Because I have been accused of this in multiple threads, I will compile my response in one thread to save space.
I do hate America. I hate our systematic racism. I hate that forty percent of our college graduates are expected to default on their loans by 2023, and that two-thirds of African American students since 1990 have defaulted. I hate that when a huge percent of our population either believes the Earth is flat, that the Sun revolves around us or that evolution is a myth we are actively taking steps to defund and set back our education system. I hate the mentally handicapped are legally allowed to be paid cents-per-hour to work for multi-billion dollar companies. I hate that our minimum wage has gone down from $10.00 in the 70s to $7.50 today. I hate that our minimum wage is about half of what is required to be above the poverty line. I hate that corporations are legally allowed to bribe our politicians to screw over our people. I hate that as the global climate worsens because of human actions, and the cost to the tax payer skyrockets because of it, we are actively taking steps backwards about fixing it. I hate that we spend nearly 25 cents of every dollar towards our military when we already spend more than the next 10 or so countries combined. I hate that we say we have no money to spend on the poor, our education, our healthcare when we can spend billions on guns and bombs. I hate that getting sick in America is a death sentence to being either tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. I hate that we aren't number 1 in health care, number 1 in education, number 1 in human rights, number 1 in equality, number 1 standard of living, number 1 in happiness when we have the resources to be so. I hate that we aren't even close to number one in any of those categories. I hate that we have a president who defended Neo-Nazis who murdered a woman in Charlottesvile. I hate that a country that was founded on religious freedom now believes that only one religion should be free. I hat...
I don't expect you to read all that, and I hope you understand this is just a small fragment of the entire list.
But here is the point... I hate that America is not great, and is taking steps backwards from being great. I hate that America is not living up to a fraction of it's potential.
I love our racial diversity. I love our inovation, our industry. I love that we used to be a beacon of light. I love our music, our culture. I love our sense of community when tragedy strikes. I love that when the world was getting ass fucked by Nazis, we came in and beat the shit out of them instead of making excuses for them (eventually, anyways...). I absolutely love our nature, our national parks. I love our cities full of art and poety and music.
It is because I love all the things that make America great that I hate all the things that bring it down. If you love something, you don't say, "Well... I see you are changing for the worst, but I love those flaws too because I love you!". If your lover started doing meth and beating black people, would you make excuses for it because you love them? Fuck no. So why should I make excuses for America when it has a rampant opioid pandemic and instutitonalises oppression of African Americans?
For some reason I cant edit the post, but that should be "I love our racial diversity", not "I dont"..
Rather than just 'like' your post, I will add my too cents worth as well.
I love this country; and therefore hate it---right now. I grew up just after WWII and absorbed the zeitgeist of those times that we were the 'greatest'--most honest, free, loving, accepting, industrious, just; and on and on. i would love to think that now--can't. And it's not just that I became more educated and knowledgeable along the way, but that this country has become, with Trump, a 'shithole' in many ways. Disappointment drives my feeling of hatred right now. Trump and all that he represents, does to. However, I do not blame Trump for this feeling (well, maybe a little) for he did not hide who and what he is/was/will be, from the public. That is the scariest part of this time is that he was elected, which means a huge number of people in this country are simply Stupid Fucking Americans--and I hate THEM.
And so, Shiranu, I am a fellow hater. Which makes us part of the real patriots of this country.
Perhaps just a matter of perspective and propaganda. The US was extensively propagandized, and still is. We are told what to think and how to feel ... and we mostly do. The point before the 1990s, was to keep people happy enough that we wouldn't act as a 5th column for the Soviet Union. But that is over ... so now the real POV of the real owners of the US, has come to the fore. Of course anyone familiar with history prior to 1950, would realize what the depredations of the wealthy is all about.
On perspective ... most people who grew up in the US, who spend any lengthy time overseas, are glad to get back. But of course that is just because we long to escape the unfamiliarity of the foreign environment, and retreat to the familiarity of what we are used to. It happens with anyone, not just Americans.
I think I might convert this thread to a, "General Grievances that don't Warrant a Full Thread"...
Bipartisan, but happened during the Obama first term, to deal with youth unemployment from the 2008 downturn. But very badly designed (a flaw or a feature?). We could pay for all college tuition with a fraction of the Federal budget. No need to charge eligible students at all (academic qualifications only).
Quote from: Baruch on January 15, 2018, 02:52:47 AM
Bipartisan, but happened during the Obama first term, to deal with youth unemployment from the 2008 downturn. But very badly designed (a flaw or a feature?). We could pay for all college tuition with a fraction of the Federal budget. No need to charge eligible students at all (academic qualifications only).
Say what? Meritocracy? Blasphemer!
Quote from: pr126 on January 15, 2018, 02:57:29 AM
Say what? Meritocracy? Blasphemer!
It gets nasty ... there is a lot of "trouble" with how we set up meritocracies. I prefer standard pre-college or pre-grad school tests, administered blindly as to gender, race etc. Otherwise there is so much old-boy-network and affirmative action ... that just shows prejudice.
And do all courses of study deserve State support? Does French literature? I leave that to wiser heads.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 14, 2018, 11:52:43 AM
For some reason I cant edit the post, but that should be "I love our racial diversity", not "I dont"..
FIFY
Quote from: Shiranu on January 14, 2018, 09:35:46 AM
I hate that we aren't number 1 in health care, number 1 in education, number 1 in human rights, number 1 in equality, number 1 standard of living, number 1 in happiness when we have the resources to be so. I hate that we aren't even close to number one in any of those categories.
Eh?
You want to be better than everyone else?
Wouldn't that imply that every other country wouldn't be doing as well?
Being number one doesn't sound like a good thing.
I don't hate the U.S. of A. at all, but I'm a bit disappointed that it hasn't yet lived up to its ideals. Hopefully we'll do better in the future.
Quote from: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 04:42:50 PM
Eh?
You want to be better than everyone else?
Wouldn't that imply that every other country wouldn't be doing as well?
Being number one doesn't sound like a good thing.
Not really. I want us all to be great, I just want to be greater. Like pizza with anchovies, and pizza without; both are great, the anchovies just make it a hair better.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 16, 2018, 05:07:56 PM
Not really. I want us all to be great, I just want to be greater. Like pizza with anchovies, and pizza without; both are great, the anchovies just make it a hair better.
Eh. Call me a communist, but I'd prefer a world where people stopped wanting to win when it just means someone else must be losing.
You mean prosperity doesn't have to be a zero-sum game?
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 16, 2018, 05:27:31 PM
You mean prosperity doesn't have to be a zero-sum game?
I mean that even if it is a zero-sum game, I'd rather everyone sit at zero than one person sit at 100 while twenty others sit at -5.
Yeah, well, unfortunately the world doesn't give a damn what any of us prefer.
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 16, 2018, 05:35:38 PM
Yeah, well, unfortunately the world doesn't give a damn what any of us prefer.
Hmm.
At the most reductionist level, that seems to be true, but just because skyscrapers don't exist in nature doesn't mean we can't build them.
And if we don't like diseases, we invent vaccines and antibiotics.
Humans are capable of "fixing" and "changing" things. Suddenly denying that ability when it comes to certain subjects doesn't seem very... honest.
Oh, sure, the world could be fixed, except that it's the rich people who run the world, and they don't want it fixed because they make more profit from the chaos and misery of the world.
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 16, 2018, 05:43:01 PM
Oh, sure, the world could be fixed, except that it's the rich people who run the world, and they don't want it fixed because they make more profit from the chaos and misery of the world.
Rich people run the world because a lot of people want rich people to run the world.
That's the way of things.
Also why
I hate America. Well, one of the reasons. Few of them are in the OP, though.
Quote from: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 05:14:30 PM
Eh. Call me a communist, but I'd prefer a world where people stopped wanting to win when it just means someone else must be losing.
Why does being the best mean everyone else is losing?
QuoteI mean that even if it is a zero-sum game, I'd rather everyone sit at zero than one person sit at 100 while twenty others sit at -5.
And I'd rather everyone sit at 99.9 while we sit at 100.00. Suddenly that doesn't look as bad, does it?
Quote from: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 05:30:30 PM
I mean that even if it is a zero-sum game, I'd rather everyone sit at zero than one person sit at 100 while twenty others sit at -5.
The second part of that sentence contradicts the first part.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 16, 2018, 06:00:06 PM
Why does being the best mean everyone else is losing?
And I'd rather everyone sit at 99.9 while we sit at 100.00. Suddenly that doesn't look as bad, does it?
So if you're at 99.9 and someone else is at 101.00, you'd rather reduce them to 99.9 (or better yet, even lower) just so you could win?
That's the implication.
"To Be Lawful Or Good." Shiru no? This is the same. One has to be more important than the other. Either you would rather be the loser yourself than see someone else worse off, or you would rather see someone else worse off than be the loser yourself. I'm not a fan of people who hold personal victory as a higher value than the general welfare. Personally speaking.
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 16, 2018, 06:00:48 PM
The second part of that sentence contradicts the first part.
How's that? A zero-sum game means, well, the sum is zero.
Quote from: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 05:45:00 PM
Rich people run the world because a lot of people want rich people to run the world.
That's the way of things.
Also why I hate America. Well, one of the reasons. Few of them are in the OP, though.
I just heard Bernie Sanders say that the 3 richest people in America own more wealth than the bottom half of America. That's a good reason to hate America, I guess.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbBCyZxDAbY
QuoteSo if you're at 99.9 and someone else is at 101.00, you'd rather reduce them to 99.9 (or better yet, even lower) just so you could win?
Why does them being lower mean I reduced them? I rather work harder and better my number, not worsen theirs.
You are making some bold assertions about what I am actually saying...
QuoteI'm not a fan of people who hold personal victory as a higher value than the general welfare.
I am not the United States.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 16, 2018, 06:11:38 PM
You are making some bold assertions about what I am actually saying...
Sounds a bit like Baruch, huh?
Quote from: Shiranu on January 16, 2018, 06:11:38 PM
Why does them being lower mean I reduced them? I rather work harder and better my number, not worsen theirs.
You are making some bold assertions about what I am actually saying...
Not really. You haven't gone into much detail about what you're saying, and...
Hold on a second. I'll edit in the relevant research in a moment.
QuoteNot really. You haven't gone into much detail about what you're saying, and...
Except I have said exactly what needs to be said; I want us to work that fraction harder to be better. That doesn't mean we are bringing anyone anyone else down, just lifting ourselves higher.
That doesn't require a paragraph to explain.
Quote from: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 06:07:49 PMHow's that? A zero-sum game means, well, the sum is zero.
I misread. I thought you initially allowed that it's not a zero-sum game (which would be true) and then labored under zero-sum logic for the latter part of the sentence. Apparently, it was bad logic all the way through. Apologies.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 16, 2018, 06:11:38 PM
Why does them being lower mean I reduced them? I rather work harder and better my number, not worsen theirs.
I think the problem here is that omokuroi is conflating rankings with capability. The first is zero-sum (no two countries can occupy the #1 spot) while the second one isn't (if American life expectancy improves, it doesn't lower Japanese life expectancy).
Quote from: Shiranu on January 16, 2018, 06:17:26 PM
Except I have said exactly what needs to be said; I want us to work that fraction harder to be better. That doesn't mean we are bringing anyone anyone else down, just lifting ourselves higher.
That doesn't require a paragraph to explain.
Haa...
It kind of does.
http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Sherif/chap7.htm?wptouch_preview_theme=enabled
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797610397667
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/328/5984/1408
http://research.gold.ac.uk/21654/
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/cdr/2016/8649132/
I can keep searching for more, but the more I search for, the worse I'm going to find.
In general, it's been found that people--that humans--would rather harm an outgroup than lose, and if they lose are even more eager to harm outgroups in the future.
Some studies have checked whether this would be balanced against general welfare, and found... quite worryingly, that humans would rather harm
everyone, collectively, including themselves, if it meant their group would end up in first place.
If there are any experiments which have found otherwise, I've never seen them. The only studies which don't show hostility toward outgroups are studies which deliberately reduce the sense of competition.
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 16, 2018, 06:21:59 PM
I misread. I thought you initially allowed that it's not a zero-sum game (which would be true) and then labored under zero-sum logic for the latter part of the sentence. Apparently, it was bad logic all the way through. Apologies.
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 16, 2018, 06:25:39 PM
I think the problem here is that omokuroi is conflating rankings with capability. The first is zero-sum (no two countries can occupy the #1 spot) while the second one isn't (if American life expectancy improves, it doesn't lower Japanese life expectancy).
No. In fact, I've yet to commit a single logical error. On the other hand, you are incredibly vengeful ever since I pointed out that someone acting like a racist was, you know, acting like a racist.
Quote from: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 06:45:34 PM
Haa...
It kind of does.
http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Sherif/chap7.htm?wptouch_preview_theme=enabled (http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Sherif/chap7.htm?wptouch_preview_theme=enabled)
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797610397667 (http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797610397667)
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/328/5984/1408 (http://science.sciencemag.org/content/328/5984/1408)
http://research.gold.ac.uk/21654/ (http://research.gold.ac.uk/21654/)
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/cdr/2016/8649132/ (https://www.hindawi.com/journals/cdr/2016/8649132/)
I can keep searching for more, but the more I search for, the worse I'm going to find.
In general, it's been found that people--that humans--would rather harm an outgroup than lose, and if they lose are even more eager to harm outgroups in the future.
Some studies have checked whether this would be balanced against general welfare, and found... quite worryingly, that humans would rather harm everyone, collectively, including themselves, if it meant their group would end up in first place.
If there are any experiments which have found otherwise, I've never seen them. The only studies which don't show hostility toward outgroups are studies which deliberately reduce the sense of competition.
K.
I'm not particularly interested in writing a short essay on why you are completely missing what I am saying, since you seem to be the only person who doesn't get what I'm saying, so you win this argument. Congrats.
Quote
No. In fact, I've yet to commit a single logical error. On the other hand, you are incredibly vengeful ever since I pointed out that someone acting like a racist was, you know, acting like a racist.
Wait, now I am a racist?
That went zero to a hundred, real quick.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 16, 2018, 06:53:58 PM
K.
I'm not particularly interested in writing a short essay on why you are completely missing what I am saying, since you seem to be the only person who doesn't get what I'm saying, so you win this argument. Congrats.
What you're saying is "I want to do what other humans do, but also I am somehow going to be absolutely 100% free of the darker biases found pretty much universally among humans."
The problem here is that I don't believe you.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 16, 2018, 06:56:44 PM
Wait, now I am a racist?
That went zero to a hundred, real quick.
No, different post, new user was going on about "law and order" with respect to the Evergreen State protests.
QuoteNo, different post, new user was going on about "law and order" with respect to the Evergreen State protests.
Ohhh okay, haven't been in that thread in awhile.
Quote from: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 06:47:14 PM
No. In fact, I've yet to commit a single logical error.
Correction. Logical error and perceptual error.
QuoteOn the other hand, you are incredibly vengeful ever since I pointed out that someone acting like a racist was, you know, acting like a racist.
Make that two perceptual errors.
Quote from: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 05:30:30 PM
I mean that even if it is a zero-sum game, I'd rather everyone sit at zero than one person sit at 100 while twenty others sit at -5.
Old Russian parable. G-d came down and visited Sergei, a farmer. He told Sergei the good news ... I will give you anything you want, provided I also give the same thing to your neighbor Vladimir. Sergei told G-d ... Ok, rip out one of my eyes!
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 16, 2018, 06:09:58 PM
I just heard Bernie Sanders say that the 3 richest people in America own more wealth than the bottom half of America. That's a good reason to hate America, I guess.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbBCyZxDAbY
But Americans want it this way. We don't want to be free of oppression, we just want to join the bourgeoisie oppressing class.
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 16, 2018, 06:14:04 PM
Sounds a bit like Baruch, huh?
But I know that you know that I know ... you are encoding what you say.
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 16, 2018, 06:25:39 PM
I think the problem here is that omokuroi is conflating rankings with capability. The first is zero-sum (no two countries can occupy the #1 spot) while the second one isn't (if American life expectancy improves, it doesn't lower Japanese life expectancy).
In nations and individuals weren't predatory, then you would be correct. But nations and people are predatory ... either directly we reduce the Japanese life expectancy, or we lower it indirectly (this is usually the preferred option, it is too obvious if we drop nukes). In reality, even Gandhi was a predatory mother fucker (as passive-aggressive type). To save Britain in WW II, Britain deliberately removed food stocks from part of India, leading to famine there, and many deaths. Then again, bad weather can happen anytime. How much was weather, and how much was Churchill being callous is hard to tell. Certainly Churchill valued English lives over Indian ones. America is just like that, being the senior partner of the Anglo-American Empire since 1945.
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 16, 2018, 06:14:04 PM
Sounds a bit like Baruch, huh?
Just popping in to say I don't think Omokuroi sounds like Baruch.
No sarcasm; Baruch, I like you buddy. But Omokuroi has yet to say something I don't understand.
As long as I'm here might as well pass on my two cents,
@Shiranu . I agree that it's not essentialy unpatriotic to dislike the current state of affairs your country is in. To long for change for your homeland. Indeed, it can be as patriotic as one can get. I love my country. But there are definitely things I wish would improve or be altered in some way. To desire to have your country be the greatest it can be is fine. It's something good to feel. But indeed, we should look at the world as a whole. And in such a thing, we shouldn't look at countries as anything more than countries. Countries aren't to be leaders or rivals. Nor innovators or regulators. And our desire should be to have this prosperity and acceptance and propper education and affordable and effective healthcare, ... on a great and preferrably equal level for all of mankind. Despite it being something natural and inherent to our human nature, we shouldn't desire our in-group to be the best in the world. The best it can be, sure. But the best in the world indeed does inherently imply a ranking. The way the world works, 'the best it can be' will still involve ranking but not by definition because potentially every country's best could be on a potential same footing, especially if we were to look over such strange boundaries as countries.
For some people, if you don't sound like an undergraduate at that college in Oregon, then you are racist or Nazi. I don't think Omokuroi or I are either of those. But then I am proudly Kekistani ;-)
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 16, 2018, 07:12:38 PM
Correction. Logical error and perceptual error.
And you've eaten three kittens today.
...Evidence?
Quote
Make that two perceptual errors.
I didn't specify the causal relationship, I only pointed out a correlation. The evidence of said correlation is plain: the moment I point out that people who selectively enforce laws against racial minorities are usually racist, you start posting in multiple threads about how irrational I am.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 16, 2018, 07:25:05 PM
But Omokuroi has yet to say something I don't understand.
Thanks.
I don't want to be liked (or disliked), I just want to be heard. This is at least a little reassurance to that end.
Quote from: Baruch on January 16, 2018, 07:28:14 PM
I don't think Omokuroi or I are either of those. But then I am proudly Kekistani ;-)
I don't align with any groups. It's my experience that once you start holding some tenets as imperative, you quickly start sacrificing logic at their altar.
Quote from: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 07:42:15 PM
Thanks.
I don't want to be liked (or disliked), I just want to be heard. This is at least a little reassurance to that end.
You are very popular already, and becoming more so. Proof you are doing something very wrong ;-)
I have a lot in common with the title character in Jude The Obscure, by Thomas Hardy.
You're a stonemason?
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 16, 2018, 07:25:05 PM
Just popping in to say I don't think Omokuroi sounds like Baruch.
No sarcasm; Baruch, I like you buddy. But Omokuroi has yet to say something I don't understand.
As long as I'm here might as well pass on my two cents, @Shiranu . I agree that it's not essentialy unpatriotic to dislike the current state of affairs your country is in. To long for change for your homeland. Indeed, it can be as patriotic as one can get. I love my country. But there are definitely things I wish would improve or be altered in some way. To desire to have your country be the greatest it can be is fine. It's something good to feel. But indeed, we should look at the world as a whole. And in such a thing, we shouldn't look at countries as anything more than countries. Countries aren't to be leaders or rivals. Nor innovators or regulators. And our desire should be to have this prosperity and acceptance and propper education and affordable and effective healthcare, ... on a great and preferrably equal level for all of mankind. Despite it being something natural and inherent to our human nature, we shouldn't desire our in-group to be the best in the world. The best it can be, sure. But the best in the world indeed does inherently imply a ranking. The way the world works, 'the best it can be' will still involve ranking but not by definition because potentially every country's best could be on a potential same footing, especially if we were to look over such strange boundaries as countries.
I hate to say it, but I am not sure I believe that there is such a thing as global unity anymore, or that it is inherently the best system; I'm not even sure countries aren't too big to maximize potential. For example, the West/East of the United States suffer because they are held hostage by the Midwest/South, Cataluna suffers because it is held hostage by Madrid (even if it is the most prosperous region in Spain, it is held back by Madrid's regressive views), Progressive Scotland by Conservative London, secular Istanbul/Izmir by theocratic Ankara, Southern Italy by the North's racist policies, etc. etc. .
Perhaps the best option is to stick to one's own "tribe" (Southern, Catalunian, Scottish, etc.) and not let yourself be governed by foreign groups. Certainly work with any group who shares your ideals and band together for protection, but trying to force modernity or submitting to other "tribes" (for lack of a better word) seems to almost always backfire and instead ends up with the regressive party ultimately being the one in charge... be it New England/the West Coast or Kemal Turkey trying to bring progressive thought to the South or rural Turkey and instead having the national government taken over be theocrats and neo-cons, or places like Cataluna and Scotland being forced to suffer backwards ideology under the religious rule of Madrid and the moronic rule of London.
It's like corporations... they start off well, and I think many small corporations are great. But once they reach a certain size, all bets are off and they almost all turn into complete horror shows.
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 16, 2018, 07:52:48 PM
You're a stonemason?
If directed to me ... a grandson of a Shriner. But I won't show you the secret clown handshake ;-)
Quote from: Shiranu on January 14, 2018, 09:35:46 AM
I hate our systematic racism.
Specifically what?
QuoteI hate the mentally handicapped are legally allowed to be paid cents-per-hour to work for multi-billion dollar companies.
Would you rather them not have employment opportunities at all? That's the alternative. These companies effectively create positions specifically for the mentally handi-capped to fill - positions that aren't even warranted an existence for what they entail. They aren't necessarily positions, that is. They exist for no other reason than to give the mentally handi-capped a sense of purpose and a few extra dollars in their pockets. These companies don't want to pay them min-wage salaries because then people who are doing the actual work for the same salaries would be fucking pissed, and also because these positions don't generate any money - and therefore aren't warranted any pay; they're basically charity.
QuoteI hate that we spend nearly 25 cents of every dollar towards our military when we already spend more than the next 10 or so countries combined.
America also has a global presence bigger than any other military on earth. This costs money. And if this is really your position, please don't tell me you're also of the disposition that "we need to be doing something about ____'s third-world living conditions, man!" because the entity you want to diminish in order to save tax dollars (perhaps for social services for your own countrymen) is literally the entity that helps do that.
QuoteI hate that we have a president who defended Neo-Nazis who murdered a woman in Charlottesvile.
You don't.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 16, 2018, 07:53:26 PM
I hate to say it, but I am not sure I believe that there is such a thing as global unity anymore, or that it is inherently the best system; I'm not even sure countries aren't too big to maximize potential. For example, the West/East of the United States suffer because they are held hostage by the Midwest/South, Cataluna suffers because it is held hostage by Madrid (even if it is the most prosperous region in Spain, it is held back by Madrid's regressive views), Progressive Scotland by Conservative London, secular Istanbul/Izmir by theocratic Ankara, Southern Italy by the North's racist policies, etc. etc. .
Perhaps the best option is to stick to one's own "tribe" (Southern, Catalunian, Scottish, etc.) and not let yourself be governed by foreign groups. Certainly work with any group who shares your ideals and band together for protection, but trying to force modernity or submitting to other "tribes" (for lack of a better word) seems to almost always backfire and instead ends up with the regressive party ultimately being the one in charge... be it New England/the West Coast or Kemal Turkey trying to bring progressive thought to the South or rural Turkey and instead having the national government taken over be theocrats and neo-cons, or places like Cataluna and Scotland being forced to suffer backwards ideology under the religious rule of Madrid and the moronic rule of London.
It's like corporations... they start off well, and I think many small corporations are great. But once they reach a certain size, all bets are off and they almost all turn into complete horror shows.
Well I'm not talking about submission or the likes. I do still hold an affinity for the idea of global unity (not global conformity, though). Though I don't think it'll ever be achieved. Kind of like the idea of global peace. But seeing as that's not the crux of your thread nor is it something I particularly feel adept to defend or feel called to defend, I suggest not to derail your thread further.
I will say though I never thought I'd see the day you of all people would defend tribalism in some shape or form.
You may not be wrong in that aspect though. As a certain amount of practicallity and realism could be more beneficial than pure idealism. In essence, unwillingness to compromise between what one wants the world to be and what one can actually make it, could be holding us back.
Greed, avarice and willingness to win at all costs ... is what holds us back. The very qualities of capitalism. But that is what motivates the ape men.
Quote from: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 07:38:29 PM
...Evidence?
I didn't specify the causal relationship, I only pointed out a correlation. The evidence of said correlation is plain: the moment I point out that people who selectively enforce laws against racial minorities are usually racist, you start posting in multiple threads about how irrational I am.
Let me make this crystal clear for you since you can't seem to piece it together yourself. I make fun of irrationality. That's how I cope with the craziness in the world. When you come here and post a bunch of super irrational stuff, (like defending Trump under the rubric the crime doesn't exist, bizarrely enough) I'm going to criticize it and probably make fun of you for it. There is a way to avoid this, but not many people figure it out. Will you?
Defending Trump?
I voted Obama twice, Sanders in the primary, and reluctantly voted Clinton just to keep Toupee Marionette's angrily ejected sputum off the presidential desk.
But that's just my personal preference. If you happen to really like white people it's only logical that you'd support Trump. Calling that morally wrong only works if you pretend your subjective feelings constitute objective moral facts.
(They don't.)
i voted for Obama twice (the first time on hope, the second on rejection of Romney). I voted for Gary Johnson (on rejection of both Hillary and Donald). But if you don't drink the DNC kook-aide and hail from Little Rock, then you are an Orc to many people here. There are messianic strains in political discourse. For some Bill Clinton, George W Bush, Barak Obama or Donald Trump are messiahs.
But all messiahs are false, people project their hopes and fears all over the candidates. And the candidates know this and exploit it. For some others, Hillary is a messiah ... and that is just as kooky. Most of these people aren't even statesmen, not even competent politicians. The standards of the mob, are very low. Hence the upcoming candidacy of Oprah. Saints be praised!
Quote from: Baruch on January 17, 2018, 02:17:43 PM
But all messiahs are false, people project their hopes and fears all over the candidates. And the candidates know this and exploit it. For some others, Hillary is a messiah ... and that is just as kooky. Most of these people aren't even statesmen, not even competent politicians. The standards of the mob, are very low. Hence the upcoming candidacy of Oprah. Saints be praised!
Oprah is several steps above Trump just because Oprah isn't as actively malicious to certain groups of people who I happen to care about, though.
Also, I would like the Libertarians more if half of people who identify with it weren't just Republicans who were in a social group where calling yourself Republican isn't cool. You can't be a classical liberal and also think we need millions of armed guards firing at will along the border...
Quote from: Shiranu on January 14, 2018, 09:35:46 AM
Because I have been accused of this in multiple threads, I will compile my response in one thread to save space.
But here is the point... I hate that America is not great, and is taking steps backwards from being great. I hate that America is not living up to a fraction of it's potential.
I agree. Trump and his followers are nuts. He and they are against democracy. He and they are against news media. He and they are against the judicial system.
He and they are against "others".
He and they are against science.
He and they are against rational thought.
He and they are against anything that is not "THEY".
QuoteSpecifically what?
1. Despite the fact that African Americans make up 13% of the population and an estimated 15% of American drug users, 37% of all drug arrests are against African Americans.
2. Blacks and Latinos in NYC were facing an 85% rate of stop and frisk, while white people were stopped and frisked 8%.
3. Human Rights Watch estimates that African Americans, depending on where they are, are two to eleven times more likely to be arrested for drug possession than whites.
4. The U.S. Sentencing Commission found that African Americans receive on average 10% longer sentences for whites than the same crimes and 21% more like to receive a mandatory minimum sentence.
5. On average 17% of white criminals receive a call back on job applications after release from jail; for African Americans, only 5%.
6. Black students are three times more likely than white students to be expelled from school, even when the infractions are the same. Additionally they are 16% of the total enrollment but 27% of the students referenced to law enforcement.
7. Once black students become referenced to law enforcement, they are 18 times more likely than white children to be sentenced as adults.
8. An entire research paper worth of information can be found on the consequences of practical segregation of African Americans and white communities and how it effects their access to better standards of living, education, healthcare, etc. etc.
QuoteAmerica also has a global presence bigger than any other military on earth. This costs money. And if this is really your position, please don't tell me you're also of the disposition that "we need to be doing something about ____'s third-world living conditions, man!" because the entity you want to diminish in order to save tax dollars (perhaps for social services for your own countrymen) is literally the entity that helps do that.
1. How much of our military is in the third world helping, and how much of it is at home or in friendly, first world countries?
2. How much of that budget goes to helping third world countries, and how much goes to technology that becomes quickly outdated or doesn't even work, but we continue to award huge contracts to these people anyways (this is nothing new either, my grandfather was complaining about it all the way in Korea)?
QuoteYou don't.
If by, "you don't", you mean, "We have a president who said the Nazis were full of good people and both sides were to blame" (Literally victim blaming a woman who was killed for being part of a counter protest to Nazis), then you are right, "we don't".
That's a weird way of saying that, but maybe something is lost in translation.
Quote from: Baruch on January 17, 2018, 02:17:43 PM
Hence the upcoming candidacy of Oprah. Saints be praised!
I hope her running-mate will be Whoopi Goldberg.
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 18, 2018, 06:28:55 PM
I hope her running-mate will be Whoopi Goldberg.
Bernie couldn't be the first Jew in the WH, so maybe Whoopi will make it ;-)
Quote from: Shiranu on January 18, 2018, 06:23:51 PM
1. Despite the fact that African Americans make up 13% of the population and an estimated 15% of American drug users, 37% of all drug arrests are against African Americans.
Argument from ignorance, or 'God of the gaps' fallacy. You don't get to just insert whatever cause you want. There are a plethora of reasons other than institutionalised racism that could explain why 37% of drug arrests are happening to blacks. For one, and the most obvious, they have interactions with the police at a higher rate.
Anyway, if you want to claim institutionalised racism, you must provide proof.
Quote2. Blacks and Latinos in NYC were facing an 85% rate of stop and frisk, while white people were stopped and frisked 8%.
See above.
Quote3. Human Rights Watch estimates that African Americans, depending on where they are, are two to eleven times more likely to be arrested for drug possession than whites.
See above.
Quote4. The U.S. Sentencing Commission found that African Americans receive on average 10% longer sentences for whites than the same crimes and 21% more like to receive a mandatory minimum sentence.
You receive longer sentences when you're a repeat offender. Blacks are more often repeat offenders. Not only that, but again, there are many factors that go into determining a sentence. It's up to you to provide proof that indicates it's the factor
you want it to be. You don't get to just insert whatever cause (racism) that you want.
Quote5. On average 17% of white criminals receive a call back on job applications after release from jail; for African Americans, only 5%.
Same as usual. Argument from ignorance. Prove that it's racism, and not one of a million other factors that it could be.
Quote6. Black students are three times more likely than white students to be expelled from school, even when the infractions are the same. Additionally they are 16% of the total enrollment but 27% of the students referenced to law enforcement.
See above.
I wanted you to prove that it was racism, and instead of that, you, like any other plebian who I get into this with, just list off a bunch of instances of which you assume the cause is racism. Nah, not gonna' fly. Provide evidence that it's racism.
QuoteIf by, "you don't", you mean, "We have a president who said the Nazis were full of good people and both sides were to blame" (Literally victim blaming a woman who was killed for being part of a counter protest to Nazis), then you are right, "we don't".
He didn't say nazis were full of good people. You are lying out your ass. Not out of character for you, though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phPXTWJhnYM&t=38s
Unfortunately, Shir, Gilgamesh has a point here. A statistical figure is just a number without some sort of context to put it in. You can't say what the source of that disparity without research. You also can't say 'the cause is racism' unless you can show that racism is at least a contributor to these figures.
That said, Gil, the disparities outlined by Shiranu are facts that do require an explanation. And not just proximal causes like, "blacks tend to offend more." Why do they tend to offend more? Well, one of the correlates to criminality is whether or not you're poor, and blacks (and latinos) do tend to be poor in this country more than whites. And why do blacks tend to be poorer than whites? Well, an obvious contributor is that a good chunk of them are here because of the African slave trade. Unlike other immigrant groups to the US, blacks were the only ones forced to come here, and would be of a different mindset than peoples here because they wanted to be here badly enough to cross an ocean to build a better life. I can see that poisoning racial relations in the US, with blacks as a group having a feeling (not completely unjustified) that whites owe them something for that.
Of course, full caveats attach in the speculation above, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if something like that were the case.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on January 18, 2018, 11:48:52 PM
Unfortunately, Shir, Gilgamesh has a point here. A statistical figure is just a number without some sort of context to put it in. You can't say what the source of that disparity without research. You also can't say 'the cause is racism' unless you can show that racism is at least a contributor to these figures.
That said, Gil, the disparities outlined by Shiranu are facts that do require an explanation. And not just proximal causes like, "blacks tend to offend more." Why do they tend to offend more? Well, one of the correlates to criminality is whether or not you're poor, and blacks (and latinos) do tend to be poor in this country more than whites. And why do blacks tend to be poorer than whites? Well, an obvious contributor is that a good chunk of them are here because of the African slave trade. Unlike other immigrant groups to the US, blacks were the only ones forced to come here, and would be of a different mindset than peoples here because they wanted to be here badly enough to cross an ocean to build a better life. I can see that poisoning racial relations in the US, with blacks as a group having a feeling (not completely unjustified) that whites owe them something for that.
Of course, full caveats attach in the speculation above, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if something like that were the case.
My personal observation tells me that the reason for most of these instances is because blacks are poor. Why do I think that? Because you can observe poor people of any racial background and see similar instances. So, it's not a race thing; it's a poor thing. Why are blacks poor? They make bad decisions. Why do they make bad decisions? Because they're poor and because of gang culture. It's a negative feedback loop
Quote from: Gilgamesh on January 18, 2018, 11:54:48 PM
My personal observation tells me that the reason for most of these instances is because blacks are poor. Why do I think that? Because you can observe poor people of any racial background and see similar instances. So, it's not a race thing; it's a poor thing. Why are blacks poor? They make bad decisions. Why do they make bad decisions? Because they're poor and because of gang culture. It's a negative feedback loop
That is an extremely bigotted thing to say. People do not become poor because of bad decisions. They become poor because the wealthy are legally stealing from them every day.
Black people are poor because when white folk were forced to accept them as a part of society they refused to give them any good jobs.
Quote from: Baruch on January 14, 2018, 02:09:48 PM
The US was extensively propagandized, and still is.
I agree that gvment has trained us with their propaganda to suite their desires. but I am curious which propaganda are you refering to?
That if we give tax cuts to corporations they will share it with their employees?
That Russia was a dire threat because they had more nuclear missiles than us?(they never had more than 1/5 the number of U.S. during the entire cold war)
That they had to drop a bomb on Hiroshima? (Japan was trying to surrender 6months before the bomb was finished. and was already close to a total collapse when it was used)
That Mexicans are more dangerous to the U.S. than Trump?
That there is no such thing as a dirty cop?
Quote from: fencerider on January 19, 2018, 01:56:54 AM
That is an extremely bigotted thing to say. People do not become poor because of bad decisions. They become poor because the wealthy are legally stealing from them every day.
Black people are poor because when white folk were forced to accept them as a part of society they refused to give them any good jobs.
Oh no, another nigger defender.
Quote from: fencerider on January 19, 2018, 01:56:54 AM
That is an extremely bigotted thing to say. People do not become poor because of bad decisions. They become poor because the wealthy are legally stealing from them every day.
Black people are poor because when white folk were forced to accept them as a part of society they refused to give them any good jobs.
While i think gilgamesh didn't formulate his point in The most optimum way, i somewhere agree to it.
Poverty begets poverty. From one generation to another. Not just because of 'poor decisions' but because of lack of opportunity. And if you come frome a 'white trash' family, you are about as likely to continue that line of poverty as someone from a poor black family in The ghetto is.
The disproportionate amount of poor african-americans has historical roots that, in my opinion, are bound to racism. But continued trend to this day is not proof of continued institutionalized racism to this day. It might very Well still have a part, but i doubt it's The most important influence.
Quote from: fencerider on January 19, 2018, 01:56:54 AM
That is an extremely bigotted thing to say. People do not become poor because of bad decisions. They become poor because the wealthy are legally stealing from them every day.
Black people are poor because when white folk were forced to accept them as a part of society they refused to give them any good jobs.
That's an extremely bigoted thing to say on account of it being commie propaganda >=[
Quote from: Gilgamesh on January 18, 2018, 11:54:48 PM
My personal observation tells me that the reason for most of these instances is because blacks are poor. Why do I think that? Because you can observe poor people of any racial background and see similar instances. So, it's not a race thing; it's a poor thing. Why are blacks poor? They make bad decisions. Why do they make bad decisions? Because they're poor and because of gang culture. It's a negative feedback loop
But it can all be fixed, if we just go back in time and nuke Jamestown in 1607. They had no slaves in the world, or even in Africa, before the American colonists did what everyone else was doing.
Quote from: fencerider on January 19, 2018, 01:56:54 AM
That is an extremely bigotted thing to say. People do not become poor because of bad decisions. They become poor because the wealthy are legally stealing from them every day.
Black people are poor because when white folk were forced to accept them as a part of society they refused to give them any good jobs.
So set up your Soviet (committee of socialists) and go kill the rich people, right? Don't forget to kill rich Blacks like Oprah. They are just Uncle Toms. Like General Colin Powell and Justice Thomas too.
We all make bad decisions, in a bad society. It isn't just Black folk, but White folk too. And some say, contrary to Frederick Douglas (Lincoln for example) that Black folk will never be accepted in America. Frederick Douglas chose the future of the Black community, for better or worse. In fact, the option of shipping all the freed slaves to Liberia (American colony founded by abolitionists) would have been pretty bad for African-Americans too.
The Europeans sent their psychopaths here, and it shows.
Quote from: fencerider on January 19, 2018, 02:23:21 AM
I agree that gvment has trained us with their propaganda to suite their desires. but I am curious which propaganda are you refering to?
That if we give tax cuts to corporations they will share it with their employees?
That Russia was a dire threat because they had more nuclear missiles than us?(they never had more than 1/5 the number of U.S. during the entire cold war)
That they had to drop a bomb on Hiroshima? (Japan was trying to surrender 6months before the bomb was finished. and was already close to a total collapse when it was used)
That Mexicans are more dangerous to the U.S. than Trump?
That there is no such thing as a dirty cop?
Typical Leftist agit-prop. Initially the Soviets had fewer nuclear weapons, but they caught up, and currently have more (we choose to have fewer than we could, but there is a plan for new micro-nukes (see 9/11).
I know some people here are refugees from the 60s, and some even were part of the Protests. But you gotta stop smoking Weed.
Quote from: Shiranu on January 18, 2018, 06:23:51 PM
1. Despite the fact that African Americans make up 13% of the population and an estimated 15% of American drug users, 37% of all drug arrests are against African Americans.
That's a weird way of saying that, but maybe something is lost in translation.
If your point is that the system is unfair, you won't get an argument here. I would like all law enforcement to be equal and based on facts.
Quote from: Cavebear on January 24, 2018, 01:24:00 PM
I would like all law enforcement to be equal and based on facts.
Best not to hold your breath waiting for that, I'd say.
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 24, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
Best not to hold your breath waiting for that, I'd say.
I'm not holding my breath. I am, however, waiting in hope and expectation...
Quote from: Cavebear on January 24, 2018, 01:31:39 PM
I'm not holding my breath. I am, however, waiting in hope and expectation...
Hope fades
Into the world of night
Through shadows falling
Out of memory and time
Don't say: «We have come now to the end»
White shores are calling
You and I will meet again
Quote from: Munch on January 24, 2018, 08:09:51 PM
Hope fades
Into the world of night
Through shadows falling
Out of memory and time
Don't say: «We have come now to the end»
White shores are calling
You and I will meet again
The center will hold,
The night is not all darkness.
The stars still shine...
The sun will rise again...
Though people move apart
When the politicians argue,
They come together
In the hardest times...