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Humanities Section => Political/Government General Discussion => Topic started by: Shiranu on January 12, 2018, 07:32:11 PM

Title: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Shiranu on January 12, 2018, 07:32:11 PM

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Not shocked anymore by anything the vile president says, only that some people still attempt to dignify him.


Anyone who travels outside this country can tell you that most Europeans consider America to be a shit hole, so there’s that. There’s not a single time I visit Europe when I am not asked at least once, how I can live here. The rest of the civilized world views America as a country that is only kind to those on the right side of capitalism. And they are correct. If we’re lucky, we’ll live our lives struggling only with perpetual debt and expensive health care. Those who are less fortunate are destined to a life of inequality, poverty and despondency that by any moral standards is disgraceful in a country that has so much wealth, yet allocates most of it to military spending.


Let’s not be afraid to say the truth. A country that was established by the genocidal treatment of its First People and built from the ground up by the hands of black slaves forcibly brought here from Africa, should be a country that forevermore pledges to pay its moral debt to humanity by helping those who are in need of a better life. The white man should look to his fellow black citizens with nothing less than gratitude and compassion. And yet we have just to look at the quality of life for most African Americans to know that this debt is far from being paid.


A true patriot should develop at least some of this basic social, cultural and political understanding of their country’s history. Maybe then, in the place of contempt and entitlement, there can emerge a space in the heart for empathy and respect for their fellow man. And maybe then the poison of colonial aggression that runs in their veins can be replaced by a noble desire to atone and make tangible reparations.


That’s how America can begin to be great.

Figured it was relevant in two ways...


1. We were just discussing how America is, "the greatest country in the world", so here is someone with experience both from fleeing the Middle East, spending alot of time in Europe and living in America saying that's not the case. I know the raw numbers that prove that statement being wrong didn't sway some people, and I don't know why first hand accounts would change your opinion if reality doesn't, but why not try.


2. Does an Iranian-American count as having white guilt? Because she fucking nails it that white people SHOULD have guilt, and she is neither the oppressed nor the oppressor in this equation, but a third party looking in.

When the oppressed, the oppressor, and neutrals all say that white people should have guilt about their actions that continue to this day... perhaps it's the homogeneous group that stands the most to lose from it being fixed who are in the wrong. And maybe that's why they have to scream the loudest about why racism isn't as bad as it is... because if that racism is fixed, suddenly one of their only advantages in life is (in their mind) taken away.

Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 12, 2018, 07:51:28 PM
The Persians have been mean at times, and they are a split off the Indo-European tree, so basically E-white instead of W-white.  Back in the day, in the early Persian Empire time, Greece was the shit hole ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fdJNjF0lcY

Did you know that after the battle of Salamis, Themistocles defected to Persia, thanks to Greek ingratitude and jealousy?

Persians are fondly remembered in the Book of Esther.  Got Purim?
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: pr126 on January 13, 2018, 01:58:47 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJdumFFPLqA
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 13, 2018, 05:20:05 AM
Who can forget which shithole presidential candidate stole reconstruction money from Haiti?  All Democrats.

The all people are equal, all genders are equal, all ethnicities are equal, all languages are equal, all nations are equal ...
those people are French revolutionaries.  Put them in a time machine, send them to Paris 1792, let Robespierre deal with them.

The French revolutionaries even locked up Thomas Paine, writer of Common Sense (American Revolution) and The Right of Man (French Revolution).  Initially Lafayette and Paine were supporters, but the Jacobins destroyed that moderate support, and their revolution.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: SGOS on January 13, 2018, 11:45:36 AM
Greatest nation is a propaganda term.  If you use total wealth as the metric, maybe, although we are fast losing that edge.  If you use total wealth as the metric, you also might be a bit shortsighted since most of that wealth is in the hands of a tiny minority who are busy making sure that others pay the tab to protect that wealth in their behalf. 

There are a lot of ways to measure greatness, and if you develop a score measured on a composite of those other ways, well, then the US is not that great.  Even measuring military strength is kind of iffy.  Our armed forces are formidable indeed, but we lose a lot of wars against much weaker countries.  And then there is a political system that disregards the well being of most of its own citizens.  This is where I think we tend to show how NOT great we actually are.  I suppose to other countries, this may not count against us as much, because there are so many other issues where we fail that affect foreign nations.  But "Greatest" is mostly a feel good term used to color the actual reality, something we would desperately like to believe so that we can feel better while we slide further down this imaginary mountain of greatness.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 13, 2018, 01:13:51 PM
We beat Lichtenstein!  Go USA, USA!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7L7WLFBYR4
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Shiranu on January 13, 2018, 07:19:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJdumFFPLqA

His entire premise is wrong from the beginning though; it's not that he is calling those countries shitholes (let's face it, they are)... it's that he is saying, "Ew, why are we letting those people in? Those people from those shitholes! We don't want refugees, the poor here... we want rich white people, like those in Norway!".

This is the problem with basically every video you post... they go on the tangents about this or that, but they completely miss the point time and time again, and then pat themselves on their smug backs for how superiour they are for... what, defending racism? Bigotry?

When your not lying, or completely missing the point, it's changing the topic completely. Yes, the United States is better than Haiti. Yes, Norway is better than Haiti. That doesn't mean jack shit though in the conversation of, "Is Trump in the wrong for saying we shouldn't want people who are looking to make a better life, and instead only want rich people to enter our country.".

The United States, to Norway and most of Europe, is a shithole. When my ancestors came here, Italy, the Middle East and England were shitholes. When the overwhelming majority of immigrants come here, it's because their countries are shitholes. That's kinda America's thing... the poor, the oppressed, the tired and hungry come here to make a better life for themselves. We aren't a country of the rich, we are a country of the poor, of victims, trying to start again from nothing and work their way to the top. That is the American Dream, but there has always been  racists and xenophobes like Trump who want to piss on that and make it harder and harder for everyone else to achieve what they or their ancestors did.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: baronvonrort on January 13, 2018, 07:24:59 PM
The lefties have their organic 100% cotton panties in a twist over this shithole comment.

Is there any video or audio evidence he said this or do we take the word of some dick from the DemocRats?



Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: baronvonrort on January 13, 2018, 07:26:53 PM
Is this an example of a shithole?



Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on January 13, 2018, 07:30:12 PM
If the US were really the greatest country in the world, then why isn't the US attracting expatriates in droves from every country in the world? If we're the best, then everyone would rather live here than in their own country, right?

But the only countries that we get a lot of people from are from the shitholes. Yeah, that means we're better than those shitholes, but look at where we stop getting a lot of expatriates to see where we really fare in the global pecking order.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Munch on January 13, 2018, 08:04:00 PM
(https://media.tenor.com/images/9d37db1715023189e13881ee0e7eec61/tenor.gif)

His entire premise is wrong from the beginning though; it's not that he is calling those countries shitholes (let's face it, they are)... it's that he is saying, "Ew, why are we letting those people in? Those people from those shitholes! We don't want refugees, the poor here... we want rich white people, like those in Norway!".

Well given your track record of saying he's wrong about every video Paul Joseph Watson makes, i'd bet you'd automatically think that before even watching it, so thats pretty moot.
Yet those countries Are shitholes, you yourself said it, which he said too, but he's wrong about that and your right? Hmm

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This is the problem with basically every video you post... they go on the tangents about this or that, but they completely miss the point time and time again, and then pat themselves on their smug backs for how superiour they are for... what, defending racism? Bigotry?

There was no defending racism, despite your belief in this, the video made a point that trump was right that the place was a shithole.

Getting a feel for what trump said, lets say you were an employer, you have a successful business and need the best people to work for you to increase profits. Would you A: hire someone with an education, experience and steady attitude, or B: hire someone with a lack of education, possible criminal background, and bad attitude?
Hey, if you can stereotype all of america into one thought bubble, dunno why trump can't do the same for other countries, it works both ways after all.

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When your not lying, or completely missing the point, it's changing the topic completely. Yes, the United States is better than Haiti. Yes, Norway is better than Haiti. That doesn't mean jack shit though in the conversation of, "Is Trump in the wrong for saying we shouldn't want people who are looking to make a better life, and instead only want rich people to enter our country.".

Way it seems now, your convinced to this point anything PR says is a lie since its conflicts with your own beliefs.
And honestly, do you think trump gives a shit at this point about hurting someones feelings? Your part of a demographic that hates everything he does, and yet when he shows the fact of what he is, you seem surprised by it?

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The United States, to Norway and most of Europe, is a shithole. When my ancestors came here, Italy, the Middle East and England were shitholes. When the overwhelming majority of immigrants come here, it's because their countries are shitholes. That's kinda America's thing... the poor, the oppressed, the tired and hungry come here to make a better life for themselves. We aren't a country of the rich, we are a country of the poor, of victims, trying to start again from nothing and work their way to the top. That is the American Dream, but there has always been  racists and xenophobes like Trump who want to piss on that and make it harder and harder for everyone else to achieve what they or their ancestors did.

The united states can have some bad places in it, but your now projecting your own hatred for the land you live in. Europe more then likely doesn't consider america a shithole, because we have the same resources, capital and means in these countries as america has, so why would anyone here think worse about america. Seriously, your just projecting at this point.
And now your playing the victim card as your sat here on your pc, laptop or phone, talking about how poor you are, oh you poor dear.

maybe you would take a page for george takei, who actually did move to america from where he and his family lived, he was in a camp at that time in america's history, but he has said many times that he loves the land he lives in now. You didn't travel to america, you were born there, so don't give us this crap like you've suffered.

Trump might be an asshole, he might be racist, but if you took a moment, you'd realize nothing he does will matter in the long run, and plus since you hate america so much anyway, why would it bother you if he makes a mess of it even more?

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/XVd6psNFsNbTG/giphy-downsized.gif)

now, I'm gonna go watch tumblr porn, the only thing that site's good for.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 13, 2018, 08:57:48 PM
If the US were really the greatest country in the world, then why isn't the US attracting expatriates in droves from every country in the world? If we're the best, then everyone would rather live here than in their own country, right?

But the only countries that we get a lot of people from are from the shitholes. Yeah, that means we're better than those shitholes, but look at where we stop getting a lot of expatriates to see where we really fare in the global pecking order.

The US is a big international tax evasion center, like some other places.  That will attract upper class folks, at least to park their assets here.  Historically we have taken in the dregs of every society, to keep the population up, and the cost of labor low.  Thanks to international cheap transport and electronic communication, in many cases, it is no longer necessary to bring cheap labor here ... we can keep them over there.

The perfect is the enemy of the real.  No place is perfect, so compare any place, even Norway, to perfection, and it won't fly.  Unless of course you are making a dishonest comparison.  When young, I would have loved to live outside the US, because of the adventure of it, not because I hate the US, or love Portugal (for example) more.  But phobia does as phobia is.  Inverse xenophobia anyway.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: GrinningYMIR on January 13, 2018, 10:11:13 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-jzSQ3n5Um4
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Shiranu on January 14, 2018, 07:21:53 AM
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Well given your track record of saying he's wrong about every video Paul Joseph Watson makes, i'd bet you'd automatically think that before even watching it, so thats pretty moot.

I've never watched any of his videos before this one (maybe one, I try to forget them after watching them), so I don't know if every video that guy makes is wrong. But of the one or two I have watched, he was literally either wrong or the point completely went over his head.

If someone posted videos consistently from someone who insisted the world was flat or that evolution is a lie, and everyone jumped on him for posting that type of stupid bullshit, would you be defending that person as well saying, "Well... but you just assume the guy in the video is wrong!"?

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There was no defending racism, despite your belief in this, the video made a point that trump was right that the place was a shithole.

Except that wasn't Trump's point. I even agree those places are shitholes, but that's not what Trump said. He said we don't need people from those places, that it's so terrible that those type of people are coming into the country. Even if it's not racist (though he has already proven himself time and time again to be a racist, so it most likely was), it is certainly xenophobic and elitist.

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Getting a feel for what trump said, lets say you were an employer, you have a successful business and need the best people to work for you to increase profits. Would you A: hire someone with an education, experience and steady attitude, or B: hire someone with a lack of education, possible criminal background, and bad attitude?

So all Haitians, El Salvadorians and Africans are stupid, inexperienced and don't have a steady attitude, and Norwegians are all geniuses, experienced and well behaved? Or the ratio is at least significantly skewed that way that we should assume that is the case?

I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one, Trebec.

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Way it seems now, your convinced to this point anything PR says is a lie since its conflicts with your own beliefs.

Have you heard the story of the boy who cried wolf? When you literally lie post after post after post (No-go zones, that Muslims are going to be the majority in 20-some years, that all Muslims are silently rooting on terrorists and ISIS, that Musims don't condemn terrorism, that FGM is an Islamic thing instead of a regional thing, "America is the greatest country in the world!", liberals eat babies and are out to destroy Western civilization,  etc. etc. etc.), then yes... people will automatically assume you are a liar.

It sucks, but if you don't want to be assumed to be a liar... you shouldn't lie through your teeth time and time again. That as nothing to do with me being a liberal; there are people I agree with who lie through their teeth all the time that I don't take seriously. Huffington post, for example, is arguably on my side and shares very similar beliefs... I don't trust 90% of what they say though, because they exaggerate and just straight up lie like pr does.

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And honestly, do you think trump gives a shit at this point about hurting someones feelings? Your part of a demographic that hates everything he does, and yet when he shows the fact of what he is, you seem surprised by it?

No, I am part of a demographic that hates mostly everything he does, and yet when he shows the fact of what he is, seem surprised there are morons who actually defend his behaviour.

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The united states can have some bad places in it, but your now projecting your own hatred for the land you live in.

Oh for fucks sake, what is with you mother fuckers and this stupid ass bullshit that having problems with your country means you hate it?

Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Shiranu on January 14, 2018, 08:29:49 AM
Let me put it one different way... literally everything you said about Haiti, El Salvador and the African countries is plug-and-play applicable to my ancestors.

The English ancestry were essentially rural peasants with no education... should they not have been allowed to immigrate in?
The Scottish ancestry were inexperienced with modern technology... should they have not been allowed to immigrate in?
The Southern Italians were "hotheaded, criminals who followed a regressive religion" and thus were possibly criminals and had bad attitudes... should they have not been allowed to immigrate in?

When Trump says this shit about Haitians, Africans, Muslims, whoever... he is literally parroting the exact same shit that my ancestors had to go through; shit that lead to laws that prohibited us from having jobs, from getting out of poverty, from having the freedom to live where we want or marry who we wanted to. It led to a culture that viewed my ancestors as just a bunch of criminals and thugs, of being religious radicals, when all we wanted to do was live the American Dream.

So no, it doesn't mean I hate America... it means I want America to be a better place than what my ancestors came to. I actually find it rather sad that a bunch of Europeans who know shit-all about America want to tell someone who wants to see the country improve rather than regress that he hates America.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on January 14, 2018, 08:45:27 PM
^ This. I take it as a given that the most truly patriotic thing I can do for America is to criticize it, because it is by critique that one improves. I want to see America become the America it could be. And I don't want to be told by a bunch of foreigners that I should be satisfied and proud of America as it is, as if you were the very Kings that we revolted against so that we could be masters of our own destinies. I don't want to be told that I should suck it up by the very people who benefit most in seeing us fall for that attitude.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Baruch on January 15, 2018, 02:56:35 AM
Dissatisfaction with the status quo, is normal for 20-30 age group.  They should be passionate about ideals that better the status quo.  Younger people are children.  Older people are too entrained to the System.  Not that every ideal is good (they mostly fail the smell test) ... but that is the only way good change happens.  Otherwise entropic change happens, and that isn't so good.

Yes, constructive criticism, would mean actual political involvement, not just backbiting.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Gilgamesh on January 16, 2018, 08:40:17 PM
"Let’s not be afraid to say the truth. A country that was established by the genocidal treatment of its First People and built from the ground up by the hands of black slaves forcibly brought here from Africa"
Sounds like prettymuch every country ever. Sounds like prettymuch any tribe meeting any other tribe ever on this earth, including the many tribes that existed in the Americas when they interacted with eachother, long before and up until the white man ever showed up. It wasn't sunshine and daisies. It meant death almost every time they met. So no, it's not a white people thing. It's a fucking human thing. It's just that whites created the greatest culture to ever exist - the western tradition - and so it permeated the earth - and so now everybody just pretends whites are the only ones that ever did it, because whites did it the best, I guess.

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"The white man should look to his fellow black citizens with nothing less than gratitude and compassion. And yet we have just to look at the quality of life for most African Americans to know that this debt is far from being paid."
Why? Many blacks are born into a way better socio-economic class than I. And certainly I never made a slave of any black person. What the fuck do I have to be guilty of? Original (white) sin? Since some people that looked like me did something bad once? Nah I don't want your dogma, bud.

btw there's slaves in africa right now. And systematic slaughtering of whites. Guess blacks owe me reparations now.


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2. Does an Iranian-American count as having white guilt? Because she fucking nails it that white people SHOULD have guilt,
Fuck off and don't speak on my beautiful race, goy-mutt =]

Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 09:38:53 PM
Sounds like prettymuch every country ever. Sounds like prettymuch any tribe meeting any other tribe ever on this earth, including the many tribes that existed in the Americas when they interacted with eachother, long before and up until the white man ever showed up. It wasn't sunshine and daisies. It meant death almost every time they met. So no, it's not a white people thing. It's a fucking human thing. It's just that whites created the greatest culture to ever exist - the western tradition - and so it permeated the earth - and so now everybody just pretends whites are the only ones that ever did it, because whites did it the best, I guess.
Why? Many blacks are born into a way better socio-economic class than I. And certainly I never made a slave of any black person. What the fuck do I have to be guilty of? Original (white) sin? Since some people that looked like me did something bad once? Nah I don't want your dogma, bud.

btw there's slaves in africa right now. And systematic slaughtering of whites. Guess blacks owe me reparations now.
Most of this is quite accurate, but you've, eh, glossed over a handful of essential points.

1) Human thought and behaviour are correlated with sunlight exposure. In particular, those exposed to less sunlight tend to make fewer errors, be more cautious, and perform better on general tests (particularly cognitive ones).

2) Human thought and behaviour are correlated with parasite load. In particular, those with less risk of parasitic infection are more "open to experience"--meaning more creative, more exploratory behaviour, and so on.

...

I could list quite a few more points, but the gist is that there's plenty of reason to believe white success may primarily have been thanks to Europe being a very choice plot of land, rather than any racial supremacy.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Gilgamesh on January 16, 2018, 09:50:01 PM
Most of this is quite accurate, but you've, eh, glossed over a handful of essential points.

1) Human thought and behaviour are correlated with sunlight exposure. In particular, those exposed to less sunlight tend to make fewer errors, be more cautious, and perform better on general tests (particularly cognitive ones).

2) Human thought and behaviour are correlated with parasite load. In particular, those with less risk of parasitic infection are more "open to experience"--meaning more creative, more exploratory behaviour, and so on.

...

I could list quite a few more points, but the gist is that there's plenty of reason to believe white success may primarily have been thanks to Europe being a very choice plot of land, rather than any racial supremacy.

Would you not conclude, then, that the tribes inhabiting this choice plot of land, being subjected to natural selection in it, would come to have certain qualities to their 'race'?

Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 10:03:37 PM
Would you not conclude, then, that the tribes inhabiting this choice plot of land, being subjected to natural selection in it, would come to have certain qualities to their 'race'?
Obviously. I'm not sure that applies to the sunlight effects, but on the point of exploration and creativeness, it stands to reason that being consistently free from some of the primary risks those entail would shift selection in favour of a higher level.

Of course, those qualities are also assocated with less ethnocentrism. or in other words a lower tendency to say things like "my beautiful race."
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Gilgamesh on January 16, 2018, 10:06:09 PM
Obviously. I'm not sure that applies to the sunlight effects, but on the point of exploration and creativeness, it stands to reason that being consistently free from some of the primary risks those entail would shift selection in favour of a higher level.

Of course, those qualities are also assocated with less ethnocentrism. or in other words a lower tendency to say things like "my beautiful race."

I see.

For the record, the "my beautiful race" was a joke. I feel no sense of endearment towards backwater white rednecks, for example. You'll come to learn that shiranu is a lefty regressive. Half of the thoughts in his dull head regard race - and every time these thoughts are about the white race in particular, they're not nice. So, in jest, I play the white oppressor he wants all whites to be.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 10:10:06 PM
I see.

For the record, the "my beautiful race" was a joke. I feel no sense of endearment towards backwater white rednecks, for example.
I know. I'm trying to be playful.

And also demonstrate that I don't particularly side with racism. Even if you proved some particular ethnic group is five times more likely to have such-and-such negative quality, treating the whole "race" as guilty and sparing other entire "races" which also have that quality in their own amounts would be committing the same error as, say, hating all men because some of them commit rape.

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You'll come to learn that shiranu is a lefty regressive.
I noticed this the moment I saw a post taking "racism against Muslims" seriously.

Plenty of people are racist against certain ~brown people~ because they associate them with Islam. This has to do with them operating off lazy stereotypes. However, in actuality, Islam is (and Muslims are) just bad. That's not racism... or mistaken. Or really debatable.
Title: Re: Azam Ali, Iranian-American Singer, on Trump's "Shithole" Remark
Post by: Gilgamesh on January 16, 2018, 10:47:39 PM
His entire premise is wrong from the beginning though; it's not that he is calling those countries shitholes (let's face it, they are)... it's that he is saying, "Ew, why are we letting those people in? Those people from those shitholes! We don't want refugees, the poor here... we want rich white people, like those in Norway!".


Trump wants refugees that have skills, or want to work - not 30-year-olds with the intelligence of an american 4-year-old.

 He's not saying, "ew, I don't want them because I'm an old xenophobic bastard." He's saying, "I don't want people who have 0 skills and 0 intent to be productive - especially when there's tons of people who are both those things competing to get in here." He's bemoaning the fact that you're letting in refugees who are so uneducated that they'd be considered clinically retarded, rather than would-be refugees who have a lot to contribute.