Refreshing to see a "millennial issues" video that isn't about how terrible we are, but rather about real shit that each and everyone of us, regardless of politics or race or sex or whatever, are going through.
I love studying in a university setting and would like to complete my Ph.D. but given my age and the expense it makes no financial sense to take a leave from work and pay at least $60K. I wouldn't necessarily make more money in my current career with a Ph.D. and I have no desire to change careers.
One of my close friends was disappointed two of his three sons didn't go to college but I don't believe studying at a university is for everyone. They both trained to be auto mechanics, had jobs waiting for them before they finished school and make a good living. I also believe that a formal education has value even if it doesn't directly translate into a job but that has to be weighed against a person's financial resources.
I guess that's something I need to learn to clarify with my position (not that I posted it here, but it made me think about it)...
I loved college, and learning for the first year or two... but I don't love having to work two jobs and still being $56,000 in debt with loans to my tuition(by the time I graduate at the end of the year, that should be a comfy $65-70k). Literally any fun with education has been drained from me...
I use to love watching educational videos... science, history, English... I use to love reading in my free time, and now I literally do neither of those, unless a history video REALLY catches my attention. It's a mix of burnt out and just realizing that time I spend could be better used to pay for the shitload of debt that was placed on me, and debt that doesn't even help me in the long run. Even when I graduate, most jobs will not pay a living wage. If I stay here, and work my way up the ladder like I am trying to do, I'll be in my mid-30s by the time I can have a job that makes me realistically self-sufficent... it's like my entire 20s have been wasted.
I only have 4 more classes after this semester, but it is a struggle not to drop out. There is literally not a single morning where I don't wake up and ask myself why am I putting myself through this and not just dropping out, and the only answer I can even come out to is because my family would disown me if I did... it's not even because I have any desire to stay.
Education has become a job for me, but a job that drives me in debt that, on average wages, would take me literally a year and a half of work to pay off (if that was ALL I spent every dollar on). So it's like working 3 jobs, with one job taking all the earnings from the other two jobs AND about 5 more jobs worth of income. And that's not even calculating interest on that...
But that's what pay-to-learn education systems give you... it's no longer a basic human right, it's a privilege. Education is only for those with money, and the rest of us are shit out of luck, or worse yet scammed into thinking we "have" to have it and turned into modern day slaves... and if we don't pay it back, unlike even gamblers and other debts, we cant go bankrupt (and with the new president, we have had our loan forgiveness programs taken away).
I totally sympathize. A proper society would simply pay all expenses for the top 20% of HS graduates to attend 4 years of college. It would cost a fraction of a DoD program to do so, and would greatly contribute to the defense of the US (to have smarter people). I could jump for that long before free medical care (which mostly goes to seniors who are dying anyway).
Everybody has a dozen stories about "somebody" for either perspective that would render the other perspective "useless". I have come to the conclusion that I simply didn't have the intellect for whatever it was I was thinking of dong with the degree I never knew I wanted.
I had no idea what I wanted to do. So my short time was wasted. It wasn't until ten years later that the learning bug hit me and I started to really get into it. But it wasn't any particular study, just general knowledge. My first task was the read the entire Funk and Wagnall Encyclopeidas. Well not completely, I didn't ready word for word the minutia of Bolivia or Panama etc.
But it did lead me to realize that we have people that are content to do menial work, people who are content to flip burgers or pick up trash or collect tolls, or just answer phones. We should not try to make people into something they really may be ill suited to do. We need the garbage man too and the toll collector (maybe not) and the fat woman behind the counter in any government office that infuriates you with her banal and scripted answers to the question that although simply can only be answered A or B when in fact neither A nor B could possibly be the answer.......er.....wrong thread maybe?
Not everyone is meant to be a brain surgeon. I am not (in spite of my mother's ambitions). We don't all need to have the same job anyway. Unfortunately a non-technical college course is pretty much ... at the mercy of the ideology of the professor (liberal or conservative). I got a D once, for falling asleep in class (one time). Technical courses are more linear and more fair. You either can do the problem or you can't.
I know I'm just a stranger on the internet but please hang in there and complete your degree. If you were a couple of years in quitting might make sense but you are so close. I know it is difficult but spending all that time and money and not getting that piece of paper is a big financial mistake.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on February 18, 2018, 09:29:58 PM
I know I'm just a stranger on the internet but please hang in there and complete your degree. If you were a couple of years in quitting might make sense but you are so close. I know it is difficult but spending all that time and money and not getting that piece of paper is a big financial mistake.
Ditto. You have the Internet to assist. All I had was a library card and a manual typewriter (Google it if that is before your time).
Depends how smart you are I guess.
Quote from: Jason78 on February 18, 2018, 10:26:53 PM
Depends how smart you are I guess.
Not really. I have plenty of friends coasting their way through college and not even breaking a sweat with a great GPA, and they are neck deep in debt that will take most of their life to pay off. My cousin is going to med school, which will pay well... but she is already $150,000 in debt.
I don't care how smart you are, those numbers are fucking terrifying, and it's something my generation is the first to have to deal with. All while salaries stagnate and costs of living rise. Edit - oh, and as lobbyists and politicians pass laws making it even more expensive and more difficult to get out of debt.
I'm not saying it doesn't work out for plenty of people, but even those it works out for are still going to be heavily in debt, and that is not how it should work... that's not how it works in any other civilized country.
Quote from: Baruch on February 18, 2018, 09:14:47 PM
I totally sympathize. A proper society would simply pay all expenses for the top 20% of HS graduates to attend 4 years of college. It would cost a fraction of a DoD program to do so, and would greatly contribute to the defense of the US (to have smarter people). I could jump for that long before free medical care (which mostly goes to seniors who are dying anyway).
Educated people make for a better society in the long run. But aren't the most promising students already subsidized through university scholarships? Or did you have more in mind?
Quote from: Shiranu on February 18, 2018, 10:40:00 PM
Not really. I have plenty of friends coasting their way through college and not even breaking a sweat with a great GPA, and they are neck deep in debt that will take most of their life to pay off. My cousin is going to med school, which will pay well... but she is already $150,000 in debt.
I don't care how smart you are, those numbers are fucking terrifying, and it's something my generation is the first to have to deal with. All while salaries stagnate and costs of living rise. Edit - oh, and as lobbyists and politicians pass laws making it even more expensive and more difficult to get out of debt.
I'm not saying it doesn't work out for plenty of people, but even those it works out for are still going to be heavily in debt, and that is not how it should work... that's not how it works in any other civilized country.
Excellent points. It isn't like it was 40 years ago (50 years ago, in-state in CA, it was free). Suggestion, have your med school cousin combine two things ... medicine and law. That way he/she can sue the other doctors for malpractice, and be their own SME on medicine.
Quote from: Baruch on February 19, 2018, 07:39:58 AM
Excellent points. It isn't like it was 40 years ago (50 years ago, in-state in CA, it was free). Suggestion, have your med school cousin combine two things ... medicine and law. That way he/she can sue the other doctors for malpractice, and be their own SME on medicine.
I think it is time for a new approach to education. Why do we educate for free only until 12th grade when that level of education doesn't get you anything? We need to extend it through 4 years of college to those who succeed. This extreme debt on individuals is contra-indicated for our society.
Quote from: Cavebear on February 19, 2018, 07:47:52 AM
I think it is time for a new approach to education. Why do we educate for free only until 12th grade when that level of education doesn't get you anything? We need to extend it through 4 years of college to those who succeed. This extreme debt on individuals is contra-indicated for our society.
Correct but most people don't need even HS education, they need trade education. But everyone wants to be a doctor or lawyer ...
Quote from: Baruch on February 19, 2018, 08:43:03 PM
Correct but most people don't need even HS education, they need trade education. But everyone wants to be a doctor or lawyer ...
There are other specialties other than doctors and lawyers. Any quick read through a college class list will suffice. But a basic college education is worth more than the specific subject. I didn't engage in politics or history with a Poly-Sci major and History minor. But it taught me a lot about how to understand the world around me.
Quote from: Shiranu on February 18, 2018, 10:40:00 PM
Not really. I have plenty of friends coasting their way through college and not even breaking a sweat with a great GPA, and they are neck deep in debt that will take most of their life to pay off. My cousin is going to med school, which will pay well... but she is already $150,000 in debt.
I don't care how smart you are, those numbers are fucking terrifying, and it's something my generation is the first to have to deal with. All while salaries stagnate and costs of living rise. Edit - oh, and as lobbyists and politicians pass laws making it even more expensive and more difficult to get out of debt.
I'm not saying it doesn't work out for plenty of people, but even those it works out for are still going to be heavily in debt, and that is not how it should work... that's not how it works in any other civilized country.
My point was, smart people generally don't need college.
Quote from: Jason78 on February 25, 2018, 05:46:48 AM
My point was, smart people generally don't need college.
No, smart people DO need college. It is what gets you from AVERAGE about understanding something to REALLY understanding something. Geniuses don't count. The rest of us need college though.
Quote from: Cavebear on February 25, 2018, 01:14:47 AM
There are other specialties other than doctors and lawyers. Any quick read through a college class list will suffice. But a basic college education is worth more than the specific subject. I didn't engage in politics or history with a Poly-Sci major and History minor. But it taught me a lot about how to understand the world around me.
Kudos to getting an education when it didn't cost both arms and both legs ;-) Yes, you went into government employment ... didn't use politics nor history at all ;-))
Quote from: Shiranu on February 18, 2018, 09:10:32 PM
I guess that's something I need to learn to clarify with my position (not that I posted it here, but it made me think about it)...
I loved college, and learning for the first year or two... but I don't love having to work two jobs and still being $56,000 in debt with loans to my tuition(by the time I graduate at the end of the year, that should be a comfy $65-70k). Literally any fun with education has been drained from me...
I use to love watching educational videos... science, history, English... I use to love reading in my free time, and now I literally do neither of those, unless a history video REALLY catches my attention. It's a mix of burnt out and just realizing that time I spend could be better used to pay for the shitload of debt that was placed on me, and debt that doesn't even help me in the long run. Even when I graduate, most jobs will not pay a living wage. If I stay here, and work my way up the ladder like I am trying to do, I'll be in my mid-30s by the time I can have a job that makes me realistically self-sufficent... it's like my entire 20s have been wasted.
I only have 4 more classes after this semester, but it is a struggle not to drop out. There is literally not a single morning where I don't wake up and ask myself why am I putting myself through this and not just dropping out, and the only answer I can even come out to is because my family would disown me if I did... it's not even because I have any desire to stay.
Education has become a job for me, but a job that drives me in debt that, on average wages, would take me literally a year and a half of work to pay off (if that was ALL I spent every dollar on). So it's like working 3 jobs, with one job taking all the earnings from the other two jobs AND about 5 more jobs worth of income. And that's not even calculating interest on that...
But that's what pay-to-learn education systems give you... it's no longer a basic human right, it's a privilege. Education is only for those with money, and the rest of us are shit out of luck, or worse yet scammed into thinking we "have" to have it and turned into modern day slaves... and if we don't pay it back, unlike even gamblers and other debts, we cant go bankrupt (and with the new president, we have had our loan forgiveness programs taken away).
I recall having the very same feeling at the end of undergrad. You are the Little Engine That Could. I think I can I think I can I think I can....
I was so burned out all I wanted to do was start earning instead of spending.
You have gotten this far. All the credits you do have are already paid for, so you may as well cross the finish line. Once that happens, you have a leg up that you will never have taken away from you.
Finish. Do it.
Quote from: Jason78 on February 25, 2018, 05:46:48 AM
My point was, smart people generally don't need college.
Honestly, it has nothing to do with smarts. It has everything to do with basic minimum requirements for job openings.
Quote from: Mermaid on February 25, 2018, 11:35:43 AM
I recall having the very same feeling at the end of undergrad. You are the Little Engine That Could. I think I can I think I can I think I can....
I was so burned out all I wanted to do was start earning instead of spending.
You have gotten this far. All the credits you do have are already paid for, so you may as well cross the finish line. Once that happens, you have a leg up that you will never have taken away from you.
Finish. Do it.
Nicely put and I agree completely. I think a higher education is not just what you learn about the specifics of a subject, but also how it teaches you to think carefully. A skill that applies to everything...
Quote from: Mermaid on February 25, 2018, 11:38:13 AM
Honestly, it has nothing to do with smarts. It has everything to do with basic minimum requirements for job openings.
I think that is actually a bit new. It used to be (the 60s?) that just having a degree in anything meant you had proven you could at least think clearly, and that was what most jobs required. Specialized knowledge is becoming more important these days. Not that learning "anything" has no value, but college itself is becoming a basic requirement and advanced degrees matter more to employers.
I am glad a basic BS was sufficient in my time. For my grandfather, a High School diploma meant about the same. But there is am upper limit, I think, to how many years of formal education anyone can afford. That needs to change. We need to reorganize education funding and skill development.
Quote from: Cavebear on February 25, 2018, 12:47:54 PM
I think that is actually a bit new. It used to be (the 60s?) that just having a degree in anything meant you had proven you could at least think clearly, and that was what most jobs required. Specialized knowledge is becoming more important these days. Not that learning "anything" has no value, but college itself is becoming a basic requirement and advanced degrees matter more to employers.
I am glad a basic BS was sufficient in my time. For my grandfather, a High School diploma meant about the same. But there is am upper limit, I think, to how many years of formal education anyone can afford. That needs to change. We need to reorganize education funding and skill development.
Youtube videos, for credit. How long can we continue to band-aid a Medieval school system?
Quote from: Cavebear on February 25, 2018, 12:47:54 PM
I think that is actually a bit new. It used to be (the 60s?) that just having a degree in anything meant you had proven you could at least think clearly, and that was what most jobs required. Specialized knowledge is becoming more important these days. Not that learning "anything" has no value, but college itself is becoming a basic requirement and advanced degrees matter more to employers.
I am glad a basic BS was sufficient in my time. For my grandfather, a High School diploma meant about the same. But there is am upper limit, I think, to how many years of formal education anyone can afford. That needs to change. We need to reorganize education funding and skill development.
I am lucky enough to be employed by a company that pays for part of my tuition, so I am working on a 2nd master's at the moment, at 55 years old. Without my first one, I would not have been transferred by my current company, so that bar keeps rising.
Quote from: Mermaid on February 25, 2018, 01:45:07 PM
I am lucky enough to be employed by a company that pays for part of my tuition, so I am working on a 2nd master's at the moment, at 55 years old. Without my first one, I would not have been transferred by my current company, so that bar keeps rising.
A 2nd Masters... I can hardly conceive the idea... Not to be impolite, but are you actually feeling much smarter? I know you are more knowledgeable, but do you feel "smarter". There's a difference of course, and I wondered about that myself in college. Was I just accumulating facts or was I learning to think better? What were they actually teaching me?
Quote from: Cavebear on February 25, 2018, 01:58:58 PM
A 2nd Masters... I can hardly conceive the idea... Not to be impolite, but are you actually feeling much smarter? I know you are more knowledgeable, but do you feel "smarter". There's a difference of course, and I wondered about that myself in college. Was I just accumulating facts or was I learning to think better? What were they actually teaching me?
I know, it's madness. My first master's was such a friggin pain in the neck, and total drudge that I was so happy when it was over. This new program came along and I swear they designed it just for me. I couldn't refuse it. It's more fun than I can express, it's brought me actual joy. I am not smarter, I don't think college makes you smarter. I'm just learning straight up memorizable facts, and also how to think in a certain way. And I'll be able to use it to consult, because I am studying with the literal God of the field (I am such a fangirl) and there are very few people who have the expertise they are throwing down, and it's hard to find people to do the work I'm training to do.
Quote from: Mermaid on February 25, 2018, 01:45:07 PM
I am lucky enough to be employed by a company that pays for part of my tuition, so I am working on a 2nd master's at the moment, at 55 years old. Without my first one, I would not have been transferred by my current company, so that bar keeps rising.
A former employer also paid for my masters ... and it was already much more expensive than my bachelors. It is hard to keep your head above the competition! So much easier, when almost everyone was illiterate.
Quote from: Mermaid on February 25, 2018, 05:29:31 PM
I know, it's madness. My first master's was such a friggin pain in the neck, and total drudge that I was so happy when it was over. This new program came along and I swear they designed it just for me. I couldn't refuse it. It's more fun than I can express, it's brought me actual joy. I am not smarter, I don't think college makes you smarter. I'm just learning straight up memorizable facts, and also how to think in a certain way. And I'll be able to use it to consult, because I am studying with the literal God of the field (I am such a fangirl) and there are very few people who have the expertise they are throwing down, and it's hard to find people to do the work I'm training to do.
i liked my MS subject matter better than my BS subject matter, that made a difference. I wasn't mature enough at 18 to know what I was doing.
QuoteIs College Worth It?
I've asked this lately also, and I don't have a good answer. When I went to college, you were going to get a job out of it, and it only cost a couple thousand dollars a year. It totally made financial sense, so the economic question wasn't worth considering.
The other issue revolves around personal improvement. You will be smarter when you finish college, assuming you put in some effort, but is that worth the cost? Only you can answer that question.
Quote from: SGOS on February 27, 2018, 07:40:24 AM
I've asked this lately also, and I don't have a good answer. When I went to college, you were going to get a job out of it, and it only cost a couple thousand dollars a year. It totally made financial sense, so the economic question wasn't worth considering.
The other issue revolves around personal improvement. You will be smarter when you finish college, assuming you put in some effort, but is that worth the cost? Only you can answer that question.
I didn't get a job directly from me degree, but I I got one eventually. It worked out in the long term.
Quote from: Cavebear on February 28, 2018, 12:33:11 AM
I didn't get a job directly from me degree, but I I got one eventually. It worked out in the long term.
I believe a college education gives people an edge. It may more may not lead to something related to your field, but it is an edge, if only a slight one.
Quote from: SGOS on February 28, 2018, 04:30:57 AM
I believe a college education gives people an edge. It may more may not lead to something related to your field, but it is an edge, if only a slight one.
Going from "flunked out" to office work, and back to college, I really had an advantage over the smarter students in seminars. 15 year of careful arguing with other talented people in the office sharpened my skills. When I returned to college and only had seminars groups of 8-12 others, they really didn't have a chance against me. And I was arguing with seniors and grad students focussing on the class subject. Experience is wonderful.