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Humanities Section => Political/Government General Discussion => Topic started by: Shiranu on January 12, 2018, 07:32:11 PM

Title: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Shiranu on January 12, 2018, 07:32:11 PM

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Not shocked anymore by anything the vile president says, only that some people still attempt to dignify him.


Anyone who travels outside this country can tell you that most Europeans consider America to be a shit hole, so there’s that. There’s not a single time I visit Europe when I am not asked at least once, how I can live here. The rest of the civilized world views America as a country that is only kind to those on the right side of capitalism. And they are correct. If we’re lucky, we’ll live our lives struggling only with perpetual debt and expensive health care. Those who are less fortunate are destined to a life of inequality, poverty and despondency that by any moral standards is disgraceful in a country that has so much wealth, yet allocates most of it to military spending.


Let’s not be afraid to say the truth. A country that was established by the genocidal treatment of its First People and built from the ground up by the hands of black slaves forcibly brought here from Africa, should be a country that forevermore pledges to pay its moral debt to humanity by helping those who are in need of a better life. The white man should look to his fellow black citizens with nothing less than gratitude and compassion. And yet we have just to look at the quality of life for most African Americans to know that this debt is far from being paid.


A true patriot should develop at least some of this basic social, cultural and political understanding of their country’s history. Maybe then, in the place of contempt and entitlement, there can emerge a space in the heart for empathy and respect for their fellow man. And maybe then the poison of colonial aggression that runs in their veins can be replaced by a noble desire to atone and make tangible reparations.


That’s how America can begin to be great.

Figured it was relevant in two ways...


1. We were just discussing how America is, "the greatest country in the world", so here is someone with experience both from fleeing the Middle East, spending alot of time in Europe and living in America saying that's not the case. I know the raw numbers that prove that statement being wrong didn't sway some people, and I don't know why first hand accounts would change your opinion if reality doesn't, but why not try.


2. Does an Iranian-American count as having white guilt? Because she fucking nails it that white people SHOULD have guilt, and she is neither the oppressed nor the oppressor in this equation, but a third party looking in.

When the oppressed, the oppressor, and neutrals all say that white people should have guilt about their actions that continue to this day... perhaps it's the homogeneous group that stands the most to lose from it being fixed who are in the wrong. And maybe that's why they have to scream the loudest about why racism isn't as bad as it is... because if that racism is fixed, suddenly one of their only advantages in life is (in their mind) taken away.

Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 12, 2018, 07:51:28 PM
The Persians have been mean at times, and they are a split off the Indo-European tree, so basically E-white instead of W-white.  Back in the day, in the early Persian Empire time, Greece was the shit hole ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fdJNjF0lcY

Did you know that after the battle of Salamis, Themistocles defected to Persia, thanks to Greek ingratitude and jealousy?

Persians are fondly remembered in the Book of Esther.  Got Purim?
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: pr126 on January 13, 2018, 01:58:47 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJdumFFPLqA
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 13, 2018, 05:20:05 AM
Who can forget which shithole presidential candidate stole reconstruction money from Haiti?  All Democrats.

The all people are equal, all genders are equal, all ethnicities are equal, all languages are equal, all nations are equal ...
those people are French revolutionaries.  Put them in a time machine, send them to Paris 1792, let Robespierre deal with them.

The French revolutionaries even locked up Thomas Paine, writer of Common Sense (American Revolution) and The Right of Man (French Revolution).  Initially Lafayette and Paine were supporters, but the Jacobins destroyed that moderate support, and their revolution.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: SGOS on January 13, 2018, 11:45:36 AM
Greatest nation is a propaganda term.  If you use total wealth as the metric, maybe, although we are fast losing that edge.  If you use total wealth as the metric, you also might be a bit shortsighted since most of that wealth is in the hands of a tiny minority who are busy making sure that others pay the tab to protect that wealth in their behalf. 

There are a lot of ways to measure greatness, and if you develop a score measured on a composite of those other ways, well, then the US is not that great.  Even measuring military strength is kind of iffy.  Our armed forces are formidable indeed, but we lose a lot of wars against much weaker countries.  And then there is a political system that disregards the well being of most of its own citizens.  This is where I think we tend to show how NOT great we actually are.  I suppose to other countries, this may not count against us as much, because there are so many other issues where we fail that affect foreign nations.  But "Greatest" is mostly a feel good term used to color the actual reality, something we would desperately like to believe so that we can feel better while we slide further down this imaginary mountain of greatness.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 13, 2018, 01:13:51 PM
We beat Lichtenstein!  Go USA, USA!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7L7WLFBYR4
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Shiranu on January 13, 2018, 07:19:37 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJdumFFPLqA

His entire premise is wrong from the beginning though; it's not that he is calling those countries shitholes (let's face it, they are)... it's that he is saying, "Ew, why are we letting those people in? Those people from those shitholes! We don't want refugees, the poor here... we want rich white people, like those in Norway!".

This is the problem with basically every video you post... they go on the tangents about this or that, but they completely miss the point time and time again, and then pat themselves on their smug backs for how superiour they are for... what, defending racism? Bigotry?

When your not lying, or completely missing the point, it's changing the topic completely. Yes, the United States is better than Haiti. Yes, Norway is better than Haiti. That doesn't mean jack shit though in the conversation of, "Is Trump in the wrong for saying we shouldn't want people who are looking to make a better life, and instead only want rich people to enter our country.".

The United States, to Norway and most of Europe, is a shithole. When my ancestors came here, Italy, the Middle East and England were shitholes. When the overwhelming majority of immigrants come here, it's because their countries are shitholes. That's kinda America's thing... the poor, the oppressed, the tired and hungry come here to make a better life for themselves. We aren't a country of the rich, we are a country of the poor, of victims, trying to start again from nothing and work their way to the top. That is the American Dream, but there has always been  racists and xenophobes like Trump who want to piss on that and make it harder and harder for everyone else to achieve what they or their ancestors did.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: baronvonrort on January 13, 2018, 07:24:59 PM
The lefties have their organic 100% cotton panties in a twist over this shithole comment.

Is there any video or audio evidence he said this or do we take the word of some dick from the DemocRats?



Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: baronvonrort on January 13, 2018, 07:26:53 PM
Is this an example of a shithole?



Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on January 13, 2018, 07:30:12 PM
If the US were really the greatest country in the world, then why isn't the US attracting expatriates in droves from every country in the world? If we're the best, then everyone would rather live here than in their own country, right?

But the only countries that we get a lot of people from are from the shitholes. Yeah, that means we're better than those shitholes, but look at where we stop getting a lot of expatriates to see where we really fare in the global pecking order.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Munch on January 13, 2018, 08:04:00 PM
(https://media.tenor.com/images/9d37db1715023189e13881ee0e7eec61/tenor.gif)

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His entire premise is wrong from the beginning though; it's not that he is calling those countries shitholes (let's face it, they are)... it's that he is saying, "Ew, why are we letting those people in? Those people from those shitholes! We don't want refugees, the poor here... we want rich white people, like those in Norway!".

Well given your track record of saying he's wrong about every video Paul Joseph Watson makes, i'd bet you'd automatically think that before even watching it, so thats pretty moot.
Yet those countries Are shitholes, you yourself said it, which he said too, but he's wrong about that and your right? Hmm

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This is the problem with basically every video you post... they go on the tangents about this or that, but they completely miss the point time and time again, and then pat themselves on their smug backs for how superiour they are for... what, defending racism? Bigotry?

There was no defending racism, despite your belief in this, the video made a point that trump was right that the place was a shithole.

Getting a feel for what trump said, lets say you were an employer, you have a successful business and need the best people to work for you to increase profits. Would you A: hire someone with an education, experience and steady attitude, or B: hire someone with a lack of education, possible criminal background, and bad attitude?
Hey, if you can stereotype all of america into one thought bubble, dunno why trump can't do the same for other countries, it works both ways after all.

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When your not lying, or completely missing the point, it's changing the topic completely. Yes, the United States is better than Haiti. Yes, Norway is better than Haiti. That doesn't mean jack shit though in the conversation of, "Is Trump in the wrong for saying we shouldn't want people who are looking to make a better life, and instead only want rich people to enter our country.".

Way it seems now, your convinced to this point anything PR says is a lie since its conflicts with your own beliefs.
And honestly, do you think trump gives a shit at this point about hurting someones feelings? Your part of a demographic that hates everything he does, and yet when he shows the fact of what he is, you seem surprised by it?

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The United States, to Norway and most of Europe, is a shithole. When my ancestors came here, Italy, the Middle East and England were shitholes. When the overwhelming majority of immigrants come here, it's because their countries are shitholes. That's kinda America's thing... the poor, the oppressed, the tired and hungry come here to make a better life for themselves. We aren't a country of the rich, we are a country of the poor, of victims, trying to start again from nothing and work their way to the top. That is the American Dream, but there has always been  racists and xenophobes like Trump who want to piss on that and make it harder and harder for everyone else to achieve what they or their ancestors did.

The united states can have some bad places in it, but your now projecting your own hatred for the land you live in. Europe more then likely doesn't consider america a shithole, because we have the same resources, capital and means in these countries as america has, so why would anyone here think worse about america. Seriously, your just projecting at this point.
And now your playing the victim card as your sat here on your pc, laptop or phone, talking about how poor you are, oh you poor dear.

maybe you would take a page for george takei, who actually did move to america from where he and his family lived, he was in a camp at that time in america's history, but he has said many times that he loves the land he lives in now. You didn't travel to america, you were born there, so don't give us this crap like you've suffered.

Trump might be an asshole, he might be racist, but if you took a moment, you'd realize nothing he does will matter in the long run, and plus since you hate america so much anyway, why would it bother you if he makes a mess of it even more?

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/XVd6psNFsNbTG/giphy-downsized.gif)

now, I'm gonna go watch tumblr porn, the only thing that site's good for.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 13, 2018, 08:57:48 PM
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If the US were really the greatest country in the world, then why isn't the US attracting expatriates in droves from every country in the world? If we're the best, then everyone would rather live here than in their own country, right?

But the only countries that we get a lot of people from are from the shitholes. Yeah, that means we're better than those shitholes, but look at where we stop getting a lot of expatriates to see where we really fare in the global pecking order.

The US is a big international tax evasion center, like some other places.  That will attract upper class folks, at least to park their assets here.  Historically we have taken in the dregs of every society, to keep the population up, and the cost of labor low.  Thanks to international cheap transport and electronic communication, in many cases, it is no longer necessary to bring cheap labor here ... we can keep them over there.

The perfect is the enemy of the real.  No place is perfect, so compare any place, even Norway, to perfection, and it won't fly.  Unless of course you are making a dishonest comparison.  When young, I would have loved to live outside the US, because of the adventure of it, not because I hate the US, or love Portugal (for example) more.  But phobia does as phobia is.  Inverse xenophobia anyway.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: GrinningYMIR on January 13, 2018, 10:11:13 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-jzSQ3n5Um4
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Shiranu on January 14, 2018, 07:21:53 AM
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Well given your track record of saying he's wrong about every video Paul Joseph Watson makes, i'd bet you'd automatically think that before even watching it, so thats pretty moot.

I've never watched any of his videos before this one (maybe one, I try to forget them after watching them), so I don't know if every video that guy makes is wrong. But of the one or two I have watched, he was literally either wrong or the point completely went over his head.

If someone posted videos consistently from someone who insisted the world was flat or that evolution is a lie, and everyone jumped on him for posting that type of stupid bullshit, would you be defending that person as well saying, "Well... but you just assume the guy in the video is wrong!"?

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There was no defending racism, despite your belief in this, the video made a point that trump was right that the place was a shithole.

Except that wasn't Trump's point. I even agree those places are shitholes, but that's not what Trump said. He said we don't need people from those places, that it's so terrible that those type of people are coming into the country. Even if it's not racist (though he has already proven himself time and time again to be a racist, so it most likely was), it is certainly xenophobic and elitist.

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Getting a feel for what trump said, lets say you were an employer, you have a successful business and need the best people to work for you to increase profits. Would you A: hire someone with an education, experience and steady attitude, or B: hire someone with a lack of education, possible criminal background, and bad attitude?

So all Haitians, El Salvadorians and Africans are stupid, inexperienced and don't have a steady attitude, and Norwegians are all geniuses, experienced and well behaved? Or the ratio is at least significantly skewed that way that we should assume that is the case?

I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one, Trebec.

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Way it seems now, your convinced to this point anything PR says is a lie since its conflicts with your own beliefs.

Have you heard the story of the boy who cried wolf? When you literally lie post after post after post (No-go zones, that Muslims are going to be the majority in 20-some years, that all Muslims are silently rooting on terrorists and ISIS, that Musims don't condemn terrorism, that FGM is an Islamic thing instead of a regional thing, "America is the greatest country in the world!", liberals eat babies and are out to destroy Western civilization,  etc. etc. etc.), then yes... people will automatically assume you are a liar.

It sucks, but if you don't want to be assumed to be a liar... you shouldn't lie through your teeth time and time again. That as nothing to do with me being a liberal; there are people I agree with who lie through their teeth all the time that I don't take seriously. Huffington post, for example, is arguably on my side and shares very similar beliefs... I don't trust 90% of what they say though, because they exaggerate and just straight up lie like pr does.

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And honestly, do you think trump gives a shit at this point about hurting someones feelings? Your part of a demographic that hates everything he does, and yet when he shows the fact of what he is, you seem surprised by it?

No, I am part of a demographic that hates mostly everything he does, and yet when he shows the fact of what he is, seem surprised there are morons who actually defend his behaviour.

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The united states can have some bad places in it, but your now projecting your own hatred for the land you live in.

Oh for fucks sake, what is with you mother fuckers and this stupid ass bullshit that having problems with your country means you hate it?

Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Shiranu on January 14, 2018, 08:29:49 AM
Let me put it one different way... literally everything you said about Haiti, El Salvador and the African countries is plug-and-play applicable to my ancestors.

The English ancestry were essentially rural peasants with no education... should they not have been allowed to immigrate in?
The Scottish ancestry were inexperienced with modern technology... should they have not been allowed to immigrate in?
The Southern Italians were "hotheaded, criminals who followed a regressive religion" and thus were possibly criminals and had bad attitudes... should they have not been allowed to immigrate in?

When Trump says this shit about Haitians, Africans, Muslims, whoever... he is literally parroting the exact same shit that my ancestors had to go through; shit that lead to laws that prohibited us from having jobs, from getting out of poverty, from having the freedom to live where we want or marry who we wanted to. It led to a culture that viewed my ancestors as just a bunch of criminals and thugs, of being religious radicals, when all we wanted to do was live the American Dream.

So no, it doesn't mean I hate America... it means I want America to be a better place than what my ancestors came to. I actually find it rather sad that a bunch of Europeans who know shit-all about America want to tell someone who wants to see the country improve rather than regress that he hates America.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on January 14, 2018, 08:45:27 PM
^ This. I take it as a given that the most truly patriotic thing I can do for America is to criticize it, because it is by critique that one improves. I want to see America become the America it could be. And I don't want to be told by a bunch of foreigners that I should be satisfied and proud of America as it is, as if you were the very Kings that we revolted against so that we could be masters of our own destinies. I don't want to be told that I should suck it up by the very people who benefit most in seeing us fall for that attitude.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 15, 2018, 02:56:35 AM
Dissatisfaction with the status quo, is normal for 20-30 age group.  They should be passionate about ideals that better the status quo.  Younger people are children.  Older people are too entrained to the System.  Not that every ideal is good (they mostly fail the smell test) ... but that is the only way good change happens.  Otherwise entropic change happens, and that isn't so good.

Yes, constructive criticism, would mean actual political involvement, not just backbiting.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Gilgamesh on January 16, 2018, 08:40:17 PM
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"Let’s not be afraid to say the truth. A country that was established by the genocidal treatment of its First People and built from the ground up by the hands of black slaves forcibly brought here from Africa"
Sounds like prettymuch every country ever. Sounds like prettymuch any tribe meeting any other tribe ever on this earth, including the many tribes that existed in the Americas when they interacted with eachother, long before and up until the white man ever showed up. It wasn't sunshine and daisies. It meant death almost every time they met. So no, it's not a white people thing. It's a fucking human thing. It's just that whites created the greatest culture to ever exist - the western tradition - and so it permeated the earth - and so now everybody just pretends whites are the only ones that ever did it, because whites did it the best, I guess.

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"The white man should look to his fellow black citizens with nothing less than gratitude and compassion. And yet we have just to look at the quality of life for most African Americans to know that this debt is far from being paid."
Why? Many blacks are born into a way better socio-economic class than I. And certainly I never made a slave of any black person. What the fuck do I have to be guilty of? Original (white) sin? Since some people that looked like me did something bad once? Nah I don't want your dogma, bud.

btw there's slaves in africa right now. And systematic slaughtering of whites. Guess blacks owe me reparations now.


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2. Does an Iranian-American count as having white guilt? Because she fucking nails it that white people SHOULD have guilt,
Fuck off and don't speak on my beautiful race, goy-mutt =]

Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 09:38:53 PM
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Sounds like prettymuch every country ever. Sounds like prettymuch any tribe meeting any other tribe ever on this earth, including the many tribes that existed in the Americas when they interacted with eachother, long before and up until the white man ever showed up. It wasn't sunshine and daisies. It meant death almost every time they met. So no, it's not a white people thing. It's a fucking human thing. It's just that whites created the greatest culture to ever exist - the western tradition - and so it permeated the earth - and so now everybody just pretends whites are the only ones that ever did it, because whites did it the best, I guess.
Why? Many blacks are born into a way better socio-economic class than I. And certainly I never made a slave of any black person. What the fuck do I have to be guilty of? Original (white) sin? Since some people that looked like me did something bad once? Nah I don't want your dogma, bud.

btw there's slaves in africa right now. And systematic slaughtering of whites. Guess blacks owe me reparations now.
Most of this is quite accurate, but you've, eh, glossed over a handful of essential points.

1) Human thought and behaviour are correlated with sunlight exposure. In particular, those exposed to less sunlight tend to make fewer errors, be more cautious, and perform better on general tests (particularly cognitive ones).

2) Human thought and behaviour are correlated with parasite load. In particular, those with less risk of parasitic infection are more "open to experience"--meaning more creative, more exploratory behaviour, and so on.

...

I could list quite a few more points, but the gist is that there's plenty of reason to believe white success may primarily have been thanks to Europe being a very choice plot of land, rather than any racial supremacy.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Gilgamesh on January 16, 2018, 09:50:01 PM
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Most of this is quite accurate, but you've, eh, glossed over a handful of essential points.

1) Human thought and behaviour are correlated with sunlight exposure. In particular, those exposed to less sunlight tend to make fewer errors, be more cautious, and perform better on general tests (particularly cognitive ones).

2) Human thought and behaviour are correlated with parasite load. In particular, those with less risk of parasitic infection are more "open to experience"--meaning more creative, more exploratory behaviour, and so on.

...

I could list quite a few more points, but the gist is that there's plenty of reason to believe white success may primarily have been thanks to Europe being a very choice plot of land, rather than any racial supremacy.

Would you not conclude, then, that the tribes inhabiting this choice plot of land, being subjected to natural selection in it, would come to have certain qualities to their 'race'?

Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 10:03:37 PM
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Would you not conclude, then, that the tribes inhabiting this choice plot of land, being subjected to natural selection in it, would come to have certain qualities to their 'race'?
Obviously. I'm not sure that applies to the sunlight effects, but on the point of exploration and creativeness, it stands to reason that being consistently free from some of the primary risks those entail would shift selection in favour of a higher level.

Of course, those qualities are also assocated with less ethnocentrism. or in other words a lower tendency to say things like "my beautiful race."
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Gilgamesh on January 16, 2018, 10:06:09 PM
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Obviously. I'm not sure that applies to the sunlight effects, but on the point of exploration and creativeness, it stands to reason that being consistently free from some of the primary risks those entail would shift selection in favour of a higher level.

Of course, those qualities are also assocated with less ethnocentrism. or in other words a lower tendency to say things like "my beautiful race."

I see.

For the record, the "my beautiful race" was a joke. I feel no sense of endearment towards backwater white rednecks, for example. You'll come to learn that shiranu is a lefty regressive. Half of the thoughts in his dull head regard race - and every time these thoughts are about the white race in particular, they're not nice. So, in jest, I play the white oppressor he wants all whites to be.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 10:10:06 PM
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I see.

For the record, the "my beautiful race" was a joke. I feel no sense of endearment towards backwater white rednecks, for example.
I know. I'm trying to be playful.

And also demonstrate that I don't particularly side with racism. Even if you proved some particular ethnic group is five times more likely to have such-and-such negative quality, treating the whole "race" as guilty and sparing other entire "races" which also have that quality in their own amounts would be committing the same error as, say, hating all men because some of them commit rape.

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You'll come to learn that shiranu is a lefty regressive.
I noticed this the moment I saw a post taking "racism against Muslims" seriously.

Plenty of people are racist against certain ~brown people~ because they associate them with Islam. This has to do with them operating off lazy stereotypes. However, in actuality, Islam is (and Muslims are) just bad. That's not racism... or mistaken. Or really debatable.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Gilgamesh on January 16, 2018, 10:47:39 PM
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His entire premise is wrong from the beginning though; it's not that he is calling those countries shitholes (let's face it, they are)... it's that he is saying, "Ew, why are we letting those people in? Those people from those shitholes! We don't want refugees, the poor here... we want rich white people, like those in Norway!".


Trump wants refugees that have skills, or want to work - not 30-year-olds with the intelligence of an american 4-year-old.

 He's not saying, "ew, I don't want them because I'm an old xenophobic bastard." He's saying, "I don't want people who have 0 skills and 0 intent to be productive - especially when there's tons of people who are both those things competing to get in here." He's bemoaning the fact that you're letting in refugees who are so uneducated that they'd be considered clinically retarded, rather than would-be refugees who have a lot to contribute.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: pr126 on January 17, 2018, 04:42:52 AM
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I see.

For the record, the "my beautiful race" was a joke. I feel no sense of endearment towards backwater white rednecks, for example. You'll come to learn that shiranu is a lefty regressive. Half of the thoughts in his dull head regard race - and every time these thoughts are about the white race in particular, they're not nice. So, in jest, I play the white oppressor he wants all whites to be.

People have to pay an awful lot of money to become a lefty regressive.
Money well spent.

Meanwhile,  the universities are cashing in on this just like the capitalist pigs they denounce.

So far no student noticed or commented.

Irony?
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 17, 2018, 07:08:34 AM
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Obviously. I'm not sure that applies to the sunlight effects, but on the point of exploration and creativeness, it stands to reason that being consistently free from some of the primary risks those entail would shift selection in favour of a higher level.

Of course, those qualities are also assocated with less ethnocentrism. or in other words a lower tendency to say things like "my beautiful race."

Endemic European warfare motivates technology.  Slavery actually demotivates it.  The Romans had little economic incentive to innovate, to reduce the high costs of human labor, because they obtained it thru warfare.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 17, 2018, 07:10:02 AM
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Would you not conclude, then, that the tribes inhabiting this choice plot of land, being subjected to natural selection in it, would come to have certain qualities to their 'race'?

Only if epigenetics is correct.  But the primary superiority was warfare technology ... and only after 1500.  A major yet temporary advantage.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 17, 2018, 07:11:56 AM
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Obviously. I'm not sure that applies to the sunlight effects, but on the point of exploration and creativeness, it stands to reason that being consistently free from some of the primary risks those entail would shift selection in favour of a higher level.

Of course, those qualities are also assocated with less ethnocentrism. or in other words a lower tendency to say things like "my beautiful race."

Catholic Church in the West and Orthodox Church in the East, suppressed tribalism, for awhile.  In the past, the dispute between Barcelona and Madrid could be solved by sending in the bishops, not sending in the politicians.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 17, 2018, 07:15:17 AM
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Trump wants refugees that have skills, or want to work - not 30-year-olds with the intelligence of an american 4-year-old.

 He's not saying, "ew, I don't want them because I'm an old xenophobic bastard." He's saying, "I don't want people who have 0 skills and 0 intent to be productive - especially when there's tons of people who are both those things competing to get in here." He's bemoaning the fact that you're letting in refugees who are so uneducated that they'd be considered clinically retarded, rather than would-be refugees who have a lot to contribute.

Trump et al want PhDs who work cheap.  Not progressive at all.  And no country wants immigrants who are a net burden, and some want no immigrants at all.  But the West is special, we deserve all the nursing home residents to move here, for free nursing home.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Hydra009 on January 17, 2018, 08:11:17 AM
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He's not saying, "ew, I don't want them because I'm an old xenophobic bastard." He's saying, "I don't want people who have 0 skills and 0 intent to be productive
Right.  And the "they all have AIDS" stuff is clearly indicative that.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Draconic Aiur on January 17, 2018, 09:56:36 AM
Well to be fair alot of parts in Africa are Hellholes
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: omokuroi on January 17, 2018, 11:50:59 AM
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He's not saying, "ew, I don't want them because I'm an old xenophobic bastard." He's saying, "I don't want people who have 0 skills and 0 intent to be productive - especially when there's tons of people who are both those things competing to get in here." He's bemoaning the fact that you're letting in refugees who are so uneducated that they'd be considered clinically retarded, rather than would-be refugees who have a lot to contribute.
So set up the process to exclude things like race and national origin as factors, and instead focus on testing ability and health metrics.

But no one wants that because 1) there wouldn't be very many uneducated, disease-riddled Africans getting through, upsetting lefties and 2) there would be plenty of educated, healthy Africans getting through, upsetting righties.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 17, 2018, 02:21:30 PM
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Right.  And the "they all have AIDS" stuff is clearly indicative that.

Actually all Americans have cookies (no, not cooties).  So you object to the disease screening at Ellis Island?  We sent a lot of oppressed people back where they came from.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 17, 2018, 02:23:51 PM
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So set up the process to exclude things like race and national origin as factors, and instead focus on testing ability and health metrics.

But no one wants that because 1) there wouldn't be very many uneducated, disease-riddled Africans getting through, upsetting lefties and 2) there would be plenty of educated, healthy Africans getting through, upsetting righties.

A blind lottery, for people who meet certain criteria, would be fair.  But fairness doesn't tilt the elections unfairly.  Why were all those unwashed Europeans imported prior to 1920?  Democratic city politics.  Immigrants will be "grateful" to the political bosses who support their immigration.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Hydra009 on January 17, 2018, 04:01:40 PM
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Well to be fair alot of parts in Africa are Hellholes
Yeah...but the Prez has a lot of roles - chief executive, commander in chief, chief of state, and chief diplomat.  Being the face of America to the world means you should at least make a token effort to not antagonize other countries for no reason.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: omokuroi on January 17, 2018, 04:06:48 PM
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Yeah...but the Prez has a lot of roles - chief executive, commander in chief, chief of state, and chief diplomat.  Being the face of America to the world means you should at least make a token effort to not antagonize other countries for no reason.
Some people are happy he said it.

You mustn't forget that America includes its share of antisocial warmongers eager to put more boots on the ground. That's who Trump represents.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Draconic Aiur on January 17, 2018, 04:21:44 PM
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Yeah...but the Prez has a lot of roles - chief executive, commander in chief, chief of state, and chief diplomat.  Being the face of America to the world means you should at least make a token effort to not antagonize other countries for no reason.

He has none.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 17, 2018, 06:25:17 PM
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Some people are happy he said it.

You mustn't forget that America includes its share of antisocial warmongers eager to put more boots on the ground. That's who Trump represents.

Yes, he is quite in line with the warmongering Clintons and Obamas and Bushes.  Dark State Uber Alles.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Cavebear on January 18, 2018, 01:26:05 PM
OK, this probably isn't going to be the well-received post.  And I'm not defending the US just because I live here.  I didn't much like it in the late 60s myself.  But I know history and how things were before.

In the 1800s, the US wasn't considered to be very important.  We just stayed off by ourselves.  But we had just had a massive Civil War had the best armies in the world, and our warfare techniques held up a half century.

WWI was basically our Civil War, trench nightmares carried into Europe.  And by the choice of the Europeans who were almost always at was among themselves.  Bismark of Germany recognized the lessons of our Civil War.

The US, contrary to popular opinion at home, did NOT win WWI.  The European nations were just worn out and fresh troops (and supplies) from the US tipped the balance.  Woodrow Wilson tried to end warfare, proposing that democracies join together to stop future horrible wars.  The British and French would have none of that, though, and demanded nation-crushing reparations from Germany.  The WWI peace treaties caused WWII. 

I forget who said that the peace treaties were merely an cessation of war for 2 decades, but he was right. 

Europe has basically been at constant war since the Roman Empire fell.  So don't blame the US for that.

The US could have stayed out of both wars.  And maybe it should have.  Who won WWI made little difference to us really, and quite frankly, we could have just as well traded with a WWII German empire as a Franco-British one. 

Were the Nazis horrible?  Of course they were.  But so were the Russians.  And the other nations in Europe were colonial empires treating the peoples they ruled badly.  No one had clean hands.  The history of post-Roman civilization just drips blood over all the pages.

Back to the US.  Who do you think started slavery?  The US?  Of course not.  The British began it here before we were a nation and they left us that evil problem.  And everyone in Europe and Asia traded in slavery.  That didn't make it right for us.  In fact it made it worse. Our ideals were stained by blood and horror from the start.

Back to WWII.  Had Germany won, and the US out, we would have traded with them.  As would Britain and Russia and everyone else.  But we didn't stay out and they fell. 

Europeans hate this, but who do you think rebuilt Europe?  Remember the Marshall Plan?  We rebuilt Europe new and fresh.  All the old infrastructure was gone and we made it so "because that seemed the right thing to do.  Any pre-WWII leader  would have said we were crazy to do it. 

We COULD have just kept to ourselves and gained more wealth (and recovered from the war with Japan) and taking it over in European-style.

We did none of that...

We thought the world was better off with sovreign democracies and so we started the United Nations.

I was born in 1950, only 5 years after WWII ended.  I remember, growing up, that the adults talked about a better world we were helping to build.  It lasted until I became an adult.  The Pax Americana. 

But no nation can maintain that selflessness.  We are all just human.  Influence and power corrupted us.  We caught the European and Asian "flu" in the 80's.  Thought that, with military power, we could keep the world "right". 

One war led to another, small crap mostly.  Vietnam to support the French for example.  Bailed their asses out and where did THAT get us?  Do the French love us now?

We are worn out, thankyouverymuch...  Our ideals are ruined by realpolitiks. We threw ourselves into the Peace Corps, brought other nations along with us into space (eventually), faced down the Soviets...  And no one cares a damn!

So now we have citizens who say "keep to ourselves", "screw the world", and pull back because nothing we did after WWII seemed to make the world better...

The result is PRESIDENT Donald the fuck Trump.  You all deserve him.  You created him, hating us for not being perfect, until enough US voters said "enough", let's just go for ourselves for a while...

And what will the future bring?  China.  And Russia. 

Have a happy...
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 18, 2018, 01:34:57 PM
America ... hell yeah!

I agree, but you can't take the Euro-trash out.  We own it now.

I agree, it would have been interesting, and plausible, for the US to support Imperial Germany.  But Wilson had given control of the US over to the Bank of England clone, the Federal Reserve.  The British Empire had us by the balls, over 6 months before Sarajevo.

And sorry, the French will never be happy, as long as one Anglophone is happy.  The alliance was temporary .. and not even worth much in WW II.  Germans and Russians have good reason to hate us.  So I don't consider their opinions to have any objectivity.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Cavebear on January 18, 2018, 01:43:49 PM
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America ... hell yeah!

I agree, but you can't take the Euro-trash out.  We own it now.

I agree, it would have been interesting, and plausible, for the US to support Imperial Germany.  But Wilson had given control of the US over to the Bank of England clone, the Federal Reserve.  The British Empire had us by the balls, over 6 months before Sarajevo.

And sorry, the French will never be happy, as long as one Anglophone is happy.  The alliance was temporary .. and not even worth much in WW II.  Germans and Russians have good reason to hate us.  So I don't consider their opinions to have any objectivity.

You mistake.  I didn't argue for Germany in WWI.  They were just another monarchy among others then and the British were bloodlined to them.

Its WWII and after that ruined everything.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 18, 2018, 01:47:32 PM
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You mistake.  I didn't argue for Germany in WWI.  They were just another monarchy among others then and the British were bloodlined to them.

Its WWII and after that ruined everything.

Achtung, you must return your picklehaube then!  The largest second language in the US, in 1914, was German.  My mother's father was German-American.  Why should we have helped the only country that ever burned down Washington DC?
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Cavebear on January 18, 2018, 01:58:13 PM
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Achtung, you must return your picklehaube then!  The largest second language in the US, in 1914, was German.  My mother's father was German-American.  Why should we have helped the only country that ever burned down Washington DC?

Because when push comes to shove between siblings, we were still mostly British until the 1980s.

And the Brits only burned Washington DC after we burned some Canadian city.  Toronto, I think.

BTW, I've never understood how you can burn down a stone building. 
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 18, 2018, 02:03:10 PM
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Because when push comes to shove between siblings, we were still mostly British until the 1980s.

And the Brits only burned Washington DC after we burned some Canadian city.  Toronto, I think.

BTW, I've never understood how you can burn down a stone building.

It was Port Dover that was burned by the Americans.  Wooden cabins mostly.  In the case of Washington DC, they weren't using steel beams in the original WH or Capital buildings.  Wooden support beams.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Cavebear on January 18, 2018, 02:06:39 PM
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It was Port Dover that was burned by the Americans.  Wooden cabins mostly.  In the case of Washington DC, they weren't using steel beams in the original WH or Capital buildings.  Wooden support beams.

The wood support beams makes sense.  And probably all the tapestries hanging on the walls to keep out the cold.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 18, 2018, 02:19:17 PM
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The wood support beams makes sense.  And probably all the tapestries hanging on the walls to keep out the cold.  Thank you.

All the pending bills (and budgets) they never got around to voting on ... flammable!  Amazing the original hot air didn't burn it down on its own!
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Cavebear on January 18, 2018, 03:01:04 PM
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All the pending bills (and budgets) they never got around to voting on ... flammable!  Amazing the original hot air didn't burn it down on its own!

It still bothers me vaguely that a city made mostly of stone can burn.  Maybe they all hoarded Franklin's newspapers...
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Shiranu on January 18, 2018, 06:08:45 PM
Quote
Trump wants refugees that have skills, or want to work - not 30-year-olds with the intelligence of an american 4-year-old.

 He's not saying, "ew, I don't want them because I'm an old xenophobic bastard." He's saying, "I don't want people who have 0 skills and 0 intent to be productive - especially when there's tons of people who are both those things competing to get in here." He's bemoaning the fact that you're letting in refugees who are so uneducated that they'd be considered clinically retarded, rather than would-be refugees who have a lot to contribute.

That is a lot of interpretation from, "Why should DACA be protecting people from Haiti, El Salvador, Africa... those shithole countries? What we need is more immigrants from countries like Norway." .

The bill that he made that remark about was protecting children of immigrants who work hard and have earned their place in the country; DREAMers. That is the bill that he refused to approve a bipartisan agreement proposal on because it protecting the "shithole" immigrant's children. So I'm sorry, but that interpretation just doesn't hold up.

This is added ontop of his recent plan to cut protection for the Haitians that moved here following the Earthquake that killed over 200,000 Haitians.

Haitian Americans have been a huge part of our culture for over a hundred years. This hatred of them is utterly unfounded and if it was anyone else, borderline racist. Since it is Trump who has already proven himself to be a racist... it's just racist.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 18, 2018, 09:13:00 PM
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It still bothers me vaguely that a city made mostly of stone can burn.  Maybe they all hoarded Franklin's newspapers...

Jefferson gave his personal library to the Congress, that helped fan the flames.  That and midnight trysts with Sally Hemings.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Cavebear on January 24, 2018, 01:29:57 PM
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That is a lot of interpretation from, "Why should DACA be protecting people from Haiti, El Salvador, Africa... those shithole countries? What we need is more immigrants from countries like Norway." .

(cut)

Haitian Americans have been a huge part of our culture for over a hundred years. This hatred of them is utterly unfounded and if it was anyone else, borderline racist. Since it is Trump who has already proven himself to be a racist... it's just racist.

I would like to see immigrants "from everywhere".  And I don't mean "not from some places".

Have you ever heard the term "reconquista"?  I don't want that either.  I want a balanced diversity.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 24, 2018, 07:58:01 PM
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I would like to see immigrants "from everywhere".  And I don't mean "not from some places".

Have you ever heard the term "reconquista"?  I don't want that either.  I want a balanced diversity.

Black bears, brown bears, polar bears, grizzly bears and Kodiak bears ... oh my!
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Unbeliever on January 24, 2018, 08:16:58 PM
I read Clan of the Cave Bear many years ago, it was a very good read.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 24, 2018, 08:18:09 PM
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I read Clan of the Cave Bear many years ago, it was a very good read.

My daughter enjoyed that when she was 12.  I thought it a little feminist.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Unbeliever on January 24, 2018, 08:21:25 PM
Well, I did say it was many years ago - maybe 40 or so. It was a good story, and I didn't even think about feminism back in those days.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 04:44:02 AM
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Black bears, brown bears, polar bears, grizzly bears and Kodiak bears ... oh my!

You didn't answer my question. 

Have you ever heard the term "reconquista"?  I don't want that either.  I want a balanced diversity.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 09:16:44 AM
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You didn't answer my question. 

Have you ever heard the term "reconquista"?  I don't want that either.  I want a balanced diversity.

I am must less worried about local armed invasion in the US ... than I would in other countries.  Geography matters.  And Reconquista actually is Whites kicking out Colored Folk (in Iberia).  Very racist that was.  It is the Tea Party that advocates Reconquista.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 09:26:54 AM
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I am must less worried about local armed invasion in the US ... than I would in other countries.  Geography matters.  And Reconquista actually is Whites kicking out Colored Folk (in Iberia).  Very racist that was.  It is the Tea Party that advocates Reconquista.

:Reconquista" is something that Vincente Fox once mentioned about Mexican immigration to the Southern US.  I understand why.  The US took Mexican lands.  But almost everyone has taken lands from others throughout history.  Could or should past events like that be undone?  Where would it stop?  We all came from Africa after all.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 09:37:24 AM
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:Reconquista" is something that Vincente Fox once mentioned about Mexican immigration to the Southern US.  I understand why.  The US took Mexican lands.  But almost everyone has taken lands from others throughout history.  Could or should past events like that be undone?  Where would it stop?  We all came from Africa after all.

Yes, Mexicans would say that.  I love Mexicans, on both sides of our Southern Border.  But it is a death wish for them.  It is partly Indios vs Whetos.  Metizos and Negros think they are Indios, but not according to the Tarahamara or Yaqui.  And it is an incredibly ignorant use of language ;-(  Except that most Mexicans are Catholics.  So maybe they come here to expel Jews, Muslims and Protestants?
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 11:21:03 AM
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Yes, Mexicans would say that.  I love Mexicans, on both sides of our Southern Border.  But it is a death wish for them.  It is partly Indios vs Whetos.  Metizos and Negros think they are Indios, but not according to the Tarahamara or Yaqui.  And it is an incredibly ignorant use of language ;-(  Except that most Mexicans are Catholics.  So maybe they come here to expel Jews, Muslims and Protestants?

Too many flags over Mehico...  I would stay away from there personally.  Someday it may be like the Balkans,
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:22:11 PM
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Too many flags over Mehico...  I would stay away from there personally.  Someday it may be like the Balkans,

Already is ... heard of the Monroe Doctrine?  And the US for 200 years is the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 03:24:45 PM
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Already is ... heard of the Monroe Doctrine?  And the US for 200 years is the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

It hasn't been, and here is why.  A-H ruled over distinct ethnic groups all in separate places.

But the US is in DANGER of becoming like that.  not 200 years, but now.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:26:17 PM
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It hasn't been, and here is why.  A-H ruled over distinct ethnic groups all in separate places.

But the US is in DANGER of becoming like that.  not 200 years, but now.

I thought you meant, the W Hemisphere in general.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 03:28:15 PM
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I thought you meant, the W Hemisphere in general.

You can't escape THAT easily.  You specifically referred to the Monroe Doctrine.  Don't try to get around a Poly-Sci major...
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:37:21 PM
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You can't escape THAT easily.  You specifically referred to the Monroe Doctrine.  Don't try to get around a Poly-Sci major...

Monroe Doctrine refers to the whole W Hemisphere.  Your point?  It wasn't clear you were only talking about unmanaged immigration.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 03:43:18 PM
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Monroe Doctrine refers to the whole W Hemisphere.  Your point?  It wasn't clear you were only talking about unmanaged immigration.

The Monroe Doctrine was entirely a US  declaration and enforced as such.  There was no "western hemisphere" about it.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:45:01 PM
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The Monroe Doctrine was entirely a US  declaration and enforced as such.  There was no "western hemisphere" about it.

Confusion.  Of course the Europeans and the rest of the W Hemisphere didn't agree.  President Monroe didn't care.  So?
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 03:50:00 PM
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Confusion.  Of course the Europeans and the rest of the W Hemisphere didn't agree.  President Monroe didn't care.  So?

OK, sorry.  You are saying "western hemisphere" and that is more than "the US".  The Monroe Doctrine was about the Americas but not by all the nations in it just "the US", and we generally consider Western Europe "western hemisphere".  I did not mean to be confusing (though it certainly can be).