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Humanities Section => Political/Government General Discussion => Topic started by: Jannabear on October 30, 2017, 02:38:12 AM

Title: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Jannabear on October 30, 2017, 02:38:12 AM
Richard Spencer is very likely coming to Cincinnati, I plan on protesting his speech, alongside a church, some UC students, and whoever else comes.
I view him as a threat to local racial minorities, LGBT people, and innocent people in general.
America's economic system is failing miserably, and its descending quickly into a mess.

The historical precedent is that if you don't oppose far right figures who cloak themselves in nationalist rhetoric and racism, they will take control of white working class communities and at the least, bring about neo conservative movements which do a lot of harm, bolster a lot of systemic, and systematic racism, and bolster neo liberal pseudo opposition, and mass support for US imperialism, which we cannot allow now that we finally have two generations who are opposing those things.

Does anyone else plan on going, or have any of you protested him or anyone similar in the past?
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Baruch on October 30, 2017, 06:37:43 AM
Quote from: Jannabear on October 30, 2017, 02:38:12 AM
Richard Spencer is very likely coming to Cincinnati, I plan on protesting his speech, alongside a church, some UC students, and whoever else comes.
I view him as a threat to local racial minorities, LGBT people, and innocent people in general.
America's economic system is failing miserably, and its descending quickly into a mess.

The historical precedent is that if you don't oppose far right figures who cloak themselves in nationalist rhetoric and racism, they will take control of white working class communities and at the least, bring about neo conservative movements which do a lot of harm, bolster a lot of systemic, and systematic racism, and bolster neo liberal pseudo opposition, and mass support for US imperialism, which we cannot allow now that we finally have two generations who are opposing those things.

Does anyone else plan on going, or have any of you protested him or anyone similar in the past?

If you go, please be careful.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Munch on October 30, 2017, 07:59:56 AM
I admire your clout, facing this kinda thing head on. Just be careful and if things turn ugly get out of there
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Hydra009 on October 30, 2017, 12:18:50 PM
Quote from: Jannabear on October 30, 2017, 02:38:12 AMThe historical precedent is that if you don't oppose far right figures who cloak themselves in nationalist rhetoric and racism, they will take control of white working class communities and at the least, bring about neo conservative movements which do a lot of harm, bolster a lot of systemic, and systematic racism, and bolster neo liberal pseudo opposition, and mass support for US imperialism, which we cannot allow now that we finally have two generations who are opposing those things.
I don't expect Alt Nazis to be much more than a flash in the pan phenomenon, but I do worry about these pathetic troglodytes exacerbating racial tensions and directly/indirectly causing more violence than they have already.

And yeah, when they encounter stiff resistance, they sometimes cancel and spare everyone from having to endure their tirades of hateful bullshit.  So good on you.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 12:55:21 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 30, 2017, 12:18:50 PM
I don't expect Alt Nazis to be much more than a flash in the pan phenomenon, but I do worry about these pathetic troglodytes exacerbating racial tensions and directly/indirectly causing more violence than they have already.

And yeah, when they encounter stiff resistance, they sometimes cancel and spare everyone from having to endure their tirades of hateful bullshit.  So good on you.

It is better to fight against nazi groups in the US now than later.  It is like weeding the garden.  Small weeds are easier to supress now than larger ones later.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Baruch on October 31, 2017, 07:02:13 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 12:55:21 AM
It is better to fight against nazi groups in the US now than later.  It is like weeding the garden.  Small weeds are easier to supress now than larger ones later.

Too late.  The US was Nazi before 1940, and resumed in 1946.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 08:45:04 AM
Quote from: Baruch on October 31, 2017, 07:02:13 AM
Too late.  The US was Nazi before 1940, and resumed in 1946.
So, you are saying we were on the wrong side?  And too dumb to realize it?
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: pr126 on October 31, 2017, 11:05:15 AM
What is the difference between Nazi, Alt-Nazi or Neo-Nazi? (National Socialist)
How does one distinguish those? What are the signs?

Or is this the wrong question?
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 11:23:30 AM
Quote from: pr126 on October 31, 2017, 11:05:15 AM
What is the difference between Nazi, Alt-Nazi or Neo-Nazi? (National Socialist)
How does one distinguish those? What are the signs?

Or is this the wrong question?

Not the wrong question.  Just that some people try to change their labels to confuse the public.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: pr126 on October 31, 2017, 11:34:29 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 11:23:30 AM
Not the wrong question.  Just that some people try to change their labels to confuse the public.

Well, a Nazi is still a Nazi no matter what pronouns people attaching to them.
I do not think there are different denominations of Nazis.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 11:40:17 AM
Quote from: pr126 on October 31, 2017, 11:34:29 AM
Well, a Nazi is still a Nazi no matter what pronouns people attaching to them.
I do not think there are different denominations of Nazis.

Bro-Hug!!!  From a safe personal distance, of course...
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Baruch on October 31, 2017, 07:55:21 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 08:45:04 AM
So, you are saying we were on the wrong side?  And too dumb to realize it?

Americans are vicious killers, since Jamestown.  Just ask the kind folk of Salem too.  What is the wrong side?  The one I am not on.  I was born here, I live and work here.  So I will defend here ... but not because of Civics 101 lies.  Perhaps, if all other things being equal, and I wasn't American or German, I might have more sympathy for the Germans ... or not.  It is hard not to be prejudiced.  There are fanatics everywhere.

But now, only Superman is on the side of Truth, Justice and the American Way.  I smiled when I learned there were comics with Superman as a Brit, or as a Soviet.  In the Soviet version, Lex Luthor was the US President.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Baruch on October 31, 2017, 08:11:10 PM
Quote from: pr126 on October 31, 2017, 11:05:15 AM
What is the difference between Nazi, Alt-Nazi or Neo-Nazi? (National Socialist)
How does one distinguish those? What are the signs?

Or is this the wrong question?

Calling someone Nazi, outside of some Germans prior to 1950 .... is rhetorical.  It is like saying "you got cooties" ... but you say "you got nazis".  Technically, an alt-Nazi would be any totalitarian during or after that period, who isn't an explicit admirer of Hitler, just of Hitler'e methods.  Outright idolizing of Hitler, post 1950 could make you a neo-Nazi.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: trdsf on November 02, 2017, 11:00:28 AM
Quote from: Jannabear on October 30, 2017, 02:38:12 AM
Does anyone else plan on going, or have any of you protested him or anyone similar in the past?
Right now we're hoping to keep him from polluting our city; Ohio State has refused to lease him speaking space, although the little turd is suing.

I think they should make as a condition of leasing him the space that he also be responsible for the cost of additional security.  That might change his mind.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Cavebear on November 04, 2017, 01:03:50 AM
I hesitate on this idea sometimes, but "freedom of speech" doesn't guarantee you a public podium paid for by others... 
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Baruch on November 04, 2017, 10:35:27 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on November 04, 2017, 01:03:50 AM
I hesitate on this idea sometimes, but "freedom of speech" doesn't guarantee you a public podium paid for by others...

You are right ... this time ;-)  The question remains, who is paying, and why do they pay for this crap?
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Cavebear on November 07, 2017, 04:09:00 AM
Quote from: Baruch on November 04, 2017, 10:35:27 AM
You are right ... this time ;-)  The question remains, who is paying, and why do they pay for this crap?

Thank you, and I understand your point.  The question becomes who is paying for university operations.  I mean NOT the teachers' salaries and research costs, but the daily functioning of the campus.  It isn't entirely the State (or private school alumni) or the students's tuition and "fees".  It is partly both.

And I agree in general that one purpose of college is to be exposed to new ideas and thoughts.  But there is probably a limit in there somewhere.  Part of the college education is making choices. 

Would it be right to allow pederasts to promote their views?  Rapists?  There are always borders to consider.  So it becomes a question of how far to allow a choice of public speakers on a campus.  Socialists, OK, Communists, OK, dictators?  Violent criminals supporting violence, maybe not. 

Where is the line?  You draw it somewhere, and arguing about it is part of the college experience too.  I say let THEM argue about it and decide.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Baruch on November 07, 2017, 06:46:17 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on November 07, 2017, 04:09:00 AM
Thank you, and I understand your point.  The question becomes who is paying for university operations.  I mean NOT the teachers' salaries and research costs, but the daily functioning of the campus.  It isn't entirely the State (or private school alumni) or the students's tuition and "fees".  It is partly both.

And I agree in general that one purpose of college is to be exposed to new ideas and thoughts.  But there is probably a limit in there somewhere.  Part of the college education is making choices. 

Would it be right to allow pederasts to promote their views?  Rapists?  There are always borders to consider.  So it becomes a question of how far to allow a choice of public speakers on a campus.  Socialists, OK, Communists, OK, dictators?  Violent criminals supporting violence, maybe not. 

Where is the line?  You draw it somewhere, and arguing about it is part of the college experience too.  I say let THEM argue about it and decide.

But not on my dime.  So I would ban inviting any public speakers.  I am not sure I would let even the professors speak.  America is 320 million countries .. nothing in common around which to rally.  See, our Deep Throat plan worked, Comrade.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Cavebear on November 07, 2017, 07:56:52 AM
Quote from: Baruch on November 07, 2017, 06:46:17 AM
But not on my dime.  So I would ban inviting any public speakers.  I am not sure I would let even the professors speak.  America is 320 million countries .. nothing in common around which to rally.  See, our Deep Throat plan worked, Comrade.

"ANY" public speakers and professors too. huh?  Home schooling for everyone, or perhaps education is just reading in the college library.  Either way is sad and limited.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Baruch on November 07, 2017, 07:48:32 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on November 07, 2017, 07:56:52 AM
"ANY" public speakers and professors too. huh?  Home schooling for everyone, or perhaps education is just reading in the college library.  Either way is sad and limited.

I have always been pro-library.  If you can't read, expel you to China, let them feed you.  Home schooling ... because of lending libraries ... so you don't have to do all your reading in the library.  I hate public speakers ... just like politicians.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 02:15:44 AM
Quote from: Baruch on November 07, 2017, 07:48:32 PM
I have always been pro-library.  If you can't read, expel you to China, let them feed you.  Home schooling ... because of lending libraries ... so you don't have to do all your reading in the library.  I hate public speakers ... just like politicians.

I have spoken to adults who were home-schooled as children.  They generally have large gaps in their knowledge.  And most have an anti-science, anti-vaccine, anti-discussion failure. 

You miss out on learning to argue facts when it is just Mom teaching you. 
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 02:17:18 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 02:15:44 AM
I have spoken to adults who were home-schooled as children.  They generally have large gaps in their knowledge.  And most have an anti-science, anti-vaccine, anti-discussion failure. 

You miss out on learning to argue facts when it is just Mom teaching you.

You can't argue with Mom, even when you are 60.  She has an unfair advantage.  So glad your public school was one long debate club ... not.  Well mine wasn't.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 03:18:56 AM
Quote from: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 02:17:18 AM
You can't argue with Mom, even when you are 60.  She has an unfair advantage.  So glad your public school was one long debate club ... not.  Well mine wasn't.

Public schools provide a range of educational and social experiences that home schooling does not.  I have nieces who were public schooled and some home-schooled and the differences are obvious.  The public schooled ones "discuss" and the home schooled ones "declare".  Because the home schooled ones never had to engage in discussions among many.

And, BTW, I loved my Mom, but we engaged in long debates by letters most of our shared lives.  It was really a shock to her at first that I could disagree, but she got over it after a decade.  It took some effort.  LOL!
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 10:58:12 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 03:18:56 AM
Public schools provide a range of educational and social experiences that home schooling does not.  I have nieces who were public schooled and some home-schooled and the differences are obvious.  The public schooled ones "discuss" and the home schooled ones "declare".  Because the home schooled ones never had to engage in discussions among many.

And, BTW, I loved my Mom, but we engaged in long debates by letters most of our shared lives.  It was really a shock to her at first that I could disagree, but she got over it after a decade.  It took some effort.  LOL!

The original idea of public school, was NE religious, and was reasonable, particularly in the version endorsed by Jefferson.  It came from Boston, not the swamp.  Then Karl Marx endorsed it, as necessary to indoctrinate young communists.  That pretty much killed it in paranoid America.  All teachers are Nazis/Communists/Atheists.  And race mixers.  That is what pushed home schooling.  That and a few parents had the opportunity and interest to take responsibility for their own children.  Public school as it was in 1960 could be broadening.  But then there was "The Asphalt Jungle".
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 11:16:27 AM
Quote from: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 10:58:12 AM
The original idea of public school, was NE religious, and was reasonable, particularly in the version endorsed by Jefferson.  It came from Boston, not the swamp.  Then Karl Marx endorsed it, as necessary to indoctrinate young communists.  That pretty much killed it in paranoid America.  All teachers are Nazis/Communists/Atheists.  And race mixers.  That is what pushed home schooling.  That and a few parents had the opportunity and interest to take responsibility for their own children.  Public school as it was in 1960 could be broadening.  But then there was "The Asphalt Jungle".

O...M...Cod!  You have completely gone off the deep end here.  Are you OK?  Can I politely and in consideration suggest you take a break?

Public schools are an old American tradition.  Well before Karl Marx.  Public schools are not taught by "Nazis/Communists/Atheists".  Actually my concern is that there are too many teachers who would push religious views on their students if they could.  And I only say that because many do when given the freedom to. 

And teachers are "race mixers"?  Do you understand how bad that sounds?  You are suggesting either that teachers are pushing students to date members of other racial groups (a fiction due to evolutionary adjustment to sunlight) or forcibly and inappropriately mixing races in their classes (oh the ghastly horror).

So, home-schooling is for "protecting" children from "others"?  Well, I rather agree with that but from the opposite side of the fence.  I think home-schooling IS mostly to separate children of one group for another, but for negative reasons. 
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 01:53:44 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 11:16:27 AM
O...M...Cod!  You have completely gone off the deep end here.  Are you OK?  Can I politely and in consideration suggest you take a break?

Public schools are an old American tradition.  Well before Karl Marx.  Public schools are not taught by "Nazis/Communists/Atheists".  Actually my concern is that there are too many teachers who would push religious views on their students if they could.  And I only say that because many do when given the freedom to. 

And teachers are "race mixers"?  Do you understand how bad that sounds?  You are suggesting either that teachers are pushing students to date members of other racial groups (a fiction due to evolutionary adjustment to sunlight) or forcibly and inappropriately mixing races in their classes (oh the ghastly horror).

So, home-schooling is for "protecting" children from "others"?  Well, I rather agree with that but from the opposite side of the fence.  I think home-schooling IS mostly to separate children of one group for another, but for negative reasons.

Like I said, it came from New England, and then got further improved by Jefferson.

"In 1821, Boston started the first public high school in the United States. By the close of the 19th century, public secondary schools began to outnumber private ones. Over the years, Americans have been influenced by a number of European reformers; among them Pestalozzi, Herbart, and Montessori." - Wikipedia.

This came about because the Puritans turned into Unitarians by that time, so they were willing to mix in a way that wasn't conceivable in colonial times.  Remember that movie "Glory"?  That was Boston being progressive way back when.  BTW - My daughter was sent to a Montessori-type kindergarten ... after that, to public school.  The primary problem with public school there and then, was lack of funding, and stupid school boards.  It would be great, if all the kids were from university educated parents, and came from a rich neighborhood.

When I have to talk about the bad old 1970s and the "busing" era, it is necessary to not White-wash it like PC folks do.  I knew then, and now, why people were opposed to busing.  I didn't have much experience, because I lived in a White suburb, and busing was in the inner-city schools ... because of redlining school support within the inner-city.  Rich inner city folks didn't want to pay for private school, or have their kids mix with poor folk (not just colored folk).  Rich people reacted by sending their kids to private academies.  Poor people took up home-schooling for obvious reasons if they could.  Not many could, since it was now necessary for most mom's to work outside the home.  There was a reason why my parents lived in the outer suburbs ... they weren't as color blind as I am.  If you lived in an ex-urb, or a religious ghetto (Orthodox Jew in upstate NY) then you operated outside of the under-funded or biased public schools, already.  The real heyday of integrated schools was in the NE, with all the European immigrants, in the early 20th century.  Kids were taught only in English, and taught to be Americans ... their parents might never have learned English very well, and had to work in appalling conditions and live in tenements.  My Ex's Italian side fled those conditions to go West.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Cavebear on November 15, 2017, 06:28:02 AM
Quote from: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 01:53:44 PM
Like I said, it came from New England, and then got further improved by Jefferson.

"In 1821, Boston started the first public high school in the United States. By the close of the 19th century, public secondary schools began to outnumber private ones. Over the years, Americans have been influenced by a number of European reformers; among them Pestalozzi, Herbart, and Montessori." - Wikipedia.

This came about because the Puritans turned into Unitarians by that time, so they were willing to mix in a way that wasn't conceivable in colonial times.  Remember that movie "Glory"?  That was Boston being progressive way back when.  BTW - My daughter was sent to a Montessori-type kindergarten ... after that, to public school.  The primary problem with public school there and then, was lack of funding, and stupid school boards.  It would be great, if all the kids were from university educated parents, and came from a rich neighborhood.

When I have to talk about the bad old 1970s and the "busing" era, it is necessary to not White-wash it like PC folks do.  I knew then, and now, why people were opposed to busing.  I didn't have much experience, because I lived in a White suburb, and busing was in the inner-city schools ... because of redlining school support within the inner-city.  Rich inner city folks didn't want to pay for private school, or have their kids mix with poor folk (not just colored folk).  Rich people reacted by sending their kids to private academies.  Poor people took up home-schooling for obvious reasons if they could.  Not many could, since it was now necessary for most mom's to work outside the home.  There was a reason why my parents lived in the outer suburbs ... they weren't as color blind as I am.  If you lived in an ex-urb, or a religious ghetto (Orthodox Jew in upstate NY) then you operated outside of the under-funded or biased public schools, already.  The real heyday of integrated schools was in the NE, with all the European immigrants, in the early 20th century.  Kids were taught only in English, and taught to be Americans ... their parents might never have learned English very well, and had to work in appalling conditions and live in tenements.  My Ex's Italian side fled those conditions to go West.

So you are defending home-schooling by giving a good history of public-schooling?  I like that.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Baruch on November 15, 2017, 07:09:40 PM
Yes, everything was wonderful, before there were Republicans ;-)

There are good home schools and bad home schools.  Most things humans do, are bad, both public and private.  We are a failed species.  I was giving context, not advocacy.  With liberals it is ivory tower advocacy all the time.  With conservatives it is kill-the-poor advocacy all the time.  Both are failures.

So if you were a wealthy parent in 1972 ... what would you do if bussing came to your kid's public school?  I know, put on your Che t-shirt ;-)  Or put your hair in a white-afro ... to show solidarity with the Black Panthers.  A few, in Berkeley, did that.  If you were a poor parent, with a stay at home mom, what would you do?  Go socialize down at the Black barbershop?  No, you would ask the mother of your children, to forget getting a job outside the home, and make her do her parenting job.  But most couldn't do either.  You stayed in public school, for better or worse.  I was in a nice suburb, so it was for better.  My parents couldn't afford private school for me, and they still remembered FDR, even if they didn't support MLK.

What is true now, is a carry-on from that time.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Cavebear on November 18, 2017, 12:33:29 AM
Quote from: Baruch on November 15, 2017, 07:09:40 PM
Yes, everything was wonderful, before there were Republicans ;-)

There are good home schools and bad home schools.  Most things humans do, are bad, both public and private.  We are a failed species.  I was giving context, not advocacy.  With liberals it is ivory tower advocacy all the time.  With conservatives it is kill-the-poor advocacy all the time.  Both are failures.

So if you were a wealthy parent in 1972 ... what would you do if bussing came to your kid's public school?  I know, put on your Che t-shirt ;-)  Or put your hair in a white-afro ... to show solidarity with the Black Panthers.  A few, in Berkeley, did that.  If you were a poor parent, with a stay at home mom, what would you do?  Go socialize down at the Black barbershop?  No, you would ask the mother of your children, to forget getting a job outside the home, and make her do her parenting job.  But most couldn't do either.  You stayed in public school, for better or worse.  I was in a nice suburb, so it was for better.  My parents couldn't afford private school for me, and they still remembered FDR, even if they didn't support MLK.

What is true now, is a carry-on from that time.

Well, In 1972, I was in my last year of University dorm residency after having a variety of roommates from places all over the US.  In high school, I attended a fully integrated public school and never had any problem with that. 
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Baruch on November 18, 2017, 02:28:09 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on November 18, 2017, 12:33:29 AM
Well, In 1972, I was in my last year of University dorm residency after having a variety of roommates from places all over the US.  In high school, I attended a fully integrated public school and never had any problem with that.

You were sane (for a young bear) ... and not a target of Black gangs.  Of course it is any different when a White boy beats you in the hallway for your lunch money?  We had a few of those in my HS ... not in the FFA or SC set.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Cavebear on November 18, 2017, 02:58:59 AM
Quote from: Baruch on November 18, 2017, 02:28:09 AM
You were sane (for a young bear) ... and not a target of Black gangs.  Of course it is any different when a White boy beats you in the hallway for your lunch money?  We had a few of those in my HS ... not in the FFA or SC set.

No one ever got my lunch money.  I played soccer.  Soccer players are tough.  There was some weird kid in high school who kept threatening me.  He had been bullying me for a month.  I had no idea why.  One cold football game he deliberately pushed my hot chocolate cup into my face.  I broke my non-violence habit.  My first fight ever...

It took 2 adult teachers to stop me pounding his face onto the bleacher seats like a melon.  He never bothered me again.  I never even saw him again in fact.
Title: Re: I plan on protesting Richard Spencer
Post by: Baruch on November 18, 2017, 03:16:47 AM
Yeah, happy times.  My last fight was 8th grade.  I was able to stay out of trouble in HS and college.  Not that I was particularly objectionable .. Internet hadn't been invented yet ;-)