr126 on March 05, 2018, 11:00:24 PM
Not feral. A street cat, a fighter. Other cats don't want to mess with him.
Big handsome thing.
Immigration, if it is restricted at all rather than being disallowed entirely, should preferably be restricted by objective tests or a preponderance of evidence that the specific individual is unfit to be allowed in. IQ, unfortunately, is more voodoo than science. It's measuring something, but it's never been validated that it's actually measuring intelligence, rather than something else, or a mixture of a bunch of factors (including in part intelligence).
Besides, proper IQ tests (not the shit you find in the back of OMNI magazine) are expensive to administer, on the order of hundreds of dollars per person, not to mention the time involved â€" over millions of immigrants per year (that pass the immigration tests; implying that more apply than this and fail), that quickly adds up. I don't think any nation has that kind of cash to spare, at least on immigration.
Quote from: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 10:16:24 PM
That cat looks rather feral. Appropriate for him, yes?
No, actually I don't see his avatar cat as feral. Sort of mildly Catnipped.
Quote from: Cavebear on March 08, 2018, 05:24:05 AM
No, actually I don't see his avatar cat as feral. Sort of mildly Catnipped.
You mean ... he can't father kittens? Ow.
Quote from: Baruch on March 08, 2018, 08:04:38 PM
You mean ... he can't father kittens? Ow.
Another nonsensical reply...
Quote from: Cavebear on March 12, 2018, 06:09:34 AM
Another nonsensical reply...
Double entendre (intentional or otherwise) wasted on you.
Quote from: Baruch on March 12, 2018, 06:40:44 AM
Double entendre (intentional or otherwise) wasted on you.
"father kittens" is not a "double entendre".
Quote from: Cavebear on March 12, 2018, 08:08:28 AM
"father kittens" is not a "double entendre".
Catnipped ... would have more than one meaning to me. You aren't hopeless, but you didn't spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express either.
Quote from: Baruch on March 12, 2018, 01:08:45 PM
Catnipped ... would have more than one meaning to me. You aren't hopeless, but you didn't spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express either.
First, you didn't explain "how fathered kittens" was a double-entandre. Second, you didn't explain how "catnipped" factored in. Third, I went on a lot of unwanted Govt travel and it wasn't mostly at 2 star motels at best. I had to sleep in rooms with a narrow bed and no place to even change your thoughts in.
Quote from: Cavebear on March 12, 2018, 01:33:17 PM
First, you didn't explain "how fathered kittens" was a double-entandre. Second, you didn't explain how "catnipped" factored in. Third, I went on a lot of unwanted Govt travel and it wasn't mostly at 2 star motels at best. I had to sleep in rooms with a narrow bed and no place to even change your thoughts in.
Ah, but back then, for a quarter, you could get a vibrating bed!
The East Asians have the highest mean IQ in the world (105) and yet China is a developing country. This seems to be the biggest anomaly as far as global IQs are concerned.
Quote from: Alexmahone on March 14, 2018, 10:39:11 AM
The East Asians have the highest mean IQ in the world (105) and yet China is a developing country. This seems to be the biggest anomaly as far as global IQs are concerned.
Well history is more complicated than chauvinists give credit to. I would doubt that "all E Asians" have high IQ for example. That is the problem with reasoning from "averages". For much of Chinese history, their problems were self inflicted, the barbarians outside China (see Japanese-Chinese wars of 1931-1945) simply took advantage of their temporary weakness.
But history should demonstrate, if you have patience, never count the Chinese out either. Even Confucianism is making a comeback. In some respects the Japanese for example are scary-smart ... and yet they flew out of control in their foreign policy under Hirohito. Perhaps they would have done better with an Emperor who wasn't an amateur marine biologist.
Quote from: Alexmahone on March 14, 2018, 10:39:11 AM
The East Asians have the highest mean IQ in the world (105) and yet China is a developing country. This seems to be the biggest anomaly as far as global IQs are concerned.
IQ scores are determined by the questions asked. Some studies suggest they are not evenly measured in different ethnic and sociological groups. There are many objections to some questions on the tests. Additionally, the scores can be affected by several aspects. Most notably, who takes the tests matters. Some nations only test their best students, which has an obvious effect. And some nations tend to "teach to the tests" meaning that they focus on the kinds of questions asked on IQ tests, thinking that is the best way to learn.
There is no true IQ test. A true IQ test would have unexpected questions. And there are only limited kinds of questions the designers can imagine.
Quote from: Cavebear on March 15, 2018, 02:14:31 AM
IQ scores are determined by the questions asked. Some studies suggest they are not evenly measured in different ethnic and sociological groups. There are many objections to some questions on the tests. Additionally, the scores can be affected by several aspects. Most notably, who takes the tests matters. Some nations only test their best students, which has an obvious effect. And some nations tend to "teach to the tests" meaning that they focus on the kinds of questions asked on IQ tests, thinking that is the best way to learn.
There is no true IQ test. A true IQ test would have unexpected questions. And there are only limited kinds of questions the designers can imagine.
That was very good. Feeling better I hope?
Quote from: Cavebear on March 15, 2018, 02:14:31 AM
IQ scores are determined by the questions asked. Some studies suggest they are not evenly measured in different ethnic and sociological groups. There are many objections to some questions on the tests. Additionally, the scores can be affected by several aspects. Most notably, who takes the tests matters. Some nations only test their best students, which has an obvious effect. And some nations tend to "teach to the tests" meaning that they focus on the kinds of questions asked on IQ tests, thinking that is the best way to learn.
There is no true IQ test. A true IQ test would have unexpected questions. And there are only limited kinds of questions the designers can imagine.
Have you heard of Raven's Progressive Matrices where the test taker completes a geometric design with the missing piece? This is what is used on most IQ tests and it can't possibly be culturally biased.
Different populations may have different IQ distributions. Although Whites (mean: 99) have a lower mean IQ than East Asians (mean: 105), their scores are more spread out. As a result, there are more White geniuses than East Asian geniuses. Similarly, the IQ scores of men are more spread out than women although their means are approximately equal.
East Asians and Whites have higher mean IQs than South Asians and Blacks because they evolved in much colder environments. Colder environments tend to be more cognitively demanding because one has to make needles/thread for clothing and find a way to preserve food as hunting animals everyday may not be possible.
Quote from: Alexmahone on March 15, 2018, 08:44:03 PM
Have you heard of Raven's Progressive Matrices where the test taker completes a geometric design with the missing piece? This is what is used on most IQ tests and it can't possibly be culturally biased.
Different populations may have different IQ distributions. Although Whites (mean: 99) have a lower mean IQ than East Asians (mean: 105), their scores are more spread out. As a result, there are more White geniuses than East Asian geniuses. Similarly, the IQ scores of men are more spread out than women although their means are approximately equal.
East Asians and Whites have higher mean IQs than South Asians and Blacks because they evolved in much colder environments. Colder environments tend to be more cognitively demanding because one has to make needles/thread for clothing and find a way to preserve food as hunting animals everyday may not be possible.
A good test (yes, not biased). Simply empower all Mensa member to expel the populations of dims to Antarctica. The highest average IQ I hear, is among New Guinea natives ... because it has been a challenging lifestyle there for millennia. Yes, cold is challenging, but not as challenging as head hunters and cannibals. Smarts isn't everything, or do you have a pig tusk thru your nose too?
I think you are treading on thin ice (cold reference). I would take a smart African any day over a stupid Swede. Measure people individually or not at all.
Quote from: Alexmahone on March 14, 2018, 10:39:11 AM
The East Asians have the highest mean IQ in the world (105) and yet China is a developing country. This seems to be the biggest anomaly as far as global IQs are concerned.
It's only an anomaly if you assume 'developing country' necessitates that it's that way because its inhabitants aren't intelligent. There are many factors as to why it's technically a developing country.
Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 15, 2018, 09:17:09 PM
It's only an anomaly if you assume 'developing country' necessitates that it's that way because its inhabitants aren't intelligent. There are many factors as to why it's technically a developing country.
What are those factors? I'm curious! (I guess the fact that it's a socialist state is one of them.)
Quote from: Baruch on March 15, 2018, 08:50:18 PM
A good test (yes, not biased). Simply empower all Mensa member to expel the populations of dims to Antarctica. The highest average IQ I hear, is among New Guinea natives ... because it has been a challenging lifestyle there for millennia. Yes, cold is challenging, but not as challenging as head hunters and cannibals. Smarts isn't everything, or do you have a pig tusk thru your nose too?
I think you are treading on thin ice (cold reference). I would take a smart African any day over a stupid Swede. Measure people individually or not at all.
No one disputes that a smart African could have a higher IQ than a stupid Swede; I was just talking about averages.
Charles Murray justifies studying intellectual differences among races on the grounds that if we didn't study them, we would falsely attribute all the educational and socio-economic disparities between blacks and whites in a society to discrimination and racism.
I'm not treading on thin ice because I'm South Asian (mean: 84) myself. :D
Quote from: Alexmahone on March 15, 2018, 10:06:11 PM
No one disputes that a smart African could have a higher IQ than a stupid Swede; I was just talking about averages.
Charles Murray justifies studying intellectual differences among races on the grounds that if we didn't study them, we would falsely attribute all the educational and socio-economic disparities between blacks and whites in a society to discrimination and racism.
I'm not treading on thin ice because I'm South Asian (mean: 84) myself. :D
South Asians have no prejudices? Not just on this subject, please forget about averages. On average we are half conscious, because we spend half our life asleep. And yes, politicians attribute X to Y ... as benefits their propaganda. Don't listen to politicians, then their lies will be less trouble.
Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 15, 2018, 09:17:09 PM
It's only an anomaly if you assume 'developing country' necessitates that it's that way because its inhabitants aren't intelligent. There are many factors as to why it's technically a developing country.
"Developing Country" and "Intelligence" have no connection. You make a false analogy and argument there.
Quote from: Cavebear on March 17, 2018, 03:27:48 AM
"Developing Country" and "Intelligence" have no connection. You make a false analogy and argument there.
Reread what you just quoted, bud.
Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 17, 2018, 03:44:36 AM
Reread what you just quoted, bud.
I suggested that "developing country" and IQ were not connected. What do you consider incorrect about that? And my name isn't "Bud".
Quote from: Alexmahone on March 15, 2018, 08:44:03 PM
Have you heard of Raven's Progressive Matrices where the test taker completes a geometric design with the missing piece? This is what is used on most IQ tests and it can't possibly be culturally biased.
This is not the only type of question on an IQ test.
Quote from: Cavebear on March 17, 2018, 08:48:16 AM
I suggested that "developing country" and IQ were not connected. What do you consider incorrect about that? And my name isn't "Bud".
Why not? Don't you think countries with high mean IQs are more likely to be developed? Is it a coincidence that most African/South Asian countries are developing while most White/East Asian countries are developed?
Quote from: Alexmahone on March 15, 2018, 09:49:10 PM
What are those factors? I'm curious!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel
Quote from: Hydra009 on March 17, 2018, 11:31:20 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel
There is a lot of genetic variation in every population. The average intelligence varies, but the reason it does is because of the biased selection of the data points (arbitrary borders etc). Averages don't tell you much, and they mostly obscure. In manufacturing, the mean (average) and standard deviation are meaningful, if you are making screws or nails (something that is supposed to turn out uniform). Humans aren't manufactured, yet!
Some people like to think that their ethnicity or race makes them inferior or superior. This is psychological, but it isn't scientific.
All cultures aren't the same, but that isn't what the OP is about.
Quote from: Hydra009 on March 17, 2018, 11:31:20 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel
I do love the logic in 'Guns, Germs, and Steel'. I've re-read the book several times.
Quote from: Cavebear on March 18, 2018, 01:40:26 AM
I do love the logic in 'Guns, Germs, and Steel'. I've re-read the book several times.
Best anthropology book ever. But it took someone to get past Victorian prejudice to write it. Read Collapse?
Quote from: Baruch on March 18, 2018, 05:56:30 AM
Best anthropology book ever. But it took someone to get past Victorian prejudice to write it. Read Collapse?
Of course. And I will say it is just like you to call his book "post-Victorian" rather than scientifically modern.
But Diamond is speculating on the future there and that is in no way certain. Speculation is mostly fiction. Do you depend on fiction? His future speculation does not match his research of the past. He hit that problem that some researches do of ""having to write another book". :(
Quote from: Cavebear on March 20, 2018, 04:40:53 AM
Of course. And I will say it is just like you to call his book "post-Victorian" rather than scientifically modern.
But Diamond is speculating on the future there and that is in no way certain. Speculation is mostly fiction. Do you depend on fiction? His future speculation does not match his research of the past. He hit that problem that some researches do of ""having to write another book". :(
Yes, prophets aren't honored in their home towns. Collectively, the human animal is even less intelligent than the individual human, who isn't intelligent either. That is why the recent Uber-autonomous car never slowed down for the pedestrian and killed her. Ironically the first traffic fatality in Britain was a woman run over by a car .. but that car at least had an inexperienced driver. Autonomous vehicles and un-critical pedestrians ... the worst of both worlds.