Atheistforums.com

Humanities Section => Philosophy & Rhetoric General Discussion => Topic started by: Baruch on December 24, 2017, 11:25:51 AM

Title: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on December 24, 2017, 11:25:51 AM
Basically, people are in need to center themselves on the here and now.  But therapeutically, there are two alternatives, to focus on an imagined future, or an imagined past ... so that one can return to the here and now, in a renewed way.

Metaphorically, I am like Samurai Jack, I seek to undo the evil modernity of Aku, by returning to the past:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e51hgWIsY4M

Once upon a time, I had a WW II katana and a pre-modern tanto.  Of course Japan and samurai are always, interesting, particularly ronin.

Here is a brief intro on Judeo-Arabic literature:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/judeo-arabic-literature

The religious thought of Medieval Iberia is of great interest to me.  In particular, Bahya Ibn Pakuda.  As a window into the past (psychologically).  I am studying his major work, both in translation, and a scholarly analysis ... to compare with my own ideas of a pre-modern POV.  Medieval Iberia is a great period of history, where Christianity, Judaism and Islam came into close contact.  While I am not Sephardic, I am part Iberian and Ashkenazi.  Charlton Heston played Moses, Ben Hur and El Cid.  Movies from my childhood:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQh48R9_Zt8

I am a warrior like King David, like El Cid, or like the Emir of Córdoba, Abd al-Rahman I.

Others may prefer the many faces of The Doctor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXOBHnWiinY .. but then, Dr Who doesn't just deal with future events.

King David and El Cid, historically are just condottiere ... as was Abd al-Rahman ... the sole surviving Umayyad prince.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/La_civilització_del_califat_de_Còrdova_en_temps_d%27Abd-al-Rahman_III.jpg (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/La_civilitzaci%C3%83%C2%B3_del_califat_de_C%C3%83%C2%B2rdova_en_temps_d%27Abd-al-Rahman_III.jpg)

Yeah, those Muslims, just savages aren't they?  Well maybe at first ...
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on December 24, 2017, 12:05:16 PM
The video game version of the El Cid legend ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nncLk8w_QjY

Notice the similarity between this and the relationship between King Saul and David.

Notice also that Catalonia complicated things, then and now.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on December 26, 2017, 06:39:01 AM
I am stunned.

You are insane.

I could write pages to support the idea, but your posts here are sufficient. 
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on December 26, 2017, 09:04:14 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on December 26, 2017, 06:39:01 AM
I am stunned.

You are insane.

I could write pages to support the idea, but your posts here are sufficient.

Sorry, if you weren't serious when you asked me your question.  I have many interests, this is just one.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on December 26, 2017, 10:50:38 AM
Quote from: Baruch on December 26, 2017, 09:04:14 AM
Sorry, if you weren't serious when you asked me your question.  I have many interests, this is just one.

It wasn't quite what I expected...  I was thinking something more factual.  Let me review what you sent more carefully. 
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on December 26, 2017, 01:58:34 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on December 26, 2017, 10:50:38 AM
It wasn't quite what I expected...  I was thinking something more factual.  Let me review what you sent more carefully.

There are classicist and romantic POV.  You are clearly the first (see neoclassical art) and I am clearly the second (see romantic art).  The link on Judeo-Arabic literature is straight stuff.

I specialize in not being .... expected.  If I were Don Juan (see Hispanic legends) I would think that being unexpected is a good thing, unless I like having lots of sword fights with male relatives protecting their virgin daughters).  Also knowing which not-high window to jump out of, if caught in flagrante delicto.

Specifically, as a comment on the literature ... Jews and Muslims lived in Spain for over 400 years, and mostly got along better than either did with the Christian conquistadors.  Both were influenced by early Medieval theology and philosophy coming from Cairo and Baghdad.  Initially neo-platonism was more influential, later neo-aristotelianism was.  By translation of Arabic translations of originally Greek works, in Spain, into Latin, higher education seeped back into barbaric Europe.  Earlier, elementary education (including literacy) had been preserved initially in Ireland, and fanned out from there as the Vikings settled down.  Eventually, neo-aristotelianism died out in Islam, but triumphed in Judaism and Christianity in the West.  The Jewish and Christian East tended to stay with neo-platonism, but wasn't as academically fruitful, any more than Islam was.  Of course the real game changer was printing, which was slow to take off in Eastern Europe or in Islamic lands.

That isn't to say, that I agree with medieval theology or philosophy ... I have my own ideas, and I am using a particular writing of a particular time and place, for my own purposes.

The transition from Classical to Romantic, in the imagination of Mozart ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZbl6jQuyuM
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on December 26, 2017, 02:09:57 PM
Quote from: Baruch on December 26, 2017, 01:58:34 PM
There are classicist and romantic POV.  You are clearly the first (see neoclassical art) and I am clearly the second (see romantic art).  The link on Judeo-Arabic literature is straight stuff.

I specialize in not being .... expected.  If I were Don Juan (see Hispanic legends) I would think that being unexpected is a good thing, unless I like having lots of sword fights with male relatives protecting their virgin daughters).  Also knowing which not-high window to jump out of, if caught in flagrante delicto.

Specifically, as a comment on the literature ... Jews and Muslims lived in Spain for over 400 years, and mostly got along better than either did with the Christian conquistadors.  Both were influenced by early Medieval theology and philosophy coming from Cairo and Baghdad.  Initially neo-platonism was more influential, later neo-aristotelianism was.  By translation of Arabic translations of originally Greek works, in Spain, into Latin, higher education seeped back into barbaric Europe.  Earlier, elementary education (including literacy) had been preserved initially in Ireland, and fanned out from there as the Vikings settled down.  Eventually, neo-aristotelianism died out in Islam, but triumphed in Judaism and Christianity in the West.  The Jewish and Christian East tended to stay with neo-platonism, but wasn't as academically fruitful, any more than Islam was.  Of course the real game changer was printing, which was slow to take off in Eastern Europe or in Islamic lands.

That isn't to say, that I agree with medieval theology or philosophy ... I have my own ideas, and I am using a particular writing of a particular time and place, for my own purposes.

The transition from Classical to Romantic, in the imagination of Mozart ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZbl6jQuyuM

My concern here is that you want to "teach" me about some things I already know too well (middle eastern kingdoms), some things I do not care about  (like religious debates a la Nicea), or the general good cultural advances of the mid east (like getting geometry from the Greeks and the concept of 0 from India.

So what are you proposing to offer? 
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on December 26, 2017, 02:23:17 PM
None of that.  I know your interests.  Just what I have presented so far, only as far as you want to look.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 08:55:23 AM
Quote from: Baruch on December 26, 2017, 02:23:17 PM
None of that.  I know your interests.  Just what I have presented so far, only as far as you want to look.

I always look.  And I find you diminishing...  I sometimes (sadly) think you are less than you appear.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 09:28:15 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 08:55:23 AM
I always look.  And I find you diminishing...  I sometimes (sadly) think you are less than you appear.

You are only about one inch tall on my screen, a very small bear.  But not getting smaller, just fuzzier.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 09:42:38 AM
Quote from: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 09:28:15 AM
You are only about one inch tall on my screen, a very small bear.  But not getting smaller, just fuzzier.

You want to see me better? Gohttps://marksmews.blogspot.com/ (https://marksmews.blogspot.com/) to my cat blog, and run way down the right side to where the labels are until you find "The Big Thing" and click on THAT.  Then you will scroll down to see what few pictures I have of myself. 

And feel free to look around...  I even have a http://cavebearslair.blogspot.com/ of my own, but that is mostly gardening stuff and construction projects.  You might like it though.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 09:47:37 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 09:42:38 AM
You want to see me better? Gohttps://marksmews.blogspot.com/ (https://marksmews.blogspot.com/) to my cat blog, and run way down the right side to where the labels are until you find "The Big Thing" and click on THAT.  Then you will scroll down to see what few pictures I have of myself. 

And feel free to look around...  I even have a http://cavebearslair.blogspot.com/ of my own, but that is mostly gardening stuff and construction projects.  You might like it though.

Thanks, but anonymity is fine with me.  I expect you look like an old man.  I look like that too.  And that image would be getting fuzzier as well.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 10:06:34 AM
Quote from: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 09:47:37 AM
Thanks, but anonymity is fine with me.  I expect you look like an old man.  I look like that too.  And that image would be getting fuzzier as well.

A lot younger than you think.  When the high school athletes looked 30, I looked 15.  I'm getting my revenge now.  I expect to die healthy at 100, looking 70.  My 50th HS renunion is this Fall.  I might attend just to laugh at the bullies who are still pumping gas and look 80.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 10:09:36 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 10:06:34 AM
A lot younger than you think.  When the high school athletes looked 30, I looked 15.  I'm getting my revenge now.  I expect to die healthy at 100, looking 70.  My 50th HS renunion is this Fall.  I might attend just to laugh at the bullies who are still pumping gas and look 80.

Yes, live long enough for the Annunaki to come back?  Maybe that isn't a good thing.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 10:18:22 AM
Quote from: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 10:09:36 AM
Yes, live long enough for the Annunaki to come back?  Maybe that isn't a good thing.

That's interesting.  In the early 2000s, my similar rather weird theistic opponent was "Annakuk".  You wouldn't be him, would you? 
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 10:21:29 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 10:18:22 AM
That's interesting.  In the early 2000s, my similar rather weird theistic opponent was "Annakuk".  You wouldn't be him, would you?

No.  But your opponent was a space-alien that was of Babylonian culture?  Where did he park his space-ziggurat?
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 10:22:57 AM
Quote from: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 10:21:29 AM
No.  But your opponent was a space-alien that was of Babylonian culture?  Where did he park his space-ziggurat?

Actually, he claimed to be Innuit.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 10:30:20 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 10:22:57 AM
Actually, he claimed to be Innuit.

Space-igloo then.  Don't fly too close to the Sun!
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 10:32:45 AM
Quote from: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 10:30:20 AM
Space-igloo then.  Don't fly too close to the Sun!

I'm a tad smarter than Icarus.  And, BTW, I know the secret to escaping a labyrinth.  Do you?
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 10:34:35 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 10:32:45 AM
I'm a tad smarter than Icarus.  And, BTW, I know the secret to escaping a labyrinth.  Do you?

Only if your Minoan girlfriend gives you a ball of thread.  I have been to Knossos.  It was quite a palace for that time.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 10:37:12 AM
Quote from: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 10:34:35 AM
Only if your Minoan girlfriend gives you a ball of thread.  I have been to Knossos.  It was quite a palace for that time.

Hint.  Put your finger on either wall and never remove it as you walk.  Geometry forces success to the exit.  Didn't know that didja?
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:48:47 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 10:37:12 AM
Hint.  Put your finger on either wall and never remove it as you walk.  Geometry forces success to the exit.  Didn't know that didja?

That only works in budget labyrinths.  Magic ones aren't so easy ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRcOZZDvMv4
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 03:52:38 PM
Quote from: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:48:47 PM
That only works in budget labyrinths.  Magic ones aren't so easy ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRcOZZDvMv4

Magic is not real.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:53:56 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 03:52:38 PM
Magic is not real.

Certainly it is real.  Language is the magic of communicating to and thus and modifying people remotely.  Any technology past the Stone Age is indistinguishable from magic.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 03:57:11 PM
Quote from: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:53:56 PM
Certainly it is real.  Language is the magic of communicating to and thus and modifying people remotely.  Any technology past the Stone Age is indistinguishable from magic.

Oh please...  Language is not magic.  It is a product of the mind.  Even babies do it right off (badly, but get better) and they don't exactly have to go to EarthSea School.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 04:00:48 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 03:57:11 PM
Oh please...  Language is not magic.  It is a product of the mind.  Even babies do it right off (badly, but get better) and they don't exactly have to go to EarthSea School.

The mind, aka spirit .. is the only magic there is.  Something is only a product of the mind, if you are doing multiplication.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on February 02, 2018, 02:33:51 PM
Quote from: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 04:00:48 PM
The mind, aka spirit .. is the only magic there is.  Something is only a product of the mind, if you are doing multiplication.

It seems to me that reality exists independently of the mind.  The Earth existed quite well when there were no minds at all and it could continue without them.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on February 02, 2018, 06:59:54 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on February 02, 2018, 02:33:51 PM
It seems to me that reality exists independently of the mind.  The Earth existed quite well when there were no minds at all and it could continue without them.

There is something material.  But it doesn't have a name, except when we name it.  So Earth didn't exist without people, or planets or any other human concept.  The thing that the concept refers to, that existed.  But this doesn't work with ideas themselves ... Plato is wrong.  Justice is only an idea ... independent of humans, it has no referent.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on February 07, 2018, 06:37:32 AM
Quote from: Baruch on February 02, 2018, 06:59:54 PM
There is something material.  But it doesn't have a name, except when we name it.  So Earth didn't exist without people, or planets or any other human concept.  The thing that the concept refers to, that existed.  But this doesn't work with ideas themselves ... Plato is wrong.  Justice is only an idea ... independent of humans, it has no referent.

That's not what I said.  Earth DID exist without people.  Your premise fails after that.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on February 07, 2018, 07:37:42 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on February 07, 2018, 06:37:32 AM
That's not what I said.  Earth DID exist without people.  Your premise fails after that.

"Earth" is a human concept, with variant meanings.  Do you mean Gaia?  But justice, that is a purely ape concept.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on February 07, 2018, 07:48:41 AM
Quote from: Baruch on February 07, 2018, 07:37:42 AM
"Earth" is a human concept, with variant meanings.  Do you mean Gaia?  But justice, that is a purely ape concept.

Indeed it is.  And we named it.  Both the planet and the concept.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on February 08, 2018, 08:47:57 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on February 07, 2018, 07:48:41 AM
Indeed it is.  And we named it.  Both the planet and the concept.

I can name my cup of tea, "Fred" ... but that shouldn't imply that it is animate or human.  The concept with the name in that case, is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on February 09, 2018, 02:03:50 AM
Quote from: Baruch on February 08, 2018, 08:47:57 PM
I can name my cup of tea, "Fred" ... but that shouldn't imply that it is animate or human.  The concept with the name in that case, is ridiculous.

Welcome to Fred.  But you missed my point.  I wasn't saying that "Gaia" means anything.  My point as that we have the intelligence to think of whole spaces, domains, terrains, a planet. and a universe.  And no other creature here does.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on February 09, 2018, 07:06:29 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on February 09, 2018, 02:03:50 AM
Welcome to Fred.  But you missed my point.  I wasn't saying that "Gaia" means anything.  My point as that we have the intelligence to think of whole spaces, domains, terrains, a planet. and a universe.  And no other creature here does.

What if that is a bug, not a feature?
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on February 13, 2018, 03:08:44 AM
Quote from: Baruch on February 09, 2018, 07:06:29 AM
What if that is a bug, not a feature?

When the aliens arrive, tell them that tobacco, alcohol, and gambling is a "feature".  And then dare them to eliminate those "features" among us.  I mean, if they arrive and if they can, that wouldn't be a bad start.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on February 13, 2018, 05:36:23 AM
Getting up in the morning is a gamble.  So is taking a shower.  Are you Swedish?
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Mr.Obvious on February 13, 2018, 08:07:01 AM
I'd tell the both of you to get a room, but you already got a thread. :p
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on February 13, 2018, 08:49:45 AM
Quote from: Baruch on February 13, 2018, 05:36:23 AM
Getting up in the morning is a gamble.  So is taking a shower.  Are you Swedish?

Getting up in the morning is better than the alternatives.  Showers are optional if I'm not meeting anyone that day.  In fact, the cats like me better unshowered.  In fact, "squared", they would probably prefer I smeared myself with sardines...

Per my genetic test results I am not Swedish or anything Scandanavian.  French, German, Iberian, Welsh, Scot, and Irish, (in other words, "English") and some one from the Middle East was in my past.  Well, if you are OOA, your ancestors went through there!
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on February 13, 2018, 08:56:53 AM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on February 13, 2018, 08:07:01 AM
I'd tell the both of you to get a room, but you already got a thread. :p

I am reminded of a joke with King Kong climbing the Empire State Building and, looking in one window says "get a room".  And the people inside say "we're IN a room". 

But I only joke with Baruch when I bored and there is no one better to talk to.  So get more active!  Everyone!
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Baruch on February 13, 2018, 07:38:45 PM
I liked the joke.  More human, less bear.
Title: Re: Judeo-Arabic studies ... for Cavebear
Post by: Cavebear on February 15, 2018, 03:06:25 AM
Quote from: Baruch on February 13, 2018, 07:38:45 PM
I liked the joke.  More human, less bear.

I'm always a rational human.  Cavebear is just a handle.  I know the difference.