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Humanities Section => Philosophy & Rhetoric General Discussion => Topic started by: Baruch on December 17, 2017, 01:29:17 PM

Title: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Baruch on December 17, 2017, 01:29:17 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBA1MDmfkoY

A whole nine minutes.  Quotes Dostoevsky and Nietzsche ... there are people here who fit this profile, sad to say.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Cavebear on December 18, 2017, 07:52:09 AM
Quote from: Baruch on December 17, 2017, 01:29:17 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBA1MDmfkoY

A whole nine minutes.  Quotes Dostoevsky and Nietzsche ... there are people here who fit this profile, sad to say.

I'm sure there are many.  I just don't pay any attention to them  I suppose "Neitzsche is Peachy", but I Can't not prefer Kant.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: surreptitious57 on January 01, 2018, 11:12:21 AM
Utopia can never exist because it is by definition perfect and human beings are not perfect. Also not every
ones idea of it is the same. And human society is and has always been hierarchical whereas Utopia implies
absolute equality. The only place Utopia can actually exist is in a novel. It can not be translated into reality
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Baruch on January 01, 2018, 11:47:33 AM
Quote from: surreptitious57 on January 01, 2018, 11:12:21 AM
Utopia can never exist because it is by definition perfect and human beings are not perfect. Also not every
ones idea of it is the same. And human society is and has always been hierarchical whereas Utopia implies
absolute equality. The only place Utopia can actually exist is in a novel. It can not be translated into reality

If you try to make a fiction real, say Robinson Crusoe ... you won't enjoy being marooned on a deserted island, and Friday will demand wages.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Sal1981 on January 01, 2018, 07:47:31 PM
Given human nature, utopia is impossible to be realized.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: pr126 on January 02, 2018, 01:02:42 AM
Stephen Hicks: Nietzsche Perfectly Forecasts the Postmodernist Left


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbA9ALOrHaA
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: surreptitious57 on January 02, 2018, 03:54:12 AM
Peterson is a powerful voice in the culture wars and some one I listen to whenever I can
He talks about psychology as well as that is what he is so it is not all about social justice
I like him because he speaks with authority and argues his position in a very logical way
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Baruch on January 02, 2018, 04:36:45 AM
Quote from: surreptitious57 on January 02, 2018, 03:54:12 AM
Peterson is a powerful voice in the culture wars and some one I listen to whenever I can
He talks about psychology as well as that is what he is so it is not all about social justice
I like him because he speaks with authority and argues his position in a very logical way

On the other hand, all psychologists are in need of therapy ;-)
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: SGOS on January 02, 2018, 08:32:44 AM
I read Notes from the Underground in college.  It was a brilliant piece of writing, probably the only thing Dostoyevsky ever wrote that was worth a shit.  Of course, his other works have great notoriety, but they were always heavy wades for me with only brief glimpses into the human condition.  I finally decided to dispense with all Russian literature and search out less depressing and more uplifting shit.

Utopias are impossible.  We all know that.  The word is a synonym for any failed ideology.  Not one sci fi movie ever painted a picture of a utopia that wasn't fundamentally crazy, yet conservative or liberal, we are always advocating some type of utopia.  As suggested in the video, utopias are ideological constructs that totally misrepresent human psychology.  The invasion of Iraq was founded on a Utopian thought process, something the neocons seemed to sincerely believe, while totally disregarding human psychology.  "Remove a sadistic brutal leader and oppressed humans will automatically gravitate towards freedom, because everyone wants to be free."  Yeah, it makes total sense if you actually believe that, but the process will always fail because the premise is false, and based on deceptive semantics.

Ideologies go hand and hand with politics.  Ideologies don't go hand in hand with logic.  Ideologies require an environment like politics, where logic is neither embraced or called for to achieve an ideological utopia.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: pr126 on January 02, 2018, 09:09:09 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snfuc7y2Qdc
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Unbeliever on January 02, 2018, 02:22:31 PM
Quote from: Sal1981 on January 01, 2018, 07:47:31 PM
Given human nature, utopia is impossible to be realized.
Perfection may be impossible to achieve, but if we strive for it we can at least be pretty damned good. What's the alternative, just settle for the crap we have now?
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Baruch on January 02, 2018, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 02, 2018, 02:22:31 PM
Perfection may be impossible to achieve, but if we strive for it we can at least be pretty damned good. What's the alternative, just settle for the crap we have now?

Aren't you the apostle of apathy?  Why would you care?
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Unbeliever on January 02, 2018, 07:16:39 PM
I didn't say I care, but people do. But you still didn't answer the question. Why not strive for perfection, even though it can never be achieved?
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Baruch on January 02, 2018, 08:51:04 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 02, 2018, 07:16:39 PM
I didn't say I care, but people do. But you still didn't answer the question. Why not strive for perfection, even though it can never be achieved?

Very Nietzsche that.  What is perfection?  What is striving?  Buddhism for example would deny both.  The Heart Sutra would deny both.

Or I could say, I am perfect, just as I am now, or was, or will be.  And striving is to misunderstand becoming.

Is perfection applicable to only one circumstance, is it unchanging?  Ontological proofs of god claim that ... only applicable to G-d's circumstance, and unchanging.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Sal1981 on January 03, 2018, 01:03:46 AM
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 02, 2018, 02:22:31 PM
Perfection may be impossible to achieve, but if we strive for it we can at least be pretty damned good. What's the alternative, just settle for the crap we have now?
I didn't say we shouldn't improve. I think we should strive to better ourselves, but we can do so without having lofty goals, just be realistic is all.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Baruch on January 03, 2018, 07:13:52 AM
Quote from: Sal1981 on January 03, 2018, 01:03:46 AM
I didn't say we shouldn't improve. I think we should strive to better ourselves, but we can do so without having lofty goals, just be realistic is all.

Yeah, that song, "Dream the impossible dream ..." ... nightmare of Don Quixote.  This is why idealists tilt at windmills.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: surreptitious57 on January 03, 2018, 10:21:44 AM
One cannot attain perfection but one can strive to be as less imperfect as possible. Buddhism states that the
cause of all suffering is craving so therefore removing it reduces suffering. This is true but craving cannot be
completely discarded. For one is always craving something since that is a fundamental part of human nature
The distinction should be between what can be craved and what cannot. Between our good cravings and bad
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Mike Cl on January 03, 2018, 10:38:28 AM
Quote from: surreptitious57 on January 03, 2018, 10:21:44 AM
One cannot attain perfection but one can strive to be as less imperfect as possible. Buddhism states that the
cause of all suffering is craving so therefore removing it reduces suffering. This is true but craving cannot be
completely discarded. For one is always craving something since that is a fundamental part of human nature
The distinction should be between what can be craved and what cannot. Between our good cravings and bad
Yeah, that.

I like to call it the striving for balance between emotions and reason.  That has been my life long battle--striving for that balance.  At times one has a stronger influence on me than the other, but when both are balanced I feel the calmest and most content. 
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: SGOS on January 03, 2018, 11:35:04 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 03, 2018, 10:38:28 AM
Yeah, that.

I like to call it the striving for balance between emotions and reason.  That has been my life long battle--striving for that balance.  At times one has a stronger influence on me than the other, but when both are balanced I feel the calmest and most content. 
It was a battle for me too, but emotions always won.  Now I try to ignore them as much as possible.  My emotions are still strong enough that the last thing they need is nurturing.  So the balance seems to be in ignoring them.  That makes it about 70/30 emotion vs reason.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Mike Cl on January 03, 2018, 12:24:22 PM
Quote from: SGOS on January 03, 2018, 11:35:04 AM
It was a battle for me too, but emotions always won.  Now I try to ignore them as much as possible.  My emotions are still strong enough that the last thing they need is nurturing.  So the balance seems to be in ignoring them.  That makes it about 70/30 emotion vs reason.  :biggrin:
Yeah, I hear you.  And I basically have figured it out in that manner and percentage.  I like to tell my wife that I don't 'need' her in my life, but I very much want her there.  The 'need' part is pure emotion and it creates a dependency that become burdensome for both of us and causes resentments in each of us as well.  Wanting her in my life is not always logical, but with the aid of my emotions I can see the long term (and short term as well) benefits for us both.  Rationally, I can get along with me, myself, and I, just fine.  Emotions are fine--they have their place; as long as they stay in that place. :)
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: surreptitious57 on January 03, 2018, 12:54:57 PM
I find that I am becoming more logical and less emotional over time. I find it better to be simply an observer
of life rather than a participant in it. To being more detached from it. I find I am less opinionated than I used
to be and have no problem at all in not knowing everything. Even the things I do know I accept more quietly
I put all this down to being older and wiser and realising that life is simply a tiny blip between pre conception
and post death. Nothing in the grand scheme of things really matters. One does whatever they can with their
life and then they die. Death might be eternal but it should not be feared because it is the end of all suffering
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Unbeliever on January 03, 2018, 01:18:48 PM
Quote from: surreptitious57 on January 03, 2018, 12:54:57 PM
I find that I am becoming more logical and less emotional over time. I find it better to be simply an observer
of life rather than a participant in it. To being more detached from it. I find I am less opinionated than I used
to be and have no problem at all in not knowing everything. Even the things I do know I accept more quietly
I put all this down to being older and wiser and realising that life is simply a tiny blip between pre conception
and post death. Nothing in the grand scheme of things really matters. One does whatever they can with their
life and then they die. Death might be eternal but it should not be feared because it is the end of all suffering
Good post! I could've written that myself - it's indistinguishable from my own attitude, especially the part about being an observer of life rather than a participant.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: surreptitious57 on January 03, 2018, 02:47:10 PM
I spend nearly all my time alone so it is easy for me to be detached. I do not see it as being negative
because it provides me with physical and psychological space. My goal in life is knowledge acquisition
and learning for me is better done alone and so being alone is actually helping me to achieve my goal
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: SGOS on January 03, 2018, 02:58:36 PM
Quote from: surreptitious57 on January 03, 2018, 02:47:10 PM
I spend nearly all my time alone so it is easy for me to be detached. I do not see it as being negative
because it provides me with physical and psychological space. My goal in life is knowledge acquisition
and learning for me is better done alone and so being alone is actually helping me to achieve my goal
Me too.  I enjoy spending a lot of my time alone.  I don't ponder why that is.  It's just the way it is. 
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: surreptitious57 on January 03, 2018, 03:56:27 PM
I once read that we have less friends as we age. Nowadays people communicate way more in cyber space than
in meat space. But there are also more traditional reasons like divorce and bereavement and retirement. Every
one should ideally spend some time alone as you cannot guarantee that there will always be people in your life
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Unbeliever on January 03, 2018, 04:02:16 PM
I treasure solitude even more than most people treasure gold. I'm really only in my comfort zone when I'm alone.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Baruch on January 03, 2018, 04:06:47 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 03, 2018, 04:02:16 PM
I treasure solitude even more than most people treasure gold. I'm really only in my comfort zone when I'm alone.

That is a bit too lonely, given that you are retired?  While I am still working, there is no problem being alone.  While married, I was only alone when driving too or from work.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Baruch on January 03, 2018, 04:08:24 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 03, 2018, 12:24:22 PM
Yeah, I hear you.  And I basically have figured it out in that manner and percentage.  I like to tell my wife that I don't 'need' her in my life, but I very much want her there.  The 'need' part is pure emotion and it creates a dependency that become burdensome for both of us and causes resentments in each of us as well.  Wanting her in my life is not always logical, but with the aid of my emotions I can see the long term (and short term as well) benefits for us both.  Rationally, I can get along with me, myself, and I, just fine.  Emotions are fine--they have their place; as long as they stay in that place. :)

Co-dependency doesn't a good marriage make.  I know ;-(
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Unbeliever on January 03, 2018, 04:12:01 PM
Quote from: Baruch on January 03, 2018, 04:06:47 PM
That is a bit too lonely, given that you are retired?  While I am still working, there is no problem being alone.  While married, I was only alone when driving too or from work.
Alone doesn't mean lonely - I don't know that I've ever been lonely, even when I've been alone for months at a time.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: surreptitious57 on January 03, 2018, 04:57:47 PM
Being lonely means you do not like being alone while being alone means you
either like being alone or do not mind being alone. So they are not the same
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: SGOS on January 03, 2018, 05:09:31 PM
In my late 20s, I recognized the difference between alone and lonely.  I probably understood it before then on an intellectual level, but it was one of those insights where you understand something at a deeper level.  It was a pivotal moment in my life.  Sounds strange, probably.  But it was meaningful to me.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Baruch on January 03, 2018, 05:17:26 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 03, 2018, 04:12:01 PM
Alone doesn't mean lonely - I don't know that I've ever been lonely, even when I've been alone for months at a time.

I was lonely until I was married for a few years ;-)
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Unbeliever on January 03, 2018, 06:11:54 PM
Reminds me Kim's rendition of Oh so ronery from Team America...
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Mike Cl on January 03, 2018, 06:26:24 PM
Quote from: SGOS on January 03, 2018, 05:09:31 PM
In my late 20s, I recognized the difference between alone and lonely.  I probably understood it before then on an intellectual level, but it was one of those insights where you understand something at a deeper level.  It was a pivotal moment in my life.  Sounds strange, probably.  But it was meaningful to me.
There was a point where I realized that I was never alone, for I always had me and myself to keep me company.  And I realized that I liked that company quite well.  Yeah, that was a turning point for me.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Unbeliever on January 03, 2018, 06:55:12 PM
I suspect that people who really hate being alone don't like themselves enough to spend quality time with themselves.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: surreptitious57 on January 03, 2018, 09:05:16 PM
When you are alone for a long time you cannot really hide from yourself which might be why some do not like
it but it varies from person to person. Long as I have some mental stimulation then it is not a problem for me
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Unbeliever on January 03, 2018, 09:12:31 PM
I never get bored when I'm alone, only when I'm with boring people who only want to yak about their boring little lives. I especially despise their stories about their medical problems, but I'm always polite enough not to let them know how boring they are. Maybe that's disingenuous, but I'd rather be polite than truthful sometimes.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: surreptitious57 on January 03, 2018, 10:21:57 PM
Great minds discuss ideas / average minds discuss events / small minds discuss people
This is not strictly true but there is nonetheless a lot of truth to this very famous saying
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Baruch on January 03, 2018, 10:40:37 PM
Quote from: surreptitious57 on January 03, 2018, 10:21:57 PM
Great minds discuss ideas / average minds discuss events / small minds discuss people
This is not strictly true but there is nonetheless a lot of truth to this very famous saying

Or is that an example of human psychopathic spectrum.  people who discuss ideas, are megalomaniacs?  Or is that an example of sexism ... women typically are people people?
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 08:51:11 AM
Quote from: Sal1981 on January 03, 2018, 01:03:46 AM
I didn't say we shouldn't improve. I think we should strive to better ourselves, but we can do so without having lofty goals, just be realistic is all.

We should look to being more than what we are today...
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 09:27:29 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 08:51:11 AM
We should look to being more than what we are today...

Gaining weight is bad for most people ;-)

Yes, I am constantly improving myself, every day.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 09:45:47 AM
Quote from: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 09:27:29 AM
Gaining weight is bad for most people ;-)

Yes, I am constantly improving myself, every day.

One less glazed apple cinnomon fritter per day works well in a year...
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 09:49:21 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 09:45:47 AM
One less glazed apple cinnomon fritter per day works well in a year...

Thank your body you aren't diabetic ... or more serious dieting for you!
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 10:01:18 AM
Quote from: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 09:49:21 AM
Thank your body you aren't diabetic ... or more serious dieting for you!

That and some fresh fruit is about all the sugar I see in a day.    Its not even a challenge.  I just happen to not like things that are bad for me and like things that are good.  Can't stand fish though.  No one's purrfect.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: pr126 on January 28, 2018, 01:19:58 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXBjVau1w7Y
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Baruch on January 28, 2018, 08:03:03 AM
Yeah, the 60s are a gift that keep on giving ;-(

Fabian Socialism?  No ... just political stupidity.  Not that I think the rich and powerful are right about anything.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Cavebear on February 02, 2018, 02:30:09 PM
Quote from: Baruch on January 28, 2018, 08:03:03 AM
Yeah, the 60s are a gift that keep on giving ;-(

Fabian Socialism?  No ... just political stupidity.  Not that I think the rich and powerful are right about anything.

I think the 1% make 90% of all the decisions for 90% of the people.  I got out of that game decades ago.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Baruch on February 02, 2018, 07:00:56 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on February 02, 2018, 02:30:09 PM
I think the 1% make 90% of all the decisions for 90% of the people.  I got out of that game decades ago.

I don't like being a slave, but I like the idea of being a slave owner, even less.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Cavebear on February 07, 2018, 06:35:32 AM
Quote from: Baruch on February 02, 2018, 07:00:56 PM
I don't like being a slave, but I like the idea of being a slave owner, even less.

Those who would not be one...
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Baruch on February 07, 2018, 07:38:50 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on February 07, 2018, 06:35:32 AM
Those who would not be one...

The only way to exist, socially .... is to choose to serve.  If you choose it, it isn't slavery.  The alternative is sociopathy of the most successful predators.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Cavebear on February 07, 2018, 07:52:44 AM
Quote from: Baruch on February 07, 2018, 07:38:50 AM
The only way to exist, socially .... is to choose to serve.  If you choose it, it isn't slavery.  The alternative is sociopathy of the most successful predators.

I was sometimes the distress of Management.  I neither led nor served.  I just did what I wanted, and so well, they left me alone.  In a world of predators and prey, I was an omnivore, LOL!  And when they offerred me a grand retirement party, I just declined and locked the office door on my way out that last day.

You will NEVER understand me...
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Baruch on February 07, 2018, 12:25:03 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on February 07, 2018, 07:52:44 AM
I was sometimes the distress of Management.  I neither led nor served.  I just did what I wanted, and so well, they left me alone.  In a world of predators and prey, I was an omnivore, LOL!  And when they offerred me a grand retirement party, I just declined and locked the office door on my way out that last day.

You will NEVER understand me...

I do ... you are utterly middle class and a government apparachnik.  Not that there is anything wrong with that ... but it isn't progressive.
Title: Re: Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky and Nihilsm
Post by: Cavebear on February 09, 2018, 02:09:31 AM
Quote from: Baruch on February 07, 2018, 12:25:03 PM
I do ... you are utterly middle class and a government apparachnik.  Not that there is anything wrong with that ... but it isn't progressive.

Proof you don't...