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News & General Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Shiranu on March 02, 2018, 07:42:42 PM

Title: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Shiranu on March 02, 2018, 07:42:42 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv4nhgPV0Hc

And no, this is not an assault on men; it's actually a video addressing the sexism directed towards men by society and it's consequences.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Munch on March 02, 2018, 08:09:52 PM
Actually, seemed like it was a passive aggressive poke at masculinity on cutting down men on aspects that make men.. Men.

Having overly aggressive male figures slapping you around the head for not displaying masculine traits and not playing with army men is indeed toxic masculinity. However this seemed to just be outright claiming an assertive masculine behavior is a bad thing, which is bullshit, try going into the army with that more soft, passive tone, they put recruits though the ringer with strong, aggressive training to toughen them up.

Also claiming that feminism isn't an assault on mens right, got one image for you.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BZmZjM2E1ZDgtYTQwYy00ZjY5LWFlMDMtY2ZjOWE1NWRkYzVjXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMTQ1OTM1NQ@@._V1_UY268_CR2,0,182,268_AL_.jpg)

But maybe what you need right now is a nice glass of soy.

(https://www.ocado.com/productImages/230/23068011_2_640x640.jpg?identifier=5c8afb8ee28442fa73c1e278150b2c96)
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Shiranu on March 02, 2018, 08:25:52 PM
I'm sorry you feel that way.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Munch on March 02, 2018, 08:43:06 PM
Where's feeling come into it? I mean this seems a step up for you, since the video had a lot of to-and-fro on where she was going, but ultimately she didn't draw anything about the positive of assertive masculine behavior.

lets suppose I put up a video on toxic femininity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77acJiVu430

Now I can give examples of the positives of strong female characteristics, the kind of impact a figure like wonder woman has on people, she's assertive and feminine, and having strong female role models in culture helps people, not just women, but people in general.

The problem with the video you posted is it didn't give any examples showing where stronger, assertive masculine roles fits, instead just passing the concept off as being bad despite originally coming off as if she's supportive of men, yeah, just what she defines as men.

its just as well i like female characters in movies, comics, games and tv shows of any level of assertive behavior, because hating of one type of woman because she's to assertive would limit my character list.

The same should go for men, enjoying male characters of any level of assertive or passive behavior
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Draconic Aiur on March 02, 2018, 09:48:51 PM
Women have been putting down other women and calling them sluts for a long ass time.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 02, 2018, 11:27:34 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on March 02, 2018, 08:25:52 PM
I'm sorry you feel that way.

There is a such a thing as toxic masculinity.  Boys, girls, women ... and male coworkers suffer by it.  But it is the politically driven Feminism, the identity politics kind ... that is objectionable, for political reasons.  The idea that women don't ever misbehave is ... naive.  It would be misogynist to think that all such misbehavior is proof that women need to be more masculine.  Don't take butch dykes seriously, as politics.  As people, sure, if you are into that.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 02, 2018, 11:31:17 PM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on March 02, 2018, 09:48:51 PM
Women have been putting down other women and calling them sluts for a long ass time.

Yes, the matriarchy is so ... weak.  Actually it is quite powerful, but uses careful disguise.  Feminine wiles.  The idea that all men, even most men, are misogynists is ridiculous.  Same as the idea that all women, even most women, are misandrists.  Don't take the person who should be on Freud's couch, as typical, or as someone who should be an archetype for the rest of society.  Per Freud, that would mean most of us would need to be upper class Viennese Jewish women from 100 years ago.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Cavebear on March 03, 2018, 03:24:53 AM
Quote from: Baruch on March 02, 2018, 11:31:17 PM
Yes, the matriarchy is so ... weak.  Actually it is quite powerful, but uses careful disguise.  Feminine wiles.  The idea that all men, even most men, are misogynists is ridiculous.  Same as the idea that all women, even most women, are misandrists.  Don't take the person who should be on Freud's couch, as typical, or as someone who should be an archetype for the rest of society.  Per Freud, that would mean most of us would need to be upper class Viennese Jewish women from 100 years ago.

I put myself out of the game years ago.  Too much trouble.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Munch on March 03, 2018, 06:04:27 AM
Fact of the matter is, toxic behavior exists in any aspect of society. Toxic masculinity, toxic femininity, toxic parenting, toxic teaching, toxic government, toxic political bias, toxic social justice, it exists in all walks and just because someone adheres and follows an aspect of society doesn't mean what they follow can't have toxic elements in it, it does, its the nature of the humanity to have toxic people in it.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: pr126 on March 03, 2018, 06:55:06 AM
Down with alpha males!
Soyboys rule OK

https://youtu.be/az352YaZNM0
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 03, 2018, 08:44:33 AM
Quote from: Munch on March 03, 2018, 06:04:27 AM
Fact of the matter is, toxic behavior exists in any aspect of society. Toxic masculinity, toxic femininity, toxic parenting, toxic teaching, toxic government, toxic political bias, toxic social justice, it exists in all walks and just because someone adheres and follows an aspect of society doesn't mean what they follow can't have toxic elements in it, it does, its the nature of the humanity to have toxic people in it.

Correct, we are retard but don't need to go full retard.  And focusing too much on the negative, turns one to nihilism.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Shiranu on March 03, 2018, 09:54:00 AM
So the recurring argument is that women are toxic too... therefor, it's okay? It shouldn't be discussed?

Yes, there is "toxic femininity", and it's something feminists are against as well. But that is about as relevant as the price of tea in China.

QuoteHowever this seemed to just be outright claiming an assertive masculine behavior is a bad thing, which is bullshit...

When that "assertive masculine behaviour" is manifesting in the overwhelming majority of mass shooters being male, being raised to think that sex is something you are "owed" or expected to have or you are a failure (which leads to significant numbers of women harmed and killed by men who have been brainwashed into obsessing over getting into their pants) or when it's shaming men for not "looking like, talking like, walking like, etc." how a man should look, talk, or walk right and increases suicide rates... yes, that is "assertive masculine behaviour" being a bad thing.

When it leads to men being too ashamed to admit they are victims of domestic abuse, of being victims of sexual abuse, of having mental disorders like depression but being too ashamed to seek help for it because men don't get beat by their wives, don't get raped, don't have emotions, yes... that is "assertive masculine behaviour" being a bad thing.

Quote...try going into the army with that more soft, passive tone, they put recruits though the ringer with strong, aggressive training to toughen them up.

Okay? Not every man joins the army and is trained to be a killer, so that's not a type of toughening up that is particularly relevant to the majority of men.

Secondly, I would argue the training the military provides is not masculine by nature, because both contemporary and historically there have been women who have been more than capable soldiers. I know plenty of women in the armed forces, and I don't think of any of them, post boot camp, as being particularly masculine. Does that mean they are bad soldiers? I doubt it, I think it just means the military doesn't train people to be "men", it trains them to be "soldiers".
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 03, 2018, 10:00:49 AM
Aw ... but what is a man and what is a woman?  Are these not arbitrary designations, like all other vocabulary words?  Aren't some men feminine and other women are masculine?  If so, then the masculine behavior of a woman, or the feminine behavior of a man ... means we can't make assumptions based on outward appearances.  Toxic masculinity man be in either a man or a woman.

If people are against negative aspects of human behavior (easier to define than psychology) then good for them.  That is called being ethical or moral.  That is necessary, but not sufficient.  We should be for positive aspects of human behavior as well.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Shiranu on March 03, 2018, 11:03:44 AM
Toxic masculinity is specifically men vs men, so that means men who identify as men or that society identifies as men.

That statement does not mean that other genders cant hold those viewpoints, it merely means that this is a problem that exists between two men. Society as a whole certainly holds toxic masculine views towards men, but that is not what we are talking about.

It's why we don't look at sexism against women and say, "Well, women can be sexist towards themselves too!". Yes, yes they can. But that is not what we are talking about. It's like talking about violence in inner city African American communities and saying, "Rural white people have problems with corporations destroying their farming life style too!". By all means, they do and that's great to address it... but it should be addressed as it's own issue, and not as a way to silence someone else's problems.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Mermaid on March 03, 2018, 11:21:10 AM
Toxic masculinity does not infer that masculinity is toxic.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Munch on March 03, 2018, 11:23:44 AM
Quote from: Mermaid on March 03, 2018, 11:21:10 AM
Toxic masculinity does not infer that masculinity is toxic.

You're right, and calling a feminazi an aggressive bitch doesn't infer feminism is a bitch.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Mermaid on March 03, 2018, 11:38:01 AM
Quote from: Munch on March 03, 2018, 11:23:44 AM
You're right, and calling a feminazi an aggressive bitch doesn't infer feminism is a bitch.
What?
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: aitm on March 03, 2018, 01:45:11 PM
I simply couldn't get past 3 minutes of it and I jumped to around 6ish and....sorry I just can't watch vids that do not seem focused and to the point. I have the same problem with meetings. I want them direct, pointed and short. If you have a bunch of fluff involved that you think somehow sideways slips other point in , you lose me.

I am sure there are some great point in it. I like em bulleted.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: GSOgymrat on March 03, 2018, 03:31:57 PM
Quote from: Mermaid on March 03, 2018, 11:21:10 AM
Toxic masculinity does not infer that masculinity is toxic.

And homophobia isn't an actual phobia. I get annoyed when people take attitudes and behaviors and package them in a label that causes even more confusion. I think some writers do this on purpose to get an emotional reaction and generate buzz.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Mermaid on March 03, 2018, 03:38:48 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on March 03, 2018, 03:31:57 PM
And homophobia isn't an actual phobia. I get annoyed when people take attitudes and behaviors and package them in a label that causes even more confusion. I think some writers do this on purpose to get an emotional reaction and generate buzz.

Actually I think homophobia really is a fear in a lot of cases. A fear that homosexuals will infect you or something.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: GSOgymrat on March 03, 2018, 04:33:52 PM
Quote from: Mermaid on March 03, 2018, 03:38:48 PM
Actually I think homophobia really is a fear in a lot of cases. A fear that homosexuals will infect you or something.

This is exactly what I mean. Homophobia could be used to refer to pathological anxiety and avoidant behavior of homosexuals that causes the individual distress but most often isn't. If someone is bigotted against homosexuals they are often labeled homophobic even though this person may have no anxiety being around homosexuals and just regard sex between men as disgusting or consider feminine behavior by men unacceptable. The homophobic label was intended to pathologize these attitudes, even though there may be no actual pathology. The implication is that people who are homophobic are mentally ill, which isn't necessarily true and minimizes the needs of people who truly have mental health problems. "Toxic masculinity" similarly implies there something poisonous and unhealthy about attitudes and behaviors associated with "masculinity" (a contentious term)-- it is pathologizing. This doesn't mean I'm minimizing the issues people are referring to when discussing toxic masculinity or homophobia, I think they need addressing, but I don't like the pathologizing of social attitudes. Granted, discussing "harmful societal gender expectations" doesn't sound as sexy as discussing "toxic masculinity."
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Gilgamesh on March 03, 2018, 06:34:17 PM
Quote from: Mermaid on March 03, 2018, 11:21:10 AM
Toxic masculinity does not infer that masculinity is toxic.

Correct. It just refers to a type of masculinity that is toxic. It exists, of course, and so does toxic femininity. The female and male ego manifests differently. And when they are toxic, they look different, too.

I agree with basically everything shrianu has said in this thread.

Even so, there are better commentators on these issues than these corporate-owned shows with their cookie-cutter libfag pundits. They all talk and look the same; these drones you watch. Eyes slightly creased, risen brow, neurotic movement, matter-of-fact speech pattern. This bitch instantly had me recall that vox faggot with the same set-up.

(https://dstormer6em3i4km.onion.link/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/faggot-310x165.jpg)

Just drones out of a factory to serve the elite. How do you watch this absolute fucking garbage.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Shiranu on March 03, 2018, 08:49:41 PM
@Gilgamesh: Honestly, I feel the exact same way about the quality and character of the presenters in opposite videos that are posted here, so that's really no skin off of my back.

@GSO: To each their own. The English language in particular is really filled with "battle metaphors" and using negatives to describe something. There are certainly flaws to this system, but it's the system our language has evolved to use after hundreds and hundreds of years.

By all means use better terminology if you want to, and spend an extra four, six, ten, twenty plus words trying to describe what you mean, but at the end of the day it is much easier to just say "toxic masculinity" instead of, "Societal norms that are considered 'traditional' for men to adhere to and lead to destructive and harmful aggression and self-image to the men in said society, generally centered around the demand of a man to be dominant, sexually bountiful, holding feminine-traits to be inferior, self-reliant to an extreme and the suppression of any emotions that might show weakness". 

The example you used of "harmful societal gender expectations" is extremely vague, where as Toxic Masc. in two words conveys that entire definition... and honestly a whole boatload more.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Munch on March 03, 2018, 09:01:11 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on March 03, 2018, 08:49:41 PM
@Gilgamesh: Honestly, I feel the exact same way about the quality and character of the presenters in opposite videos that are posted here, so that's really no skin off of my back.

@GSO: To each their own. The English language in particular is really filled with "battle metaphors" and using negatives to describe something. There are certainly flaws to this system, but it's the system our language has evolved to use after hundreds and hundreds of years.

By all means use better terminology if you want to, and spend an extra four, six, ten, twenty plus words trying to describe what you mean, but at the end of the day it is much easier to just say "toxic masculinity" instead of, "Societal norms that are considered 'traditional' for men to adhere to and lead to destructive and harmful aggression and self-image to the men in said society, generally centered around the demand of a man to be dominant, sexually bountiful, holding feminine-traits to be inferior, self-reliant to an extreme and the suppression of any emotions that might show weakness". 

The example you used of "harmful societal gender expectations" is extremely vague, where as Toxic Masc. in two words conveys that entire definition... and honestly a whole boatload more.

you really do only have a black and white opinion on masculinity don't you? Its no wonder you don't adhere to the horseshoe theory either, you don't consider anything inbetween. All I'm seeing is you decrying masculinity taking aspects of what being masculine is, and only taking examples the negative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-JWqHlKpU8
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 03, 2018, 09:13:08 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on March 03, 2018, 03:31:57 PM
And homophobia isn't an actual phobia. I get annoyed when people take attitudes and behaviors and package them in a label that causes even more confusion. I think some writers do this on purpose to get an emotional reaction and generate buzz.

Phobias are of course, irrational.  Rationalists would say that none of them exist (just as they would claim that valid religious faith doesn't exist).  Psychology however laughs at rationalism.

As pointed out, not all people are actual phobic personalities, they may have other reasons for their attitude.  I can give a little evidence that I think applies ... I have known only one woman at work who was definitely anti-male, because she said so in public.  But she had been abused by the males in her family.  Post-trauma isn't exactly phobia either.  Rational fear ... even if misplaced, isn't completely wrong, just exaggerated.  A phobia would be an irrational fear.  So if you were a man, who was raped by other men in prison, your fear of men might not be a phobia, even after release.  Please consult an actual counselor for psychological problems.

Of course, I would be the last one here, to say we need to chuck out tradition, carte blanche.  I don't think men need to be more like Kurgan savages, but we need to be strong enough to deal with such savages.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Shiranu on March 03, 2018, 09:22:02 PM
Quote from: Munch on March 03, 2018, 09:01:11 PM
you really do only have a black and white opinion on masculinity don't you? Its no wonder you don't adhere to the horseshoe theory either, you don't consider anything inbetween. All I'm seeing is you decrying masculinity taking aspects of what being masculine is, and only taking examples the negative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-JWqHlKpU8

If I don't share the same definition of masculinity as you, I have a black and white view on masculinity.

I'm sorry people have you believing stuff like that.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Shiranu on March 03, 2018, 09:31:35 PM
I actually just thought of a word that is better than toxic masculinity though, and that is the Spanish word machismo... basically the definition of toxic masculinity, but rather through, as GSO said, a pathological lens... it is a term that is almost exclusively viewed through the lens of "manliness"... it is all about the exaggeration of certain masculine features that have useful purposes (protecting and providing for one's family) to the point that they become more harmful than beneficial.




So if everyone is happy with that, I am more than happy to start referring to it as machismo or machismo masculinity rather than toxic. In someways hypermasculine does seem almost applicable as well... but I don't think that hypermasculine necessarily carries a tone of "toxicity" and desire to enforce your ideas of what a man is on others like machismo does.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 03, 2018, 09:32:18 PM
Shiranu ... so why be black-white?  That seems intellectually weak to me.  As complete wet noodle relativity would also be.  Idealism should be more nuanced than puritanism.  Not black, white or medium grey, but rainbow.

Yes, perhaps "muy macho" is taking masculinity too far ... like going out into the street looking for a gang fight or a gang bitch to f***.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Munch on March 03, 2018, 09:32:33 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on March 03, 2018, 09:22:02 PM
If I don't share the same definition of masculinity as you, I have a black and white view on masculinity.

I'm sorry people have you believing stuff like that.

yeah yeah you think this came from others telling me it instead of learning it myself. Sorry but I wasn't indoctrinated at university by professors.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Shiranu on March 03, 2018, 09:34:47 PM
QuoteShiranu ... so why be black-white?

I don't think any one is proposing we should be.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Munch on March 03, 2018, 09:35:54 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on March 03, 2018, 09:31:35 PM
I actually just thought of a word that is better than toxic masculinity though, and that is the Spanish word machismo... basically the definition of toxic masculinity, but rather through, as GSO said, a pathological lens... it is a term that is almost exclusively viewed through the lens of "manliness"... it is all about the exaggeration of certain masculine features that have useful purposes (protecting and providing for one's family) to the point that they become more harmful than beneficial.

So if everyone is happy with that, I am more than happy to start referring to it as machismo or machismo masculinity rather than toxic.

Call it whatever you want. Fact that your looking for something else to call it doesn't change the fact you can only find the negative connotations in masculine behavior.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 03, 2018, 09:36:09 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on March 03, 2018, 09:34:47 PM
I don't think any one is proposing we should be.

But you just claimed it, rhetorically.  Maybe more words on your part would help.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: PickelledEggs on March 03, 2018, 09:37:55 PM
I think both should be discussed. And I agree there are some very insecure males and toxic masculinity in this world, but I also find it interesting that the main people that talk about it never want to even acknowledge toxic femininity... Toxic feminism... etc

Women are DISGUSTING towards each other. In fact, a few of my female friends, at least the ones that are vocal about it say on a regular basis that they have never been so degraded as when talked down to by another women.... that they're cutthroat and ruthless with their head games. This of course isn't me that is saying it, but women saying this about other women.

Now, I understand that the topic is toxic masculinity, but yeah. I get it. I agree. Yada yada yada. Not much to say other than I find it interesting that women (understandably) want nothing to do when men have something to say about women, but apparently they have a huge say in when it comes down to issues about men. Power comes in many forms, and when it comes down to it, women have the power in these spheres.

While I understand the reasoning why women don't want men to speak about issues concerning them, I disagree. I think men AND women should be able to speak and discuss between themselves about issues of the other sex and vice-versa, but unfortunately, that isn't happening currently.... and possibly any time soon.
Now, why am I saying this seemingly off-topic stuff? Because as much as I agree with the woman in the video about how sexism is hurting men as well. A huge percentage of men will discard the points to be made because they are being made by a woman.... and they are going to discard it BECAUSE they have been denied a voice in so many things. Sad, really. Discussions should be had, but as the battle of the sexes exponentially becomes more and more political and almost religious, discussions will be had less and less. Progress will slow more and more. Equality will never happen and if anything in regards to change, will just flip upside down, with women oppress everything like feminists insist men actively still do today. That is not equality, that is a hijacking.

And then the argument comes up from feminists "oh so you don't like the idea of being oppressed? well we've been oppressed for years!" Yeah well so what? that isn't an excuse to start oppressing yourself. And I don't oppress anyone. Most men don't. But if you ask your average feminist, they would argue the opposite, even if it means according to them that not actively giving up your "privilege as a male" is actively oppressing, which I have been told before.


So tl;dr, -1 yes toxic masculinity is a problem. -2 sexism hurts men too. And -3 This video isnt going to do shit because "why would anyone listen to people that insist they are unqualified to speak on so many issues?"
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Gilgamesh on March 03, 2018, 09:42:50 PM
Quote from: Munch on March 03, 2018, 09:35:54 PM
Call it whatever you want. Fact that your looking for something else to call it doesn't change the fact you can only find the negative connotations in masculine behavior.

On the first page he agreed that toxic femininity exists.

Men and women are different. Both identities 'can' be toxic, and when they are it also looks different, but neither are inherently toxic.

Pretty sure you both believe the preceding to be true, so-??
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Shiranu on March 03, 2018, 09:45:20 PM
Quote from: Munch on March 03, 2018, 09:35:54 PM
Call it whatever you want. Fact that your looking for something else to call it doesn't change the fact you can only find the negative connotations in masculine behavior.

I'm legitimately perplexed why you think that because I acknowledge masculinity can be problematic, I therefore am incapable of having positive views of men.

I believe toxic feminism and femininity exists. That doesn't mean I don't have positive views of feminism and femininity.

Again, I am honestly confused; are you obsessing over this and me to change the subject, or do you legitimately believe that having a negative opinion on one thing something does wrong makes you incapable of having a positive opinion about the things it does right?

I want to believe it's innocent, but this is not the first time you have obsessed over me to either avoid the topic or admit you were wrong.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 03, 2018, 09:48:14 PM
Yes, women on women is an interesting spectator sport, but definitely a blood sport! ;-)
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Munch on March 03, 2018, 10:00:18 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on March 03, 2018, 09:45:20 PM
I'm legitimately perplexed why you think that because I acknowledge masculinity can be problematic, I therefore am incapable of having positive views of men.

I believe toxic feminism and femininity exists. That doesn't mean I don't have positive views of feminism and femininity.

Again, I am honestly confused; are you obsessing over this and me to change the subject, or do you legitimately believe that having a negative opinion on one thing something does wrong makes you incapable of having a positive opinion about the things it does right?

I want to believe it's innocent, but this is not the first time you have obsessed over me to either avoid the topic or admit you were wrong.

I'm going to set you a challenge, since it's 3am here and I'm going to bed. I want you to link me an example of positive masculinity in western society, don't have to write anything out just post a link to something showing positive traditional masculinity behaviour, just to see what you find. I'll have a look in the morning.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 03, 2018, 10:07:20 PM
Life is difficult ... either we have complexes over our father (or lack thereof) or complexes over our mother (or lack thereof).
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Shiranu on March 03, 2018, 10:44:11 PM
Quote from: Munch on March 03, 2018, 10:00:18 PM
I'm going to set you a challenge, since it's 3am here and I'm going to bed. I want you to link me an example of positive masculinity in western society, don't have to write anything out just post a link to something showing positive traditional masculinity behaviour, just to see what you find. I'll have a look in the morning.

Desire to improve the community, such as organizations like Ceasefire work towards, that go into districts with extreme gang violence and try to negotiate peaceful resolutions to conflicts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nlpBvRDRpw

Likewise doing things to help the community, or help people, without need to brag about it or advertise it, but rather just doing what you can and letting that be reward enough, such as Mike Illitch who paid Rosa Parks' rent for years without ever mentioning it.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/02/15/us/mike-ilitch-rosa-parks-trnd/index.html

Being willing to stand-up to injustice at risk to yourself rather than silently watching it happen, or even worse breaking down into peer pressure and joining in... but also to have the strength to not resort to violence in order to get your ways.

(https://www.biography.com/.image/t_share/MTE5NTU2MzE2MjgwNDg5NDgz/martin-luther-king-jr-9365086-2-402.jpg)

But so much more involves something that we don't get trophies, or articles, or awards for... they are just how we treat others. Do we teach our children how to be well behaved and respectful? Do we see someone needing help and offer? Do we respect our elders and listen to them when they have something valuable to teach us? Do we treat our wives, girlfriends, husbands, boyfriends with dignity? Do we provide for our families rather than deplete their resources?

These things don't have links, but they are frankly a thousand times more important than any big act a man can do; one man treating his wife or mother with respect is worth a hundred thousand men who's best trait is they can lift a heavy weight or kick that ball real good, or a father teaching his children how to be respectful and kind, self sufficient, is worth more than any amount of men who don't.

We don't receive articles for these things, and that's fine... we should behave like men because we are men, not because we want everyone to think we are.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 04, 2018, 12:31:45 AM
"we should behave like men because we are men" ... and we are not women, let the women do femininity, they do it better than us ;-)

However ... MLK was better as a martyr than as a living saint.  Just saying ...
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: pr126 on March 04, 2018, 06:17:00 AM
 Toxic masculinity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity)

From Wikipedia:
QuoteThe concept of toxic masculinity is used in psychology to describe certain traditional male norms of behavior in the United States and Europe that are associated with harm to society and to men themselves. Such "toxic" masculine norms include the traits of dominance, devaluation of women, extreme self-reliance, and the suppression of emotions.

Interesting that this is a problem in the USA and Europe. I suspect this refers to white men only?

Apparently, this does not exist anywhere else in the world.

One wonders why [some] women prefer  criminals  (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3557688/Women-really-love-bad-boys-Females-likely-lust-people-criminal-records-males-study-finds.html) and gang members over more docile males.
Is it the thrill, or are they more likely to be protected by "bad boys"?

Why is Europe importing millions of toxic masculinity if it is harmful?
Raping of women and children is becoming a norm in Europe. Nobody wants to hear that.   



Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 04, 2018, 07:06:00 AM
Europe has repeatedly been invaded by bad boys ... Neanderthals, Cro-Magnons (who are a mix of Neanderthal and modern men), used goat sellers (who brought in agriculture from the ME), Kurgans (who had hot wheels ... nobody had wheels before they arrived).  The Persians, Huns, Arabs, Mongols and Turks all tried and failed.  Europe already had wheels, so the European girls were harder to impress.  Refugees were an internal displacement problem ... see Germans, Vikings and Magyars.  Jewish refugees and Gypsies were a small part of the migration problem ... but go ahead, blame everything on us!
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Munch on March 04, 2018, 09:33:27 AM
I couldn't watch the video you uploaded Shiranu, its blocked outside of the U.S

But the example leads as it should be, that a strong masculine role model is someone who is strong, determined, has the courage to not back down from something, able to lead by example. Those traits exist, not in everyone perhaps, but the ones that have it stand out.
Those however are traits that can become toxic based on other aspects of the individual, things that poison the well.

This example today in the Metro speaks for itself as an example of someone with toxic masculine traits:

http://metro.co.uk/2018/03/02/anthony-joshua-blasted-misogynistic-comments-niece-7357159/
Quote
(https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/894364788.jpg?w=748&h=490&crop=1)

Anthony Joshua has been branded as ‘misogynistic’  after he admitted to treating his son Joseph differently from his niece.   The backlash came after a year-old interview resurfaced online where the world heavyweight champion said he is not strict with his son because of his gender. In the March 2017 GQ interview, the 28-year-old said that he wants his son to ‘spread his wings’ but that he is ‘stricter’ with his niece.

‘I don’t think I’m that strict with Joseph, I don’t know why,’ he said.’But with my niece I’m strict. I think it is because she is older, but also he’s a boy â€" he’s going to be a man’s man, he’ll want to spread his wings, be a Jack-the-lad, build his character.’ He added: ‘But I am sure there are things I will be strict about. But with my niece, there is none of that Jack-the-lad nonsense for her!’ ‘My view is you have to be a good woman, respectful, one day you will be someone’s wife, you have to learn family morals… what it is to be a good woman.’ His comments did not go down well with fans on Twitter who slammed the boxer for his viewpoint.

AJ also said that he works hard to inspire his son. ‘He needs to look at me like I am a superhero, and that he can come to me for whatever he needs. That’s one of the reasons I am looking to improve myself, be smarter, so that I can help him on his path.

This here is an example of a toxic male, having a predetermined idea of how his son will be and how he needs to mold his niece into being a certain way too.

In contrast, I came across this article back a few years ago.

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=132189&page=1
QuoteHeroic Firefighter's Story

(https://www.firehero.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/stackpole_timothy.jpg)

After 21 years of fighting some of New York's toughest fires, including a 1998 blaze that almost killed him, firefighter Timothy Stackpole proudly served his first day as captain on Sept. 10.

The next day, he was one of the hundreds of firemen who answered the call after the World Trade Center was struck by two airliners â€" and one of the 343 who was killed when the twin towers collapsed.

Stackpole, who was a legend in the Fire Department after surviving the 1998 fire, was dedicated to his job to the end.

"The greatest high you can get in life is by helping somebody," he said in a public service announcement that was taped before his death. He taped the message for the hospital that helped him recover from the terrible burns he suffered in the 1998 fire.

Two Passions: Family and Fire

Stackpole grew up in the Brooklyn neighborhood of Marine Park, the same area where he would eventually raise his own five kids.

His family was his top priority, said his wife Tara. "That was like a million dollars to him. He just enjoyed being with the kids every day," she said.

Stackpole was also passionate about his job. While fighting a four-alarm fire at a Brooklyn rowhouse in the summer of 1998, he heard that a woman was trapped inside. Without hesitation, he and two colleagues did what firemen do: they ran into the flames to save someone.

While the three firefighters were inside, the floor collapsed without warning.

"My whole body was trapped up to my neck," Stackpole says in the PSA. "The fire was still roaring all around us … I remember the excruciating pain in my ankles, burned to the bone. And I remember just praying to God: Just let me die bravely."

Stackpole and his colleagues, Lt. James Blackmore and Capt. Scott LaPiedra, were trapped in the fire for almost a half-hour.

"I had this tremendous sadness that I wasn't going to see my children again, growing up, walking my daughter down the aisle," he says.

Thirty-four of his colleagues put their own lives at risk to save the three men. They got them out, but Blackmore died at the scene. Stackpole and LaPiedra were rushed into ambulances with terrible burns.

Firefighter Michael Brady rode with Stackpole. "In that moment, he was still Timmy," Brady recalled. "He was still comforting the EMT, who were shocked with what was going on, and cheering them on: 'Thank you brother. Thank you for helping me.' His zeal could never be squashed."

The Will to Walk

Stackpole was taken to the New York Weill Cornell Burn Center. With burns over 30 percent of his body, he was near death for many days. At best, his wife thought he would never walk again.

"The pain he suffered was incredible," she said. When doctors attempted to get Stackpole back on his feet, he fainted from the pain.

After 66 days, Stackpole limped out of the hospital to a hero's welcome, returning to work soon afterward. Though he could have retired from the department and gotten a pension, Stackpole chose not to.

"It was his life, his calling," said his wife. "He couldn't not do it. This is what he felt he was supposed to do in his life."

His Last Day at Work

Tara Stackpole remembers Sept. 11 beginning as a normal day. "It was a normal routine Tuesday. He kissed us goodbye and told me he loved me," she said.

When she heard about the attack on the World Trade Center, she immediately raced from her mother's house to pick up her children.

"I stopped at a light and I realized I was right in front of the building he was injured in in 1998, and I just had an awful feeling he wasn't coming home that night," she remembers. "It's a sign. I mean how odd could it be that I ended up there? It was almost like a reminder to me that I had had those three years."

The City Mourns

It turned out that Timmy Stackpole was among the first to get to Ground Zero. He led a team that ran into 2 World Trade Center to rescue victims after it was struck. He and the others all perished when the tower collapsed.

Recovery workers found his body a week later.

"They told me they draped a flag and when they turned to walk out, all the people at the site formed an honor guard and saluted. It was beautiful," said Tara. "They came straight from the site to tell me they found him and brought him home."

Ten thousand people attended Stackpole's funeral, including Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, who called him "one of the most exceptional human beings I've ever met."

At the station house on Sheffield Avenue, they painted Stackpole's name on the front of the ladder truck â€" along with his nickname, "Jobs," because he loved what he did so much.

"He was the pride of Sheffield Ave.," said Lt. Kevin Schamberger of Ladder Company 103. "He was. He always will be. He made us rise to the occasion."


now that to me is an example of true masculine role model, with the best traits of being a man, strong willed, determined, never giving up, standing his ground.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Mike Cl on March 04, 2018, 10:14:29 AM
When the word 'toxic' is attached to any idea or label it automatically makes that idea or label, well, toxic--bad.  Any idea or label can be expressed in a toxic manner.  As a Yankee fan, I can act like a toxic Yankee fan and be totally obnoxious.  To say masculinity or femininity is good or bad is to be too simplistic.  Both are good and necessary for a healthy society--taken to the extreme, not so.   
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: pr126 on March 04, 2018, 10:18:22 AM
I think that the term "toxic masculinity" was created by neo Marxist for the feminist.
Another bone to chew on.

Note that this does not apply to Middle Eastern, Asian, African, Central/South American etc. men.
It is restricted to American or European men.
Certainly, it is not an expression I would expect to hear in Rio, Riad, Moskwa, Jo'burg or Tabriz.

That is why the Marxist influence is suspect.

Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 04, 2018, 11:26:34 AM
But Marxism, like poverty, isn't going anywhere.  Once radicalism was let out of the bottle in Paris in 1789 ... it can't be put back.

What I notice most in the US, is that the current neo-marxism most similar to the Red Guard Cultural Revolution in China, in the 1960s.  It is youth oriented, anti-authoritarian (anarchist) and politically correct.  Here is a clear example of toxic masculinity (of political correctness).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCA6ME81RLQ

I await the Little Red Book of Chairman Obama or Hillary.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: pr126 on March 04, 2018, 12:04:41 PM
Talking about the personality cult, I saw that Obama did have that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHsAO3-crcs

No doubt, HRC would have had that too.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0MdF_Glhcjk/hqdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: PickelledEggs on March 04, 2018, 01:51:09 PM
Quote from: pr126 on March 04, 2018, 12:04:41 PM
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0MdF_Glhcjk/hqdefault.jpg)
This is what I imagine is a younger picture of you. And yes, I mean literally. I'm not even joking.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Mermaid on March 04, 2018, 01:59:54 PM
Haha! Me too.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Shiranu on March 04, 2018, 02:32:17 PM
On a more positive note, three men who (purely from the video, I don't know how they behave off camera) seem like three very good examples of how men should be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lavllxWY7QM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lavllxWY7QM)


This actually reminded me of something I noticed last night... it was very hard to find good representations of men, because youtube and google are absolutely flooded with this pseudo-manliness that snake-oil peddlers try to get men to buy. It's all a big, broken system... the system beats you over the head with how inferiour you are and then says only they know the solution... for just $9.99 a month you can be as mainly as them!


At it's core, I think it probably has much less to do with gender roles and far more to do with people who want to make money are willing to exploit any and everything to do so. Just today a footballer I respect died in his sleep before a match... and within minutes, his card on FIFA was bought up and being sold for a 10-20 time markup.

Nothing is sacred to people anymore, and that is both a shame and a major stumbling block we as a society need to recognize. If it can turn you a buck, then who cares how it effects anyone else?
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: PickelledEggs on March 04, 2018, 04:14:39 PM
Quote from: Mermaid on March 04, 2018, 01:59:54 PM
Haha! Me too.
tmw the truth is actually hilarious lmfaooo
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: PickelledEggs on March 04, 2018, 04:16:53 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on March 04, 2018, 02:32:17 PM
On a more positive note, three men who (purely from the video, I don't know how they behave off camera) seem like three very good examples of how men should be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lavllxWY7QM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lavllxWY7QM)


This actually reminded me of something I noticed last night... it was very hard to find good representations of men, because youtube and google are absolutely flooded with this pseudo-manliness that snake-oil peddlers try to get men to buy. It's all a big, broken system... the system beats you over the head with how inferiour you are and then says only they know the solution... for just $9.99 a month you can be as mainly as them!


At it's core, I think it probably has much less to do with gender roles and far more to do with people who want to make money are willing to exploit any and everything to do so. Just today a footballer I respect died in his sleep before a match... and within minutes, his card on FIFA was bought up and being sold for a 10-20 time markup.

Nothing is sacred to people anymore, and that is both a shame and a major stumbling block we as a society need to recognize. If it can turn you a buck, then who cares how it effects anyone else?
their hands make those teacups look like thimbles..... :O
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: PickelledEggs on March 04, 2018, 05:06:12 PM
I think that video of the 3 guys demonstrates that everyone has a complex set of things that make up their backstory, what is going on in their head.

Idk if this is an example of "how [ x type of person] should act, but it is definitely something that allows you to connect with them, because they are being open about themselves and revealing what is going on.

I personally live like that from my day to day life. I am honest and open. My one friend told me that she knows exactly how I am feeling from the moment I walk in to the room. That if I'm feeling upset or depressed, that it's clear, if I'm happy, it's clear. Another friend of mine introduced me to some people at an art show and after saying "This is my friend Steve, and he knows exactly who he is more than anyone else" (implying that I am confidently.... me. I'm open about what is going on in my life and what my intentions and aspirations are etc) It's because i don't hide behind a facade and I say what is on my mind. If I like you, I'll tell you. If I don't like you, I'll tell you. Things like that.

If you are implying that people should be open and honest in their day to day life, which is what i think you were implying, then I agree. But it's not just men that need to do that more. Women also. Men just get shamed for it more (by men and women both) and therefore "manly men" do it less.

It's hard to be open about your emotions though, especially for most people, less so for others though. And again, I'm talking about men and women. Think about all the insecurities that people bottle up inside someone. After a while, they pop. Like a balloon. There is little to no support for men. Women complain about "aesthetic standards that the patriarchy imposes on them" but lets be real here. No one is forcing them to put makeup on. They do it because it's culturally acceptable to do so and it gives them an advantage when they can do it well, compared to people that cant, or don't use makeup at all.
On the other hand, men don't seek mental health or talk about their feelings because they are actively shunned by the society around them (a good percentage of the time), their families, their friends, etc. And then they wonder why men are so violent.... Men are violent because they aren't taught more effective and useful tools to communicate their troubles and overcome them. When the only tool you have in your bag is bottle up until you're in fight or flight mode, what do people think is going to happen?

One of the biggest examples of this is the difference between my father and I, who I luckily haven't spoken to in a full year.... even didn't go to a Christmas party with my family because he was going to be there, but it was worth it. My father, in contrast to me had zero communication skills in terms of his feelings. This can of course be attributed to him being a narcissist, but the outcome is the same, nonetheless. He resulted in physical intimidation countless times. He didn't know what else to do. Where in contrast, because of how I was brought up (thank you mom) I am able to express myself. My emotions, what is going on with me, what i have a problem with, how to fix it, etc. If I didn't have those skills, I'd probably be very violent and abusive. In fact, I know i would be, because before I learned these skills, and before I identified where a lot of my bad traits came from (they came from my dad, btw), when I was very young, I had severe anger issues.... to the point that I was incorrectly diagnosed as bi-polar. I wasn't bipolar, I wasn't given any tools. I didn't know what to do, so when I got upset, it swiftly turned into anger, then rage. There were many holes in my wall in my basement bedroom from me punching through the drywall. I once broke a door from continuously slamming it. I was lucky to have such a caring mother, because she taught me so many important and caring skills. Eventually I learned how to problem solve issues, so they don't escalate to that point of violent rage, and now even if I get very angry, I have more useful tools than violence that I can turn to and prefer to turn to.

Sadly though, this isn't the case for many, many men and boys. One change to my story would mean I wouldn't be an artist, I wouldn't be able to express myself with words. I would quickly turn to violence. That alternate plot is the exact story for a huge percentage of men. In fact we have prison systems full of men with that exact plot-line.

All of us here are lucky. We have the communication skills we need to not need to result to violence. For most of us, im assuming, but for me at least, there isn't even a reason to result to violence unless you are in direct physical danger and you need to defend yourself. But we need to have compassion (different from acceptance) for the men that do not have it this way. For the men that do not have the skillsets we have to talk it out and only have the very crude coping skill of violence.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 04, 2018, 07:37:42 PM
Human variety is all fine and good, but what if it doesn't match the conformism of the 60s Leftists (and their children today).  You can be a variant, as long as you are all the same, as the commissar says so.   I am not saying, anyone here is like that, I am speaking to a type ... that is out there.  I suppose people here would just say that is a straw man, and that pr126 is tilting at windmills.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Munch on March 04, 2018, 08:21:15 PM
The world and societies are complex, and while striving for an ideal world is well and good, I doubt theres ever going to be a stage in humanities history where cultural and societal aspects have a unified following of how one needs to act to progress.

You could be lucky in life and be born into a good neighborhood with good parents in a place thats developed and calm, and you get to have education and chance given to you. But then again you might be born into a bad environment, like born in a city with gang violence around, unsafe to even go out, a survival of the fittest mentality anywhere you go, that forces you to develop walls, to shut out softer emotions and just toughen up just to survive before someone else stronger, more aggressive then you comes along and snuffs you out.

I never had any strong masculine role models in my family to look up to. I suppose you could say my grandfather was the most I had, since he fought in the second world war, but I was only a child when he passed away, and only saw him like a couple times a year. He was also someone who didn't open up about anything deep, simply played with me and my brother, I loved him, but I feel my respect for him years on came from stories my mother told me more then what I got to do with him when he was here. My father, think I said enough about him, he was a drunk, useless and shut off from even doing anything with us except to hurl verbal abuse. My brother was never really there for me and never really looked out for me. I was pretty much raised by my mother.

Despite that though, it didn't create this negative vibe in me about men, or masculine behavior, I was never boyish myself when young but things like movies, games, comics, gave me examples of characters and stars I enjoyed and was drawn to, Batman, superman, the x-men, bruce willis, schwarzenegger, Stallone, Wesley Snipes, for me it helped give me a positive outlook on strong male role models, idealistic, but enough to make me understand no, not all men are like my drunk ass father or ineffectual brother.

I like men, infact I love a lot of men out there, and anyone claiming masculine behavior is some negative thing based on that alone, it isn't that which makes it bad, its other things thrown in that ruin the best aspect of being a man. Just sad those aspects exist, be it religious or political indoctrination, upbringing and environment, or someone psychological buried underneath, those are the things that ruin any positive social construct, and that goes for things like feminism, liberalism, conservatism, and even religious belief itself.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 04, 2018, 08:57:50 PM
I combined what I positives knew about my father, and other male members of my family.  In addition there are the historical materials and biographies of famous people (who have some positives).  The negatives told me what not to do or be like.  And you can even do this, to a degree, with fictional characters who have admirable characteristics.  Of course the latter is on a slippery slope of solipcism.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: PickelledEggs on March 04, 2018, 10:21:43 PM
Something I HATE about this sudden rush to "end toxic masculinity" is that the movement to do so is literally not even doing anything.

They just demonize men for being toxic and basically just say "stop being bad". They don't address the reasons that cause it. They just want to seem like they have a moral highground. If you want to fix toxic masculinity, you need to address the toxic environment that breeds it. But there is a rhetoric of just simply "toxic masculinity is bad" "men are toxic" "you don't see women shooting up schools do you? that is because of toxic masculinity" that is rampant...,. and these things do ab-so-lute-ly NOTHING other than give people that pander to it a feeling of moral high ground. All it is, is pandering and it pretty much none of it, for the most part is actually actively helping. In fact, most of the pandering is making it even worse. It's basically just like screaming at a kid for doing something wrong, without explaining what they did wrong or how to not make the mistake again.  It's stupid and frustrating. Because violent men are a problem. Its a fact that more men are on average more violent than women. No one is denying that, at least no one that isn't detached from reality
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 04, 2018, 10:51:45 PM
Virtue signalling is for political purposes.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Cavebear on March 05, 2018, 12:11:30 AM
Quote from: Mermaid on March 03, 2018, 11:21:10 AM
Toxic masculinity does not infer that masculinity is toxic.

Neither masculinity nor femininity are toxic.  We need both to continue our species.  But either can be drawn to excess as they are in many other animals not as able to think as we can.  So we try to learn to adjust ourselves socially to make things more equal. 

Even in intelligent human history, it has been a painfully slow process.  I doubt I will live to see equality myself, there is a basic imbalance in sex and reproduction.  But the more we try, the better we will get.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on March 05, 2018, 12:30:07 AM
Saw the title of this thread, and before I even clicked I knew that the first response would be someone revving up the anti-feminist circle jerk. *sigh* Never change, AF.com.

I'm just going to copy and paste from Urban Dictionary real quick before giving me $0.02.

QuoteA social science term that describes narrow repressive type of ideas about the male gender role, that defines masculinity as exaggerated masculine traits like being violent, unemotional, sexually aggressive, and so forth. Also suggests that men who act too emotional or maybe aren’t violent enough or don’t do all of the things that “real men” do, can get their “man card” taken away.

Many people confuse the difference between Masculinity and toxic Masculinity. However, one can be masculine without having toxic Masculinity.

Some beliefs of toxic masculinity is that:

-interactions between men and women always has to be competitive and not cooperative.

-men can never truly understand women and that men and women can never just be friends.

-That REAL men need to be strong and that showing emotion is a sign of weakness... unless it’s anger, that is considered okay.

-The idea that men can never be victims of abuse and talking about it is shameful.

-The idea that REAL men always want sex and are ready for it at any time.

-The idea that violence is the answer to everything and that REAL men solve their problems through violence.

-The idea that men could never be single parents and that men shouldn’t be very interactive in their children’s learning and development and that men should always be the dominant one in the relationship or else he’s a “Cuck.”

-The idea that any interest in a range of things that are strictly considered feminine would be an emasculation of a guy.
Think of things that are traditionally thought of as "male virtues." Toxic masculinity is a subversion of those male virtues that ultimately harms men in some way. In other words, if we assume that masculinity is a good thing, then toxic masculinity is when too much of a good thing causes it to become harmful. That's the simplest way I can think of to explain it without over-simplifying it too much.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Shiranu on March 05, 2018, 12:42:39 AM
QuoteSomething I HATE about this sudden rush to "end toxic masculinity" is that the movement to do so is literally not even doing anything.

So outside of trying to address the issue and starting dialog over it, what do you propose "the left" do to fix the problem of machismo culture? For example, this thread has been overwhelmingly trying to point out why it's bad and explaining why it's bad, and to Munch's credit I feel he has focused more on trying to bring attention to positive aspects of masculinity rather than just oppose it for the sake of opposing it... but even then, there were multiple times where it felt like I was having to have an honest dialog and it just hitting a brick wall.

The problem is I feel that Munch's reaction is relatively calm and civil compared to people further down what ever spectrum that is, and even with him it felt less like a debate and more like a series of...

A. This is my position.
B. Well, this is my position.
A. Okay, well this is my position.
B. Fine, but this is my position.

When even two people who are closer ideologically cannot have a discussion on a subject because it becomes more about "left vs right" rather than "opinion vs opinion", then how can we expect people further left than me to want to engage in debate, or expect people further "right" to engage in a debate instead of a shit-throwing contest?


The only option then is for people on the left to enforce fixes on "toxic masculinity" regardless of what the right wants, and that seems like even more of a losing proposition. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. And that is true for far more than just machismo.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Cavebear on March 05, 2018, 12:56:39 AM
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on March 05, 2018, 12:30:07 AM
Saw the title of this thread, and before I even clicked I knew that the first response would be someone revving up the anti-feminist circle jerk. *sigh* Never change, AF.com.

I'm just going to copy and paste from Urban Dictionary real quick before giving me $0.02.
Think of things that are traditionally thought of as "male virtues." Toxic masculinity is a subversion of those male virtues that ultimately harms men in some way. In other words, if we assume that masculinity is a good thing, then toxic masculinity is when too much of a good thing causes it to become harmful. That's the simplest way I can think of to explain it without over-simplifying it too much.

I have met many men who were "toxic".  They ranged from athletes to office workers to laborers to husbands I met.  What they have in common is a profound dismissal of women as existing for any purpose of than sex and domestic service.  I argued with them to no avail.  They are unchangeable in attitude.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: PickelledEggs on March 05, 2018, 01:25:31 AM
The thing is. Fuck urban dictionary. We know what toxic masculinity is. address the problem. Toxic masculinity is a problem, but its a result of multiple different things that need to be tackled. Copy/pasting what toxic masculinity is trivial and irritating and it doesn't do jack shit other than cause people to not want to listen to you.

You think people don't see a pattern with males being violent. Everyone sees that. no one denies it. spamming terminology at people isn't helping anything. No one is going to care about what super cool word you have. We want results and we want proposed action. This isn't an anti feminist rant. This is a "please address the issues that are causing a pattern in men to be violent" rant. And many of those things I brought up in my last couple posts.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: PickelledEggs on March 05, 2018, 01:37:39 AM
Quote from: Shiranu on March 05, 2018, 12:42:39 AM
So outside of trying to address the issue and starting dialog over it, what do you propose "the left" do to fix the problem of machismo culture? For example, this thread has been overwhelmingly trying to point out why it's bad and explaining why it's bad, and to Munch's credit I feel he has focused more on trying to bring attention to positive aspects of masculinity rather than just oppose it for the sake of opposing it... but even then, there were multiple times where it felt like I was having to have an honest dialog and it just hitting a brick wall.

The problem is I feel that Munch's reaction is relatively calm and civil compared to people further down what ever spectrum that is, and even with him it felt less like a debate and more like a series of...

A. This is my position.
B. Well, this is my position.
A. Okay, well this is my position.
B. Fine, but this is my position.

When even two people who are closer ideologically cannot have a discussion on a subject because it becomes more about "left vs right" rather than "opinion vs opinion", then how can we expect people further left than me to want to engage in debate, or expect people further "right" to engage in a debate instead of a shit-throwing contest?


The only option then is for people on the left to enforce fixes on "toxic masculinity" regardless of what the right wants, and that seems like even more of a losing proposition. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. And that is true for far more than just machismo.
One thing that is paramount that we need to start doing is stop buying in to identity politics. Stop feeding that cancer of a machine.

"I identify as a manly man. I don't need help. I don't feel emotional pain" Not just that one, but all of them.... but since the topic of this thread is toxic masculinity, that is the example I will give for that point.

Another is we need to help parents be better parents. How we do that, I haven't thought of that too much, so I don't have a clear answer, but it could be something as simple as making sure parents have the knowledge of how to discipline their kids, without physically intimidating them, with creating a base layer of respect for people around them and most of all compassion for others. This one needs to be workshopped a bit to make it a bit more refined, but i do think there are plenty of unfit parents that cause this circle of shitty kids that turn in to shitty adults. For instance, I had a kid last summer, while I was teaching summer art camp pin another boy against the wall with his arm forced up in to his neck. He has shitty absent parents, and it's causing the kid to become shitty because he isn't learning proper interaction skill sets. This will cause him to do horrible in school and also affect how he matures in to an adult. He will be the exact embodiment of the problem we are talking about in this thread, and it comes down to his parents not giving a shit/ not knowing how to be parents.

These are but two ideas, I think I have more, but I also have just taken sleeping pills because I have to wake up in the morning to instruct a private student.


Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: PickelledEggs on March 05, 2018, 01:42:43 AM
And yes, it is just "this is my position" with the recent "end toxic masculinity" stuff. That is why I was sure to include that we need to address the points that I mentioned, plus more that I may have left out.

Because most of what it is, is just "THIS IS WHAT MEN DO", not what is causing it. not how to fix what is causing it. not anything productive.... just basically shoving men's noses in shit like they're dogs. Even the men that you wouldn't identify as a "toxic male" are grouped in to it a lot of the time. This causes resistance. If you say "you are my enemy" enough times, they will eventually become your enemy, whether they were on your side or not to begin with
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Cavebear on March 05, 2018, 02:35:19 AM
Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 05, 2018, 01:42:43 AM
And yes, it is just "this is my position" with the recent "end toxic masculinity" stuff. That is why I was sure to include that we need to address the points that I mentioned, plus more that I may have left out.

Because most of what it is, is just "THIS IS WHAT MEN DO", not what is causing it. not how to fix what is causing it. not anything productive.... just basically shoving men's noses in shit like they're dogs. Even the men that you wouldn't identify as a "toxic male" are grouped in to it a lot of the time. This causes resistance. If you say "you are my enemy" enough times, they will eventually become your enemy, whether they were on your side or not to begin with

This isn't "what men do"  It is what "some men do".  Some are like that, some aren't. 

But I want to say something else.  In high school, the girls went for the big strong boys who matured fastest and treated them like dirt.  In college, the women were (mostly, not always) the same.  They still wanted the big strong guys though. 

And I decided not to play in the game any longer.

Sexual characteristics are driven by choice of the other gender.  Men like women with big breasts, curvey hips, and soft skin.  Women like guys with broad shoulders, fearlessness, and a bit of reckless behavior.  That's what drives sexual selection.  Same in other animals, BTW!

Male lions don't have big manes because it helps them hunt.  Peacocks don't have extravagant tails for any survival reason.  In every species, one gender controls the apperance and mating actions of the other.  In humans, it is slightly equal.  Have fun thinking about that.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 06:22:36 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on March 05, 2018, 12:56:39 AM
I have met many men who were "toxic".  They ranged from athletes to office workers to laborers to husbands I met.  What they have in common is a profound dismissal of women as existing for any purpose of than sex and domestic service.  I argued with them to no avail.  They are unchangeable in attitude.

Good observation.  Fortunately I don't get involved in other people's family abuse situations, even cops fear to intervene.  Sorry if you were so exposed to other people's dysfunctions.  Eww.

More recent post ... another good post ... yes, it is biology.  But we don't have to be so predatory.  Predation is a spectrum, we need some predation, just not too much.  Of course some people (the toxic males) want the rest of us to be nice herbivores.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Munch on March 05, 2018, 07:43:29 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on March 05, 2018, 02:35:19 AM
This isn't "what men do"  It is what "some men do".  Some are like that, some aren't. 

But I want to say something else.  In high school, the girls went for the big strong boys who matured fastest and treated them like dirt.  In college, the women were (mostly, not always) the same.  They still wanted the big strong guys though. 

And I decided not to play in the game any longer.

Sexual characteristics are driven by choice of the other gender.  Men like women with big breasts, curvey hips, and soft skin.  Women like guys with broad shoulders, fearlessness, and a bit of reckless behavior.  That's what drives sexual selection.  Same in other animals, BTW!

Male lions don't have big manes because it helps them hunt.  Peacocks don't have extravagant tails for any survival reason.  In every species, one gender controls the apperance and mating actions of the other.  In humans, it is slightly equal.  Have fun thinking about that.

I know in my case, I'm drawn to big, butch hairy men far more then skinny or soft tone guys physically.

(http://24gay.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/959e2020fff71abaa2bc2bbb4ed53729.jpg)

That said, I'm never drawn to the douchebags, ones who treat others like dirt, the other aspects of strength, being grounded and fearlessness are attractive, but to this day I've never gotten this thing of people enjoying having someone with an imposing character treat them like dirt, it strikes me as Stockholm syndrome.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Mike Cl on March 05, 2018, 09:13:52 AM
I have found that much that is toxic in mankind is because of organized religion.  That organized religions are all (with only a few exceptions--Wicca, maybe??) patriarchal in nature.  This allows men to assume their 'rightful' place as the lord and master of their own household--their castle.  Men can become 'toxic' quite easily and still be socially acceptable--and many women are brainwashed by said religion to believe this is what god wants.   
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on March 05, 2018, 10:20:38 AM
Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 05, 2018, 01:25:31 AM
The thing is. Fuck urban dictionary. We know what toxic masculinity is.
Evidently not, because I read a lot of posts by people who seemed to be arguing about what toxic masculinity is and if it even exists. Judging by the "likes" on my post, it would seem that we are all on the same page now. Thus, a productive conversation about possible solutions can now ensue.

And as solutions go, a good place to start is education. The more people are aware of and understand a problem, the more time they will spend trying to think of ways to overcome the problem and/or raise the next generation(s) to value masculine virtues without going into toxic territory. Not the quickest or sexiest solution, not to mention vague as fuck, but it's a good starting point. Forum threads like this one where we discuss the nature of toxic masculinity are one such method of educating people and getting them to think. After all, it's gotten you to do some thinking, as evidenced by your posts. :D
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Munch on March 05, 2018, 10:37:35 AM
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on March 05, 2018, 10:20:38 AM
Evidently not, because I read a lot of posts by people who seemed to be arguing about what toxic masculinity is and if it even exists. Judging by the "likes" on my post, it would seem that we are all on the same page now. Thus, a productive conversation about possible solutions can now ensue.

And as solutions go, a good place to start is education. The more people are aware of and understand a problem, the more time they will spend trying to think of ways to overcome the problem and/or raise the next generation(s) to value masculine virtues without going into toxic territory. Not the quickest or sexiest solution, not to mention vague as fuck, but it's a good starting point. Forum threads like this one where we discuss the nature of toxic masculinity are one such method of educating people and getting them to think. After all, it's gotten you to do some thinking, as evidenced by your posts. :D

I'd wish for it too, and education is a solution, but fact is, as I said before, environment, upbringing, social standards country to country, everything is so varied it could never be a guarantee, the many aspects of culture and society the world over is just to complex. Making it available is a good thing, but in my mind, there are so many people in the world today, just like with homelessness, starvation, joblessess, there isn't enough room to teach everyone the right virtues and values.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Cavebear on March 05, 2018, 11:03:07 AM
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on March 05, 2018, 10:20:38 AM
Evidently not, because I read a lot of posts by people who seemed to be arguing about what toxic masculinity is and if it even exists. Judging by the "likes" on my post, it would seem that we are all on the same page now. Thus, a productive conversation about possible solutions can now ensue.

And as solutions go, a good place to start is education. The more people are aware of and understand a problem, the more time they will spend trying to think of ways to overcome the problem and/or raise the next generation(s) to value masculine virtues without going into toxic territory. Not the quickest or sexiest solution, not to mention vague as fuck, but it's a good starting point. Forum threads like this one where we discuss the nature of toxic masculinity are one such method of educating people and getting them to think. After all, it's gotten you to do some thinking, as evidenced by your posts. :D

I think a "toxic male" is one who abuses a woman by strength or position.  That is never right.  But let's acknowledge that there are "toxic women" too.  I have met both.  Neither is healthy for society.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: PickelledEggs on March 05, 2018, 11:28:41 AM
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on March 05, 2018, 10:20:38 AM
Evidently not, because I read a lot of posts by people who seemed to be arguing about what toxic masculinity is and if it even exists. Judging by the "likes" on my post, it would seem that we are all on the same page now. Thus, a productive conversation about possible solutions can now ensue.

And as solutions go, a good place to start is education. The more people are aware of and understand a problem, the more time they will spend trying to think of ways to overcome the problem and/or raise the next generation(s) to value masculine virtues without going into toxic territory. Not the quickest or sexiest solution, not to mention vague as fuck, but it's a good starting point. Forum threads like this one where we discuss the nature of toxic masculinity are one such method of educating people and getting them to think. After all, it's gotten you to do some thinking, as evidenced by your posts. :D
I never disagreed that toxic masculinity was a problem. I said it was from square one. If you want to be vapid, at least be accurate.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: aitm on March 05, 2018, 12:32:43 PM
TBH, I was actually unaware that such a "thing" was being defined as "toxic" whatever. Ass-holes are ass-holes and there are a few but far many more who are not.

You are not going to get a fix in any simple way because there are tons of sub-sets  that produce ass-holes so each has to be identified and a solution.

Ass-holes come from:

Abused as children
Bullied as children
Over bearing father
Missing father/mother
Dead father/mother
Gang involvement
and probably a dozen more.

Yes, there are a bunch of men who are ass-holes but the nice guys I believe outnumber the ass-holes 50 to 1.

Secondly, and by far more contentious an argument is that many people put themselves in situations with these ass-holes. I know in my life I have had  at least 4 physical fights with guys who slapped around their girlfriends in a public setting but damn if the girls were still there the next day getting whacked again. When we attempt to fix the "toxic assholes" we need to figure out how to fix those attracted to them.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 12:58:16 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 05, 2018, 09:13:52 AM
I have found that much that is toxic in mankind is because of organized religion.  That organized religions are all (with only a few exceptions--Wicca, maybe??) patriarchal in nature.  This allows men to assume their 'rightful' place as the lord and master of their own household--their castle.  Men can become 'toxic' quite easily and still be socially acceptable--and many women are brainwashed by said religion to believe this is what god wants.

Religion just reflects biology.  If your wife is your husband ... good for you, but most won't like that.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 01:01:41 PM
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on March 05, 2018, 10:20:38 AM
Evidently not, because I read a lot of posts by people who seemed to be arguing about what toxic masculinity is and if it even exists. Judging by the "likes" on my post, it would seem that we are all on the same page now. Thus, a productive conversation about possible solutions can now ensue.

And as solutions go, a good place to start is education. The more people are aware of and understand a problem, the more time they will spend trying to think of ways to overcome the problem and/or raise the next generation(s) to value masculine virtues without going into toxic territory. Not the quickest or sexiest solution, not to mention vague as fuck, but it's a good starting point. Forum threads like this one where we discuss the nature of toxic masculinity are one such method of educating people and getting them to think. After all, it's gotten you to do some thinking, as evidenced by your posts. :D

Example ... I get the impression that Bill Clinton had a toxic male ... his stepfather ... in his upbringing.  That may or may not have influenced him.  My father was an alcoholic too, fortunately it didn't get too physical.  Like I said earlier, I took the positive aspects of my father as a guide.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 01:02:53 PM
Quote from: Munch on March 05, 2018, 10:37:35 AM
I'd wish for it too, and education is a solution, but fact is, as I said before, environment, upbringing, social standards country to country, everything is so varied it could never be a guarantee, the many aspects of culture and society the world over is just to complex. Making it available is a good thing, but in my mind, there are so many people in the world today, just like with homelessness, starvation, joblessess, there isn't enough room to teach everyone the right virtues and values.

That is why you need a Catholic dictatorship by guys in funny clerical garb who aren't allowed to have sex, can't marry and who wear beanies stolen from Jewish sartorial kosher ;-)
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Munch on March 05, 2018, 01:10:42 PM
Quote from: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 01:01:41 PM
Example ... I get the impression that Bill Clinton had a toxic male ... his stepfather ... in his upbringing.  That may or may not have influenced him.  My father was an alcoholic too, fortunately it didn't get too physical.  Like I said earlier, I took the positive aspects of my father as a guide.

I really didn't take any positives from my dad, I could maybe name 2-3 happy memories of him as a child, but that was due to child naivety, so he was never a role model.

I think when your young, you look for role models, those older then you to look up to and aspire to, and we end up finding it in any place, in real life, family, friends, people we know briefly, people we don't even know ourselves like celebrities, and even fictional and made up characters.

It can also be down to the individual themselves. Anyone who read the story of Dave Pelzer, from his book 'A child called It', that even if someone is raised in an abusive, toxic and even nightmarish environment, that they can still become developed and adjusted people.
You then have examples of people (I'm trying to find the story but not come across it) who are raised in loving families who give them anything they want, only for the child to turn out viscous, narcissistic, and even a killer, not even raised in a toxic environment, they were just born messed up.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Munch on March 05, 2018, 01:12:10 PM
Quote from: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 01:02:53 PM
That is why you need a Catholic dictatorship by guys in funny clerical garb who aren't allowed to have sex, can't marry and who wear beanies stolen from Jewish sartorial kosher ;-)

I was under the impression Catholics work round that one by having alter boys used, no rules there saying they can't use them.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Mike Cl on March 05, 2018, 01:29:21 PM
Quote from: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 12:58:16 PM
Religion just reflects biology.
Bullshit!  And a total crock of crap!
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Unbeliever on March 05, 2018, 01:33:21 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 05, 2018, 01:29:21 PM
Bullshit!  And a total crock of crap!
I think he just likes to try pushing our buttons. He get's off on it.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Draconic Aiur on March 05, 2018, 02:09:15 PM
Thee way he is
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Cavebear on March 05, 2018, 04:12:10 PM
Quote from: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 12:58:16 PM
Religion just reflects biology.  If your wife is your husband ... good for you, but most won't like that.

"St Paul's advice in 1 Timothy 2:12, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent."

Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them:

Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them: “So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying,"

"“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5) "

I could keep going...
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Gilgamesh on March 05, 2018, 04:34:32 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on March 05, 2018, 04:12:10 PM
"St Paul's advice in 1 Timothy 2:12, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent."

Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them:

Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them: “So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying,"

"“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5) "

I could keep going...

What conclusion are we supposed to draw from this post?
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Unbeliever on March 05, 2018, 04:36:24 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on March 05, 2018, 04:12:10 PM
Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them: “So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying,"
You left out the part where the guy cut her up into 12 pieces and sent the parts to the different tribes of Israel-and it hadn't been said that she had died first!

Quote from: Judges 19:27-29And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.
And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.
And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: PickelledEggs on March 05, 2018, 05:01:04 PM
Quote from: aitm on March 05, 2018, 12:32:43 PM
TBH, I was actually unaware that such a "thing" was being defined as "toxic" whatever. Ass-holes are ass-holes and there are a few but far many more who are not.
It's a fairly recent coined term.
The concept is exactly as you described though
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Cavebear on March 05, 2018, 05:02:37 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 05, 2018, 04:36:24 PM
You left out the part where the guy cut her up into 12 pieces and sent the parts to the different tribes of Israel-and it hadn't been said that she had died first!

My bookmarks of outrageous parts of the bible are a bit limited these days.  I lost the best ones a few years ago.  Still, I find what I can...
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Unbeliever on March 05, 2018, 05:11:19 PM
I have them mostly memorized, as I have such fun showing them to Christians.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Cavebear on March 05, 2018, 05:17:17 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 05, 2018, 05:11:19 PM
I have them mostly memorized, as I have such fun showing them to Christians.

I don't have that great a memory (and therefore admire yours).
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Unbeliever on March 05, 2018, 05:31:24 PM
lol Well, it's not like I've memorized 60,000 digits of pi, or anything like that!
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Cavebear on March 05, 2018, 05:59:32 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 05, 2018, 05:31:24 PM
lol Well, it's not like I've memorized 60,000 digits of pi, or anything like that!

If you know 5 digits of pi (and understand the movie) you know more of them than I do.  That's why I have a calculator. 
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 10:23:20 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 05, 2018, 01:29:21 PM
Bullshit!  And a total crock of crap!

Excuse me?  I think you didn't read what I wrote, the way I wrote it.

People are the way they are ... politics etc ... because of biology.  Or are you claiming influence from transdimensional mice people?
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 10:24:48 PM
Quote from: Munch on March 05, 2018, 01:12:10 PM
I was under the impression Catholics work round that one by having alter boys used, no rules there saying they can't use them.

Not every priest is a pedophile, but too many are .. and the idea that they prefer boys, to girls is statistically unlikely.  We have yet to hear the scandal about priests and young girls ;-(

Sorry you have daddy issues.  But we can find other role models in other men ... and should.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 10:25:53 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 05, 2018, 01:33:21 PM
I think he just likes to try pushing our buttons. He get's off on it.

Haha ... you haven't read the notes my psychiatrist makes ;-)  Sorry if you have buttons, maybe you should try zippers instead?
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on March 05, 2018, 10:25:57 PM
Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 05, 2018, 11:28:41 AM
I never disagreed that toxic masculinity was a problem. I said it was from square one. If you want to be vapid, at least be accurate.
I wasn't talking about you.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 10:26:58 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on March 05, 2018, 04:12:10 PM
"St Paul's advice in 1 Timothy 2:12, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent."

Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them:

Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them: “So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying,"

"“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5) "

I could keep going...

Nothing in the Bible ever happened at all.  Shall I quote Steven King books to you?  How about a clip from Jason VII?
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 10:27:51 PM
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on March 05, 2018, 02:09:15 PM
Thee way he is

Sometimes Atheistforums is like a box of chocolates ... some are nuts ...
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 10:29:14 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on March 05, 2018, 05:11:19 PM
I have them mostly memorized, as I have such fun showing them to Christians.

So you show them quotes from your favorite Steven King novels?  Yes, many Christians are ignorant ... people are often like that.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 10:30:03 PM
Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 05, 2018, 05:01:04 PM
It's a fairly recent coined term.
The concept is exactly as you described though

Recently coined by allies of George Soros perhaps?
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Mike Cl on March 05, 2018, 11:02:48 PM
Quote from: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 10:23:20 PM
Excuse me?  I think you didn't read what I wrote, the way I wrote it.

People are the way they are ... politics etc ... because of biology.  Or are you claiming influence from transdimensional mice people?
Because of biology???  Everything is because of biology.  So, saying that is saying something meaningless.  You seem to be the king of that.  Meaninglessness.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 11:18:27 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 05, 2018, 11:02:48 PM
Because of biology???  Everything is because of biology.  So, saying that is saying something meaningless.  You seem to be the king of that.  Meaninglessness.

If you want to express your primal scream therapy, please do it outside next time.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: pr126 on March 06, 2018, 12:57:10 AM
Quote from: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 11:18:27 PM
If you want to express your primal scream therapy, please do it outside next time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmLfCHF3skk
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: PickelledEggs on March 06, 2018, 02:48:38 AM
Quote from: pr126 on March 06, 2018, 12:57:10 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmLfCHF3skk
I almost wish I could visit whatever rabbit hole of distorted reality you flung yourself into and that you currently reside in.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 06, 2018, 07:10:17 AM
Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 06, 2018, 02:48:38 AM
I almost wish I could visit whatever rabbit hole of distorted reality you flung yourself into and that you currently reside in.

No way.  Pr126 is definitely not an American college student snowflake.  And he isn't Alice either.

MikeCL, like some of us here, sometimes has anger control issues, and hits "post" to soon ;-)  But I think we have it cleared up, he and I actually don't disagree.
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Unbeliever on March 06, 2018, 01:26:07 PM
Quote from: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 10:25:53 PM
Haha ... you haven't read the notes my psychiatrist makes ;-)  Sorry if you have buttons, maybe you should try zippers instead?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIlAMmCl3Cw
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Baruch on March 06, 2018, 08:30:53 PM
See, I told you not to give power to the robots!
Title: Re: Toxic Masculinity
Post by: Cavebear on March 08, 2018, 12:37:53 AM
Quote from: Baruch on March 05, 2018, 10:25:53 PM
Haha ... you haven't read the notes my psychiatrist makes ;-)  Sorry if you have buttons, maybe you should try zippers instead?

If you want to post the notes, feel free. 

I tend toward zippers myself.  Much easier to close my sweaters and a quick candle rub on them once a year keeps them operating smoothly.  I like velcro on my shoes, though.