Atheistforums

Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Topic started by: trdsf on January 09, 2018, 11:38:24 AM

Title: On Miracles
Post by: trdsf on January 09, 2018, 11:38:24 AM
I was listening to Talk Heathens on YouTube and the conversation turned to the selective nature of 'miracles' attributed to Jesus in the  Bible, and the comment was made that if he'd just healed everybody in the world, boom, no debate anymore.

And it got me to thinking -- let's say for the sake of argument that today at noon, boom, every blind person on the planet was healed, just like that, no warning,

How long before the religious wars start because everyone thinks it was their god that performed the miracle?  Weeks?  Days?  Hours?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 09, 2018, 12:24:59 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I was listening to Talk Heathens on YouTube and the conversation turned to the selective nature of 'miracles' attributed to Jesus in the  Bible, and the comment was made that if he'd just healed everybody in the world, boom, no debate anymore.

And it got me to thinking -- let's say for the sake of argument that today at noon, boom, every blind person on the planet was healed, just like that, no warning,

How long before the religious wars start because everyone thinks it was their god that performed the miracle?  Weeks?  Days?  Hours?

Wrong protagonists.  The doctors who argue who gets to charge us for the healing ;-)

Yes, clearly Jesus is mythical, because of obvious plot failures in the narrative.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Mike Cl on January 09, 2018, 12:45:54 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I was listening to Talk Heathens on YouTube and the conversation turned to the selective nature of 'miracles' attributed to Jesus in the  Bible, and the comment was made that if he'd just healed everybody in the world, boom, no debate anymore.

And it got me to thinking -- let's say for the sake of argument that today at noon, boom, every blind person on the planet was healed, just like that, no warning,

How long before the religious wars start because everyone thinks it was their god that performed the miracle?  Weeks?  Days?  Hours?
This thought has crossed my mind from time to time.  Why did god only issue his 'word' in one language and in one spot?  Has a bible turned up in say, the Americas dating to that time period?  Or Asia or Europe--or anywhere else?  And why was Jesus, the son of god, not paraded around any other part of the world?  God did not have enough semen in impregnate more than one woman?  Why not Jesus' all over the world teaching the same lessons and healing the sick in that part of the world?  And why couldn't god have written and distributed the same bible in all the languages of the world at that time and in material that would not rot away?  And if this god were perfect and all knowing, why would a bible be needed in the first place? 
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: GSOgymrat on January 09, 2018, 01:10:37 PM
Miracles or not, people's locus of control can be telling. When good things happen, who is responsible? You? Your family? Society? God? How about when things go horribly wrong? I've noticed with some religious people when good things happen it is by the grace of God but when bad things happen it is evil within society or oneself.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Blackleaf on January 09, 2018, 11:28:22 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
This thought has crossed my mind from time to time.  Why did god only issue his 'word' in one language and in one spot?  Has a bible turned up in say, the Americas dating to that time period?  Or Asia or Europe--or anywhere else?  And why was Jesus, the son of god, not paraded around any other part of the world?  God did not have enough semen in impregnate more than one woman?  Why not Jesus' all over the world teaching the same lessons and healing the sick in that part of the world?  And why couldn't god have written and distributed the same bible in all the languages of the world at that time and in material that would not rot away?  And if this god were perfect and all knowing, why would a bible be needed in the first place?

If I'm not mistaken, the Mormons believe that the Aztecs were visited by Jesus before white men showed up. The claim is completely baseless in fact, of course, but that doesn't stop people from rewriting history to their benefit.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 09, 2018, 11:38:36 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If I'm not mistaken, the Mormons believe that the Aztecs were visited by Jesus before white men showed up. The claim is completely baseless in fact, of course, but that doesn't stop people from rewriting history to their benefit.

There was a lot of weird historiography in the 19th century, like Lemuria ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemuria_(continent)

This was before continental drift was understood.  Atlantis is the oldest fictional geography in the West.  Hinduism has a whole mythological geography.

It may be that some Europeans accidentally came to N America before even Leif Ericsson ... and Japanese may have accidentally came to S America.

Mormonism is its own crazy ... think of Fremin on Arakis.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Jason78 on January 10, 2018, 01:21:14 AM
If miracles aren't real, then how do you explain how magnets work?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 10, 2018, 03:28:52 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If miracles aren't real, then how do you explain how magnets work?

Thales ... as viewed by Aristotle ...

"The relevant text from Aristotle reads: 'Thales, too, to judge from what is recorded of his views, seems to suppose that the soul is in a sense the cause of movement, since he says that a stone [magnet, or lodestone] has a soul because it causes movement to iron' (De An. 405 a20-22); 'Some think that the soul pervades the whole universe, whence perhaps came Thales's view that everything is full of gods' (De An. 411 a7-8)."

Atheists (in the Greek sense) are irreligious and materialist.  Most contemporary Greeks dismissed them, oppressed them or even executed them.  Don't diss Homer if you know what is good for you.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Sal1981 on January 10, 2018, 03:41:59 AM
If, somehow, every blind person in the world suddenly could see, my first thought would be aliens.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on January 10, 2018, 04:12:11 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If, somehow, every blind person in the world suddenly could see, my first thought would be aliens.

I would always suspect technology for a cause over a deity.  The former is much more likely.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: trdsf on January 10, 2018, 09:04:53 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If, somehow, every blind person in the world suddenly could see, my first thought would be aliens.
As would I, but if they just did it and never actually made contact to take credit for it, the vast majority of this planet would take it as a miracle from their particular version of god with absolutely no reason that they should attribute it that way, other than that's how they pre-define miraculous-looking things.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on January 10, 2018, 09:27:44 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
As would I, but if they just did it and never actually made contact to take credit for it, the vast majority of this planet would take it as a miracle from their particular version of god with absolutely no reason that they should attribute it that way, other than that's how they pre-define miraculous-looking things.

Miracles don't exist.  But advanced technology might.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: aitm on January 10, 2018, 09:31:16 AM
I can't even get to miracles myself. I still can't get past, "Ima make me a vast universe and stuff it full of all kinds of creatures that in order to live must eat each other."

Da fuck man?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on January 10, 2018, 11:05:40 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I can't even get to miracles myself. I still can't get past, "Ima make me a vast universe and stuff it full of all kinds of creatures that in order to live must eat each other."

Da fuck man?

By all means yes, choose a place on the food chain you won't eat under.  That is the bottom of the food chain to you.  An amoeba looks at the world differently.  So do krill.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: SGOS on January 10, 2018, 11:27:38 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If miracles aren't real, then how do you explain how magnets work?
I remember back when I was very little and given some tiny plastic dogs that had magnets glued to their feet.  Scottish Terriers, I believe they were.  One was black and one was white, but I digress.  If you snuck one of the dogs up behind the other, one would spin around and face the other dog and attach itself quite strongly.  I knew it was the magnets that made it happen, but I remember puzzling for what seemed like years over why a special metal would be attracted to itself so that one end of the magnet attracted while the other end would repel.  Magnets aren't alive, but why would an inert lifeless metal have a force like that?  I didn't associate it with a miracle, but I really wondered why it could be.  I can now explain partially what causes magnetism, but yet I still can't explain the cause of the cause.  It must be...
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on January 10, 2018, 11:35:12 AM
God, obviously...  He is the cause of everything we don't understand RIGHT NOW, right?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: trdsf on January 10, 2018, 12:45:53 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Miracles don't exist.  But advanced technology might.
True, and true, and true.  But while you'd have a small rationalist community going "Huh, I wonder how that happened" and researchers all over the globe giving themselves fits trying to figure out the answer to that, you have many billions immediately assuming it was done by Jesus/YHWH/Allah/Krishna/etc. etc. etc.

And I bet you the first global casualty would be Jerusalem as millions crowd in there on pilgrimage from the Judeo-Christo-Islamic family of religions.  I wouldn't even give it a day before the mobs were openly warring in the streets, or a week before someone decided that their religion's claim would be stronger if the opposing Dome of the Rock/Wailing Wall/Church of the Holy Sepulchre didn't exist anymore and boom.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 10, 2018, 01:26:52 PM
According to Ambrose Bierce, a miracle is:

MIRACLE, n. An act or event out of the order of nature and unaccountable, as beating a normal hand of four kings and an ace with four aces and a king.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Blackleaf on January 10, 2018, 01:35:56 PM
If a god suddenly performed a miracle for all of the world to see, my first thought would be, "Where the FUCK have you been?" If a god exists, he's the first absent father in history.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 10, 2018, 01:45:24 PM
Yeah, and he pays no child support...
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on January 10, 2018, 01:48:02 PM
My dad had that niggling thought that there was "something out there"... 
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 10, 2018, 01:57:42 PM
There's something out there alright, and this is it:




(http://abcdvdz.com/image/data/14%20sept/something8fn8.jpg)
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on January 10, 2018, 02:01:08 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There's something out there alright, and this is it:

(http://abcdvdz.com/image/data/14%20sept/something8fn8.jpg)

What movie is THAT mess from?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 10, 2018, 02:03:57 PM
No idea. Pretty ugly though, huh? Maybe that's what God looks like? It's how I often picture the damned thing.






Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on January 10, 2018, 02:06:06 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
No idea. Pretty ugly though, huh? Maybe that's what God looks like? It's how I often picture the damned thing.

I don't picture a deity.  It has to exist to be seen.  And I don't...
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 10, 2018, 02:10:25 PM
OK, it seems to be from a mini-series called, appropriately enough, Something is Out There (http://abcdvdz.com/something-is-out-there-dvd).
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 10, 2018, 02:14:19 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
According to Ambrose Bierce, a miracle is:

MIRACLE, n. An act or event out of the order of nature and unaccountable, as beating a normal hand of four kings and an ace with four aces and a king.

Ambrose, Ambrose ... quite the cynical wit.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 10, 2018, 02:16:07 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
No idea. Pretty ugly though, huh? Maybe that's what God looks like? It's how I often picture the damned thing.

G-d isn't inhuman, just more than human.  But demons see things your way.  They project their own hideousness onto others.  Just like in politics.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 10, 2018, 02:17:14 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
OK, it seems to be from a mini-series called, appropriately enough, Something is Out There (http://abcdvdz.com/something-is-out-there-dvd).

Yeah, scifi is so real.  How are things on the Nautilus, Capt Nemo?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 10, 2018, 02:19:26 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I remember back when I was very little and given some tiny plastic dogs that had magnets glued to their feet.  Scottish Terriers, I believe they were.  One was black and one was white, but I digress.  If you snuck one of the dogs up behind the other, one would spin around and face the other dog and attach itself quite strongly.  I knew it was the magnets that made it happen, but I remember puzzling for what seemed like years over why a special metal would be attracted to itself so that one end of the magnet attracted while the other end would repel.  Magnets aren't alive, but why would an inert lifeless metal have a force like that?  I didn't associate it with a miracle, but I really wondered why it could be.  I can now explain partially what causes magnetism, but yet I still can't explain the cause of the cause.  It must be...

You aren't an ancient Greek either, let alone Thales.  No, you can't explain anything ... you can assume an electron with a magnetic moment ... and that is something consistent with the Dirac equation.  But nobody understands quantum mechanics, so no, nobody understands the electron, or magnetic fields formed by electrons.  Everyone here is just like that guy with the 200+ IQ ... full of jargon, that has no real meaning.  Idiot savants, just like a talking ape would be.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Blackleaf on January 10, 2018, 02:26:06 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
G-d isn't inhuman, just more than human.  But demons see things your way.  They project their own hideousness onto others.  Just like in politics.

If we're all demigods in your view, who are the demons?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 10, 2018, 02:47:28 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If we're all demigods in your view, who are the demons?

Its a matter of attitude.  At extremes some people are angelic, others are demonic.  Zoroastrianism is wrong ... so is what the Abrahamic religions borrowed from Zoroastrianism.  The Cold War for instance, is institutionalized Zoroastrianism, as were the Crusades and the Jihad.  If you divide people in general, in two, you are also dividing your own self in two.  Schizo.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: trdsf on January 12, 2018, 12:16:18 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If we're all demigods in your view, who are the demons?
I know I'm not a god of any sort.  If I were, things would be run a damn sight better in this universe.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 12, 2018, 12:35:08 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I know I'm not a god of any sort.  If I were, things would be run a damn sight better in this universe.

Demigods can only put their BVDs on two legs at a time, not their pants ;-)

If you want things to be better, run for office, and clean up the DNC or RNC.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Simon Moon on January 15, 2018, 09:01:16 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
This thought has crossed my mind from time to time.  Why did god only issue his 'word' in one language and in one spot?  Has a bible turned up in say, the Americas dating to that time period?  Or Asia or Europe--or anywhere else?  And why was Jesus, the son of god, not paraded around any other part of the world?  God did not have enough semen in impregnate more than one woman?  Why not Jesus' all over the world teaching the same lessons and healing the sick in that part of the world?  And why couldn't god have written and distributed the same bible in all the languages of the world at that time and in material that would not rot away?  And if this god were perfect and all knowing, why would a bible be needed in the first place? 



This great video pretty much illustrate your post.

Well worth watching.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWZifSXlzlI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWZifSXlzlI)


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lWZifSXlzlI
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: GSOgymrat on January 15, 2018, 09:13:40 PM
That quote was from Mike CL, not me. I was totally confused because I couldn't remember typing that!
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Simon Moon on January 15, 2018, 09:25:13 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That quote was from Mike CL, not me. I was totally confused because I couldn't remember typing that!

Corrected!
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Mike Cl on January 15, 2018, 09:26:53 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


This great video pretty much illustrate your post.

Well worth watching.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWZifSXlzlI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWZifSXlzlI)


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lWZifSXlzlI
Yes, Simon, that is a good illustration of my point.  I had not see that before.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 15, 2018, 10:10:08 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Corrected!

I have editing errors too, where I type stuff inside the Quotes, instead of after them.  This makes who said what, unclear.

DarkMatters is good, has been posted here many times before.  The #4 on this series, just before the posted one, is on Lucifer.  I watched that one just now, too.

These show up the conundrums of theology.  Which needs to be done, because theologians are just geeks who don't really get religion in the first place.  They impress the ignorant and illiterate.  Most people don't in fact get religion, they simply go thru the motions, like they do with most things in their lives.  Ritual/habit is how we get thru most things.

If one takes the "objective" aka "external" aka "material" view ... to the exclusion of the "subjective" aka "internal" aka "spiritual" view ... then Camus is right ... the only important question is suicide, individual and social.  Reductionism is its own absurdity.  In pre-modern societies, they didn't have this distraction ... and they dismissed the geeks.

They knew they were people, who lived among other people.  That they were alive, for awhile, and had to get on with daily life, not speculate on string theory.  As Socrates pointed out, the only relevant study for humans isn't Thales' TOE (which was all wet), it is how to be a better human.  I had counseling once, about not being a Vulcan, about just being human.  It was good advice.

I could take many pages, to personally diss everything about the Bible, everything others say in its favor, and everything other say against it.  But that would be a waste of my time and yours.  The video is good as far as it goes, but like any such discussion, it lies, by what it leaves out.  Inevitably, things have to be left out, invalidating the argument.

This stuff is just Nietzsche in action ... obsessing over a book you don't like.  Though I do like Nietzsche's program of getting back to Greek paganism.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 11:06:19 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If a god suddenly performed a miracle for all of the world to see, my first thought would be,
"According to the Problem of Evil, you're either deeply incompetent or actively malicious. How do we kill you?"

?

Or maybe that's just me.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: SGOS on January 16, 2018, 11:34:30 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"According to the Problem of Evil, you're either deeply incompetent or actively malicious. How do we kill you?"
There are problems with killing God, not the least of which is that it is impossible to know if he is alive or dead at any given moment.  This is why we have the Heisenberg Principle.  There are two reasons we talk about the Heisenberg Principle.  First, it's fun to say, "Heisenberg Principle" in a sentence when you want people to think you know what you are talking about.  Second, we seldom know what we are talking about, which is the main reason for the Heisenberg Principle to begin with.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 11:40:17 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There are problems with killing God, not the least of which is that it is impossible to know if he is alive or dead at any given moment.  This is why we have the Heisenberg Principle.
Ah, but isn't God's current state of vitality/mortality observed the moment he reveals himself to take credit for the miracle?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: SGOS on January 16, 2018, 11:49:32 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Ah, but isn't God's current state of vitality/mortality observed the moment he reveals himself to take credit for the miracle?
This is only true to the person witnessing the miracle.  But he doesn't know what he's talking about, can't demonstrate it to anyone else in his peer group, and so they have to take it on his authority.  Heisenberg isn't buying it.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 11:50:56 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
This is only true to the person witnessing the miracle.  But he doesn't know what he's talking about, can't demonstrate it to anyone else except his peer group, and so they have to take it on his authority.  Heisenberg isn't buying it.
So what you're saying is, God doesn't reveal himself because if he did then he'd be observed and become a certain existence and thereby temporarily lose his immortality?

Hmm.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: SGOS on January 16, 2018, 11:52:09 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
So what you're saying is, God doesn't reveal himself because if he did then he'd be observed and become a certain existence and thereby temporarily lose his immortality?

Hmm.
Sure, why not?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 11:53:50 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Sure, why not?
Sounds like it could make a decent plot point in a sci-fi novel.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: SGOS on January 16, 2018, 12:21:45 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Sounds like it could make a decent plot point in a sci-fi novel.
Sometimes I think about a plot line in an imaginary book I might write.  Some guy would die and meet God, but God would be completely different than what everyone thinks and disappointed with the fact that no one understands him.  God would actually be a likeable entity in the book, but just unable to make himself known, because he is prevented by the confines of the reality that prevents him from being there except through mankind's imagination.  He wouldn't say it outright, but readers would understand his frustration and know that he would like to help if he could.  I'm not sure what else happens, but I imagine something good coming out of it, but I don't know what.  The dead guy probably wouldn't be able to help because he's dead, so how would this vital understanding of God be brought back to the people on Earth?

I don't think about this much.  There is more detail in the paragraph above than anything I've ever thought about before.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 12:26:35 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I don't think about this much.  There is more detail in the paragraph above than anything I've ever thought about before.
For years I've played around with a sort of metafiction wherein the many-worlds interpretation is true, and another universe has managed to link up with this one and make it into something of a personal playground. Actually, it turns out modern humans were very much based on the image of the beings in that universe, and that the technology they used to shape this universe can be used to, to some extent, alter reality to suit the collective will of humanity. This turns out to be the origin of a few miracles... and also inadvertently ends up creating two of the primary antagonists of the (potential) series, one created by the people of the other universe, and one created by humans.

I've thought about this a lot. This is actually less detailed than I usually go.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: trdsf on January 16, 2018, 12:59:25 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
For years I've played around with a sort of metafiction wherein the many-worlds interpretation is true, and another universe has managed to link up with this one and make it into something of a personal playground. Actually, it turns out modern humans were very much based on the image of the beings in that universe, and that the technology they used to shape this universe can be used to, to some extent, alter reality to suit the collective will of humanity. This turns out to be the origin of a few miracles... and also inadvertently ends up creating two of the primary antagonists of the (potential) series, one created by the people of the other universe, and one created by humans.

I've thought about this a lot. This is actually less detailed than I usually go.
Write it.  Even if it's just for your own amusement.  Otherwise it'll eat your brain.

In my own writing, I'm going to have a lot of fun with the plot point that meeting humans ultimately provided actual physical evidence in favor of the aliens' creation myth... you can imagine how well that goes down among believer humans, of course.  Heh.  Heh.  Heh.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 01:09:51 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Write it.  Even if it's just for your own amusement.  Otherwise it'll eat your brain.

In my own writing, I'm going to have a lot of fun with the plot point that meeting humans ultimately provided actual physical evidence in favor of the aliens' creation myth... you can imagine how well that goes down among believer humans, of course.  Heh.  Heh.  Heh.
One of the protagonists of mine is loosely based off David Hume.

He's generally the one in charge of the so-called godslaying business. This makes a lot of people very unhappy.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 16, 2018, 01:39:14 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
One of the protagonists of mine is loosely based off David Hume.

He's generally the one in charge of the so-called godslaying business. This makes a lot of people very unhappy.

David Hume was awesome at skepticism.  But don't go so far as to disbelieve that David Hume ever existed ;-)

Samuel Johnson would not only refute George Berkeley, but David Hume, by kicking that stone (in front of Boswell) ... "I refute him thus!".
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 16, 2018, 01:41:34 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Ah, but isn't God's current state of vitality/mortality observed the moment he reveals himself to take credit for the miracle?

G-d is physically more like the zero-point energy, where the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle is applied to energy-time.  As long as you don't look closely, one can get away with anything.  In philosophical terms, G-d is pure potentiality, not actuality.  And only what is actual, can exist ... so G-d cannot exist ... yet is a-causally connected to all of existence.

So what about the Big Bang?  Well you can create a universe, as long as it exists for a correspondingly short time.  Relativistically, relative to light (photons) the length of any temporal time is zero ... which allows you infinite free energy.  Things only are confusing relative to non-photonic phenomena.  Relative to photons ... it isn't that photons are blindingly fast, but that other matter is agonizingly slow.  Like watching a pot of water come to boil ... by watching (and this means you aren't photonic) ... it literally takes forever for one second to pass.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 01:51:03 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
David Hume was awesome at skepticism.  But don't go so far as to disbelieve that David Hume ever existed ;-)
Some people go so far as to doubt Shakespeare really existed... so, it wouldn't exactly be novel territory, would it?

I guess it says something that I have more respect for Hume than Shakespeare, though. "Nerd!"
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 16, 2018, 01:56:36 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Sounds like it could make a decent plot point in a sci-fi novel.
Well, there's this, which I read a couple of years ago:

Towing Jehovah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towing_Jehovah)
Quote
God is dead, and now God's two-mile-long cadaver is floating in the Atlantic Ocean, just off the coast of Africa. As a result, the archangel Raphael hires supertanker captain Anthony Van Horne to tow the cadaver into the Arctic, with the intention of having it be preserved by the cold.

It was quite an interesting read, actually.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 16, 2018, 02:02:06 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Some people go so far as to doubt Shakespeare really existed... so, it wouldn't exactly be novel territory, would it?

I guess it says something that I have more respect for Hume than Shakespeare, though. "Nerd!"

Well, you seem to be a geek of particularly refined type.  Virgin olive oil perhaps ... maybe not so virgin ;-)

Shakespeare may have existed, but it seems like some of the plays were ghost written by others.  He was more of a producer at times.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 16, 2018, 02:03:15 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
For years I've played around with a sort of metafiction wherein the many-worlds interpretation is true, and another universe has managed to link up with this one and make it into something of a personal playground. Actually, it turns out modern humans were very much based on the image of the beings in that universe, and that the technology they used to shape this universe can be used to, to some extent, alter reality to suit the collective will of humanity. This turns out to be the origin of a few miracles... and also inadvertently ends up creating two of the primary antagonists of the (potential) series, one created by the people of the other universe, and one created by humans.

I've thought about this a lot. This is actually less detailed than I usually go.
A couple of months back I read a book called The Long Earth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Earth), by Steven Baxter:

Quote
The "Long Earth" is a (possibly infinite) series of parallel worlds that are similar to Earth, which can be reached by using an inexpensive device called a "Stepper". The "close" worlds are almost identical to "our" Earth (referred to as "Datum Earth"), others differ in greater and greater details, but all share one similarity: on none are there, or have there ever been, Homo sapiens – although the same cannot be said of earlier hominid species, especially Homo habilis.

It's a fascinating look at the implications of the connection of all the parallel Earths.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 16, 2018, 02:04:25 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Well, there's this, which I read a couple of years ago:

Towing Jehovah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towing_Jehovah)
It was quite an interesting read, actually.

Borrowed from Kabbalah?  In one early form of Kabbalah, the body of G-d is imagined to the the Earth itself, or the universe itself.  We are like fleas or microbes on it.  Called Shiur Koma.

See, Unbeliever ... you can believe parallel universes, but G-d is too much for you ;-)
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 16, 2018, 02:07:20 PM
I don't know enough of kabbalah to make any claim of borrowing, but you could be right. You'd probably have to ask the author.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 16, 2018, 02:13:08 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I don't know enough of kabbalah to make any claim of borrowing, but you could be right. You'd probably have to ask the author.

Any good meme is worth stealing.  But you have to disguise where you borrowed it from.  This is called poetic license (to plagarize)
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: GSOgymrat on January 16, 2018, 02:48:54 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
A couple of months back I read a book called The Long Earth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Earth), by Steven Baxter:

It's a fascinating look at the implications of the connection of all the parallel Earths.

You're the third person who has recommended this book recently. Sounds like a good read.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 16, 2018, 02:50:39 PM
Very satisfying. I hope there's a sequel.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 02:52:12 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
A couple of months back I read a book called The Long Earth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Earth), by Steven Baxter...

It's a fascinating look at the implications of the connection of all the parallel Earths.
That does sound quite interesting. I might need to check it out myself...

Though, in my case, the many-worlds interpretation is present but really just used as a plot device. Unlike many stories, it doesn't end up being a major theme or plot element or anything.

I did have an idea for a side story which was supposed to take place in the universe they used as a testbed for the technology, but other than that, it all takes place on "our" Earth.

The major themes revolve more around transhumanism, political philosophy, metaphysical idealism, Taoism, and some Jungian character analysis here and there.

(As an aside, I'm not sure whether I should be happy or sad to see a Reimu and a Byakuren here, when one of my major characters was designed while listening to an orchestral arrangement of Septette for the Dead Princess... She is, of course, immortal. Not a vampire though.)
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 16, 2018, 03:04:34 PM
It would be nice if we could do our dangerous manufacturing in a different universe, it would keep us from so polluting our own. It would also be nice if we could garner energy from other universes, a potentially infinite supply. I've speculated that if hell really existed, we could tap it for thermal energy, but unfortunately it doesn't exist.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 03:06:37 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It would be nice if we could do our dangerous manufacturing in a different universe, it would keep us from so polluting our own. It would also be nice if we could garner energy from other universes, a potentially infinite supply. I've speculated that if hell really existed, we could tap it for thermal energy, but unfortunately it doesn't exist.
My thinking goes that that would be about like using a heat pump to control the temperature of a building.

I.e. not very efficient, especially in the long-term.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: trdsf on January 16, 2018, 04:22:15 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It would be nice if we could do our dangerous manufacturing in a different universe, it would keep us from so polluting our own. It would also be nice if we could garner energy from other universes, a potentially infinite supply. I've speculated that if hell really existed, we could tap it for thermal energy, but unfortunately it doesn't exist.
See Asimov's The Gods Themselves: using the structural differences between our universe and a neighboring one as a power generator.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: GSOgymrat on January 16, 2018, 04:22:51 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It would also be nice if we could garner energy from other universes, a potentially infinite supply. I've speculated that if hell really existed, we could tap it for thermal energy, but unfortunately it doesn't exist.

I'm not so sure about drawing vast amounts of energy from other universes. As a child, I always built my secret subterranean lair inside an active volcano so I would have limitless thermal energy for the death ray, spacejet and zoo of genetically engineered man-beasts. Every time something would go horribly, horribly wrong.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 04:35:08 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'm not so sure about drawing vast amounts of energy from other universes. As a child, I always built my secret subterranean lair inside an active volcano so I would have limitless thermal energy for the death ray, spacejet and zoo of genetically engineered man-beasts. Every time something would go horribly, horribly wrong.
I built mine deep underground in the Antarctic so people would leave me alone.

It must have worked. Nobody has found any bases there.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 16, 2018, 06:56:16 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'm not so sure about drawing vast amounts of energy from other universes. As a child, I always built my secret subterranean lair inside an active volcano so I would have limitless thermal energy for the death ray, spacejet and zoo of genetically engineered man-beasts. Every time something would go horribly, horribly wrong.

Yes, moderns don't have any mythology ;-)  Our gods are mad scientists or magic wielding neuro-surgeons ;-))
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 16, 2018, 06:57:04 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I built mine deep underground in the Antarctic so people would leave me alone.

It must have worked. Nobody has found any bases there.

Per the sequel to Iron Sky, Hitler lives under the South Pole.  So are you Hitler?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 06:59:47 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Per the sequel to Iron Sky, Hitler lives under the South Pole.  So are you Hitler?
It's complicated. I actually had multiple characters who represented different aspects of myself, one of them being an important figure in the eeeeevil organisation and the other being one of the protagonists infiltrating the base.

So if we split the difference I guess I'm slightly less than 50% Hitler? 98 Proof Fuhrer Ale.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 16, 2018, 07:03:23 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It's complicated. I actually had multiple characters who represented different aspects of myself, one of them being an important figure in the eeeeevil organisation and the other being one of the protagonists infiltrating the base.

So if we split the difference I guess I'm slightly less than 50% Hitler? 98 Proof Fuhrer Ale.

Did you see any of Iron Sky or the sequels?  Sarah Palin as POTUS.  Yes, all fiction, including Vulcans and Klingons, are just projections of subordinate parts of our archetypical personalities.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 07:10:38 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Yes, all fiction, including Vulcans and Klingons, are just projections of subordinate parts of our archetypical personalities.
Obviously. Any character written by a person will only say things, take actions, and express sentiments the writer is also capable of saying, taking, and expressing.

Even when you base a character off "another" person, you're actually basing them off your image of that person, and your image of that person uses the mirror neuron system of your brain, which means that you're only writing that person to the extent that you are capable of actually being that person yourself.

...Sorry, maybe that was a little confusing?

Anyway, that's not to say people actually ever do act like their characters. Just that they can't write a character who doesn't exist inside them, even if it's a part of them they never let out.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Blackleaf on January 16, 2018, 09:10:50 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It would be nice if we could do our dangerous manufacturing in a different universe, it would keep us from so polluting our own. It would also be nice if we could garner energy from other universes, a potentially infinite supply. I've speculated that if hell really existed, we could tap it for thermal energy, but unfortunately it doesn't exist.

Hey. Maybe that's why God created Hell, so he could feed off of the energy of the countless souls burning in it. That would explain why he would make it so goddamn impossible to avoid it, and so impossible to escape once you're in it. A being of such incredible power would require quite a large source of energy.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: omokuroi on January 16, 2018, 09:29:54 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hey. Maybe that's why God created Hell, so he could feed off of the energy of the countless souls burning in it. That would explain why he would make it so goddamn impossible to avoid it, and so impossible to escape once you're in it. A being of such incredible power would require quite a large source of energy.
But can God create an energy source so bottomless even He can't exhaust it?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on January 18, 2018, 06:32:53 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You aren't an ancient Greek either, let alone Thales.  No, you can't explain anything ... you can assume an electron with a magnetic moment ... and that is something consistent with the Dirac equation.  But nobody understands quantum mechanics, so no, nobody understands the electron, or magnetic fields formed by electrons.  Everyone here is just like that guy with the 200+ IQ ... full of jargon, that has no real meaning.  Idiot savants, just like a talking ape would be.

I saw film of a uranium atom once.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 18, 2018, 01:11:25 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I saw film of a uranium atom once.

You saw what you were told is a uranium atom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSCX78-8-q0

Those atoms didn't take that configuration on their own.  People put them there.  Notice this shows a good view of the wave nature of particles, at least imaging them with waves.  Where one atom begins, and another one ends, is relative.  Is there such thing as a single isolated atom?  I think not.  There are points in space-time that are more atomic than others ... but empty space-time is packed with infinite virtual particles.

So yes, we can call what we see ... atoms, or call it a cheese sandwich.  We are doing the naming, the thing itself has no name.  And it isn't perceived except when someone sets up means to view it.  We have to take it on faith, that the so-called atom (which isn't un-cuttable at all) is really there when we aren't observing it.  And we understand that it changes what it is based on how we observe it.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on January 18, 2018, 03:26:32 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You saw what you were told is a uranium atom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSCX78-8-q0

Those atoms didn't take that configuration on their own.  People put them there.  Notice this shows a good view of the wave nature of particles, at least imaging them with waves.  Where one atom begins, and another one ends, is relative.  Is there such thing as a single isolated atom?  I think not.  There are points in space-time that are more atomic than others ... but empty space-time is packed with infinite virtual particles.

So yes, we can call what we see ... atoms, or call it a cheese sandwich.  We are doing the naming, the thing itself has no name.  And it isn't perceived except when someone sets up means to view it.  We have to take it on faith, that the so-called atom (which isn't un-cuttable at all) is really there when we aren't observing it.  And we understand that it changes what it is based on how we observe it.

Well, aren't we anti-matter today! LOL...
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 18, 2018, 08:51:01 PM
That is why positronic optimists quickly vanish in a flash of gamma ray pessimism.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 12:13:04 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That is why positronic optimists quickly vanish in a flash of gamma ray pessimism.

Isaac Asimov once lectured at the Student Union at University Of Maryland (drunk as a skunk it seemed).   Some ome asked him how a positronic brain worked (in apparent seriousness), and he went livid. Basically, "How the hell should *I* know, I just invented it" for a story. 

And ever since then, I truly understood the difference between science and science fiction.  I love both, but I know the difference.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:06:51 PM
Sometimes technology has to be imagined, before it can be developed.  But empirical results hold true.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 03:14:57 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Sometimes technology has to be imagined, before it can be developed.  But empirical results hold true.

Isn't that ALWAYS so?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:29:18 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Isn't that ALWAYS so?

Some people lack imagination, others lack practicality.  It takes both.  The problem is people, not technology.  And technology can't solve that problem ;-(
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 03:33:09 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Some people lack imagination, others lack practicality.  It takes both.  The problem is people, not technology.  And technology can't solve that problem ;-(

No, you were implying the development of a technology before it was imagined.  I can, though.  Can you think of one?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:34:21 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
No, you were implying the development of a technology before it was imagined.  I can, though.  Can you think of one?

Speech.  That was an example of bootstrapping.  Eek!  Sqwak!
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 27, 2018, 03:34:40 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Some people lack imagination, others lack practicality.  It takes both.  The problem is people, not technology.  And technology can't solve that problem ;-(
Well, not yet, but soon...
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:38:53 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Well, not yet, but soon...

The unbigoted Final Solution, is not a good solution.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 27, 2018, 03:42:13 PM
Learning algorithms (machine learning) may soon be able to combine imagination with practicality. May not happen during our lifetime, though.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:45:46 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Learning algorithms (machine learning) may soon be able to combine imagination with practicality. May not happen during our lifetime, though.

You are lacking in learning, but not in hopium.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 27, 2018, 03:46:39 PM
Hopium? Is that on the periodic table?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:57:25 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hopium? Is that on the periodic table?

Right next to Unobtanium ... you need both to make positronic brains.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: aitm on January 28, 2018, 09:14:52 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Write it.  Even if it's just for your own amusement.  Otherwise it'll eat your brain.

In my own writing, I'm going to have a lot of fun with the plot point that meeting humans ultimately provided actual physical evidence in favor of the aliens' creation myth... you can imagine how well that goes down among believer humans, of course.  Heh.  Heh.  Heh.

My freshman year in college I wrote a very lengthy story about a guy on LSD who found himself talking to a bird. Short version, after hours of discussion on the nature of god and gods and human frailties the bird convinces the man that while birds are constricted by evolutionary design,and are rather forced to fly to survive, humans with their large brains have over time been able to conquer gravity itself by sheer will. Thus the bird convinces the man that he can fly and promptly upon falling to his death from his dorm balcony, the bird laughs, shakes it's head..."fucking humans and their fucking ego's!"
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 28, 2018, 10:01:42 AM
I talk to birds all the time, but in bird-talk, not human-talk.  I think you are implying the hallucinator was hearing a bird speak to him in human-talk.  Just clarifying.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: aitm on January 28, 2018, 01:33:09 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I talk to birds all the time, but in bird-talk, not human-talk.

I have no doubt.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on January 28, 2018, 05:03:40 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I talk to birds all the time, but in bird-talk, not human-talk.
Is that what it sounds like?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: trdsf on January 28, 2018, 09:13:09 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
My freshman year in college I wrote a very lengthy story about a guy on LSD who found himself talking to a bird. Short version, after hours of discussion on the nature of god and gods and human frailties the bird convinces the man that while birds are constricted by evolutionary design,and are rather forced to fly to survive, humans with their large brains have over time been able to conquer gravity itself by sheer will. Thus the bird convinces the man that he can fly and promptly upon falling to his death from his dorm balcony, the bird laughs, shakes it's head..."fucking humans and their fucking ego's!"
I would read that story in Asimov's or an anthology.  :)
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: cabinetmaker on January 29, 2018, 10:52:23 AM
Why is it that people always seem to treat God as a genie that would exist solely to grant our every wish and keep us perfectly healthy?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Blackleaf on January 29, 2018, 10:57:58 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Why is it that people always seem to treat God as a genie that would exist solely to grant our every wish and keep us perfectly healthy?

I never considered God to be a genie. When I believed in him, I only considered him as a father, as the Bible describes him. But if he's a father, he's an absent father. He doesn't respond to prayers, he doesn't do anything to help (that can't easily be confused for pure coincidence), he considers all humans to be fundamentally flawed to the point of being disgusting, and he expects us to earn his love by kissing his ass and telling him how great his is. Even an absent father leaves you with half of his DNA. For God, there's no sign that he was ever there to begin with.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Mike Cl on January 29, 2018, 11:17:07 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Why is it that people always seem to treat God as a genie that would exist solely to grant our every wish and keep us perfectly healthy?
I've wondered that myself.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 29, 2018, 01:11:44 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Why is it that people always seem to treat God as a genie that would exist solely to grant our every wish and keep us perfectly healthy?

In some cultures that is called a wishing tree.

If we could be as old as Methusalah we might be lest childish.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 29, 2018, 01:16:53 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Why is it that people always seem to treat God as a genie that would exist solely to grant our every wish and keep us perfectly healthy?
It's just that people insist on wishful thinking to get their view of reality.
Quote from: Harry Emerson Fosdick

God is not a cosmic bell-boy for whom we can press a button to get things.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: trdsf on January 29, 2018, 02:22:19 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Why is it that people always seem to treat God as a genie that would exist solely to grant our every wish and keep us perfectly healthy?
You may as well if you're already engaged in magical thinking.  Once you've made the leap to believing things on no evidence, there's no limit to what else you can believe on that same basis.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: cabinetmaker on January 29, 2018, 02:36:28 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I never considered God to be a genie. When I believed in him, I only considered him as a father, as the Bible describes him. But if he's a father, he's an absent father. He doesn't respond to prayers, he doesn't do anything to help (that can't easily be confused for pure coincidence), he considers all humans to be fundamentally flawed to the point of being disgusting, and he expects us to earn his love by kissing his ass and telling him how great his is. Even an absent father leaves you with half of his DNA. For God, there's no sign that he was ever there to begin with.
Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.  We don't do that and suffer a hard life because of that and we blame God for our hard life and the hard lives of others.  God is our Father, but He is also God and as such, He is not subject to us.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Blackleaf on January 29, 2018, 02:44:36 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.  We don't do that and suffer a hard life because of that and we blame God for our hard life and the hard lives of others.  God is our Father, but He is also God and as such, He is not subject to us.

In other words, "Do as I say, not as I do." In any case, it cannot be claimed that God is a loving father when he, having all the power and foreknowledge necessary to act, watches his children suffer pointlessly. And no, free will is not an argument.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1BzP1wr234
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 29, 2018, 02:51:13 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.
Yes, but when asked who our neighbors are he proceeded to tell a story about a guy who helped another guy when no one else would. So our neighbors are those who help us when no on else will.

And Jesus commanded lots of things that Christians simply ignore - Such as Luke 14:26:

Quote
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

He also commanded that we call no one "father" except for God. No one obeys this commandment.

I could go on, but my point is that whatever Jesus commanded is irrelevant to any discussion we might have concerning either Jesus' or God's existence.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: cabinetmaker on January 29, 2018, 03:34:45 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Yes, but when asked who our neighbors are he proceeded to tell a story about a guy who helped another guy when no one else would. So our neighbors are those who help us when no on else will.
And a great many people fail as you have in their attempts to understand what Jesus was saying.  They treat it so literally that they miss that Jesus was saying that EVERYBODY is your neighbor.

Quote
And Jesus commanded lots of things that Christians simply ignore - Such as Luke 14:26:
Jesus had 12 disciples and this is what He expected of them.  Of course, this statement is also hyperbole because Jesus's whole gospel is about loving and caring.  You still love your family, you just love Jesus more to be a disciple.  Choices.

Quote
He also commanded that we call no one "father" except for God. No one obeys this commandment.
Some worse than others.

Quote
I could go on, but my point is that whatever Jesus commanded is irrelevant to any discussion we might have concerning either Jesus' or God's existence.
You can go on and on and on but that doesn't really prove anything more than that men can really screw up the most simple of things.  Jesus said love God with everything you are and love each other as you love yourself.  It really is that simple.  A bit more difficult to practice.  But men don't like that simplicity so men create religion.  As set of rules that they must follow or else.  And religion A's rules are "better" (pronounced "different") than religion B's so naturally, in the name of God, Religion B must destroy Religion B.  And vice a versa.  It has been my experience the a great many religions actually have very little to do with what God wants of us.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 29, 2018, 03:38:25 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.  We don't do that and suffer a hard life because of that and we blame God for our hard life and the hard lives of others.  God is our Father, but He is also God and as such, He is not subject to us.

A purely Christian statement.  Nothing wrong with being a Christian, but it won't fly here.  But Jesus was quoting Jewish scripture (Christian scripture didn't exist until later).  Bible literate Jews believe this too.  Usually in religious context, it means love the people who share the same religion ... this is as it is in Islam for example.  The idea that we are to love everyone, regardless of specifics ... is undoable  and self destructive.  In context, Jesus was talking about Samaritans vs Judeans.  There was an argument as to who was a genuine Jewish person (still going on today).  Not about all sentients in the multiverse.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 29, 2018, 03:41:50 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
And a great many people fail as you have in their attempts to understand what Jesus was saying.  They treat it so literally that they miss that Jesus was saying that EVERYBODY is your neighbor.
 Jesus had 12 disciples and this is what He expected of them.  Of course, this statement is also hyperbole because Jesus's whole gospel is about loving and caring.  You still love your family, you just love Jesus more to be a disciple.  Choices.
Some worse than others.
You can go on and on and on but that doesn't really prove anything more than that men can really screw up the most simple of things.  Jesus said love God with everything you are and love each other as you love yourself.  It really is that simple.  A bit more difficult to practice.  But men don't like that simplicity so men create religion.  As set of rules that they must follow or else.  And religion A's rules are "better" (pronounced "different") than religion B's so naturally, in the name of God, Religion B must destroy Religion B.  And vice a versa.  It has been my experience the a great many religions actually have very little to do with what God wants of us.

How can anyone claim to understand an old book in a foreign language, without hard study of the language and culture that made it?  Ah, we can trust scholars and theologians, right?  What about clergy and elderly laity?  Wrong!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x2SvqhfevE
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 29, 2018, 03:46:19 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Jesus's whole gospel is about loving and caring.  You still love your family, you just love Jesus more to be a disciple.
Oh, is that why he said, in Matthew 10:34-36 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

Doesn't sound exactly "loving and caring" does it?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 29, 2018, 03:47:56 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Oh, is that why he said, in Matthew 10:34-36 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

Doesn't sound exactly "loving and caring" does it?

He was just being a Palestinian ... he loves to call Gentiles .. dogs, and cares to keep his scimitar sharp for work.

The American Jesus isn't Biblical, he is usually a Gentile who will go cat fishing with his Church buddies ;-)

Hakurei thinks I am this guy ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs3dPaz9nAo
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Mike Cl on January 29, 2018, 05:14:15 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You can go on and on and on but that doesn't really prove anything more than that men can really screw up the most simple of things.  Jesus said love God with everything you are and love each other as you love yourself.  It really is that simple.  A bit more difficult to practice.  But men don't like that simplicity so men create religion.  As set of rules that they must follow or else.  And religion A's rules are "better" (pronounced "different") than religion B's so naturally, in the name of God, Religion B must destroy Religion B.  And vice a versa.  It has been my experience the a great many religions actually have very little to do with what God wants of us.
It is amazing that so many people read the bible differently.  Or how many take your Jesus to be a real person and how many say he teaches this or that, when he is actually a real person.  It turns out he is actually as real as Bugs Bunny is.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 29, 2018, 05:21:39 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
He was just being a Palestinian ... he loves to call Gentiles .. dogs, and cares to keep his scimitar sharp for work.

The American Jesus isn't Biblical, he is usually a Gentile who will go cat fishing with his Church buddies ;-)

Hakurei thinks I am this guy ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs3dPaz9nAo



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KKWE61diVI
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on January 29, 2018, 06:11:05 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hakurei thinks I am this guy ;-)
Yes, yes, you're only pretending to be retarded.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 29, 2018, 06:48:59 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Yes, yes, you're only pretending to be retarded.

I am really not progressive or retarded ... I am right here, right now.  I hate to be behind myself, and even more hate to be ahead of myself.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 29, 2018, 06:53:43 PM
Stuck in the middle with you? :)
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on January 29, 2018, 07:05:28 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Sure, sugarplum. And because of the uncertainty principle, you will soon be zipping off to god-knows-where because your position is determined so precisely.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Sal1981 on January 29, 2018, 07:25:24 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KKWE61diVI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcPRNIycl7U
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Munch on January 29, 2018, 08:49:13 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcPRNIycl7U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chEjG8Qf0zk
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 29, 2018, 08:55:35 PM
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/15/29/53/15295374f46522806f4bf6b4dd273956.jpg)
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 29, 2018, 09:41:25 PM
French fry?  Minion-flambe?  So sexually hot!
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 29, 2018, 09:44:07 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Stuck in the middle with you? :)

You anime me ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cvNXEMhJHU
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: aitm on January 29, 2018, 09:57:32 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Why is it that people always seem to treat God as a genie that would exist solely to grant our every wish and keep us perfectly healthy?

gee, I don't know...maybe because the babble says so. Ya know....that silly little verse that you all compi-believers claim is absolute unless you expect it to mean what it says? You know...that silly lil verse that says...If you pray...believing..you can tell that mountain to move and it will and nothing will be impossible for you?  Ya that one...go ahead...start with the excuses in 3..2..1..
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Hydra009 on January 29, 2018, 10:25:04 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Why is it that people always seem to treat God as a genie that would exist solely to grant our every wish and keep us perfectly healthy?
You mean like lepers calling out to be magically healed?  No idea...
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: cabinetmaker on January 30, 2018, 03:21:21 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
gee, I don't know...maybe because the babble says so. Ya know....that silly little verse that you all compi-believers claim is absolute unless you expect it to mean what it says? You know...that silly lil verse that says...If you pray...believing..you can tell that mountain to move and it will and nothing will be impossible for you?  Ya that one...go ahead...start with the excuses in 3..2..1..
Ah yes, faith the size of a mustard seed.  But that doesn't answer the question I actually asked.  Why do you think that verse discussing the frailty of human faith makes God subject to granting any and all wishes we may put to Him?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on January 30, 2018, 05:26:57 PM
Because without the assurance that God will answer these prayers like a genie, it becomes the Jug of Milk illusion. This is where praying to God has exactly the same outward effect as praying to a jug of milk.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI[/youtube]
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 30, 2018, 05:42:04 PM
This one doesn't have to be refrigerated ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSaS17CSS4c
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on January 30, 2018, 06:45:41 PM
Come now! Spoiled milk solves theodicy!
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 30, 2018, 08:58:47 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Come now! Spoiled milk solves theodicy!

But "being behind the 8 ball" gives me precious victim status ;-)
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: cabinetmaker on January 31, 2018, 09:57:41 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Because without the assurance that God will answer these prayers like a genie, it becomes the Jug of Milk illusion. This is where praying to God has exactly the same outward effect as praying to a jug of milk.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI[/youtube]
Why should God grant your team victory in the supper bowl and ignore the prayers of those routing for the other team?  Why should give you a new car and ignore those who need new shoes?  Why should God grant you the love of your life and ignore the prayers of the family whose mother just ran away?

Maybe the problem here is that people are not praying for the right things.  We pray out of our selfishness, not out of love for others.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Mike Cl on January 31, 2018, 10:41:54 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Maybe the problem here is that people are not praying for the right things.  We pray out of our selfishness, not out of love for others.
Maybe the REAL problem is that some are praying to the wrong god??!
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: trdsf on January 31, 2018, 10:55:15 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Maybe the problem here is that people are not praying for the right things.  We pray out of our selfishness, not out of love for others.
Maybe the real problem is that people are praying rather than doing.

Next time there's a hurricane in Florida, don't pray for the victims, send a couple bucks to the Red Cross or other relief organizations.  Got a friend or family member who's in a bad way and you're too far to help physically and/or too broke to help financially?  Be an ear for them to vent to and/or a shoulder to cry on.  As far as I'm concerned, "I'll pray for you" is nothing more than a socially acceptable way to say "I can't (or won't) actually help, sucks to be you."

I did notice that the tone of my prayers changed radically when I left Christianity for Wicca.  I stopped praying for things to happen or not happen; instead I prayed for understanding as to why things happened the way they did.

Eventually I noticed I still had to figure things out for myself.  Unless someone cares to suggest that my Neopagan gods did a better job of answering their voicemail than the Christian god did...
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 31, 2018, 11:28:42 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Maybe the real problem is that people are praying rather than doing.

Next time there's a hurricane in Florida, don't pray for the victims, send a couple bucks to the Red Cross or other relief organizations.  Got a friend or family member who's in a bad way and you're too far to help physically and/or too broke to help financially?  Be an ear for them to vent to and/or a shoulder to cry on.  As far as I'm concerned, "I'll pray for you" is nothing more than a socially acceptable way to say "I can't (or won't) actually help, sucks to be you."

I did notice that the tone of my prayers changed radically when I left Christianity for Wicca.  I stopped praying for things to happen or not happen; instead I prayed for understanding as to why things happened the way they did.

Eventually I noticed I still had to figure things out for myself.  Unless someone cares to suggest that my Neopagan gods did a better job of answering their voicemail than the Christian god did...

Epistle of James ... those who have faith and don't act .. are hypocrits.  The magic of prayer isn't about G-d, it is about you getting past the neuroses that are preventing you from acting.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on January 31, 2018, 12:03:38 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Why should God grant your team victory in the supper bowl and ignore the prayers of those routing for the other team?
We're not talking about these obviously mutually exclusive choices. God ignores the prayers of people to heal amputees and cure them of diseases.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Why should give you a new car and ignore those who need new shoes?
An omnipotent being should be able to grant both. I don't see the problem. The only thing that you posing this question does is diminish the power of your god.

Also, he doesn't do either.

Quote from: cabinetmaker link=topic=12278.msg1206259#msg1206259
Why should God grant you the love of your life and ignore the prayers of the family whose mother just ran away?
Again, a God that has to make these kinds of choices is one limited in resources. Not only limited in resources in an absolute sense, but limited in resources on any human level. We're able to find these mothers, and we've done it on occasion. God should be able to do at least as well.

But he doesn't do either.

Quote from: cabinetmaker link=topic=12278.msg1206259#msg1206259
Maybe the problem here is that people are not praying for the right things.  We pray out of our selfishness, not out of love for others.
He doesn't do either.

Again, the Jug of Milk illusion. "We have to trust that the Jug of Milk knows best." trdsf is right: prayer is a socially-acceptable excuse to not help someone.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: aitm on January 31, 2018, 12:30:07 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Why do you think that verse discussing the frailty of human faith makes God subject to granting any and all wishes we may put to Him?

just the annoying part where it states, "and nothing will be impossible for you" ..you know.....not hard to grasp. But pretty easy to make excuses for, and pretty common excuses they are.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 31, 2018, 01:32:28 PM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0mFJYr71Uc8/UOIlwDJqdeI/AAAAAAAAD7A/rw636LAKLgw/s1600/tumblr_lxz59xFBl41r69opoo1_500.png)
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: cabinetmaker on January 31, 2018, 01:35:45 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Maybe the real problem is that people are praying rather than doing.

Next time there's a hurricane in Florida, don't pray for the victims, send a couple bucks to the Red Cross or other relief organizations.  Got a friend or family member who's in a bad way and you're too far to help physically and/or too broke to help financially?  Be an ear for them to vent to and/or a shoulder to cry on.  As far as I'm concerned, "I'll pray for you" is nothing more than a socially acceptable way to say "I can't (or won't) actually help, sucks to be you."

I did notice that the tone of my prayers changed radically when I left Christianity for Wicca.  I stopped praying for things to happen or not happen; instead I prayed for understanding as to why things happened the way they did.

Eventually I noticed I still had to figure things out for myself.  Unless someone cares to suggest that my Neopagan gods did a better job of answering their voicemail than the Christian god did...
There is an interesting passage in Mathew dealing with sorting the sheep and the goats.  Prayer is important.  Doing is what love really is.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 31, 2018, 01:48:14 PM
Lack of cultural knowledge.  With bedouin ... they run the sheep and goats together, because they behave better in a mixed group.  Also it is the children's job ... mom and dad stay back at the tent, in the shade.  Of course with Abraham, before his first child was born, he had to do everything himself, even argue ... with G-d's angels/with G-d.  The separating of the sheep and goats is when the livestock gets back to the camp ... it is time to milk the goats and shear the sheep.  Rather like tax time.  With Jesus being the scapegoat ... you would think that the Christians would rather be numbered with the goats and not the sheep.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: trdsf on January 31, 2018, 03:27:28 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There is an interesting passage in Mathew dealing with sorting the sheep and the goats.  Prayer is important.  Doing is what love really is.
Prayer is only really important to the person doing the praying; that doesn't mean it's important in general.

Interesting thing, they've actually done research on the power of prayer, and it turns out prayer helps people in hospital recover faster... but only if they already knew someone was praying for them.  If not, zero effect.  So the most you can say for it is that it's a placebo effect -- all in the recipient's mind.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 31, 2018, 07:03:25 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Prayer is only really important to the person doing the praying; that doesn't mean it's important in general.

Interesting thing, they've actually done research on the power of prayer, and it turns out prayer helps people in hospital recover faster... but only if they already knew someone was praying for them.  If not, zero effect.  So the most you can say for it is that it's a placebo effect -- all in the recipient's mind.

There is only one thing ... in general.  The Big Bang.  Nothing else is important.  Some people would take the placebo effect, if only they could get it.  Doctor's help is rather limited.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 31, 2018, 07:12:11 PM
Here are some interesting links about the inefficacy of prayer:


Studies Show Inefficacy Of Prayer (https://ffrf.org/publications/freethought-today/item/16865-studies-show-inefficacy-of-prayer)


Statistical Inquiries into the Efficacy of Prayer (http://galton.org/essays/1870-1879/galton-1872-fortnightly-review-efficacy-prayer.html) - Francis Galton
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 31, 2018, 07:21:49 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Here are some interesting links about the inefficacy of prayer:


Studies Show Inefficacy Of Prayer (https://ffrf.org/publications/freethought-today/item/16865-studies-show-inefficacy-of-prayer)


Statistical Inquiries into the Efficacy of Prayer (http://galton.org/essays/1870-1879/galton-1872-fortnightly-review-efficacy-prayer.html) - Francis Galton

It is a placebo sometimes.  In the US go to your doctor, who is a slave of the Big Pharma and Health Insurance business.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: aitm on January 31, 2018, 08:41:12 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Why ?  Why ?  Why ?

Because the babble says too and it will be granted. Do you NOT understand the babble?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on January 31, 2018, 08:49:12 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Because the babble says too and it will be granted. Do you NOT understand the babble?



Quote from: George Bernard Shaw
No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it means what he says.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on January 31, 2018, 09:24:22 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Because the babble says too and it will be granted. Do you NOT understand the babble?

G-d does grant everything, but not what you want, or when you want.  Potentiality feeds actuality.  "What you want" isn't about your ape-like ego.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: aitm on February 01, 2018, 10:24:09 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
G-d does grant everything, but not what you want, or when you want.  Potentiality feeds actuality.  "What you want" isn't about your ape-like ego.

pish posh. TRUE believers will be granted everything they wish...god said so. So those who do NOT get what they want? Obvious is obvious.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: SGOS on February 01, 2018, 10:54:16 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
pish posh. TRUE believers will be granted everything they wish...god said so. So those who do NOT get what they want? Obvious is obvious.
It always comes around to the argument that you can't take the Bible literally, and even most fundamentalists, while claiming they do, obviously don't.  There's a problem with claiming the Bible is a perfect document inspired by God.  A perfect document should be taken literally, and a perfect God could have and should have written that way, so that all mankind could be on the same page, clearly understand it, and be able to reconcile its inconsistencies and errors with reality.  Theologians sitting around discussing it should NOT have to debate about what this or that actually means.  And they would NOT have to if it actually said what it meant.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Mike Cl on February 01, 2018, 11:40:32 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It always comes around to the argument that you can't take the Bible literally, and even most fundamentalists, while claiming they do, obviously don't.  There's a problem with claiming the Bible is a perfect document inspired by God.  A perfect document should be taken literally, and a perfect God could have and should have written that way, so that all mankind could be on the same page, clearly understand it, and be able to reconcile its inconsistencies and errors with reality.  Theologians sitting around discussing it should NOT have to debate about what this or that actually means.  And they would NOT have to if it actually said what it meant.
All of that.

And why publish it in only 2/3 languages and in one small section of the world?  Would it not be just as easy to publish worldwide and in every language humans spoke???
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: SGOS on February 01, 2018, 12:19:04 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
And why publish it in only 2/3 languages and in one small section of the world?  Would it not be just as easy to publish worldwide and in every language humans spoke???
A god could have done that, and done it all on the first try... If there was a god like the one described in the Bible.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on February 01, 2018, 05:58:47 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
A god could have done that, and done it all on the first try... If there was a god like the one described in the Bible.

As is literally described in the Bible ;-)
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: SGOS on February 01, 2018, 09:44:52 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
As is literally described in the Bible ;-)
OK, but in the context of this thread, I assumed that would be implied automatically.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on February 02, 2018, 03:28:24 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Right next to Unobtanium ... you need both to make positronic brains.

Hey, I made that hopium/unobtanian joke recently.  You owe me royalties.  I'll settle for a Dukedom...
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on February 02, 2018, 07:35:27 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hey, I made that hopium/unobtanian joke recently.  You owe me royalties.  I'll settle for a Dukedom...

Are you a big blue cat person, who voted for Obama?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: trdsf on February 02, 2018, 08:16:32 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hey, I made that hopium/unobtanian joke recently.  You owe me royalties.  I'll settle for a Dukedom...
If it's an Internet duchy, I suppose you'd have to be the Duke of URL...
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: SGOS on February 02, 2018, 09:06:54 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If it's an Internet duchy, I suppose you'd have to be the Duke of URL...
I've heard it said that puns are the highest form of humor, but my question is, "Then why do they always sound so dumb?"

Edit:  that was funny though.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: trdsf on February 02, 2018, 10:03:59 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've heard it said that puns are the highest form of humor, but my question is, "Then why do they always sound so dumb?"

Edit:  that was funny though.
Depends on who you talk to.  Some people (like me) love them, some loathe them.  I've also heard them called the lowest form of wit.  They're also one of the few forms of humor where a pained groan is an acceptable, sometimes even desired response.

In other words, the beauty of a pun is in the "Oy!" of its beholder.  :D
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: SGOS on February 02, 2018, 10:28:00 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
They're also one of the few forms of humor where a pained groan is an acceptable, sometimes even desired response.
Almost everyone understands this.  And I always take the groan as a positive response.  How did that start?  Why only with puns?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
In other words, the beauty of a pun is in the "Oy!" of its beholder.  :D
<groan>
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on February 02, 2018, 11:54:08 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If it's an Internet duchy, I suppose you'd have to be the Duke of URL...

Duke of URL?  Oh THAT is good!  I tip my hat to you Sir...
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on February 02, 2018, 11:59:15 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Are you a big blue cat person, who voted for Obama?

Yes.  Iza is a Tonky, blue.  And she IS big.  And voted for Obama as the smartest person on the podium. 
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on February 02, 2018, 12:03:12 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Depends on who you talk to.  Some people (like me) love them, some loathe them.  I've also heard them called the lowest form of wit.  They're also one of the few forms of humor where a pained groan is an acceptable, sometimes even desired response.

In other words, the beauty of a pun is in the "Oy!" of its beholder.  :D

You need to KNOW THINGS to make a good pun.  Dum De Dum people can't.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: trdsf on February 02, 2018, 12:49:28 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Almost everyone understands this.  And I always take the groan as a positive response.  How did that start?  Why only with puns?
That's... an open question.  Even I, who adore a good pun (and even moreso a bad one), found myself facepalming at a couple exchanges on the Straight Dope message board discussing that very subject (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-444489.html).

One idea is that it's a jealousy response—groaning at a pun is an adult behavior, while children are more likely to just laugh—where the hearer wishes on some level they'd thought of it first.

Another is that a pun—at least the ones that genuinely pop up on the spot and seem to strike from out of nowhere—is a sort of intellectual sneak attack, and that to laugh at it would be to admit defeat.  A groan is more of a plea of no contest, and most punsters (certainly myself) have learned to accept the groan as being a laugh that isn't a laugh.

For the record: trying to look up research on pun responses invariably means slogging through articles written by people who think they're punsters... but aren't.  Yeesh.  Note for columnists: tacking a 'p' on to every word that starts 'un-' is a) predictable, b) been done by every other columnist writing an article on puns, so therefore c) not clever.  Also, we've already heard about pun-ishment and wea-puns of mass distraction.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
<groan>
*cackle*!  Thank you!
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on February 02, 2018, 01:03:44 PM
"where the hearer wishes on some level they'd thought of it first."

I find this matches my own experience.  We see these on an electronic display board at work ... and I usually groan that I should have thought of that!
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on February 02, 2018, 01:56:25 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That's... an open question.  Even I, who adore a good pun (and even moreso a bad one), found myself facepalming at a couple exchanges on the Straight Dope message board discussing that very subject (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-444489.html).

One idea is that it's a jealousy response—groaning at a pun is an adult behavior, while children are more likely to just laugh—where the hearer wishes on some level they'd thought of it first.

Another is that a pun—at least the ones that genuinely pop up on the spot and seem to strike from out of nowhere—is a sort of intellectual sneak attack, and that to laugh at it would be to admit defeat.  A groan is more of a plea of no contest, and most punsters (certainly myself) have learned to accept the groan as being a laugh that isn't a laugh.

For the record: trying to look up research on pun responses invariably means slogging through articles written by people who think they're punsters... but aren't.  Yeesh.  Note for columnists: tacking a 'p' on to every word that starts 'un-' is a) predictable, b) been done by every other columnist writing an article on puns, so therefore c) not clever.  Also, we've already heard about pun-ishment and wea-puns of mass distraction.
*cackle*!  Thank you!

Perhaps adults love puns and groan when they seem new for the cleverness, while children enjoy them more for the joke and repeatability.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on February 02, 2018, 02:00:58 PM
They are often subject to the law of pun-intended consequences...
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on February 02, 2018, 02:03:39 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
They are often subject to the law of pun-intended consequences...

Shouldn't that be either "tended" or "unintended"?  I Shirley don't know.
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on February 02, 2018, 02:05:39 PM
I wonder if puns are easier in English than other languages, given the many words that have double (or more) meanings?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on February 02, 2018, 02:12:04 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I wonder if puns are easier in English than other languages, given the many words that have double (or more) meanings?

I suspect so.  I doubt Shakespeare could have written the same plays in French or Italian. 

I put "Not so wide as a church door, nor as deep as a well" into Google Translate to French.  Can anyone tell me if "Pas aussi large qu'une porte d'église, ni aussi profond qu'un puits" has the same ring and meaning to it?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: trdsf on February 02, 2018, 02:49:59 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I wonder if puns are easier in English than other languages, given the many words that have double (or more) meanings?
I don't know about easier in English, but they're certainly possible in other languages.  The Biblical quote, "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church" is a pun if you know Greek.

I think the reason English appears to be well suited to wordplay is because unlike most languages, nouns aren't gendered and the vast majority of case endings have been done away with, so it's easier to let meanings slip and slide.

In other languages, wordplay—or rather, syllableplay—takes on forms that simply aren't possible in English.  For example, there's a poem in Chinese called 'Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den', which in Chinese characters looks like this:

Quote
《施氏食狮史》

石室诗士施氏,嗜狮,誓食十狮。氏时时适市视狮。十时,适十狮适市。 是时,适施氏适市。氏视是十狮,恃矢势,使是十狮逝世。氏拾是十狮尸,适石室。石室湿,氏使侍拭石室。石室拭,氏始试食是十狮尸。食时,始识是十狮,实十石狮尸。试释是事。

...and its transliteration in Mandarin is:
Quote
« Shī Shì shí shī shǐ »

Shíshì shīshì Shī Shì, shì shī, shì shí shí shī. Shì shíshí shì shì shì shī. Shí shí, shì shí shī shì shì. Shì shí, shì Shī Shì shì shì. Shì shì shì shí shī, shì shǐ shì, shǐ shì shí shī shìshì. Shì shí shì shí shī shī, shì shíshì. Shíshì shī, Shì shǐ shì shì shíshì. Shíshì shì, Shì shǐ shì shí shì shí shī. Shí shí, shǐ shí shì shí shī shī, shí shí shí shī shī. Shì shì shì shì.
...which is possible because Chinese is a tonal language.  I wouldn't want to try to recite this while drunk, though.


One of my favorites is in American Sign Language, where, as I recall, touching the temple with the index finger is 'I understand'... and touching it with the pinkie is "I understand a little".
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on February 02, 2018, 02:53:52 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I don't know about easier in English, but they're certainly possible in other languages.  The Biblical quote, "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church" is a pun if you know Greek.

I think the reason English appears to be well suited to wordplay is because unlike most languages, nouns aren't gendered and the vast majority of case endings have been done away with, so it's easier to let meanings slip and slide.

In other languages, wordplay—or rather, syllableplay—takes on forms that simply aren't possible in English.  For example, there's a poem in Chinese called 'Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den', which in Chinese characters looks like this:

...and its transliteration in Mandarin is:...which is possible because Chinese is a tonal language.  I wouldn't want to try to recite this while drunk, though.


One of my favorites is in American Sign Language, where, as I recall, touching the temple with the index finger is 'I understand'... and touching it with the pinkie is "I understand a little".

I don't get the Chinese part at all, but I understood the sign language one immediately!  LOL!
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: trdsf on February 02, 2018, 03:56:52 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I don't get the Chinese part at all, but I understood the sign language one immediately!  LOL!
The Chinese one, all those characters are pronounced 'shi', differing only in tone.  It's perfectly comprehensible when written down, but virtually impossible to say and be understood.  I was putting it out there as an example of linguistic play that's available in other languages but not in English; I suppose the closest we have is "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo)"
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on February 02, 2018, 04:27:58 PM
Hey, I actually found it! I was curious to see what it would sound like, and here it is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vExjnn_3ep4
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: SGOS on February 02, 2018, 04:31:01 PM
And the Chinese actually can understand that or do they get subtitles with it?
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on February 02, 2018, 04:33:07 PM
Well, to paraphrase John Heisman, when in doubt, pun[t]!
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on February 02, 2018, 06:40:45 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
And the Chinese actually can understand that or do they get subtitles with it?

Chinese tongue twister!  They are trying to remotely generate tornadoes in Kansas!
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on February 02, 2018, 06:46:49 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I suspect so.  I doubt Shakespeare could have written the same plays in French or Italian. 

I put "Not so wide as a church door, nor as deep as a well" into Google Translate to French.  Can anyone tell me if "Pas aussi large qu'une porte d'église, ni aussi profond qu'un puits" has the same ring and meaning to it?

That is cultural rather than phonetic.  The wide church door lets everyone in, even devils.  The deep well is probably an allusion to the old English practice of killing Jews by dumping them down wells.  The French being Christian, probably would understand it.  I don't think that the "wide" vs "well" alliteration matters much ... or "door" vs "deep".  The French version uses "aussi" twice and "qu'une" vs "qu'un" ... so it sounds a little less clever.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-13855238
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on February 07, 2018, 06:42:43 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That is cultural rather than phonetic.  The wide church door lets everyone in, even devils.  The deep well is probably an allusion to the old English practice of killing Jews by dumping them down wells.  The French being Christian, probably would understand it.  I don't think that the "wide" vs "well" alliteration matters much ... or "door" vs "deep".  The French version uses "aussi" twice and "qu'une" vs "qu'un" ... so it sounds a little less clever.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-13855238

I think Shakespeare was more literal (and the French are not).  LOL!
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Unbeliever on February 07, 2018, 01:26:16 PM
Many, if not most, of the words we use come directly from Shakespeare - now there was a real cunning linguist!
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Baruch on February 07, 2018, 08:51:01 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Many, if not most, of the words we use come directly from Shakespeare - now there was a real cunning linguist!

Especially the ghost writers he may have employed, including a Jewish woman ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/18/did-woman-write-shakespeares-plays-globe-stage-new-play-dark/
Title: Re: On Miracles
Post by: Cavebear on February 09, 2018, 04:35:31 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Especially the ghost writers he may have employed, including a Jewish woman ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/18/did-woman-write-shakespeares-plays-globe-stage-new-play-dark/

There was a short story about that.  Some guy who travelled to the past to study Shakespeare, only to find that kept helping, to the point where he actually wrote everything, but only because he knew the stories.  Nice time-twister.