Wondering if it is okay for me to tell a lie knowing I will not get caught. Like telling my dad someone stole the watch be gave me for my birthday instead of telling him that I actually lost it myself. Or cheating on the biology test at school as it is a subject that I really hate.
It is never OK to tell a lie.
But we all do it sometime.
Quote from: Mahmoude on November 19, 2017, 01:37:06 AM
Wondering if it is okay for me to tell a lie knowing I will not get caught. Like telling my dad someone stole the watch be gave me for my birthday instead of telling him that I actually lost it myself. Or cheating on the biology test at school as it is a subject that I really hate.
Tricky ... I would not say, never lie ... but it is easier to tell the plain truth, so you don't have to keep up the appearance of all those lies over time. You forget which lie you told each person, and if they talk to each other, they will see the inconsistency.
Unless it will cause physical harm ... don't lie. Yes, emotional harm is serious. If I were your parent, I would be prouder that you had lied, then told me the truth, than if you had never lied at all. People learn thru mistakes. But if you don't correct the mistake, no learning has happened.
On test taking, the point isn't to get a good grade. The point is to assess your progress. As long as it is a valid test, then the test is good for you. Do you not eat any vegetables?
Good luck with your dad and your school work. It is OK not to do well in every subject or like every subject. And make an intro post.
We lie all the time, even to ourselves.
Yes Billy, there is a father christmas
Sure boss, I'd love to do an extra hour after work
This pie you just learned how to bake is delicious
This is the best soft drink on the market (advertised by the company selling it)
People lose shit all the time, even your dad. Man up, it won't be that bad unless you were just simply careless, then it is a lesson for you. As for the test, it is more of a statement that you need to cheat because you can't handle biology. As long as it is not in your future to use it, meh. But cheating can become addictive if you get rewarded for it, next thing you know you will be smoking meth down by the railroad tracks......
Quote from: Mahmoude on November 19, 2017, 01:37:06 AM
Wondering if it is okay for me to tell a lie knowing I will not get caught. Like telling my dad someone stole the watch be gave me for my birthday instead of telling him that I actually lost it myself. Or cheating on the biology test at school as it is a subject that I really hate.
Lying isn't intrinsically wrong and there are certain circumstances where it's actually moral to lie - like if you're hiding a Jewish family in your attic and the Nazi authorities knock on your door and ask if you know the whereabouts of any Jews.
But as a general rule, it's not in your best interests to lie because lying can cause harm. If you lie about the safety features of a car and someone buys it and the airbag doesn't deploy, you're a party to that outcome. In general, lying hurts societies because it erodes the trust between people that's necessary for so much of daily life, hence why it's nearly universally discouraged.
Well, according to the Holy Book of Unbelief (Red Letter Edition), chapter 352, verse 41b, "Thou shalt not weareth socks on thine feet, whether they art white or black, woolen or any other fabric, at the same time as thine sandals. Else thy be cast out of the skeptic order, for ever and ever. AMEN."
Of course, socks with sandals are a combination that only liars would use, so this verse is clearly metaphorical.
Quote from: Blackleaf on November 19, 2017, 12:44:58 PM
Well, according to the Holy Book of Unbelief (Red Letter Edition), chapter 352, verse 41b, "Thou shalt not weareth socks on thine feet, whether they art white or black, woolen or any other fabric, at the same time as thine sandals. Else thy be cast out of the skeptic order, for ever and ever. AMEN."
Of course, socks with sandals are a combination that only liars would use, so this verse is clearly metaphorical.
Haha ... in Fall and Spring, when it is too cold to wear sandals without socks, but too warm to wear full shoes, I do wear socks with sandals ... and I am not lying. Heretic yes, liar no.
Quote from: pr126 on November 19, 2017, 06:00:10 AM
It is never OK to tell a lie.
But we all do it sometime.
Why is it never okay? I mean if it does not hurt anyone, why shouldn't it be okay? The only one who knows is me and it does not bother me at all.
Quote from: Baruch on November 19, 2017, 06:26:51 AM
Tricky ... I would not say, never lie ... but it is easier to tell the plain truth, so you don't have to keep up the appearance of all those lies over time. You forget which lie you told each person, and if they talk to each other, they will see the inconsistency.
Unless it will cause physical harm ... don't lie. Yes, emotional harm is serious. If I were your parent, I would be prouder that you had lied, then told me the truth, than if you had never lied at all. People learn thru mistakes. But if you don't correct the mistake, no learning has happened.
On test taking, the point isn't to get a good grade. The point is to assess your progress. As long as it is a valid test, then the test is good for you. Do you not eat any vegetables?
Good luck with your dad and your school work. It is OK not to do well in every subject or like every subject. And make an intro post.
He would not know that I have lied and I do not feel bad about it. How is it going to hurt him if he does not know? As for the test, this is the only time I am taking Biology and I honestly hate both the material and the teacher. I will never use this subject for the rest of my life as I cannot possibly have any use for geometry for the rest of my life and I suffered through a whole year with geometry.
Quote from: Munch on November 19, 2017, 07:21:10 AM
We lie all the time, even to ourselves.
Yes Billy, there is a father christmas
Sure boss, I'd love to do an extra hour after work
This pie you just learned how to bake is delicious
This is the best soft drink on the market (advertised by the company selling it)
I guess I would call these unintentional and fantasy lies! How about intentionally lying and not feeling bad about it? I mean my dad will never know. Just like my friend who rear ended a car in the parking lot. His car got damaged too. He told his mom that someone had hit his car in the parking lot. Insurance paid for it and all is good!
Quote from: aitm on November 19, 2017, 09:32:36 AM
People lose shit all the time, even your dad. Man up, it won't be that bad unless you were just simply careless, then it is a lesson for you. As for the test, it is more of a statement that you need to cheat because you can't handle biology. As long as it is not in your future to use it, meh. But cheating can become addictive if you get rewarded for it, next thing you know you will be smoking meth down by the railroad tracks......
So it is okay to cheat sometimes so long as it does not become a habit. Thanks and I will keep that in mind.
Quote from: Hydra009 on November 19, 2017, 12:25:10 PM
Lying isn't intrinsically wrong and there are certain circumstances where it's actually moral to lie - like if you're hiding a Jewish family in your attic and the Nazi authorities knock on your door and ask if you know the whereabouts of any Jews.
But as a general rule, it's not in your best interests to lie because lying can cause harm. If you lie about the safety features of a car and someone buys it and the airbag doesn't deploy, you're a party to that outcome. In general, lying hurts societies because it erodes the trust between people that's necessary for so much of daily life, hence why it's nearly universally discouraged.
I like your response. But I know and I know I am the only one who knows the lie. And I do not intend to make a habit of it as then I will lose track lol! Just lie once in a while to get myself out of a situation or even better not to fall into a bad situation. I really mean this should be okay!
Quote from: Blackleaf on November 19, 2017, 12:44:58 PM
Well, according to the Holy Book of Unbelief (Red Letter Edition), chapter 352, verse 41b, "Thou shalt not weareth socks on thine feet, whether they art white or black, woolen or any other fabric, at the same time as thine sandals. Else thy be cast out of the skeptic order, for ever and ever. AMEN."
Of course, socks with sandals are a combination that only liars would use, so this verse is clearly metaphorical.
Lol thanks for sharing the metaphysical aspects of this.
Quote from: Mahmoude on November 20, 2017, 10:52:11 AM
I like your response. But I know and I know I am the only one who knows the lie. And I do not intend to make a habit of it as then I will lose track lol! Just lie once in a while to get myself out of a situation or even better not to fall into a bad situation. I really mean this should be okay!
In our culture there are black lies and white lies (sorry for the color coding, it is opposite in E Asia). Black lies cause harm, white lies do not.
Then again there are lies, damn lies and statistics. If you sink to the bottom of humanity, expect to make a living as a statistician ;-)
What? Still no intro? No likes from me until you meet the minimum requirements.
Quote from: Mahmoude on November 19, 2017, 01:37:06 AM
Wondering if it is okay for me to tell a lie knowing I will not get caught. Like telling my dad someone stole the watch be gave me for my birthday instead of telling him that I actually lost it myself. Or cheating on the biology test at school as it is a subject that I really hate.
That isn't an atheist matter. Why do you connect atheism with lying?
Quote from: Cavebear on November 26, 2017, 03:07:38 AM
That isn't an atheist matter. Why do you connect atheism with lying?
You misread. He is afraid of disappointing his family ... like coming out of the closet at gay. Not that gay or atheist are connected, though it does for some people here.
Classic scenario about this knotty problem:
Imagine you're in a Nazi-occupied area and you're keeping Jews hidden away in your house. The Gestapo, intent on rounding up all Jews, knock at your door and ask you if you know of any Jews in the area. Is it OK to lie and say no?
EDIT: Looks like Hydra beat me to it.
When is okay for a christian to lie? Same thing for everyone else: Not okay unless it's a white lie. But do Christians lie? All the fucking time.
Quote from: Atheon on November 26, 2017, 12:25:02 PM
Classic scenario about this knotty problem:
Imagine you're in a Nazi-occupied area and you're keeping Jews hidden away in your house. The Gestapo, intent on rounding up all Jews, knock at your door and ask you if you know of any Jews in the area. Is it OK to lie and say no?
EDIT: Looks like Hydra beat me to it.
In classic Hinduism, if you feel the truth, in that circumstance, you not only go to Hell, but to the bottom Hell. Who do you want to be trustworthy to ... the Jew you are hiding or be a loyal German etc.
Quote from: Baruch on November 26, 2017, 05:33:32 PM
In classic Hinduism, if you feel the truth, in that circumstance, you not only go to Hell, but to the bottom Hell. Who do you want to be trustworthy to ... the Jew you are hiding or be a loyal German etc.
Hindus often claim to be non-theistic. But you say they have a hell. Who puts them there?
Quote from: Baruch on November 26, 2017, 12:03:58 PM
You misread. He is afraid of disappointing his family ... like coming out of the closet at gay. Not that gay or atheist are connected, though it does for some people here.
It is an atheist forum. The connection seemed obvious.
Quote from: Cavebear on December 02, 2017, 04:36:05 AM
Hindus often claim to be non-theistic. But you say they have a hell. Who puts them there?
Very few Hindus are atheist. Some Buddhists also. The average Hindu or Buddhist is quite theistic, though their theism isn't Abrahamic. For the others, they have an impersonal Absolute, rather than a personal one. None of those are nihilist (that there is nothing Absolute/true). The most extreme Buddhists do get to nihilism (something the average Buddhist is accused of) but not many. It is a lot of work to become nothing at all. Usually for Hindus/Buddhists, it is karma, the fruit of your own action, in this life and former lives, that puts you there. Karma is mechanistic, not personal like Abrahamic judgement (which comes from Egypt mostly).
Yes, both Hindu and Buddhist theology has hells ... very much like Dante. Dante probably got his from parts East (Gypsies?). Most people are self righteous, and revenge oriented ... hence the misconception of an afterlife, with reward and punishment. I don't agree with most people, but am closer to the atheist position. Closer to the non-theist Hindu/Buddhist position, closer to the impersonal Absolute of Spinoza ... but not quite. I can't be that impersonal, and am not nihilist either. I find nihilism to be self contradictory. What is the meaning of nihilism?
The Hellfire & Brimstone sermons of Jonathan Edwards .. could be taken straight from the Book of the Dead, 3000 years earlier.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on November 26, 2017, 04:30:07 PM
When is okay for a christian to lie? Same thing for everyone else: Not okay unless it's a white lie. But do Christians lie? All the fucking time.
Here are some examples of Christians justifying their own lies:
Pious Lies (http://nullgod.com/index.php?topic=49.0)
So, if Christians are OK with lying, why should anyone pick on us poor atheists for occasionally telling a bit of falsehood?
Quote from: Baruch on December 02, 2017, 12:40:47 PM
Very few Hindus are atheist. Some Buddhists also. The average Hindu or Buddhist is quite theistic, though their theism isn't Abrahamic.
After decades of hearing Hindus and Buddhists INSIST they are not theistic, it is refreshing to read a true expert like yourself state that they are. Thank you, Huzzah, and Hooray!
Quote from: Cavebear on December 09, 2017, 04:25:09 AM
After decades of hearing Hindus and Buddhists INSIST they are not theistic, it is refreshing to read a true expert like yourself state that they are. Thank you, Huzzah, and Hooray!
They are not Abrahamic. Hindus are very theistic usually ... Krishna is very popular. Many Buddhists worship .... Amida Buddha. In both cases though, judgement is the thru the impersonal mechanism of karma, not thru the personal condemnation by G-d.
Quote from: Baruch on December 09, 2017, 04:37:31 AM
They are not Abrahamic. Hindus are very theistic usually ... Krishna is very popular. Many Buddhists worship .... Amida Buddha. In both cases though, judgement is the thru the impersonal mechanism of karma, not thru the personal condemnation by G-d.
I might point out that a theism is not the deity but the belief in some structure about one. As you yourself point out (and I agree), Hindus and Buddists have a structure about their supernatural beings.
Have you considered a similarity between the vague Karma and the vague Holy Ghost?
Quote from: Cavebear on December 09, 2017, 04:42:49 AM
I might point out that a theism is not the deity but the belief in some structure about one. As you yourself point out (and I agree), Hindus and Buddists have a structure about their supernatural beings.
Have you considered a similarity between the vague Karma and the vague Holy Ghost?
Interesting idea. There is a lot of borrowing from Mahayana Buddhism into Christianity. Jesus is like a typical Tibetan bodhisattva. Hence the "Jesus in India" meme has at least theological basis, if not historical. The Gospel of Mary is very Tibetan.
Quote from: Baruch on December 09, 2017, 05:12:39 AM
Interesting idea. There is a lot of borrowing from Mahayana Buddhism into Christianity. Jesus is like a typical Tibetan bodhisattva. Hence the "Jesus in India" meme has at least theological basis, if not historical. The Gospel of Mary is very Tibetan.
You may or may not be surprised to find that I consider religious ideas as transferable across populations as DNA. Indeed, they can can be easier to spread (peacefully or un) as genes.
Quote from: Cavebear on December 09, 2017, 05:19:29 AM
You may or may not be surprised to find that I consider religious ideas as transferable across populations as DNA. Indeed, they can can be easier to spread (peacefully or un) as genes.
All religions, including Islam, are in denial about that. They simply can't admit fallacy nor borrowing. Voltaire said something nasty about that.
Quote from: Baruch on December 09, 2017, 05:36:35 AM
All religions, including Islam, are in denial about that. They simply can't admit fallacy nor borrowing. Voltaire said something nasty about that.
Voltaire nasty? What a shock! Shocked I tell you, shocked.
Speaking of not admitting fallacies, how are you on that?
Quote from: Cavebear on December 09, 2017, 05:45:23 AM
Voltaire nasty? What a shock! Shocked I tell you, shocked.
Speaking of not admitting fallacies, how are you on that?
Rhetoric is a manly art, no holds barred. Like kick boxing, not like checkers.
Lying isn't acceptable unless you are in politics, where lying is rewarded.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html
Quote from: Baruch on December 02, 2017, 12:40:47 PM
Very few Hindus are atheist.
Maybe that's because they have so many more Gods (millions?) to disbelieve in than we Christian atheists...
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 14, 2017, 06:25:48 PM
Maybe that's because they have so many more Gods (millions?) to disbelieve in than we Christian atheists...
Well, former Christians are spoiled by the simplicity of their former religion. Hinduism is a modern version of the paganism from which Christianity sprang. Constantine For Dummies.
It has nothing to do with being atheist or theist.
It is you value as a person, and your personal integrity.
Of course the theists have the escape clause of praying for forgiveness, absolving them of any further responsibility or guilt. The atheist just has to suck it up and live with it.
Quote from: Feral Atheist on December 14, 2017, 09:40:26 PM
It has nothing to do with being atheist or theist.
It is you value as a person, and your personal integrity.
Of course the theists have the escape clause of praying for forgiveness, absolving them of any further responsibility or guilt. The atheist just has to suck it up and live with it.
Actually, I think theists and atheists are further apart that you realize. Theists believe in the not real even here on Earth. Atheists don't. I won't give theists even that slight "escape clause" you mention. They are just "dead wrong" (literally) and waste their only existence hoping for a new longer one.
Quote from: Cavebear on December 15, 2017, 01:32:25 AM
Actually, I think theists and atheists are further apart that you realize. Theists believe in the not real even here on Earth. Atheists don't. I won't give theists even that slight "escape clause" you mention. They are just "dead wrong" (literally) and waste their only existence hoping for a new longer one.
I think Feral Atheist is saying that Christians think they can just pray for forgiveness, and that is the end of it. In contrast, we atheists have to actually do something to right our wrongs to find forgiveness. Christians use God's forgiveness as a get out of jail free card, sometimes quite literally.
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 15, 2017, 02:13:32 AM
I think Feral Atheist is saying that Christians think they can just pray for forgiveness, and that is the end of it. In contrast, we atheists have to actually do something to right our wrongs to find forgiveness. Christians use God's forgiveness as a get out of jail free card, sometimes quite literally.
Yeah, that's got it about right. I think if theists lived life on Earth with the intensity they give to getting to heaven, we would all be much better off. But they can't.
I think most atheists really don't understand how dedicated most serious theists are about the afterlife. Nothing here matters to them except getting to heaven. And escaping hell...
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 15, 2017, 02:13:32 AM
I think Feral Atheist is saying that Christians think they can just pray for forgiveness, and that is the end of it. In contrast, we atheists have to actually do something to right our wrongs to find forgiveness. Christians use God's forgiveness as a get out of jail free card, sometimes quite literally.
That is called cheap grace. Most Christians do that, because they aren't good Christians (most people are bad at being people, but are trying to be better at it). It is clearly spelled out in the Epistle of James ... you have to have works and faith, not just faith, not just works. That last bit is what you could legitimately disagree with. I would too .. I don't think people are punished enough, or rewarded enough ... but that is my emotional problem, regarding "future" events. On the other hand, I think many former Christians are strong on the "not punished enough" part ... and that is their failing, not G-d's. If you think people should be punished, then just do it ... and expect blow back. On the other hand, if you do think people aren't rewarded enough ... then do that for sure. Just check your own sense of who merits ... at the door.
Quote from: Baruch on December 15, 2017, 05:29:25 AM
That is called cheap grace. Most Christians do that, because they aren't good Christians (most people are bad at being people, but are trying to be better at it). It is clearly spelled out in the Epistle of James ... you have to have works and faith, not just faith, not just works. That last bit is what you could legitimately disagree with. I would too .. I don't think people are punished enough, or rewarded enough ... but that is my emotional problem, regarding "future" events. On the other hand, I think many former Christians are strong on the "not punished enough" part ... and that is their failing, not G-d's. If you think people should be punished, then just do it ... and expect blow back. On the other hand, if you do think people aren't rewarded enough ... then do that for sure. Just check your own sense of who merits ... at the door.
The theists (and I'll specify Christians especially for once) tend to fail in the real world. It's BECAUSE they don't think the real world is "real", just a trial for a world to come later.
And that's why they are such a harm to our real world. They think it doesn't really matter.
I consider that sick, anti-human, and imaginary.
Quote from: Cavebear on December 18, 2017, 06:12:31 AM
The theists (and I'll specify Christians especially for once) tend to fail in the real world. It's BECAUSE they don't think the real world is "real", just a trial for a world to come later.
And that's why they are such a harm to our real world. They think it doesn't really matter.
I consider that sick, anti-human, and imaginary.
I agree for Christians who fall for that. Not all do, but many do ...
But since the so called world is a construct of the Matrix, just how real do you think reality is? Was Walter Cronkite wrong to loose faith in LBJ in 1968? LBJ was sick, anti-human and his reasons for being in Vietnam were imaginary. But I don't think of him as being particularly religious, just evil.
Quote from: Baruch on December 18, 2017, 07:02:44 AM
I agree for Christians who fall for that. Not all do, but many do ...
But since the so called world is a construct of the Matrix, just how real do you think reality is? Was Walter Cronkite wrong to loose faith in LBJ in 1968? LBJ was sick, anti-human and his reasons for being in Vietnam were imaginary. But I don't think of him as being particularly religious, just evil.
There you go again, sensible for a sentence or two and then laughably dumb after that when your real thoughts kick in...
The real world is not "The Matrix", reality exists, and life is not "a la Truman Show" or any other odd imagining you have...
Quote from: Cavebear on December 18, 2017, 07:18:32 AM
There you go again, sensible for a sentence or two and then laughably dumb after that when your real thoughts kick in...
The real world is not "The Matrix", reality exists, and life is not "a la Truman Show" or any other odd imagining you have...
Your interpretation of sensation is individual and tribal. Reality isn't what you think it is ... we actually don't know what it is, because we can't get past autonomic or even conscious prejudice. This applies in spades to politics. That is a Truman Show ... haven't you noticed that for the last 24 months?
Quote from: Feral Atheist on December 14, 2017, 09:40:26 PM
The atheist just has to suck it up and live with it.
The atheist is much like a fly in that respect...
Quote from: Unbeliever on December 22, 2017, 05:35:22 PM
The atheist is much like a fly in that respect...
Atheists walk on ceilings?!
Quote from: Baruch on December 22, 2017, 06:28:46 PM
Atheists walk on ceilings?!
(http://i.imgur.com/o5LjNb2.jpg)
Quote from: Baruch on December 18, 2017, 10:54:19 PM
Your interpretation of sensation is individual and tribal. Reality isn't what you think it is ... we actually don't know what it is, because we can't get past autonomic or even conscious prejudice. This applies in spades to politics. That is a Truman Show ... haven't you noticed that for the last 24 months?
I wasn't here 24 months ago.
Reality is more real than most philosophers like to think. Tell one of them to walk through a wall and see where that gets them.
Quote from: Mahmoude on November 19, 2017, 01:37:06 AM
Wondering if it is okay for me to tell a lie knowing I will not get caught. Like telling my dad someone stole the watch be gave me for my birthday instead of telling him that I actually lost it myself. Or cheating on the biology test at school as it is a subject that I really hate.
I don't tell lies if people can't handle the truth that is their problem.
I could never be upset with someone for being honest with me even if the truth really hurts, I don't have any time for people who cannot be honest with.
me i hate being lied to.
I am fortunate my family and friends feel the same way about the truth and appreciate my honesty.
If i had to tell my father i lost something he gave me i would be honest and say i am upset with myself for losing it.
Quote from: baronvonrort on December 23, 2017, 05:11:09 AM
I don't tell lies if people can't handle the truth that is their problem.
I could never be upset with someone for being honest with me even if the truth really hurts, I don't have any time for people who cannot be honest with.
me i hate being lied to.
I am fortunate my family and friends feel the same way about the truth and appreciate my honesty.
If i had to tell my father i lost something he gave me i would be honest and say i am upset with myself for losing it.
OK, you dress badly and you smell of old broccoli!
LOL!